Morals On. In character. Battles are won by death or KO.
Round 1- Random Encounter (Bane off venom)
Round 2- Random Encounter (Bane on venom)
Round 3- 1 week of prep
Round 4- Which team is a bigger threat towards Batman.
Ra's Al Ghul & The Joker vs Bane & Ozymandias
bump
Round 1 goes to Ozy and Bane very easily.
2 goes to Ozy and Bane even easier.
I'm leaning towards Joker and Ras for 3 due to the Joker's proficiency with chemicals.
Ozy and Bane are definitely a bigger threat to Batman.
1. Bane & Ozymendias
2. Bane & Ozymendias
3. Ra's & Joker
4. Bane & Ozymendias
@Xanni15: Well, it wasn't a week of prep, but he completely circumvented a guy who could literally see infinitely into the future. He's a genius beyond geniuses. There's less media of him being a mastermind than Ra's, I'll admit, but it's an insult to the character to think he can't scheme with the best of them.
@Shawnbaby: What is Ozzy gona do with a week of prep?? Joker could make some chemicals or come up with some crazed scheme, Just because Ozzy is the smartest man in the world doesnt mean he is gona be a master of prep, he has hardly any prep feats , he saved the world with a ton of prep and tried and failed to kill dr manhatten thats all he has, the Joker seems to be more effecient ,and with some of his crazy gadgets and unpredictability he will be a worthy foe.
@AmazingScrewOnHead said:
@Shawnbaby: What is Ozzy gona do with a week of prep?? Joker could make some chemicals or come up with some crazed scheme, Just because Ozzy is the smartest man in the world doesnt mean he is gona be a master of prep, he has hardly any prep feats , he saved the world with a ton of prep and tried and failed to kill dr manhatten thats all he has, the Joker seems to be more effecient ,and with some of his crazy gadgets and unpredictability he will be a worthy foe.
I don't know..what do you think a Multi-Billionaire Super-Genius could do for prep....ಠ_ಠ
He's got better prep feats than anyone else here...he can certainly do better than "make some chemicals"
As I already said...Joker does not work well with others, he's the worst fighter here, has the lowest physical stats, and has the least going for him in terms of prep. He's a terrible choice for a partner for someone like Ra's al Ghul.
1. Bane & Ozymendias
2. Bane & Ozymendias
3. Ra's & Joker
4. Ra's & Joker
Team 1, all rounds - in a random encounter, Batman has rarely, if ever, bested Ra's in H2h, but has beaten Bane on and off venom. He could probably solo rounds 1 and 2.
Round 3 Joker could likely solo, given his prep feats include regularly outsmarting/outplanning Batman (and lately, the entire Bat family). Ozy is decent w/ prep, but his prep feats were derived from years upon years of interacting w/ and studying Doc Manhattan, which makes me think he doesn't have enough here to rival Joker. Bane is a bigger threat, but really his best prep feat (IMO at least) was the lead up/execution of his plan in Knightfall (which was quite legit). However, Joker's random-a** gadgets, deep experience w/ chemistry, and a sense of strategy that often beats Batman, I'd still give him the edge <----- also the reason he's more of a threat to Batman for round 4.
@Dredeuced said:
@Xanni15: Well, it wasn't a week of prep, but he completely circumvented a guy who could literally see infinitely into the future. He's a genius beyond geniuses. There's less media of him being a mastermind than Ra's, I'll admit, but it's an insult to the character to think he can't scheme with the best of them.
It was a lot longer than a week, IIRC. Plus he had every single bit of information on the guy (more than basic information would tell you). Who is he smarter than in Watchmen, everyone besides Dr. M, so I mean not really impressive, right? I'm not trying to lowball him, but his best (only?) prep feat took years, right?
@Xanni15 said:
@Dredeuced said:
@Xanni15: Well, it wasn't a week of prep, but he completely circumvented a guy who could literally see infinitely into the future. He's a genius beyond geniuses. There's less media of him being a mastermind than Ra's, I'll admit, but it's an insult to the character to think he can't scheme with the best of them.
It was a lot longer than a week, IIRC. Plus he had every single bit of information on the guy (more than basic information would tell you). Who is he smarter than in Watchmen, everyone besides Dr. M, so I mean not really impressive, right? I'm not trying to lowball him, but his best (only?) prep feat took years, right?
You know what Ozzy has done with Prep that Joker and Ra's have not? He's won.
Bane has also used his prep to achieve more than just a fleeting victory. He engineered the events that led up to his breaking of Batman's Back.
Ozymandias is the smartest man in the Watchmen universe. He found a way to trick a guy that can see the future. Give me one example of anyone on team 1 coming up with a plan anywhere near as successful. Ra's has been around for 700 years and he's never accomplished anything nearly as impressive as what Veidt did.
