R1: Kang (HigorM) vs Asgard (DarkRaiden) - VOTING

Teams

Kang - represented by @higorm

• 8 hours prep
• Basic Knowledge

Asgard - represented by @darkraiden

Thor, Loki, Warriors Three (comic versions)

• Morals off
• 8 hours prep

Rules

• No power absorption/mimicking
• Time manipulation may only be used to make one's team 2 mach levels above what they normally are
• DC Characters are Pre/New 52
• All teams have perfect teamwork
• All characters are in character unless otherwise specified
• Please be polite
• Fight takes place here:

• Good luck and have fun!

EDIT: We are open for votes! Please vote on who you think presented the better argument. Anyone can vote, but make sure to give reasons or else your vote will be discounted.

@darkraiden:

More than a tousand empires have fallen against him in different times, in different dimensions... His name is feared and respected, his tech and his genius are among the best in the multiverse. He has many names, many guises, but one of them has been perpetually kept among the most powerful and dangerous foes the Avengers ever faced. Of course, it can be no other than..

Nathaniel Richards, better known as Kang the Conqueror:

"I am not human? Phah! As if being human was desirable! I am KANG! And that is better than being human!"

A time traveling conqueror with vast powers and technological supremacy. He has taken every opportunity to torment the Marvel Universe and is one of the Avengers greatest foes, Kang has amassed an empire with a citizenry of millions, and cut a swath of terror through the ages.

> Kang's bio:

Gallery

Powers/Abilities:

Paraphernalia:

@higorm:

Loki

Brother of Thor and the trickster God who's always a step ahead. Loki is one of the most powerful sorcerers in the Marvel Universe:

Powers and Abilities

Paraphernalia

Thor

The God of Thunder and one of the founding members of the Avengers. He is known as one of the most powerful heroes on Marvel Earth, if not THE most powerful.

Powers & Abilities

Physiology

Thor’s unique physiology of half-Asgardian and Half Elder God grants him the typical powers of an Asgardian God but he is much stronger than the typical members of his race. According to his father, Odin, Thor is not at full potential yet but when he is, Thor will be even more powerful than he is. Thor has been stated to be the most powerful being on Earth and one of the most powerful heroes in the Marvel Universe. He's often stated to be the heavy hitter on the Avengers team alongside his rival the Hulk.

Superhuman Strength

Thor is physically the strongest of the Norse Gods, being the son of Odin and the elder goddess Gaea. Thor has shown strength in excess of the Class 100 and can lift well over 100 tons. He has demonstrated strength enough to destroy the board of the Silver Surfer, defeat Namor and Gladiator in hand to hand combat, challenge and defeat Abomination as well as match the strength of the Savage Hulk for an entire hour while Savage Hulk's strength was rising increasingly due to rage. Thor has matched Hercules in several contests of strength, although never overpowering him, and the two once even sent the planet they were on out of orbit while arm-wrestling. One of Thor’s greatest feats of strength was when he displayed the ability to lift the Midgard Serpent, which has stated to be so large that it could wrap itself around Earth several times and also crush it. On occasions Thor has shown the ability to destroy moons using his bare hands and can also destroy planets with his powerful strikes. He displayed this ability when he hit Beta Ray Bill so hard that he destroyed the planet that they were on. Thor has also been shown to be powerful enough to hit an enemy with such a force that a black hole was created and his opponent was sent right through it. This was what a young Thor did to Gorr The God Butcher. He has even showed many times that he can even cause the world-eater Galactus pain with his strikes. Thor usually holds back so that he does not kill his opponents or affect greatly the area in which they are in. Thor’s strength is comparable to beings such as Hulk, Hercules, Sentry and Gladiator. Sometimes more than this. Once, when asked who was stronger between the Hulk and Thor, Bruce Banner himself stated that that's an eternal debate.

Superhuman Stamina

Due to his god-like physiology Thor has a much higher level of endurance than that of humans and most meta-humans. Thor's physiology grants him the ability to perform at his physical peak without tiring for very long periods of time. Thor’s body, unlike that of humans, produces almost no fatigue toxins. Thor has displayed his superhuman stamina in a number of situations- he once continually battled an army of Frost Giants for 9 months. Thor has been seen (from time to time) growing tired after particularly long and strenuous battles, including times when he possessed the Odin-force. Recently he has been seen sleeping more often when the day ends. This implies he does indeed require rest to rejuvenate himself, but it doesn't rule out the possibility that sleep is luxury, rather than something he requires daily.

Self Sustenance

Thor and those of his race can go periods of time without food, drink and rest. Odin himself has stated however that with no food the Gods would not survive and Thor has been sleeping on many occasions in his home in Asgard suggesting that currently Thor's body does produce fatigue toxins and thus, he must rest from time to time. Thor himself has displayed the ability to survive in a vacuum of space for an extended period of time. Thor’s unique physiology allows him to survive in space without the need of any equipment due to the fact that his musculature is much denser to that of a human being.

Invulnerability

Thor’s physiology is a product of his half-Asgardian/ half-Elder God heritage grants him a level of invulnerability that is not common amongst those of his race. Thor has been shown to be immune to all human diseases as well as its poisons and toxins. Thor is also immune to electrocution and radiation poisoning and his metabolism is so great that it is nearly impossible for Thor to become drunk except for when he imbibes alcoholic beverages of godly origin. Though Thor is one of the most invulnerable of Marvel's heroes he is not immune to all forms of harm and can be injured by a being whose power matches or exceeds his own, or by high order magic manipulation.

Superhuman Speed

Thor has the ability to fly at great speed far beyond the abilities of a human being. He is often seen flying at very fast speeds, and has even kept up with the Silver Surfer. He has flown faster than light on multiple occasions. Though Thor’s running speed has never been accurately measured he has been seen moving at speeds faster than the finest human athlete.

Healing Factor

As stated previously, Thor is not invulnerable to all harm and it is possible to injure him. But due to Thor’s unique physiology he is able to heal from most injuries much faster than a human being could. This healing factor is said to be much stronger than that of the typical Asgardian God. Thor also has the ability to regenerate missing limbs through the use of Mjolnir or the Odin Force (which he currently does not possess, only a small portion that resides within his hammer).

Longevity

It is a common misconception that Thor and the other Gods of Asgard are truly immortal. Thor and the other members of his race do age but at a rate so slow that to other beings they give the appearance of immortality. Thor has been stated to be thousands of years old which makes his life span incomparable to that of the human beings which he protects. When the Asgardians consume the Golden Apples that are cultivated by the goddess Idunn, they are able to maintain themselves in their physical prime.

Tectonic Control

After Thor was resurrected he came to terms with the fact that he was the son of the Elder Goddess Gaea and was granted the ability to control the Earth and has displayed this ability by creating very powerful earthquakes. Thor also displayed this ability when he created a chasm in Africa between two different areas to prevent the enemies of one side from entering the territory of the other.

Abilities

Master Combatant

Thor is one of the most trained and experienced warriors in all of the Marvel Universe. Even when Thor had been stripped of his powers and made into a mortal he was able to match the warrior prowess of beings such as Captain America. Thor like beings such as Hercules, is a master of various forms of combat but often prefers to use a brawling type when fighting beings such as Juggernaut, Gladiator and Abomination. Thor not only has mastered the forms of fighting on Earth but also the various techniques that are unique to Asgard as well. Thor is also one of the greatest weapon experts to exist in the Marvel Universe. He is generally seen wielding a hammer but has also shown great prowess using weapons such as an axe, sword, bows, shields and clubs.

