Raiden vs Maul vs Ryu vs Grievous

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Jackal9901

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#1  Edited By Jackal9901

Rules

-No powers, force, etc. Just physical level. (Anything that can improve them in physical level is ok)

-Ryu and Raiden swords are inmune to break against the lightsabers.

-Fight to death (But they are on character)

-Universal feats (Eu, movies, cartoons, games, etc)

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-No powers, force, etc. Just physical level.

So Maul can't improve his physical capabilities with the Force? He's useless here, then.

Overall I would side with Grievous anyway.

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Jackal9901

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-No powers, force, etc. Just physical level.

So Maul can't improve his physical capabilities with the Force? He's useless here, then.

Overall I would side with Grievous anyway.

I suppose he can, but he can´t force push, choke, etc.

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WastelandMan

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Raiden:

Loading Video...

Flips a skyscrapers-sized robot.

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And that^ was pre upgrade.

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Faster than freakin' missiles and hops on them in slow motion as platforms.

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His reaction time is fast enough to casually block bullets. He also flips another giant robot but not before blocking its massive blade

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Runs so fast he can run up and down buildings.

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Perceives events in slow motion.

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Oh yeah.. right.. Raiden wins because of his strength. Lol.

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ShootingNova

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Maul would still lose to Grievous because of inferior durability, and I'm not sure why everybody has lightsabers when they're not really capable of wielding one.

Not an expert from either Raiden or Ryu but from what I've seen in threads Raiden demolishes in terms of sheer physical force, and some of the videos posted above support that.

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Jackal9901

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Maul would still lose to Grievous because of inferior durability, and I'm not sure why everybody has lightsabers when they're not really capable of wielding one.

Not an expert from either Raiden or Ryu but from what I've seen in threads Raiden demolishes in terms of sheer physical force, and some of the videos posted above support that.

Maybe because lightsabers will cuy Ryu´s sword, and maybe Raiden one too. (not sure though)

I think it´s more interesting like that.

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ShootingNova

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@jackal9901: Just make the swords impervious to lightsabers then.

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sacredweapons

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Probally raiden.

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deactivated-5f81f7f31bf06

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Raiden wins under this conditions.

In terms of order: Raiden>Ryu>Grievous>Maul (assuming Maul doesn't have his Force-boosted stats, others it'd be the other way around). I completely stand by my opinion of Ryu being able to take on Grievous without Ninpo. Maul, not so much, but with Ninpo it'd be more even...

Anyways i'm getting off track. Raiden is the clear victor here.

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Jackal9901

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@jackal9901: Just make the swords impervious to lightsabers then.

Well, that´s smart and simple, thanks for the advice.

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In terms of order: Raiden>Ryu>Grievous>Maul (assuming Maul doesn't have his Force-boosted stats, others it'd be the other way around). I completely stand by my opinion of Ryu being able to take on Grievous without Ninpo. Maul, not so much, but with Ninpo it'd be more even...

Maul does have Force augmentation in this thread though. And why would you pick Maul over Grievous in a battle of swordsmanship? And what is Ninpo, if you don't mind going into some detail? I'm just curious as to how it makes a difference.

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@i_like_swords: Huh, didn't know Maul had access to Force augmentation for this particular fight. Also the only reason I stated Grievous being above Maul (without the Force, obviously) was because I was under the impression that without it, his physical prowess is that of a peak human (I believe you may have also mentioned it in a thread I made a while ago involving Maul). I'm more than aware that Maul is of a higher caliber in swordsmanship than Grievous, I simply thought Grievous would overpower him in stats should he not have Force augmentation.

But anyways, Ninpo is Ryu's ninja magic. It essentially gives him access to a variety of abilities (energy projection, elemental manipulation, doppelganger creation, etc.). Without it, Ryu would have to rely on his weapons (all of which are useless against Maul's lightsaber, save Ryu's primary weapon: the True Dragon Sword), and of course physical stats and swordsmanship, both of which Maul is either even with or surpasses.