Not convinced? here's a checklist for you.
Villain comes up with a Master Plan, Heroes find out about Master Plan, Master Plan is Thwarted
Villain comes up with a Master Plan, Heroes find out about Master Plan, Master Plan is still Successful.
Which of these statements applies best to each the Villains here?
Unfortunately Ra's al Ghul has been poorly characterized and forgotten by many authors of the DC Comics (like Mr Freeze -.- ), but is potentially the most powerful, versatile and dangerous supervillain of Batman. However, the Joker is the most dangerous in this fight ;)
@Shawnbaby said:
You know what Ozzy has done with Prep that Joker and Ra's have not? He's won.
Nobody said Ozy didn't win, that's completely irrelavant here.
How long did his plan take? And let's not act like that one, he wasn't discovered, or two that he couldn't have been stopped. The Comedian and Rors both found out what he was up to. Dr. M allowed Ozy to win.
@Shawnbaby said:
Ozymandias is the smartest man in the Watchmen universe. He found a way to trick a guy that can see the future. Give me one example of anyone on team 1 coming up with a plan anywhere near as successful. Ra's has been around for 700 years and he's never accomplished anything nearly as impressive as what Veidt did.
You say that as if it's impressive or means anything. He's smart, nobody is claiming otherwise, but simply judging his intelligence from what has been stated (i.e. smartest man in a world) doesn't mean it applies everywhere. Yes, he tricked Manhattan nobody said he didn't, but again how long did it take for him to do that? Years, lots of time and money, not to mention the degree of familiarity and information he had on him. Ozy's plan was successful because Manhattan allowed it to be.
@Shawnbaby said:
Villain comes up with a Master Plan, Heroes find out about Master Plan, Master Plan is Thwarted
Villain comes up with a Master Plan, Heroes find out about Master Plan, Master Plan is still Successful.
Which of these statements applies best to each the Villains here?
How about this one:
Villain comes up with a plan, heroes find out about the plan, heroes allow plan to succeed.
Does that one apply to either of team 2 here?
@Xanni15 said:
@Shawnbaby said:
You know what Ozzy has done with Prep that Joker and Ra's have not? He's won.
Nobody said Ozy didn't win, that's completely irrelavant here.
How long did his plan take? And let's not act like that one, he wasn't discovered, or two that he couldn't have been stopped. The Comedian and Rors both found out what he was up to. Dr. M allowed Ozy to win.
@Shawnbaby said:
Ozymandias is the smartest man in the Watchmen universe. He found a way to trick a guy that can see the future. Give me one example of anyone on team 1 coming up with a plan anywhere near as successful. Ra's has been around for 700 years and he's never accomplished anything nearly as impressive as what Veidt did.
You say that as if it's impressive or means anything. He's smart, nobody is claiming otherwise, but simply judging his intelligence from what has been stated (i.e. smartest man in a world) doesn't mean it applies everywhere. Yes, he tricked Manhattan nobody said he didn't, but again how long did it take for him to do that? Years, lots of time and money, not to mention the degree of familiarity and information he had on him. Ozy's plan was successful because Manhattan allowed it to be.
@Shawnbaby said:
Villain comes up with a Master Plan, Heroes find out about Master Plan, Master Plan is Thwarted
Villain comes up with a Master Plan, Heroes find out about Master Plan, Master Plan is still Successful.
Which of these statements applies best to each the Villains here?
How about this one:
Villain comes up with a plan, heroes find out about the plan, heroes allow plan to succeed.
Does that one apply to either of team 2 here?
Everything I was thinking, said more eloquently. QFE
One thing you missed was the argument about Bane, which I'll field: Knightfall is, arguably, the one solid showing of Bane's tactical prowess, and at the end of the day it isn't that impressive (forcing Batman to run the gauntlet, basically...). Joker is on a whole other level when it comes to strategy - his backup plans have backup plans (if anyone else read Teen Titans #15 yesterday like I did, you undoubtedly giggled like a school girl when you saw what Joker did using Kid Flash), and add to that his knowledge of explosives and chemicals. Adding in Ra's is overkill.
@Equonox said:
@Xanni15 said:
@Shawnbaby said:
You know what Ozzy has done with Prep that Joker and Ra's have not? He's won.
Nobody said Ozy didn't win, that's completely irrelavant here.
How long did his plan take? And let's not act like that one, he wasn't discovered, or two that he couldn't have been stopped. The Comedian and Rors both found out what he was up to. Dr. M allowed Ozy to win.
@Shawnbaby said:
Ozymandias is the smartest man in the Watchmen universe. He found a way to trick a guy that can see the future. Give me one example of anyone on team 1 coming up with a plan anywhere near as successful. Ra's has been around for 700 years and he's never accomplished anything nearly as impressive as what Veidt did.