Master Tactician

Due to the fact that Thor is a War God he has had great experience with devising plans of war. He has often assisted beings such as Tony Stark as well as Captain America in devising plans of attack while they themselves are known as some of the greatest tacticians. Thor derives his great knowledge of war from Earth as well as the other nine worlds of Asgard.

Mjolnir

Thor wields one of the most powerful weapons in all of the Marvel Universe; the hammer called Mjolnir. Mjolnir was forged of the metal Uru, by Eitri the troll, for Odin and was given to Thor by him and is extremely durable and it said to be stronger then the virtually indestructible metal Adamantium. Mjolnir was granted mystical energies by Odin himself and has been shown to be able to survive being in extreme environments such as the heart of the sun itself and energy blasts that could have destroyed an entire galaxy. It impacts with sufficient force to "destroy mountains" and has proven capable(on multiple occasions) of harming cosmic entities. Mjolnir gives Thor many mystical abilities that are not common among those of his race. Some of the abilities that the hammer grants Thor are:

Weather Control

Wielding Mjolnir, Thor can summon and control the powers of the storm, causing rain, wind, thunder and lightning. With it, Thor has shown the ability to create electrical storms, hurricane winds, tornadoes, tidal waves, blizzards as well as earthquakes that have been shown to run across an entire planet. Thor has the ability to affect the weather on a planetary wide scale but often refrains from doing so from the mass damage that it could cause. Thor is able to stop any of the weather conditions that he creates. Thor’s ability to control the weather has been said to exceed those of beings such as Storm. It is a very common misconception that Thor is unable to control the weather without his hammer but he indeed can and has been shown to do so on a number of occasions since Thor shares a unique bond and affinity with his hammer, which has been increased further after Dr. Stephen Strange bound Thor's lifeforce to it to repair the hammer. Via this bond, Thor has a strong affinity with the forces of weather and acting as a conduct can channel Mjolnir's powers through himself allowing him to summon lighting from his hands. Thor has also been shown to be able to conduct a planetary wide lightning storm to aid him in the process of physically melding back together a crumbling populated moon.

Flight

Thor naturally does not have the innate ability. Only via hurling Mjolnir and grasping onto its thong can Thor fly. In Earth's atmosphere, he limits himself to the speed of sound. When in space, he travels at faster than light speeds. Although, Thor has been able to manipulate the air around him and hover without Mjolnir. He has been seen flying without Mjolnir a couple of times like when he and Hyperion flew extraterrestrial babies off of the planet.

Resurrection

Thor has displayed the ability to resurrect beings that have been killed though it is unknown how long a period can pass between the death and point in which Thor’s intent to resurrect for the process to be successful. Thor was shown to have the ability to resurrect the Gods of Asgard but failed to resurrect the soul of his fallen comrade Captain America. Though Thor is a god, he does not have the ability to resurrect whomever he wants at any point in time. Only beings such as Galactus have shown the ability to resurrect the lives of those who have been long dead and even his powers have limits in this field.

Negation of Mystical Energy

Thor’s hammer has shown the ability to negate mystical energy within a certain area. He showed this ability when he was fighting the Juggernaut in the past and he threw his hammer around the area in which they were fighting which stripped the powerful Juggernaut of his invulnerability as well as his ability to be an immovable object.

Matter Manipulation

Thor’s hammer has given him the ability to affect matter on a wide scale and has been shown to give Thor the ability to transmute elements.

Invisibility/Intangibility

Thor’s hammer has been shown to make either himself or others completely invisible or intangible. This ability also has an opposite effect as it has been shown to disrupt the phasing abilities of beings such as Shadowcat and Vision. The disruption effects however were not permanent and both recovered.

Force Field Creation

Mjolnir has given Thor the ability to create powerful barriers that have been seen to be impenetrable. This has given Thor the ability to contain powerful explosions.

Energy Absorption and Projection

Thor has been seen to have the ability to absorb energy blasts from even the most powerful of beings. Thor can store this energy within Mjolnir and direct it back at a given target. In addition, mjolnir can amplify energy ten thousandth fold(as he did in his fight with Thanosi, a Thanos doppleganger). Thor does not even have to wait for an opponent to shoot a blast of energy, he can absorb it from their body like he did to Kang The Conqueror.

God Blast

The God Blast is Thor’s most powerful attack that comes with him being a God, Despite popular opinions, This can be done without his trusty hammer. Thor’s God Blast has been shown to be powerful enough to destroy beings such as the Midgard Serpent as well as causing harm to Galactus himself that caused him to retreat (though Galactus was in a weakened state at the time). Thor does not often use this ability for its destructive force and harm that it could cause to the surrounding area. This power can be used without the hammer, but it is less concentrated as shown in a fight with an enemy, once used a large circle was emitted from his body and destroyed the local area. He once used such an attack against Durok The Demolisher, a being who has defeated him in the past, although he did this without Mjolnir.

Mystical Link

Thor’s hammer obeys his command and returns to him when he throws it. Mjolnir could pass through an entire planet in order to return to Thor’s grip if he so commanded it. Mjolnir also has shown the ability to transform Thor back into his human identity Donald Blake. When Thor is in his human form Mjolnir is transformed into a wooden stick that he uses to assist him with walking. In the past, the hammer had a limitation on it in which if Thor let go of it for more than 60 seconds he would be transformed back into his human form but this enchantment is no longer apart of continuity.

Worthiness Enchantment

One of the spells that Odin cast upon the hammer Mjolnir was that it could not be lifted by a being that is not worthy of its great power. There are two great misconceptions that go along with this enchantment that is one: without the hammer Thor has no power and also that Thor's hammer can always be wielded by him. Thor has shown in the past that when he goes astray of the noble path he has lost the right to wield Mjolnir. Mjolnir has been also wielded by noble beings such as Hercules, Captain America and Beta Ray Bill. Regarding his powers, Thor retains the use of his weather manipulation. He has been shown to cast Thunder down onto enemy's with just a thought and levitate himself with the air around him. He can also perform a god-blast without the hammer. His strength stay's the same regardless and he has been able to fight the hulk Hand to Hand for an entire issue without Mjolnir.

Warriors Three

Thor's lackeys.

That's all.

@higorm: @darkraiden:

1 week, but try to be done ASAP

@thenewbluebeetle007: Sure brother.

@darkraiden:

First let's remember my Team Buster perks:

• 8 hours prep
• Basic Knowledge

Okay so I believe that Kang can do a lot with prep since he's a legitimate team wrecker, highly trained warrior, an adept inventor, master strategist, and unmatched when it comes to time-physics. Kang has several life-times worth of experience and has honed his skills to be the ultimate conqueror. For Nathaniel Richards, war is both a hobbie and a lifestyle, he could just kill the Avengers but that wouldn't be a challenge, it wouldn't be fun.

Kang already possess knowledge on the enemies listed for this fight, as a master of time manipulation It's kinda hard to find someone he didn't already know. So he knows exactly what they are capable of and most important, how to beat them.

> Set up time: cloaking and shields!