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@stingerrain: Maul isn't of a higher skill level than Grievous, though. In my opinion anyway. Equal skill, but Grievous has better physicals with or with Force augmentation.

Ah okay. Well.. I personally don't think energy projection is much of a weapon against either Maul or Grievous unless it's extremely powerful, relatively speaking. They're both more than capable of dodging such attacks, and Grievous in particular has a high level of energy resistance which would let him take the odd hit. The doppelganger creation could be useful if one could make a truly solid case for it's value. It may help against Grievous more than Maul though, since Maul's Force senses and precognition may help him tell apart the clones from the original.

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#17  Edited By Mee09

Raiden has MFTL reaction and feats that put him in the 29 million ton range PRE-UPGRADE. Raiden massacres everyone here.

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ComicsrulebutDBZdoes2

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But in the end In blade mode I had a 140 hit combo on a missile that was comming at raiden think about how fast a missle travels and the speed in which it would take to cut it in 140 pieces while it is comming at you that outclasses everyone here by a huge margin

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JediXMan

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#19 JediXMan  Moderator

Raiden, and I am tempted to say that he stomps. He is physically stronger, faster, and more durable than anybody here.

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BeaconofStrength

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Raiden.

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JuzaCloud

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Raiden wins under this conditions.

In terms of order: Raiden>Ryu>Grievous>Maul (assuming Maul doesn't have his Force-boosted stats, others it'd be the other way around). I completely stand by my opinion of Ryu being able to take on Grievous without Ninpo. Maul, not so much, but with Ninpo it'd be more even...

Anyways i'm getting off track. Raiden is the clear victor here.

Thats the exact order i was going to place them

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Jackal9901

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Damn Raiden....

I guess this happens when you don´t know deeply some characters.

Maul has no chance then?

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Jackal9901

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BUMP

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Frisky4

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Raiden.

RULES OF NATURE!!!!!!!!!!!

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ManDog

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Maul wins.

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@mandog: Reasons why?

There's a reason basically everyone above unanimously said Raiden wins. We're talking about a guy who's strong enough to toss around 50,000 tons of metal (referring to the Metal Gears), fast enough to leap across missiles mid-flight, and durable enough to survive said 50,000 ton Metal Gear exploding on him. Not mention possessing considerable amounts of skill and experience in his own right.

Even with Force augmentation, I fail to see how Maul prevails so long as Raiden is a combatant.

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I don't think Raiden would win against either Maul or Grievous with equalized strength.

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ShootingNova

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Well, Maul definitely isn't winning. Not for a majority at all.

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@i_like_swords: Which is totally fine; more power to you.

I'm just saying that with the current conditions of this fight, Raiden definitely wins with ease.

Heck, removing Raiden from the match all together would more or less make this an even free for all. Not trying to influence the OP, just thought i'd throw that out there.

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JediXMan

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#30 JediXMan  Moderator

I don't think Raiden would win against either Maul or Grievous with equalized strength.

Equalized strength... eh, it depends. Raiden is arguably faster - the guy was running on flying missiles. He was also able to slice people and objects mid-air ten to a hundred times before they hit the ground.

Also, he has arguably more range. Look at the size of the objects he's slicing:

Jumps on missiles toward enemy helicopter, which he slices top to bottom:

Loading Video...

Slices a helicopter from front to tail, as it is thrown at him, into 500+ pieces:

Loading Video...

Now, if you mean that he couldn't do all of this stuff without strength, fine - although it appears to be via virtue of speed, skill, and the HF blade.

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@jedixman:

Raiden is arguably faster - the guy was running on flying missiles. He was also able to slice people and objects mid-air ten to a hundred times before they hit the ground.

The missiles are fine, because it's necessary for Raiden to hop between them to progress - but with him slicing the helicopter are we sure that isn't gameplay mechanics? Because from what I can tell, how many pieces he slices is entirely dependent on how much the player can mash the controller. You could then argue that Raiden can probably achieve this anyway if it allows the player to do so, but I'd feel more comfortable with it if we see Raiden pull this kind of stuff off irrefutably in cutscenes and what not.

