Raiden Vs Vergil

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RoyalSloth

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Raiden From MGR

Vergil From DMC

Battle To The Death

average gear

2 Rounds:

1) Raiden Vs Vergil

2) Raiden W/ Jetstream Sam Vs Vergil & Dante

Battle is In A Field

500 yards apart

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Parryboy

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It could go either way, but Raiden is just simply too fast, unless I'm missing something here.

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Drew_Tan

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Vergil can dash and slice pretty fast so much so that beowulf wasnt even able to see him coming. Plus vergil has his demon form if he needs it. I think vergil takes this but its really close. 6/10

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Karazyn

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@parryboy said:

It could go either way, but Raiden is just simply too fast, unless I'm missing something here.

i actually think that vergil has the speed advantage while raiden has the strength advantage

vergil moves faster than the eye of a trained human can follow all the time... he moves so fast that rain drops float in slow motion while he fights

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Mayan_Fist

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Standard gear includes Vergil's Yamato. I don't see how Raiden can defend against that.

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RegnierOfHexter

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#7  Edited By RegnierOfHexter

Vergil slays a god this day, and in character will steal raidens powers.

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nickzambuto

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Sigh

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Aenvus

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Mismatch.

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mysticmedivh

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Vergil takes this.

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DraciosV

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Raiden mostly. Yamato is sharp but Raiden hitting vergil is going to hurt, a lot. And Raiden swings much faster.

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DeathHero61

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deactivated-5d6c48b224e95

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Round 1: Vergil should win without too much difficulty, he has speed and power advantage (devil trigger, spiral swords, judgement cut, dimension slashes, regeneration). Raiden's durability is great but his body won't be able to handle Yamato's attacks. Raiden definitely has strength advantage, but I don't see how that can help him.

Round 2: Vergil and Dante win without any trouble at all.

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Dygoboy

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Vergil.

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WastelandMan

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I don't know what Vergil's feats are to comment on an outcome.

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nickzambuto

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Raiden runs up to Vergil faster than he is able to see and literally rips him in half. Vergil was just a teenager in DMC3 and his power isn't even comparable to what Dante would later achieve. His speed feats barely put him on par with Raiden, and he's outclassed in everything else by a lot.

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ClassicKnight

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Raiden runs up to Vergil faster than he is able to see and literally rips him in half. Vergil was just a teenager in DMC3 and his power isn't even comparable to what Dante would later achieve. His speed feats barely put him on par with Raiden, and he's outclassed in everything else by a lot.

He isn't outclassed by a lot. But yeah, Raiden definitely has more skill and speed hence he wins!

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EdgyEdge

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@classicknight: Ok. Can Raiden: A. Unsheathe and sheathe his sword so fast that it doesn't appear to be unsheathed at all, B. Moving so quickly in a line that the only way to find him is through the TV Trope of Slash Trails or C. Still be a challenge for their opponent EVEN AFTER EACH FIGHT? A. In game, I haven't found much proof. However, him leaving slash trails after the X slasher move thingy, I'd say in Unsheathing speed, Vergil gets the slight advantage. Slight. B. In game, I haven't seen this even happen. C. Yes, especially Vergil. Vergil, despite Dante adapting, getting stronger, and coming to terms with his demonic powers in between each fight, Vergil still holds up. Raiden, apart from Jetstream Sam, hasn't fought any of his opponents in separate fights. "But ______" I hear you asking, "Aren't Senator Armstrong's fights separate?" No. A separate fight is when the fighters fight again after the last one, but apart. Senator Armstrong, fought Raiden only once because Excelus, and the battle on Excelus, have barely anytime in between them. Then when Raiden had Sam's blade, Raiden was just beat up by Armstrong. So there are still not separate. I think I made my argument clear.

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socajunkie

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#19  Edited By socajunkie  Moderator

Depending on who you ask, Vergil is either low hypersonic, 3000x the speed of sound, 4% light speed or- big jump- FTL, so whether Raiden wins or loses depends on whichever fan calc you like the most.