Taking that into consideration that Kang force-fields will be raised up before the fight starts, which also means that Kang can and will use his 40th tech to set his personal cloaking that was able to cloak him and Dr. Doom from no one less than Silver Surfer, Doctor Strange and Galactus. Also, this personal cloaking let him and Doom, reach Magus control room undetected, where they were able to make a surprise attack on that occasion. So you got a supreme sorcerer, a cosmic entity and two other cosmic manipulators with cosmic awarness that weren't able to detect him, so I highly doubt any of your teammates are going to be able to do it with their powers.

Now since Kang is undetected by the enemy and even in the remote chance your MVP (Loki) guy can detect them, the shields will be already up preventing him from any kind of attacks that may come, since Kang possess one of the strongest force-fields in comics. Kang possess powefull shields generated by his armor, strong enough to take hits from Thor and even Warrior Madness Thor, which, frankly, is a superior version in comparison to the one you have. The armor also saved Kang from entering the atmosphere when his base was destroyed. Even without the shields, the amor was strong enough to protect Kang from Thor´s hammer blast at point blank range and also hits from Thor himself.

Now, from the rules we have only one limitation for Time Manip:

Time manipulation may only be used to make one's team 2 mach levels above what they normally are

By reading that I assume that Kang can use that benefit to go wherever he wants and bring whatever he wants in 8 hours, which frankly, is more than enough. That means Kang can bring his Damocles base and the sword-shaped ship he used when he conquered Earth. So once with his space ship, Kang will greatly increase his equip, gear and operatives.Basically, this can be interpreted as a simple summoning. Kang can summom gear from the timestream whitout the need go time travel, he can pull it in the middle of a fight if necessary, see here. Of course Kang will also manipulate time to be 2 mach levels above what he normally is, this should cover any reaction speed gap, in the remote possibility of being any.

Bring the Army!

I´m gonna be honest here, Even without his ship or the use of prep, Kang is used to carry his own personal army of robots at disposal. Now imagine with said conditions and the assistance of his ship. Kang will not only bring his clones but also his more advanced creations in the robotics field (area in which he is an expert), with the Growing Man being an example. Kang has used robots in a variety of different ways during the time, like just posing as himself, or acting like copycats who are able to mimic powers, being able to copy the likes of Spider-Man, Vision, Iron-Man and even Thor, the macrobots that were able to punk a good Avengers rooster (Mantis, Scarlett Witch, Iron-man, Vision and Thor!). Here you can see one example of Kang sending the aforementioned Growing Man without prep:

Gallery

Within 8 hours Kang will also make countless copies of himself and spread them across the battlefield. These aren't exactly random weak copies, since one single Kang copy needed to be defeat by a combination of Vasp, Hercules and Black Knight, who was using his magic sword. Those copies comes with weapons and a personal force-field. They should be enough to take on the Warriors Three and keep them occupied, weaken them and maybe even defeat them. The army of clones are being sent continuously from his ship. Keep in mind they will be armed with advanced weapons from 40th century.

The R.I.P ("Rest in Pieces") Plan

Okay so, while your team is busy against the army-bots, Kang will order that his ship starts a crushing atrike against your entire team, this is what the ship is capable of:

First, the ship possess an hologram projector which allowed Kang to own Washington DC, and it can project blasts. Remember this is the same sword-shaped ship he used when he conquered Earth. You may say that the attacks won´t hit the targets, but that´s not true since It can use a selective beam that was able to destroys buildings but spares people. Now I presume you´re going to say that this is not a problem since any of your team members can easily destroy the ship, etc. Well, this ship won´t be destroyed so easily, since it possess it´s own shield that was able to block a nova blast. It took an entire team just to breach the shields.

While all that happens, the real Kang will be off your team's radar, undetected, ready to use his 40th century weaponry to take your team out one by one, the same way he did to subjugate other heroes in the past.

@higorm: Cool. Rundown of my plan:

Prep

We also have 8 hours of prep and time shenanigans so...Loki will use that to his advantage.

1. Loki will use his scrying abilities to find out any and everything about Kang and likely see through his measly cloaking tech. Dr. Strange and Surfer are cool, but Loki's far more perceptive than both of them. And has feats to prove it.

2. Loki will use his time travel abilities to retrieve his potion he used to create Absorbing Man, his Cosmic Transmuter, The Sword of Truth, the Sword of Sorrows, and for funsies, Janjborn (for Thor), and the Ebony Blade

3. Next Loki will amp my team, all x1000 as he did Ulik and Sandu. He will give the Warrior Three fake Mjolnirs as he did Storm and Deadpool to use alongside their Uru metal weapons, and even cast spells of invincibility on them to further amp their durability

4. Loki will then enchant various items as he did the mirror that makes whoever see it fall in love with the holder, cards that always win and heal wounds, and enchants their bodies to heal every wound as he did the wood giants

5. Loki then turns clouds to dragons, lizards to...dragons, animates trees to tigers, animates buildings and trees, and rocks, etc. , summons rock trolls, dust familiars, turn any animal to enhanced version as he did to giant spiders and giant dire rats, and so on.

6. Finally he makes duplicates, prepares a giant storm, raises volcanoes for later, and transports himself to Asgard to watch the battle in Astral form.

Strategy

1. As soon as the battle starts, Loki will simply transmute Kang and Growing Man, and anyone that matters (clones) into a frog. He will also use his cosmic transmuter to shoot random things and imbue them with the power to make people into frogs.

2. Loki will also fool them with illusions, call the weather down, and have his army attack. The enchantments will be in full effect, as will the amps.

3. Thor and the Warrior Three, now all 1000x stronger (+the invincibility amp+regen enchantment+fake Mjolnir amp for the Warrior's Three+Absorbing Man's powers (for Warrior Three, so they can use the city itself to be more powerful, and can't be hurt by your attack)) easily decimate your army and eventually take down Kang (especially since Mjolnir can be used to track and locate enemies).

4. If my team ever gets in trouble, Loki simply teleports them to Asgard to cooldown, then sends them back out. So it's an unwinnable situation for you.

So...

Rebuttals

Cloaking and shields!

So while your shields can take a hit by Thor, it's not likely to take hits from Thorx1000. Also, while it took that, I've not seen them block transmutation, and I've seen Scarlet Witch break them, so Loki would be able to interfere and take Kang out from Asgard.

Bring the Army!

Well as you can see, I have my own army to combat yours, and the amps to my team+Loki clones will be able to dispatch them with ease. Anyone who gives trouble (which I don't see that happening) merely gets turned to a frog or a goat.

The R.I.P ("Rest in Pieces") Plan

Now this ship shouldn't be much of a problem. Fake mjolnirs have allowed the likes of Deadpool and Storm to take attacks from Thor (both human durability). The invincibility spell allowed Deadpool to take a nuke to the face (as well as acid and bullets) without injury (healing factor not needed), and Absorbing Man has taken attacks from Odin and only gotten more powerful. The combination of the 3, plus the 1000x amp will be enough to tank any attacks.

Even better, Mjolnir's lightning and Mjolnir's striking, as well as the weapons of the Warrior's Three should be able to pierce the shields, especially at 1000x. Not to mention, Loki could simply transmutate the ship. And if he really needed it, the Ebony Blade would do.

Kang himself will be transmutated and tricked by Loki as he finds him throughout the time stream.

Summary

1. Loki amps my team and gathers an army and weapons to easily slay yours

2. Loki's magic bypasses your shields and he can locate you via clairvoyance

3. My team's amps allow them to easily wipe the floor with your army and Kang, and allow them to tank any weaponry as well, and destroy your shields.