Still, I think Maul and Grievous can compete. Maul demonstrated a similar level of speed as a training exercise.

He performs a lightsaber exercise consisting of 10,000 slashes, a hundred times, per day.

When I complete my basic exercises, I power up my double-bladed lightsaber and practice maneuvers. My body is as strong as durasteel and as fluid as water. I shift from one position of attack to another. I fall on one knee and slash my lightsaber as I imagine cleaving my victim cleanly. I roll away and grip my lightsaber with both hands for a vertical sweep. I leap and twist and come down, leading with my left shoulder. I deliver a death blow and leap away, somersaulting in the air. I perform ten thousand slashes, lunges, attacks.

My lightsaber is no longer a separate weapon, but part of my arm. I move in the time it would take my opponent to blink. I move in the time he would take to raise his weapon. He would only see the space where I had been. He would feel the sudden shock of the blow that would knock him to the floor. I do these maneuvers a hundred times a day. I do them even though my body knows them intimately, even though I have not made a mistake or a misstep in years. I do them until the memory of the movement is part of the muscle itself. The goal of the Sith is to fight without thought.

Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Between all of his other training and potential assignments from Sidious, Maul would have to be incredibly fast in order to perform 10,000 lightsaber maneuvers, a hundred times a day.

And then he potentially demonstrates this level of speed again by slashing an opponent a thousand times in between running away from a soon-to-be exploding engine.

My rage is a torrent, a burning river. I leap, twist, keeping my weight on my good leg. My lightsaber is part of my body now, merciless, hard, cruel. I dance around him, slicing his arms, chest, shoulders. I want a thousand cuts to kill him. He falls facedown without a cry.

I leap over his body and up the ramp. My leg wound screams in protest but I do not limp. I steel myself against the pain, disciplining my mind against it. I won't attend to it until I am safely away from this ship and have landed on Tatooine.

Then I hear the warm-up of the preliminary ignition of the freighter. I start my engines and activate departure procedures. A warning light tells me that the hatch will not close.

Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

As for Grievous, he's faster than Maul via being noticeably faster than Kenobi, who is generally on even terms with Maul during the clone wars, which is backed up by him fighting faster than Kenobi can think despite Kenobi being able to bat away an army's worth of blaster fire. Although Kenobi could obviously still react to Grievous and could still process the fight, the fact that Grievous' speed was more of an issue than all of that blaster fire is telling.

In my view.. I don't get too hung up on speed when it comes to characters like this. It's fair to say Raiden, Grievous and Maul are all in the same ballpark, and while this isn't necessarily an argument, if you put Raiden and Maul in a cross-universe fight against each other I doubt the creators would account for every single feat they have both accomplished and then portray their speed disparity based on that. They would likely just be as fast as each other.

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#32 JediXMan  Moderator

@jedixman:

Raiden is arguably faster - the guy was running on flying missiles. He was also able to slice people and objects mid-air ten to a hundred times before they hit the ground.

The missiles are fine, because it's necessary for Raiden to hop between them to progress - but with him slicing the helicopter are we sure that isn't gameplay mechanics? Because from what I can tell, how many pieces he slices is entirely dependent on how much the player can mash the controller. You could then argue that Raiden can probably achieve this anyway if it allows the player to do so, but I'd feel more comfortable with it if we see Raiden pull this kind of stuff off irrefutably in cutscenes and what not.

The multitude is dependent on the player, it can be argued. However, it's worth mentioning that he does that when he finishes bosses - thus, it is a required move. He does it when he finishes every boss (except Jetstream Sam). Also, it is a QTE leading to him cutting the helicopter, thus taking away player agency. The player in that video only cut once, but it was still extraordinarily deep. Also, take note of the helicopter blade, and the speed his blade went compared to the helicopter.

When time "slows down" it is called the Zandatsu Technique by the Doctor, which is apparently a hyper-focus mode. The Doctor specifically explains that Raiden is able to regenerate by absorbing the powers of cyborgs he kills. He gets it by slicing them open and taking it from their spine, all in one motion, often before they hit the ground.