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ClassicKnight

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@edgyedge: uhhh....First of all, I never mentioned anything about Raiden fighting Armstrong.

Also, this is not a gun duel, so whoever draws his weapon faster won't be the priority factor in deciding who wins. Raiden isn't a slouch and it won't take him 5 minutes to draw his sword -_-

Your 'C' argument is also pointless since this is not a continuous gauntlet.

I never said Raiden would win, but he's not getting stomped either.

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jashugan

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@edgyedge: damn, this guy replied to a year old post

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red_ruby_petal

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Just noticed this thread. Virgil and Raiden are both more than capable of blocking and slowing their perception of time in the exact same manner.

But ya know dimension cutting yamato will probably break Raiden's blade.

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#23  Edited By sirfizzwhizz

@red_ruby_petal: this is not accurate. Vergil sword been block fine by Lady's bazzoka. Tever cut threw that or Dantes default sword. The dimension cutting is a specific wind up attack as shown with Dante and Vergil using it. I doubt Vergil have time to pull it off willy nilly since Raiden high end blade mode trumps Vergils high end speed feats.

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red_ruby_petal

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#24  Edited By red_ruby_petal

@sirfizzwhizz: Compared to how Raiden made bullets look slow, Vergil has been capable of making bullets seem in place. And tell me how is blade mode faster?

Before you say its low hypersonic, just how much faster is a human compared to a snail?

Maybe Yamata may or may not have the power to break Raiden's sword. Not cutting through a rocket launcher was absolute P.I.S. Not cutting Dante's sword is pretty legit considering their swords had been related. IIRC being made by Sparda.

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sirfizzwhizz

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@red_ruby_petal: the rain feat in DMC was still slow moving. Same for quicksilver ability which is faster. The rate objects in quicksilver still moved and quicksilver is way faster than Vergil.

So by highends what we see in blade mode is easily comparable or better.

Nothing PIS about it. Show me one time the Yammato blade cuts through anything willy nilly. You cannot as many weapons and boss characters block the blade in lore and gameplay. Only time we see it cut dimensions was in two.cutscenes and both scenes showed a stance and charge time

So....

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red_ruby_petal

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#26  Edited By red_ruby_petal

@sirfizzwhizz said:

@red_ruby_petal: the rain feat in DMC was still slow moving. Same for quicksilver ability which is faster. The rate objects in quicksilver still moved and quicksilver is way faster than Vergil.

No the rain feat had them stay still, you might wanna watch that again unless you refer to the scene where he stabbed Dante. Where they actually went in combat, raindrops were legitimately still.

So by highends what we see in blade mode is easily comparable or better.

I wouldn't say better. That is only high ends and like you even said, is gameplay mechanics. You also don't like the idea of Raiden being mach 1000.

Nothing PIS about it. Show me one time the Yammato blade cuts through anything willy nilly. You cannot as many weapons and boss characters block the blade in lore and gameplay. Only time we see it cut dimensions was in two.cutscenes and both scenes showed a stance and charge time

There was that one time Dante held Yamato to slice a massive monolith from like idk, a small town away? And sliced it clean half. Alright but then I won't stand to Yamato cutting through anything though its innate ability to cut through pretty much any fictional element kinda says enough that it does cut quite a bit. Actually Raiden's sword is the same but was only countered due to the fact Armstrong harden against weakening.

So....

Anyways will further discuss this thread tomorrow so look out for it if you want.

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sirfizzwhizz

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@red_ruby_petal:

I wouldn't say better. That is only high ends and like you even said, is gameplay mechanics. You also don't like the idea of Raiden being mach 1000.

Lets make this clear. In no way do I personally think Raiden or Vergil are Mach 5+ at all. Their respective feats vs bullet timers say otherwise. Vergil feats vs Lady or Lady shotting Dante in the head when he tried to avoid such pain. They have crazy FTE feats though as well. Thus why I said high ends.