4. Kang will be found and destroyed by Mjolnir's tracking abilities, or by Loki as he is kept at bay with illusions and turned into an animal.

Scans

Enchantment and empowering:

Animation and summons and transmutation:

Time:

Clairvoyance:

Okay one thing.

In the battle itself, time manip may only be used for making yourselves 2 levels faster, no hiding among the time stream or modifying am opponent's past or anything like that

@thenewbluebeetle007: While that's a good idea (that I sadly didn't use), can we take stuff from the time stream like weapons?

@darkraiden: just don't bring anything ridiculous like the infinity gauntlet and that should be fine.

@thenewbluebeetle007: time travel is also against the rules right?

@thenewbluebeetle007: ..?

@higorm: no council of kangs or anything. time travel is not allowed during the battle, but it may used in prep to gather resources or something

@thenewbluebeetle007: Noted. Thanks for the clarification.

@darkraiden: @higorm: 4 days

@darkraiden:

Strategy

1. As soon as the battle starts, Loki will simply transmute Kang and Growing Man, and anyone that matters (clones) into a frog. He will also use his cosmic transmuter to shoot random things and imbue them with the power to make people into frogs.

You can even detect Kang, let alone transmute him into a frog. Also, I've never seen Loki doing that against someone on Kang's level. Not to mention that magic doesn't work well against technology, Loki himself had trouble with Apocalypse before, imagine against Kang's 40th century tech.

2. Loki will also fool them with illusions, call the weather down, and have his army attack. The enchantments will be in full effect, as will the amps.

3. Thor and the Warrior Three, now all 1000x stronger (+the invincibility amp+regen enchantment+fake Mjolnir amp for the Warrior's Three+Absorbing Man's powers (for Warrior Three, so they can use the city itself to be more powerful, and can't be hurt by your attack)) easily decimate your army and eventually take down Kang (especially since Mjolnir can be used to track and locate enemies).

Kang can see through illusions, his helmet is equipped with sensors to detect life-forms (he was even able to detect a time-shifted opponent, and possess depowering weaponry (used against Wonder Man) Kang can control his tech at distance as well. His army's armor possess the ability to absorb energy attacks to make his armor recover as well as self-repair. Not to mention that Growing Man grows bigger each time he's hit.

With his control over the Cobalt force he can make your team weight half a planet, the same way he did to Thor himself before, your whole army will be useless after that:

4. If my team ever gets in trouble, Loki simply teleports them to Asgard to cooldown, then sends them back out. So it's an unwinnable situation for you.

You can't time travel during the battle:

@thenewbluebeetle007: time travel is not allowed during the battle, but it may used in prep to gather resources or something

Not to mention that it would be silly to use time travel against the master of time that is Kang, who possess automatic systems to return to his time-line in case of danger.

tag for votes gents please.

@higorm:

Rebuttals

You can even detect Kang, let alone transmute him into a frog. Also, I've never seen Loki doing that against someone on Kang's level. Not to mention that magic doesn't work well against technology, Loki himself had trouble with Apocalypse before, imagine against Kang's 40th century tech

I just showed Loki detecting and seeing people in different dimensions, universes, etc. and even locating people just by saying their name. Doing that alone, Loki would easily find him. And Magic works pretty well against tech. See: Doom vs. Iron Man, Loki vs. Iron Man, Scarlet Witch vs. Kang,Ultron, Human Torch, Iron Man, etc. Unless I see some feats of Kang resisting transmutation, he's turning into a frog.

And here's a scan really specific to magic taking down Kang's forcefields:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/96040/1732856-force_field.jpg

And Loki actually escaped Apocalypse just fine. And Apocalypse has Celestial technology, far above Kang's 40th Century tech.

Also:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Loki%20Sorcery/LokiEnergyManipulation08MightyAvengers32.jpg

There's Loki doing well against technology

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Loki%20Sorcery/LokiTeleportation21411.jpg

Again

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Loki%20Sorcery/LokiTransmutation16AmazingSpiderman329.jpg

This time he creates/transmutes technology directly

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Loki%20Sorcery/LokiAstralForm14.jpg

Here he interfaces with technology.

So as you can see, Loki's magic works fine against technology.

Kang can see through illusions, his helmet is equipped with sensors to detect life-forms (he was even able to detect a time-shifted opponent, and possess depowering weaponry (used against Wonder Man) Kang can control his tech at distance as well. His army's armor possess the ability to absorb energy attacks to make his armor recover as well as self-repair. Not to mention that Growing Man grows bigger each time he's hit.

With his control over the Cobalt force he can make your team weight half a planet, the same way he did to Thor himself before, your whole army will be useless after that:

See through illusions that fooled Odin, Bor, Thor, Surtur, Mjolnir, and so on? Doubtful.

Absorbing energy is fine, but I'd need to see feats for it absorbing magic, and Growing Man isn't a threat. He gets turned to a frog.

As far as the Cobalt force, it's not only useless against my main team, but you've only shown him using it on one person at a time, which makes it useless against my army. Plus my army is just distraction while Thor and the Warrior 3, amped beyond awesome, take you down with ease.

4. If my team ever gets in trouble, Loki simply teleports them to Asgard to cooldown, then sends them back out. So it's an unwinnable situation for you.

You can't time travel during the battle:

Um....Nothing about that dictates time travel. I merely said he'd look at them while they fight, teleport them to Asgard, and then send them back? No time travel at all. I never intended to use it in the slightest.

Summary

1. No counter to transmutation or Loki finding you via clairvoyance

2. Saw no counter to Mjolnir's abilities of tracking, striking powerx1000, lightningx1000, etc.

3. We win either immediately via Loki's transmutation, or brutally via Thor and the Warrior Three slaughtering your army (and having Loki watch their backs for them)

4. Either way we win.

5. Easy!

@darkraiden:

I just showed Loki detecting and seeing people in different dimensions, universes, etc. and even locating people just by saying their name. Doing that alone, Loki would easily find him. And Magic works pretty well against tech. See: Doom vs. Iron Man, Loki vs. Iron Man, Scarlet Witch vs. Kang,Ultron, Human Torch, Iron Man, etc. Unless I see some feats of Kang resisting transmutation, he's turning into a frog.

Let's see the kind of people you brought as a "scanning" feat:

Ghost Rider / Hulk / Asgard (great, he found his own home) / Dimensions? I'm at the same dimension as you, how relevant!

Now you know something they all have in commom? None of them were trying to hide from Loki, nor had the knowledge about this possibility. They were not place to fight him. Here you have Kang, who already possess previous knowledge about all your whoe team. Being able to defeat the Avengers before, Thor included, who is using advanced cloaking shields from the 40th century, that were able to hide him and Dr. Doom before from a Sorcerer Supreme (Dr. Strange), a cosmic buster (Silver Surfer) who packs cosmic awareness and an Entity (Galactus). Now you come with those trivial feats and wants to convince me he could fare any better than those 3 together?

Gallery

Even worse is your idea that Loki could turn him into a frog, he can't even detect him, let alone do anything against him.

And here's a scan really specific to magic taking down Kang's forcefields

Scarlet Witch powers works in a completely different way. She's a mutant, who packs probability manipulation and reality warping, also portayed as hax powers. You can't compare her with Loki, who has no feats to prove he could even detect Kang, now imagine breach his shields. Not to mention that Wanda is much more powerfull then Loki and was facing Kang with the Avengers. Loki does not have what it takes to replicate the same feat here.