You say that as if it's impressive or means anything. He's smart, nobody is claiming otherwise, but simply judging his intelligence from what has been stated (i.e. smartest man in a world) doesn't mean it applies everywhere. Yes, he tricked Manhattan nobody said he didn't, but again how long did it take for him to do that? Years, lots of time and money, not to mention the degree of familiarity and information he had on him. Ozy's plan was successful because Manhattan allowed it to be.
@Shawnbaby said:
Villain comes up with a Master Plan, Heroes find out about Master Plan, Master Plan is Thwarted
Villain comes up with a Master Plan, Heroes find out about Master Plan, Master Plan is still Successful.
Which of these statements applies best to each the Villains here?
How about this one:
Villain comes up with a plan, heroes find out about the plan, heroes allow plan to succeed.
Does that one apply to either of team 2 here?
Everything I was thinking, said more eloquently. QFE
One thing you missed was the argument about Bane, which I'll field: Knightfall is, arguably, the one solid showing of Bane's tactical prowess, and at the end of the day it isn't that impressive (forcing Batman to run the gauntlet, basically...). Joker is on a whole other level when it comes to strategy - his backup plans have backup plans (if anyone else read Teen Titans #15 yesterday like I did, you undoubtedly giggled like a school girl when you saw what Joker did using Kid Flash), and add to that his knowledge of explosives and chemicals. Adding in Ra's is overkill.
Good addition.
@Xanni15@Equonox
Both of you have asked how Ozzy has used prep...neither of you have answered how Ra's and Joker have used prep better than Ozzy has.
You don't think it's impressive to trick someone that knows the future? Manhattan could only have stopped Ozzy after he had already succeeded and even then...he couldn't do it without destroying the peace Ozzy created. The Comedian never figured out exactly what Veidt was up to...he only figured out that Veidt was up to something big and Veidt took him out before he could uncover the whole thing. Rorschach was on the path Comedian was on and Veidt framed him for murder...taking him out of the equation. Rorschach and Nite Owl never figured it out entirely until Adrian explained everything to them...after he had already done it. They didn't "allow his plan to succeed"...it had already succeeded by the time they knew about it.
Bane used his prep to figure out who Batman was and arrange for him to be completely and utterly defeated. He accomplished more with his "one solid showing" than either Ra's or Joker ever have.
In the end it doesn't matter how crafty or ingenious your plan is...all that matters is whether or not it worked. Bane and Ozzy had plans that worked. They accomplished what they set out to do.
You speak of how it took Adrian years to pull off his trick. Ra's al Ghul has had centuries and has never even come close to accomplishing what Veidt did.
@Shawnbaby: Read Tower of Babel if you want an epic Ra's Al Ghoul feat (which not only proves he is a prep genius, but that he's a master manipulator too). Joker's prep feats are too numerous to mention here. The differences between Ozy and these 2 are 1) Ozy's ONLY prep feat took YEARS to develop and required knowing the targets inside and out - he doesn't have that luxury here and 2) Ozy's plan required Doc Manhattan's complicity, which he got. Prep aside, once the encounter occurs there is zero evidence that he has the combat ability to beat these 2, his only showing was beating up a (fat) Nite Owl and Rorschach, both are below average street-levelers as far as combat goes.
The one Bane feat you have brought to the table is: he made Batman run the gauntlet and then beat him when he was tired. The idea that this makes him a master of prep is just a joke. That's physically exhausting Batman, not outsmarting him. Ra's outsmarts and manipulates Batman on the reg, Tower of Babel being arguably the most epic example. Joker creates and executes plans that make Bats batty (oh, and btw the majority of these plans are arguably successful, assuming that at least part of the Joker's aim is mass casualty counts, which Batman can't always stop). Most recent example: spreading powdered Joker toxin in certain spots of Gotham where he knew Kid Flash would go - Kid Flash runs over areas at near lightspeed, aerosolizes said Joker toxin, effectively poisoning thousands of people. Stuff like that is incredibly brilliant, required hardly any actual prep time and only surface knowledge of his opponents. Ozy and Bane have nothing on that, and certainly can't match Ra's in a 1v1.