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red_ruby_petal

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#28  Edited By red_ruby_petal

@sirfizzwhizz: I dont think they were even at peak for you to use those low showings or one wasnt taking it seriously. And FTE is a lot faster than you think for just mach 5. When they used raindrops for Raiden’s qte, they wanted to establish that he was extremely fast. In Virgil’s fight against Dante they established this by having them take every individual raindrop in their area before the rain stopped moving again. This time it is more legit. Virgil spinning his blade is wayyy faster than just mach 5. You saw those bullets. They were at least mach 2 because they pack more power than regular bullets and yet they were at snail speed because compared to how fast virgil gave that helicopter rotation. Catching every individual one of them and shooting them back at Dante. Like cmon he also showed extreme accuracy. They can be mach 5 playing around but when they get serious they are somewhere else. Typical supersonic characters can swing fast but that is nowhere near what Raiden did swinging his blade 10x in 2 swings. Like if he just made 2 in one swing that could have been supersonic already, how did he make the other 3? And it isnt linear like 5x FTE. Its expontial with the increase of speed. He was swinging his blade fast enough to deflect bullets in mgs2. This is MGR where everyone is literally 1000x stronger and faster. As far as consistancies go he isn’t really tagged by any less. But tbh this was probably just case specific to blade mode. He made Sam look still during the QTE and you saw how he literally went up to 50 cal blocking all of them.

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Zetsu-San

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Vergil takes this casually. His speed feats are superior, his sword can cut through Raidens, and he regenerates fast enough to essentially go straight for the kill and pretty much ignore any slashes from Raiden.

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red_ruby_petal

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@mylittlefascist: I wouldn’t say casually and its debatable whether he can really cut through anything or not. Raiden’s speed feats are pretty similar honestly.

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Zetsu-San

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#31  Edited By Zetsu-San

@red_ruby_petal: If it doesn't have feats of resisting dimensional attacks, then the sword should be able to cut through it. I do say casually, since you can slice straight through Vergil's body and it will regenerate fast enough to stay together. And that's for powerful enchanted weapons like Rebellion, from lesser demons Dante pretty much lets them stab him all through his body (including his heart) and doesn't even seem to feel the slightest bit of discomfort (and this was back when Dante was weaker than Vergil).

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red_ruby_petal

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@mylittlefascist: Its debatable because of the one moment he couldnt cut through the rocket launcher. What has he cut besides dimensions?

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sirfizzwhizz

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@red_ruby_petal:

I dont think they were even at peak for you to use those low showings or one wasnt taking it seriously. And FTE is a lot faster than you think for just mach 5. When they used raindrops for Raiden’s qte, they wanted to establish that he was extremely fast. In Virgil’s fight against Dante they established this by having them take every individual raindrop in their area before the rain stopped moving again.

The rain feat is something I have NO idea what your talking about.

Loading Video...

Like at all. We do see Dante to slow to dodge a head shot from Lady, and bitches to her about being head shot lol. The BEST speed feat is Vergil catching bullets on his sword and Dante cutting them in half. Oooo ahhhhhh...

The Rain feat is far better and the rain in this video is falling ANOMALY through the whole fight :/ Lets look at more proof.

Loading Video...

Quicksilver, which is FASTER BY A LOT to Vergil natural speed right? Yet, we see in this clip if you play it where I have it the rocks are still SlOWLY MOVING. Yes they are moving ever so slowly. meaning even at his fastest speeds, Dante on the time enhance Quicksilver still shows the effect of gravity on these rocks.

Just saying. The proof is HEAVILY showing Vergil speeds get wank to hell.

@mylittlefascist: Its debatable because of the one moment he couldnt cut through the rocket launcher. What has he cut besides dimensions?

Exactly this. Add to this Dante's sword has no dimension resistance feats and failed to be cut through. Unless it has said resistance feats, no need to "assume" it does for sake of fans bias head canon.