And Loki actually escaped Apocalypse just fine. And Apocalypse has Celestial technology, far above Kang's 40th Century tech.

He only manage to escape after being imprisoned. He even outlines a pain reaction. Those two technology were never put in dispute, you don't have proof to claim one is superior to the other, but if you wanna go there, Kang manage to hack the Fantastic Four shield and bypases its uber probability field, and this very probability shield passed through the Black Celestial Arc time-bubble, when nobody else could do it.

So my point was to show that Loki suffered to get rid of technology before, and the same will happen here but in a larger scale. Also, Kang has already proved to be quite efficient with his tech considering he manage to beat the Avengers several times and even conquer the Earth.

So as you can see, Loki's magic works fine against technology.

None of those feats indicates he could work his magic against Kang, it only shows Loki merely interacting with far inferiror tech in comparison to Kang's. So, another irrelevant feat. For instance, you want to compare Project Pegasus, an alternate energy/research and development facility located in New York state with Kang's 40th century tech? Come on..

See through illusions that fooled Odin, Bor, Thor, Surtur, Mjolnir, and so on? Doubtful.

Absorbing energy is fine, but I'd need to see feats for it absorbing magic, and Growing Man isn't a threat. He gets turned to a frog.

As far as the Cobalt force, it's not only useless against my main team, but you've only shown him using it on one person at a time, which makes it useless against my army. Plus my army is just distraction while Thor and the Warrior 3, amped beyond awesome, take you down with ease.

Kang comes from the future, he already knows everything about Loki, Thor and everyone else on your team, so there's nothing new he could bring to the table, this next scan alone proves that.

>

Um....Nothing about that dictates time travel. I merely said he'd look at them while they fight, teleport them to Asgard, and then send them back? No time travel at all. I never intended to use it in the slightest.

That would be quite silly and unproductive to be honest, Kang can do the same on a major scale thanks to his tech.

Transmutation?!

So you claim that Loki will easily transmute my team right? Let's see how good is Loki's powers when it comes to this, luckily you brought some feats, let's take a look at them:

• summons rock trolls - Not a transmutation (different things)
• transforms a tree into a tiger - Wow, a tiger!
• transforms spiders into giant spiders - OMG!!
• transforms rats into giant dire rats - DIRE RATS?! RUN!!
• in astral form turns lizard into dragon - I like dragons!
• transmutes clouds into flying dragons - yes, more dragons!!
• animates trees to bind thor - trees?!
• animates trees against the Avengers - more trees!!
• animates the sphinx, turns whale into sea serpent, re-awaken dinosaurs - ROAR!!
• animates stone lions - ROAR²!!
• animates the ground to form a hand - this is relevant because he's fighting the ground here!
• summons dust familiars - familiar?!
• makes volcano erupt glas gobules that sap gods of strength - Wait, there's a volcano on this map?
• creates giant storm - Not a transmutation(this is weather creation through spells)

Wait, so no transmution against tech? Robots? A team buster character? Ok, a relevant character? No? so how about one single marvel character? Nothing? That's what I thought. You know what this means right? You don't have feats to prove that your transmutation tactic will work against Kang's bots, imagine Kang himself.

Army Comparison!

Let's take one example of your amping tactic. You brought the deadpool feat right? I'm not going to address feats like "enchants cards to never lose and to heal wounds" because they are not real feats to be placed in a battle of this magnitude, uttetly laughable to be honest.

Fake mjolnirs have allowed the likes of Deadpool to take attacks from Thor / curses deadpool to be handsome and invincible

Let's see how far he goes, considering you only posted part of the fight:

Gallery

Basically, he achieved nothing worthwhile. Could even give Thor a good fight!

Now let's see how good are Kang's bots...

• Macrobots:

They manage to beat an entire Avengers rooster! (Mantis, Scarlett Witch, Iron-man, Vision and guess who else? Thor!):

Gallery

Kang can even transmit powers from his foes to the Macrobots! Guess which character he manage to capture accomplish it? Vision, Iron-man and who else?

Thor again!!

See the difference?

To Sum Up!

1. So far Loki can't even detect my team, let alone transmute them. This is all I need really.

@higorm:

Rebuttals

Ghost Rider / Hulk / Asgard (great, he found his own home) / Dimensions? I'm at the same dimension as you, how relevant!

Now you know something they all have in commom? None of them were trying to hide from Loki, nor had the knowledge about this possibility. They were not place to fight him. Here you have Kang, who already possess previous knowledge about all your whoe team. Being able to defeat the Avengers before, Thor included, who is using advanced cloaking shields from the 40th century, that were able to hide him and Dr. Doom before from a Sorcerer Supreme (Dr. Strange), a cosmic buster (Silver Surfer) who packs cosmic awareness and an Entity (Galactus). Now you come with those trivial feats and wants to convince me he could fare any better than those 3 together?

Nope. The point was he said a few simple words and it found his target. He said 'find me ghost rider' or 'find me a threat' or 'show me Thor' and even scanned the entire universe and it worked.

Plus I said he'd use his visions to see your plans and prep and would thus know where you are.

Scarlet Witch powers works in a completely different way. She's a mutant, who packs probability manipulation and reality warping, also portayed as hax powers. You can't compare her with Loki, who has no feats to prove he could even detect Kang, now imagine breach his shields. Not to mention that Wanda is much more powerfull then Loki and was facing Kang with the Avengers. Loki does not have what it takes to replicate the same feat here.

The scan mentioned that she used magic. And Loki's more powerful even at a fraction of his powers:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Loki%20Stats/LokiMagicPower24aDominationFactor8.jpg

He only manage to escape after being imprisoned. He even outlines a pain reaction. Those two technology were never put in dispute, you don't have proof to claim one is superior to the other, but if you wanna go there, Kang manage to hack the Fantastic Four shield and bypases its uber probability field, and this very probability shield passed through the Black Celestial Arc time-bubble, when nobody else could do it.

So my point was to show that Loki suffered to get rid of technology before, and the same will happen here but in a larger scale. Also, Kang has already proved to be quite efficient with his tech considering he manage to beat the Avengers several times and even conquer the Earth.

You kinda gotta get caught to escape. And Celestial Tech is much better. Special enchanted weapons are needed just to hurt Apocalypses armor which comes from them and...while beating the Avengers and conquering Earth is alright, Celestials had a hand in creating the universe.

None of those feats indicates he could work his magic against Kang, it only shows Loki merely interacting with far inferiror tech in comparison to Kang's. So, another irrelevant feat. For instance, you want to compare Project Pegasus, an alternate energy/research and development facility located in New York state with Kang's 40th century tech? Come on..

Tech is Tech. New isn't auto super uber awesome compared to old tech when it comes to magic unless.....you know it has proven magic defenses, and Kang has the opposite, magic has defeated his shields.

And yeah I'd compare Project Pegasus and Vision to Kang's tech.

Kang comes from the future, he already knows everything about Loki, Thor and everyone else on your team, so there's nothing new he could bring to the table, this next scan alone proves that.

Hm......Nope. Don't see Loki in that scan. Or the Warrior Three, but more importantly Loki. And considering Loki's erased all traces of his past self recently and Kang's from the future.....it's very very likely he knows nothing.

Transmutation:

Dire Rats were powerful enough that Thor and the like had to run. So that's pretty impressive. Same with the Dragons, Thor needed a hammer just to deal with them.