It's worth mentioning: nobody Raiden is fighting is a normal human (... with one exception, but that guy was weirdly exceptional, and qualifies as an unaltered, natural superhuman with a suit). Everybody is a superhuman artificially enhanced human with cybornetics. They can't feel pain, have enhanced strength / speed, high stamina, and advanced reflexes.


In my view.. I don't get too hung up on speed when it comes to characters like this. It's fair to say Raiden, Grievous and Maul are all in the same ballpark, and while this isn't necessarily an argument, if you put Raiden and Maul in a cross-universe fight against each other I doubt the creators would account for every single feat they have both accomplished and then portray their speed disparity based on that. They would likely just be as fast as each other.

Perhaps, but from the way MGR displays Raiden, it does everything in its power to showcase him as an unstoppable killing machine. So there's that. Also, Metal Gear dramatizes everything (they discuss morals and philosophy while fighting - welcome to Metal Gear).

I also forgot to mention: Raiden fights like Grievous. He switches hands and grabs the sword with his feet in an unorthodox fighting style. This version of Raiden is far weaker than Metal Gear Rising Raiden (the version being used here, and seen in most videos). This is just to showcase how he fights, not how fast he fights.

Loading Video...

Raiden has a degree of technopathy. He was able to electrocute other cyborgs. Also in this video, he fights cyborgs with nothing but his mouth and feet (off screen, unfortunately).

Loading Video...

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Raiden.

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Just for the sake of curiosity, what can Ryu do?

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On a side note, in terms of running speed, running on flying missiles and jumping on and off them is a considerably better feat than any running feat Maul or Grievous have ever had to offer.

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#36  Edited By ManDog

Just for the sake of curiosity, what can Ryu do?

Lifting Strength: Superhuman (can lift large weapons and weild them with ease) Class 100+ (Stopped sword strikes from a massive goddess)

Striking Strength: Superhuman, Class G (Killed that Goddess and other such monsters)

Speed: Supersonic+ (deflects bullets and missiles from helicopters and jets, moves so fast across short distances he leaves afterimages) Likely Hypersonic

Durability: Large building+ level (can drop from immense heights without threats of injury or death), Likely City or Mountain Level (was at ground zero of a large explosion that consumed most of Mt Fuji)

Destructive Capacity: Large building+ level (defeated the possessed Statue of Liberty, destroys tanks and aircraft with a longbow), Likely at least City Block Level+ (Can match the attacks of planetary threats)

Range: Extended melee range, several hundred meters with projectiles and ranged attacks

Stamina: Superhuman

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@shootingnova: Ahem.

Ryu Hayabusa was born into the Dragon Lineage and trained in the ways of ninjitsu ever since he was a mere child. Being that he carriers the blood of the Dragon Lineage (essentially a highly revered clan of super warriors in the Ninja Gaiden universe), he possesses physical prowess that can be described in one tried-and-true word: Superhuman. Being strong to lift weapons weighing around 200 pounds with little effort, moving fast enough to dodge automatic gunfire and appear as a mere blur to the untrained eye, and being able to endure fatal blows from other superhuman beings that would otherwise decimate ordinary humans. In conjunction with his years of training and his magical, indestructible katana (the True Dragon Sword), Ryu essentially became a one man army.

That's the basics of his character. General feats include:

- Taking on a helicopter using only an ordinary Bow 'n Arrow.

- Landing a 400 meter drop with basically zero damage

- Battling AND defeating a possessed Statue of Liberty using only his standard weaponry.

Oh and i'm not sure if you by chance read any previous posts I made on this thread, but Ryu can also use Ninpo (ninja magic, basically), granting him a variety of abilities such as energy projection, elemental control, doppelganger creation, etc.

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@mandog: Reasons why?