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Zetsu-San

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#34  Edited By Zetsu-San

@red_ruby_petal said:

@mylittlefascist: Its debatable because of the one moment he couldnt cut through the rocket launcher. What has he cut besides dimensions?

He wasn't trying to kill her though. I mean, dimension cutting aside, it has more than enough cutting power to go through a rocket launcher; so clearly there is context to that scene.

As for other things it cut, Nero's arm stopped Rebelion, despite Dante thrusting with enough force to cause a massive shock-wave. Yamato went right into his arm when thrust.

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Zetsu-San

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#35  Edited By Zetsu-San

@sirfizzwhizz:

Exactly this. Add to this Dante's sword has no dimension resistance feats and failed to be cut through

What? Stopping Yamato is a dimension resistance feat.

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Zetsu-San

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#36  Edited By Zetsu-San

@sirfizzwhizz:

Quicksilver, which is FASTER BY A LOT to Vergil natural speed right? Yet, we see in this clip if you play it where I have it the rocks are still SlOWLY MOVING. Yes they are moving ever so slowly. meaning even at his fastest speeds, Dante on the time enhance Quicksilver still shows the effect of gravity on these rocks.

Quicksilver is time manipulation. Dante wasn't using his speed in that scene. If he were using his speed on top of the time manipulation, only then would it actually be faster than Vergil "by a lot".

Like at all. We do see Dante to slow to dodge a head shot from Lady, and bitches to her about being head shot lol. The BEST speed feat is Vergil catching bullets on his sword and Dante cutting them in half. Oooo ahhhhhh...

What? He wasn't even trying to dodge, and the second shot he straight up caught in his teeth. We've seen him dodge bullets, we know he can do it, we even know that Vergil can cut a bullet into 6 pieces with the bullet still being completely frozen in mid air.

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sirfizzwhizz

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#37  Edited By sirfizzwhizz

@mylittlefascist said:

@sirfizzwhizz:

Exactly this. Add to this Dante's sword has no dimension resistance feats and failed to be cut through

What? Stopping Yamato is a dimension resistance feat.

Prove it cuts through dimensions at all times. Prove Rebillion can resist a dimension cutting attack outside your propose head canon you just did now. Explain why it failed at all to cut through Lady's Rocket Launcher outside "It was PIS" when I can say the same for Nero's arm really.

Because I know you cannot. When ever we see the dimension ability its always with a stance and the effect itself is shown dimension wise.

@mylittlefascist said:

@sirfizzwhizz:

Quicksilver, which is FASTER BY A LOT to Vergil natural speed right? Yet, we see in this clip if you play it where I have it the rocks are still SlOWLY MOVING. Yes they are moving ever so slowly. meaning even at his fastest speeds, Dante on the time enhance Quicksilver still shows the effect of gravity on these rocks.

Quicksilver is time manipulation. Dante wasn't using his speed in that scene. If he were using his speed on top of the time manipulation, only then would it actually be faster than Vergil "by a lot".

Like at all. We do see Dante to slow to dodge a head shot from Lady, and bitches to her about being head shot lol. The BEST speed feat is Vergil catching bullets on his sword and Dante cutting them in half. Oooo ahhhhhh...

What? He wasn't even trying to dodge, and the second shot he straight up caught in his teeth. We've seen him dodge bullets, we know he can do it, we even know that Vergil can cut a bullet into 6 pieces with the bullet still being completely frozen in mid air.

I know it manipulates time. By doing this increases the users speed. That is how it works. I said all this mate lol. I stated that the fastest thing which is Dante on Quicksilver is still not as fast by feats when compared to slowly moving rocks. Thus by defualt Vergil is slower.

I know he can dodge bullets. So can Spidey who gets tagged by bullets time to time. Does not mean they are so fast like say Flash that Vergil or Dante can never be tagged by bullets or surprise by them. Which is proven with Dante at base speed.

Point is they are Super Sonic levels at best on average. Same for Raiden TBH. If you want to use clear "outliers" and highballed feats, then both Raiden and Vergil are Mach thousands lol.