But for more feats (including transmuting a skyfather), check below:

Army stuff:

So...Deadpool still took attacks from Thor and was only KO'd after being double hit by two Mjolnirs at once. Plus you kinda ignored the Storm feat I provided when she survived more of Thor's attacks and such.

You also seem to be ignoring the 1000x amps and such. It literally turned a guy who could sometimes kinda see stuff, to a telepath and telekinetic powerful enough to challenge Thor.

So fighting weaker Avengers like Iron Man and Vision isn't impressive when most of my army has done well against Thor and with the Amps, everyone on my team is far stronger than the Avengers combined.

My feats are actually better.

To Sum Up!

1. So far Loki can't even detect my team, let alone transmute them. This is all I need really.

Actually no it's not. You haven't addressed:

1. The 1000x amps

2. The regeneration/healing/invincibility granted to my team

3. Mjolnir's tracking abilities

4. That Loki's in an entirely different dimension watching this battle.

If everything you said went through for you and everyone was unable to find you for the rest of existence, you'd get a tie at best. That's the absolute best you could get. Now given that Loki can locate people at his slightest whim, see visions of your past and future (doesn't need to interfere with your prep), and Mjolnir can track, well....you WILL be found and put down.

Summary

1. No counter to transmutation or Loki finding you via clairvoyance

2. Saw no counter to Mjolnir's abilities of tracking, striking powerx1000, lightningx1000, etc.

3. We win either immediately via Loki's transmutation, or brutally via Thor and the Warrior Three slaughtering your army (and having Loki watch their backs for them)

4. Either way we win.

^ Still stands.

Except....

5. If you knew better, you'd do better!

@thenewbluebeetle007: Can we affect/interfere/see the enemy during prep?

@higorm: no. your prep is independent.

@darkraiden:

Counters & Co.

> Loki'Scanning

Nope. The point was he said a few simple words and it found his target. He said 'find me ghost rider' or 'find me a threat' or 'show me Thor' and even scanned the entire universe and it worked.

Plus I said he'd use his visions to see your plans and prep and would thus know where you are.

1. Still not enough to prove he could find Kang. Not to mention that none of those characters were trying to mask their presence from Loki, and that makes all the difference. Especially when previously, superior beings could not manage to find him.

2. That would be a huge no. You can't use visions to see my plans during prep, that would be against the rules:

thenewbluebeetle007: Can we affect/interfere/see the enemy during prep?

@higorm: no. your prep is independent.

Bottom line as the battle starts Kang will be hidden out of your sight and will be able to strike your team unnoticed while you waste time trying to find him.

The scan mentioned that she used magic. And Loki's more powerful even at a fraction of his powers:

> Loki x Wanda

Loki's more powerful than Wanda? Are you sure about that? Even the combined efforts of the Dr. Strange and Prof. Xavier were not able to deal with the effects of her power before. Moreover, Wanda, while at classic levels has already defeated Loki before through probability disruption. See scan below:

>

> Magic vs Tech

You kinda gotta get caught to escape. And Celestial Tech is much better. Special enchanted weapons are needed just to hurt Apocalypses armor which comes from them and...while beating the Avengers and conquering Earth is alright, Celestials had a hand in creating the universe.

My point exactly. Celestial Tech may or may not be better but that's not relevant here. The point is that Loki had to deal with it. He was clearly incapacitated for a moment, even a brief moment, but frankly, that's all Kang needs to put him down, after all, if there's someone who knows about time, that someone is Kang.

Celestial had a hand in creating the universe yes, but not Apocalypse, so your point is moot. Now between Apocalypse and Kang, who packs better feats in the use of tech? You said for yourself, Kang defeated the Avengers more than once and conquered the Earth as well as countless other universes..

> Tech is Tech?!

Tech is Tech. New isn't auto super uber awesome compared to old tech when it comes to magic unless.....you know it has proven magic defenses, and Kang has the opposite, magic has defeated his shields.

And yeah I'd compare Project Pegasus and Vision to Kang's tech.

It's not new, it's superior. Not to mention that Kang is more than used to deal with high end sorcerer such as Dr. Doom, who even admited Kang was his superior. He said that in more than one occasion actually. Here you can check again how easily he deals with him. Now since you want evidence, let's get to it!

This is something that Kang can easily do to your team, considering he manage to do against Dr. Doom himself and Magneto, at the same time!

You know who Iron Lad is right? He is an adolescent version of Kang the Conqueror, armed with a bio-metal suit that responds to mental commands. He is responsible for assembling the Young Avengers. So, a younger Kang manage to accomplish this feat:

>

And yeah I'd compare Project Pegasus and Vision to Kang's tech.

I'm not surprised that you compared this inferior tech base to Kang's own. A place that was entirely taken over by the Serpent Crown. Only the intervention of several outsiders averted a complete disaster. Quasar even blamed himself and tendered his resignation.

> Previous knowledge

Hm......Nope. Don't see Loki in that scan. Or the Warrior Three, but more importantly Loki. And considering Loki's erased all traces of his past self recently and Kang's from the future.....it's very very likely he knows nothing.

They don't need to be. If Thor is there then it's enough. Also, Kang has recently being succesful by using a plot in Asgard to obtain Celestial power. Now Loki erasing his past would be useless considering that Kang already has the information, which he stores.

> Transmutation

Dire Rats were powerful enough that Thor and the like had to run. So that's pretty impressive. Same with the Dragons, Thor needed a hammer just to deal with them.

You are not saying you can transmute Kang because Loki was able to transmut rats are you? I refuse to acknowledge it.

But for more feats (including transmuting a skyfather), check below

Now this is better, but not enough. You see, in all those scans Loki wasn't fighting an enemy like Kang, with the conditions we have for this fight. He's facing an enemy that already possess knowledge on him, who manage to defeat his brother (Thor) more than once before. In Ragnarok, in the apocalypse twins story, he was even able to pose as Thor's brother Loki, Kang used Thor's anger to trick him into working together to find a solution to stop Apocalypse. Kang then uncovered a spell hidden in Odin's library that could give Jarnbjorn the power to destroy Celestial armor.

Army stuff

So...Deadpool still took attacks from Thor and was only KO'd after being double hit by two Mjolnirs at once. Plus you kinda ignored the Storm feat I provided when she survived more of Thor's attacks and such.

You also seem to be ignoring the 1000x amps and such. It literally turned a guy who could sometimes kinda see stuff, to a telepath and telekinetic powerful enough to challenge Thor.

So fighting weaker Avengers like Iron Man and Vision isn't impressive when most of my army has done well against Thor and with the Amps, everyone on my team is far stronger than the Avengers combined.

My feats are actually better

Deadpool was Ko'ed by two hammers because Thor pounded him and then stole his hammer. I ignored that feat because it doesn't prove anything, that level of powers is not enough to defeat the army bots who, like already presented, manage to beat an Avenger rooster. Those bots are also equipped with paralysis rays, the same kind of weaponry that manage to neutralize Thor and Vision (also already posted), it was capable of one stops the likes of Hercules and Namor:

Gallery

You presented insufficient feats to prove your army could barely deal with the Avengers, let alone Kang and his army bots.

So my argument still remains,

To Sum Up!

1. So far Loki can't even detect Kang, let alone do anything against him.

@higorm:

Rebuttals

1. Still not enough to prove he could find Kang. Not to mention that none of those characters were trying to mask their presence from Loki, and that makes all the difference. Especially when previously, superior beings could not manage to find him.