There's a reason basically everyone above unanimously said Raiden wins. We're talking about a guy who's strong enough to toss around 50,000 tons of metal (referring to the Metal Gears), fast enough to leap across missiles mid-flight, and durable enough to survive said 50,000 ton Metal Gear exploding on him. Not mention possessing considerable amounts of skill and experience in his own right.

Even with Force augmentation, I fail to see how Maul prevails so long as Raiden is a combatant.

Basically to change the trend of going with Raiden haha.

But mostly because of the force pre-cog thing.

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Raiden.

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@jedixman:

The multitude is dependent on the player, it can be argued. However, it's worth mentioning that he does that when he finishes bosses - thus, it is a required move. He does it when he finishes every boss (except Jetstream Sam). Also, it is a QTE leading to him cutting the helicopter, thus taking away player agency. The player in that video only cut once, but it was still extraordinarily deep. Also, take note of the helicopter blade, and the speed his blade went compared to the helicopter.

When time "slows down" it is called the Zandatsu Technique by the Doctor, which is apparently a hyper-focus mode. The Doctor specifically explains that Raiden is able to regenerate by absorbing the powers of cyborgs he kills. He gets it by slicing them open and taking it from their spine, all in one motion, often before they hit the ground.

It's worth mentioning: nobody Raiden is fighting is a normal human (... with one exception, but that guy was weirdly exceptional, and qualifies as an unaltered, natural superhuman with a suit). Everybody is a superhuman artificially enhanced human with cybornetics. They can't feel pain, have enhanced strength / speed, high stamina, and advanced reflexes.

Sounds fair to me. And yeah, Raiden's speed is pretty colossal, I would simply argue that Maul and Grievous' is as well. And I do agree Raiden has something of a reach advantage, however I'm not sure how much this really counts for in the end.

Perhaps, but from the way MGR displays Raiden, it does everything in its power to showcase him as an unstoppable killing machine. So there's that. Also, Metal Gear dramatizes everything (they discuss morals and philosophy while fighting - welcome to Metal Gear).

Unstoppable killing machine is how I would describe Maul and Grievous, the latter especially :P

Lol.. that's kind of strange. Mind you Star Wars isn't free of this occurring either....

Loading Video...

I also forgot to mention: Raiden fights like Grievous. He switches hands and grabs the sword with his feet in an unorthodox fighting style. This version of Raiden is far weaker than Metal Gear Rising Raiden (the version being used here, and seen in most videos). This is just to showcase how he fights, not how fast he fights.

Raiden has a degree of technopathy. He was able to electrocute other cyborgs. Also in this video, he fights cyborgs with nothing but his mouth and feet (off screen, unfortunately).

I have seen that fight a few times, he is a similar fighter to Grievous, although he is a fair bit more acrobatic in the way he sort of.. uses his swords as a method of travelling and then spins around on them. I don't know how much this would really trouble Grievous, though, since Grievous himself is highly unorthodox and has various tricks up his sleeve, like suddenly revealing his 3rd and 4th sabers, using anti-grav repulsors to hover and increasing his height in order to come at his opponents from strange angles. In terms of skill I see Grievous and Maul as superior to Raiden as well, although perhaps not by a landslide.

Raiden would likely win through technopathy if he decided to use it. Grievous has resisted Durge's electric bolas to be fair but Raiden's ability seems beyond that.

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Maul gets the beating he deserves.

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#42  Edited By synchronized_123

Grievous went out like a pussy in the movie.

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Grievous when out like a pussy in the movie.

But he´s actually a badass in the clone wars cartoon.

And yeah, he was kinda disapointing in ep.3

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BUmp

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My Ryu bias says him but realistically probably Raiden

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Raiden stomps. End of discussion.

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@ninjawarrior268 said:

Raiden stomps. End of discussion.

Yeah, posters. Why would you try to find discussion value in a thread when we can just conclude it with two words? Some people...

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DarthAznable

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@kingvenus: Raiden is powerful but he isn't thE be all end all. Especially when the other competitors have more feats in comparison.

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Wolfrazer

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Grievous went out like a pussy in the movie.

He did?....Cause as I'm not recalling that at all.