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Zetsu-San

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@sirfizzwhizz:

Prove it cuts through dimensions at all times.

No one said it cuts through dimensions "at all times". It cuts through dimensions when someone utilizes the dimension cutting technique, which likely involves channeling their power through the weapon.

Prove Rebillion can resist a dimension cutting attack outside your propose head canon you just did now.

What? How is this head cannon? Rebellion has repeatedly shown to be able to stop Yamato, despite Yamato having been repeatedly confirmed in lore to be a dimension cutting weapon; ergo it has a feat of resisting a dimension cutting weapon.

Explain why it failed at all to cut through Lady's Rocket Launcher outside "It was PIS"

He was already exhausted and also clearly NOT trying to kill her. Does everything have to be spoon-fed to you? Watch the scene man, look at the context.

when I can say the same for Nero's arm really.

What? No you can't? One is an obviously low end feat, as Yamato has more than enough cutting feats to prove it can cut a rocket launcher; even disregarding the dimension cutting issue.

All you're doing is picking out lower end feats, completely ignoring the context, completely ignoring the fact that they have clearly and consistently shown to operate on higher levels; and going "look, look, proof it's all wank!"

I know it manipulates time. By doing this increases the users speed. That is how it works. I said all this mate lol. I stated that the fastest thing which is Dante on Quicksilver is still not as fast by feats when compared to slowly moving rocks. Thus by defualt Vergil is slower.

No, you're not understanding. Yes, it's time manipulation. Yes, it enhances speed via time manipulation. No, this does not mean that activating Quicksilver means Dante is automatically moving faster than Vergil. Dante activated quicksilver, but his actual physical movement speeds were still completely normal human movement speeds, relative to his time-flow under quicksilver. Had he used his super-speed on top of Quicksilver's temporal effect, he'd have been a lot faster.

Trying to lowball based on falling rocks is completely asinine when we have already seen Vergil do this:

I know he can dodge bullets. So can Spidey who gets tagged by bullets time to time.

Except they do a hell of a lot more than just "dodge" bullets. They play around with bullets like are just floating in the air. It's baffling that you can sit there and watch them catch bullets and twirl them around on their swords, yet turn around and look at one off feats of Dante toying around with Lady and going "look, those are their REAL speeds!"

We had this CaV once and when voting came, every single voter present called you out on your lowballing nonsense.

I am done. We have already had this CaV.

@deathhero61 you can take over if you care enough.

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Zetsu-San

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sirfizzwhizz

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#42  Edited By sirfizzwhizz

@mylittlefascist: Ummm this is where you whole argument falls apart though...

No one said it cuts through dimensions "at all times". It cuts through dimensions when someone utilizes the dimension cutting technique, which likely involves channeling their power through the weapon.

I stated this. The blade can cut dimensions and anything is used for that purpose. My whole point was that. What the hell are we arguing about?

No, you're not understanding. Yes, it's time manipulation. Yes, it enhances speed via time manipulation. No, this does not mean that activating Quicksilver means Dante is automatically moving faster than Vergil. Dante activated quicksilver, but his actual physical movement speeds were still completely normal human movement speeds, relative to his time-flow under quicksilver. Had he used his super-speed on top of Quicksilver's temporal effect, he'd have been a lot faster.

Trying to lowball based on falling rocks is completely asinine when we have already seen Vergil do this:

Im not lowballing anything. Going by what is shown CONSISTENTLY, in the feats.

We had this CaV once and when voting came, every single voter present called you out on your lowballing nonsense.

I am done. We have already had this CaV.

Not to sound mean, every voter was friends with you and like Vergil as fans themselves. Ofcourse they agreed with ya. Many people in PMs with me have dislike your vote call outs and how you try to break rules in tourneys with characters and how you represent them for loop holes.

Im just saying, you want to call me out as a lowballer with proof like that....