2. That would be a huge no. You can't use visions to see my plans during prep, that would be against the rules:

1. It located people for him. No need for Loki to even look. And Kang has never hidden from anyone superior to Loki

2. I didn't use the visions during your prep or interfere with your prep at all. I merely used the visions to see your past and future and thus know where you are. Not against the rules.

The beetle quote is useless since I'm not interfering or doing anything to you during prep, but when the fight has already begun.

Loki's more powerful than Wanda? Are you sure about that? Even the combined efforts of the Dr. Strange and Prof. Xavier were not able to deal with the effects of her power before. Moreover, Wanda, while at classic levels has already defeated Loki before through probability disruption. See scan below:

That was HoM Wanda. With the Life Force that Doom gave her. Not her usual powers. And Wanda only 'defeated' Loki with probability NOT magic, which is what we were discussing. Plus you don't have to be more powerful than someone just to disrupt their spell (which is all she did. She didn't overpower him or anything of the like while he DID overpower her). So that's a complete misrepresentation of the scan. She showed nothing more powerful than Loki, especially magic wise. While he has shown to be too strong for her even when at a fraction of his power.

My point exactly. Celestial Tech may or may not be better but that's not relevant here. The point is that Loki had to deal with it. He was clearly incapacitated for a moment, even a brief moment, but frankly, that's all Kang needs to put him down, after all, if there's someone who knows about time, that someone is Kang.

Celestial had a hand in creating the universe yes, but not Apocalypse, so your point is moot. Now between Apocalypse and Kang, who packs better feats in the use of tech? You said for yourself, Kang defeated the Avengers more than once and conquered the Earth as well as countless other universes..

Loki was never incapacitated. He broke it immediately and nothing Kang has can trap or put Loki down. Especially his astral form.

And Apocalypse actually has better feats given what his armor and amps have done for people (War Hulk hurting Juggernaut, the way he handled Thor), while Kang mostly loses and has a few moments of decent tech moments. I'd put Apoc over him tbh.

It's not new, it's superior. Not to mention that Kang is more than used to deal with high end sorcerer such as Dr. Doom, who even admited Kang was his superior. He said that in more than one occasion actually. Here you can check again how easily he deals with him. Now since you want evidence, let's get to it!

Doom also said he doesn't understand Loki and probably never would so....not exactly a feat for Kang against Loki.

This is something that Kang can easily do to your team, considering he manage to do against Dr. Doom himself and Magneto, at the same time!

You know who Iron Lad is right? He is an adolescent version of Kang the Conqueror, armed with a bio-metal suit that responds to mental commands. He is responsible for assembling the Young Avengers. So, a younger Kang manage to accomplish this feat:

Neither Magneto nor Doom have close to the power of anyone on my team (with amps) and especially not the physical strength (also with amps). And besides, the scan itself says the containment fields won't last long. Which makes them useless.

They don't need to be. If Thor is there then it's enough. Also, Kang has recently being succesful by using a plot in Asgard to obtain Celestial power. Now Loki erasing his past would be useless considering that Kang already has the information, which he stores.

Until I see Kang knowing anything about Loki, he doesn't. Knowing about Thor would tell him nothing of Loki's abilities. Knowing about Asgard also wouldn't let him know of Loki's abilities.

Also knowing about Thor and the avengers hasn't stopped Kang from losing nearly every time they fight so..... just saying.

You are not saying you can transmute Kang because Loki was able to transmut rats are you? I refuse to acknowledge it.

Yes and No. Yes because Kang has no more anti-transmutation feats than a rat or a lizard, but No because my original point was showing the strength of the things I'm including in my army, that they give Thor trouble.

Now this is better, but not enough. You see, in all those scans Loki wasn't fighting an enemy like Kang, with the conditions we have for this fight. He's facing an enemy that already possess knowledge on him, who manage to defeat his brother (Thor) more than once before. In Ragnarok, in the apocalypse twins story, he was even able to pose as Thor's brother Loki, Kang used Thor's anger to trick him into working together to find a solution to stop Apocalypse. Kang then uncovered a spell hidden in Odin's library that could give Jarnbjorn the power to destroy Celestial armor.

Posing as Loki doesn't require much knowledge of Loki. Same way Loki doesn't have probability manipulation yet posed as Wanda. And Bor>>>>Kang's existence. Transmuting him alone >>>anything Kang has shown to defend against it (which is nothing btw). Also Loki transmuted Asgardians (who knew what he could do) and Thor himself who knows waaaay more about Loki than Kang does.

Deadpool was Ko'ed by two hammers because Thor pounded him and then stole his hammer. I ignored that feat because it doesn't prove anything, that level of powers is not enough to defeat the army bots who, like already presented, manage to beat an Avenger rooster. Those bots are also equipped with paralysis rays, the same kind of weaponry that manage to neutralize Thor and Vision (also already posted), it was capable of one stops the likes of Hercules and Namor:

That's not true at all. Deadpool took a hit from Thor, THREW his hammer, and then Thor caught it. He never took it from Deadpool. And you're still ignoring how Storm was given the power and durability to hurt and fight with Thor. Now multiply that by 1000. Oh and she was able to oneshot Wolverine which is no easy feat.

Those paralysis rays are useless due to Loki just teleporting my team out of them and then teleporting them back to the fight. Also I don't see any bots using said technology, nor do I see them trapping anyone as powerful as my team (fake mjolnir x1000). So overall useless.

You presented insufficient feats to prove your army could barely deal with the Avengers, let alone Kang and his army bots.

Except the fact that Thor had to run and Thor needed a hammer to beat the dragons? So imagine him fighting all of them at once? Then remember that Thor is by far the most powerful member of the Avengers and has beaten Kang 1v1, and my army is plenty.

To Sum Up!

1. So far Loki can't even detect Kang, let alone do anything against him.

This ignores the ability of Loki to see the past and future of Kang. Also ignores Mjolnir's tracking abilities. Thor tells Mjolnir to hit Kang, and it does. Plus you haven't addressed the fact that the best outcome you can manage is a stalemate. Your army will die. obviously. Thorx1000 can do that without the Warrior's three with their amps+other amps I mentioned and other enchantments. Once Kang shows himself to attack, logically, he will die as well. But even in the impossible situation that he would overcome 4 people who are far stronger, more durable, and more powerful than him with Loki watching on the sidelines, he's now vulnerable to transmutation and illusions due to showing himself, and can't find or even reach Loki at all.

So actually the best you could hope for is a loss, but by Loki after you reveal yourself to my team to attack after your army is decimated.

Summary

1. No counter to transmutation or Loki finding you via clairvoyance

2. Saw no counter to Mjolnir's abilities of tracking, striking powerx1000, lightningx1000, etc.

3. We win either immediately via Loki's transmutation, or brutally via Thor and the Warrior Three slaughtering your army (and having Loki watch their backs for them)

4. Either way we win.

That still applies, especially well everything, but you've seriously yet to show anything resembling a counter to transmutation or Mjolnir's tracking abilities. At all. Oh and...

5. Ball Game!

@darkraiden:

It located people for him. No need for Loki to even look. And Kang has never hidden from anyone superior to Loki

I didn't use the visions during your prep or interfere with your prep at all. I merely used the visions to see your past and future and thus know where you are. Not against the rules.