Before I end my post, I have a quick rant: the Watchmen is a fantastic book - the most critically acclaimed graphic novel of all time (my #2 favorite behind Kingdom Come) and an absolutely profound reflection of humanity and civilization. However, just because the story is awesome and the characters are equally awesome/deep, that does not mean that these characters would fair awesomely against most flagship DC/Marvel ppl. I've seen so many people liken Rorschach to Batman and The Question, Ozy to Lex Luthor and other geniuses, etc. It's annoying to see so many Watchmen fans do this, because it a) disregards real feat comparisons completely and b) completely misses the entire point of Watchmen. A true fan of Watchmen who can read and comprehend the story wouldn't even try to pit these characters in any battle because these characters aren't SUPERheroes. They were just average people (even Veidt, when compared to super heroes and villains from the standard books). /RANT
@Equonox said:
@Shawnbaby: Read Tower of Babel if you want an epic Ra's Al Ghoul feat (which not only proves he is a prep genius, but that he's a master manipulator too). Joker's prep feats are too numerous to mention here. The differences between Ozy and these 2 are 1) Ozy's ONLY prep feat took YEARS to develop and required knowing the targets inside and out - he doesn't have that luxury here and 2) Ozy's plan required Doc Manhattan's complicity, which he got. Prep aside, once the encounter occurs there is zero evidence that he has the combat ability to beat these 2, his only showing was beating up a (fat) Nite Owl and Rorschach, both are below average street-levelers as far as combat goes.
The one Bane feat you have brought to the table is: he made Batman run the gauntlet and then beat him when he was tired. The idea that this makes him a master of prep is just a joke. That's physically exhausting Batman, not outsmarting him. Ra's outsmarts and manipulates Batman on the reg, Tower of Babel being arguably the most epic example. Joker creates and executes plans that make Bats batty (oh, and btw the majority of these plans are arguably successful, assuming that at least part of the Joker's aim is mass casualty counts, which Batman can't always stop). Most recent example: spreading powdered Joker toxin in certain spots of Gotham where he knew Kid Flash would go - Kid Flash runs over areas at near lightspeed, aerosolizes said Joker toxin, effectively poisoning thousands of people. Stuff like that is incredibly brilliant, required hardly any actual prep time and only surface knowledge of his opponents. Ozy and Bane have nothing on that, and certainly can't match Ra's in a 1v1.
Before I end my post, I have a quick rant: the Watchmen is a fantastic book - the most critically acclaimed graphic novel of all time (my #2 favorite behind Kingdom Come) and an absolutely profound reflection of humanity and civilization. However, just because the story is awesome and the characters are equally awesome/deep, that does not mean that these characters would fair awesomely against most flagship DC/Marvel ppl. I've seen so many people liken Rorschach to Batman and The Question, Ozy to Lex Luthor and other geniuses, etc. It's annoying to see so many Watchmen fans do this, because it a) disregards real feat comparisons completely and b) completely misses the entire point of Watchmen. A true fan of Watchmen who can read and comprehend the story wouldn't even try to pit these characters in any battle because these characters aren't SUPERheroes. They were just average people (even Veidt, when compared to super heroes and villains from the standard books). /RANT
1) Stealing someone else's prep is not the same as creating your own. Ra's took plans that Batman had spent years forming to beat the Justice League. By your own judgement...a plan that takes years to enable isn't a great feat...and Ra's wasn't even the man who created the plan.
2) What was the end result of Tower of Babel? Did Ra's accomplish what he set out to do? No...he failed.
3) Bane's strategy might not have been the most complex in the world...but it worked...he broke the Bat. Something never before accomplished by Ra's or the Joker.
4) Joker's feat with Kid Flash is no better than Bane's feat with Batman. All he had to do was wait until Kid Flash ran around. That's what Kid Flash does...he's a speedster...Running around is kind of his whole deal. Again, the difference being success. Bane Succeeds...Joker Fails.
5) Veidt was fast enough to catch a bullet at point blank range. In general battle, no..Watchmen characters should not be paired up against Mainstream characters. Veidt however does have some credible feats that can be applied. Also, in terms of prep...he can easily play ball here.
6) Bane recently just destroyed Batman in a fight on Venom. Anyone saying that Ra's and the Joker can beat Bane on Venom is clearly delusional. Joker is not a fighter on par with the other three here...and on Venom Bane outclasses them all. Off Venom..Bane and Ra's would have a good fight...and Ra's might be able to win there, maybe...but Joker can not take Ozymandias.
7) Ozzy's plan only required Manhattan's complicity after the fact. He counted on Manhattan's logic to preserve the secret and keep Mankind on the path of Peace. It worked. People like to try and dodge this plain and simple fact...but pulling off his plan right in the face of a man that look into the future is exceedingly brilliant. His plan didn't involve the other Watchmen at all...they only got involved after he was forced to take out The Comedian. All of his plans regarding them he did on the fly. Faking his own Assassination attempt to throw off suspicion, Setting up Rorschach, and convincing Manhattan to go along with the deception.
8) Once again, coming up with a tricky strategy doesn't mean anything unless that strategy was successful. Veidt and Bane have a better Success record than Ra's and Joker.,
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