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sirfizzwhizz

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#43  Edited By sirfizzwhizz

@mylittlefascist: After re reading the votes, many people who voted for you said you high balled you speed feats way too much. That should be pointed out too. I think both are in the Super Sonic range, and by outliers or high ends, sure pushing double digits. I showed various feats of Dante and Vergil speed compared to Mach bullets, as well to the speed of falling rocks. Most of these feats in comparison to Dante himself. You want to ignore those and suggest Vergil is like easy Mach 20+ that is your opinion. I think your wanking, but then you and other DMC fans think I lowball. Its all good.

Just to rub salt in the wound since you brought up a CaV of all things as proof...

Darth Vader vs Vergil

Vergil got crush by Super Sonic Vader in my weekly battles of Vader always win. You even tried arguing speed feats here and looks like the majority were not convince at all of the "highballing". So...

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Zetsu-San

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#44  Edited By Zetsu-San

@sirfizzwhizz: Dude, you're own callouts voted for me...

A couple people commented that I over-relied on scaling, but the overall conclusion was that you relied heavily on lowballing and dismissal of feats.

Vergil got crush by Super Sonic Vader in my weekly battles of Vader always win. You even tried arguing speed feats here and looks like the majority were not convince at all of the "highballing". So...

Umm... No I didn't. I didn't even argue on the side of Vergil and no one in that thread brought up Vergil's speed.

This was my first and only OT comment regarding that thread:

@sirfizzwhizz: Aren't Legend characters like... FTL or something?

I don't know how fast Legend characters are, but I was definitely not the only person under the impression that they were absurdly fast, even by DMC standards.

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sirfizzwhizz

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@sirfizzwhizz: Dude, you're own callouts voted for me...

Because you had better style. My own call outs who voted for you also said you highball your own speed arguments too. Your point?

Also what is your defense to Vergil losing like a bitch in votes to Vader who is also only barely hypersonic if that? Where is Vergil votes after all the debating you did speed wise for Vergil in there that seem to fall on deaf ears?

You highball shit mate as much as I suppose lowball. Deal with that thought...

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Zetsu-San

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#46  Edited By Zetsu-San

Also what is your defense to Vergil losing like a bitch in votes to Vader who is also only barely hypersonic if that?Where is Vergil votes after all the debating you did speed wise for Vergil in there that seem to fall on deaf ears?

I didn't though... lmao

This was my first and only OT comment regarding that thread:

@mylittlefascist said:

@sirfizzwhizz: Aren't Legend characters like... FTL or something?

I don't know how fast Legend characters are, but I was definitely not the only person under the impression that they were absurdly fast, even by DMC standards.

At no point did I ever even attempt to argue that Vergil was faster...

My own call outs who voted for you also said you highball your own speed arguments too. Your point?

Honestly, that's probably just people trying to be "objective and balanced". People when seeing two people argue with extremely opposing view points, a lot of people just naturally try to shoot for the middle to come across as unbiased. There's even a tv tropes page regarding the subject:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoldenMeanFallacy

Ultimately though, every voter agreed that Vergil was faster than Dracula regardless of whether or not they completely agreed with my specific interpretation of speed. That speaks volumes regarding the issue.

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sirfizzwhizz

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@mylittlefascist: Yes faster, but by how much? That remains unclear. Dracula is Mach 2 area at best. Some feats Mach 5 if one wants to Highball it. Vergil? Same area. Hypersonic barely at best. Thats being faster and well below the idea he is Mach 20+

Regardless, others can debate further. I debate the same people over the same speed arguments for over several years now. Whether its yourself, Deathhero, Negamewave, or Nickzabuto.

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Hey_Thatsmildlyadequate

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Vergil

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Zetsu-San

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@sirfizzwhizz: Except that the only thing I argued Vergil was Mach 20+ on was full sprint. In regards to combat, the fact that he can cut a bullet into 6 pieces, all while it is completely frozen in mid air; puts him at solidly hypersonic.

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HeirToTheKingdom

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Vergil and Dante are way too powerful for them.