The beetle quote is useless since I'm not interfering or doing anything to you during prep, but when the fight has already begun.

1. That's not what the scan suggests, Loki was clearly looking to his target, who wasn't trying to hide from him, so I don't see your point. Now, Kang has never hidden from anyone superior to Loki? What?! Are you deliberately ignoring the scans I've just provided? Or you honestly think that Loki is superior to a combination of Dr. Strange, Silver Surfer and Galactus??

2. That doesn't make sense, like at all. You can't achive previous knowledge during prep. Before this fight Loki had limited info about Kang, and during the 8 hours you can't use any powers to try to scan him. I'd like to call @thenewbluebeetle007 once again to put a final word on this.

It isn't useless because the way I see it is against the rules and Kang can do pretty much the same thing on a major scale.

That was HoM Wanda. With the Life Force that Doom gave her. Not her usual powers. And Wanda only 'defeated' Loki with probability NOT magic, which is what we were discussing. Plus you don't have to be more powerful than someone just to disrupt their spell (which is all she did. She didn't overpower him or anything of the like while he DID overpower her). So that's a complete misrepresentation of the scan. She showed nothing more powerful than Loki, especially magic wise. While he has shown to be too strong for her even when at a fraction of his power.

Doesn't matter which version, nor the way she defeated him, the point is that you are using the most powerfull version of Loki, which is Loki with prep. A full power Wanda is superior to him and has proven so with feats. But since you brought this, Wanda only manage to disrupt Kang shields with her hex powers, messing with probability, not with pure magic, so it's something Loki does not possess and can't replicate.

Loki was never incapacitated. He broke it immediately and nothing Kang has can trap or put Loki down. Especially his astral form.

And Apocalypse actually has better feats given what his armor and amps have done for people (War Hulk hurting Juggernaut, the way he handled Thor), while Kang mostly loses and has a few moments of decent tech moments. I'd put Apoc over him tbh.

Are you sure? Because for me he was pretty much incapacitated, Loki himself admited it. First take a look at how vulnerable he was, Apocalypse could have done anything to him if he wanted, but instead he was trying to overwhelm him through draining, otherwise he would not be standing still just talking:

Gallery

Here you can see that Loki admits he was incapacitated by saying something like: "your alien machines can"t hold me for long!"

So, they actually can hold him for a period of time, which is all Kang needs to put him down.

Doom also said he doesn't understand Loki and probably never would so....not exactly a feat for Kang against Loki.

Can't understand < Admits Kang is superior to him.

Neither Magneto nor Doom have close to the power of anyone on my team (with amps) and especially not the physical strength (also with amps). And besides, the scan itself says the containment fields won't last long. Which makes them useless.

Highly debatable. None of your 'amped" teammates possess enough feats to place them over Magneto, let alone Dr. Doom who is a multiversal threat. There's no comparion here, they don't even come close to him. Once again, Kang needs just one opportunity to strike your team down. He doesn't need to hold them forever, and you don't have an awser for that.

Until I see Kang knowing anything about Loki, he doesn't. Knowing about Thor would tell him nothing of Loki's abilities. Knowing about Asgard also wouldn't let him know of Loki's abilities.

Also knowing about Thor and the avengers hasn't stopped Kang from losing nearly every time they fight so..... just saying.

That's an absurd line of reasoning. Kang pretty much knows everything, he's from the future remember? A master of time, who travels from a reality to another. That being said, Kang has not only encountered Loki before but has already defeated him in another reality. So considering Kang stores all information he needs to use in the future, I can pretty much say that Kang already knows everything about Loki before even step on this battlefield. The reality in question is Heroes Reborn:

In the Heroes Reborn universe created by Franklin Richards, Kang and his lover Mantis travelled to the modern era on Counter-Earth in order to battle the greatest heroes of all time, the recently formed Avengers. Kang wished to utterly defeat them as a token of love to Mantis.

Kang's assault on Avengers Island led to the capture of all the Avengers, with Kang taking Thor's hammer, Captain America's shield, Swordsman's swords, Hawkeye's bow and arrows and the android Vision as his trophies. However, Thor freed himself and his fellow Avengers and easily bested Kang in a rematch, forcing the villain to flee the scene, after ejecting the severely damaged Vision from his ship. Kang and Mantis hid out in Peru where they plotted to get revenge against the Avengers. This plot would never come to fruition as Kang and Mantis were absorbed into Loki in his bid to take over the Earth. Loki was ultimately defeated and while many of the super-beings that he absorbed were seen active following the battle, Kang's ultimate fate was not depicted. You can check this in Avengers Vol. 2 #2 and Avengers Vol. 2 #8.

Yes and No. Yes because Kang has no more anti-transmutation feats than a rat or a lizard, but No because my original point was showing the strength of the things I'm including in my army, that they give Thor trouble.

Still pointless considering it never worked on high end tech, not to mention that you did not proved that Loki can even detect Kang.

Posing as Loki doesn't require much knowledge of Loki. Same way Loki doesn't have probability manipulation yet posed as Wanda. And Bor>>>>Kang's existence. Transmuting him alone >>>anything Kang has shown to defend against it (which is nothing btw). Also Loki transmuted Asgardians (who knew what he could do) and Thor himself who knows waaaay more about Loki than Kang does.

I believe it does, otherwise he would try this such of tactic. He posed as Loki previously knowing not only about him but also about Thor, so much that the plan worked. Also, you really want to discuss timewith Kang?

@higorm:

Rebuttals

1. That's not what the scan suggests, Loki was clearly looking to his target, who wasn't trying to hide from him, so I don't see your point. Now, Kang has never hidden from anyone superior to Loki? What?! Are you deliberately ignoring the scans I've just provided? Or you honestly think that Loki is superior to a combination of Dr. Strange, Silver Surfer and Galactus??

2. That doesn't make sense, like at all. You can't achive previous knowledge during prep. Before this fight Loki had limited info about Kang, and during the 8 hours you can't use any powers to try to scan him. I'd like to call @thenewbluebeetle007 once again to put a final word on this.

It isn't useless because the way I see it is against the rules and Kang can do pretty much the same thing on a major scale.

1. Huh? He literally just said "find me Ghost Rider" and even though he was in human form and thus NOT Ghost Rider, he still saw through it. That's the same as here. And even in your scan, Galactus never looked for Kang, only Strange and Surfer and Loki is superior to both and has proven it. Especially his vision/clairvoyance.

2. I'm going to say/type it slow. I. Am. Not. Doing. Anything. To. You. During. Prep. I. Am. Using. Visions. After. The. Match. Starts.

Doesn't matter which version, nor the way she defeated him, the point is that you are using the most powerfull version of Loki, which is Loki with prep. A full power Wanda is superior to him and has proven so with feats. But since you brought this, Wanda only manage to disrupt Kang shields with her hex powers, messing with probability, not with pure magic, so it's something Loki does not possess and can't replicate.

I'm not using the most powerful version of Loki for one. Two, that's not the most powerful version of Wanda, nor does it apply. That's Wanda with outside help.Wanda faced Loki and he was more powerful than her. His feats far outweigh hers. That same Wanda broke Kang's forcefields with magic as explicitly stated on panel. So again, you're wrong.

Plus Loki has better feats. He could just reverse the polarity on your shields as he did to Invisible Woman.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Loki%20Sorcery/LokiEnergyManipulation10FirstThunder5.jpg

Are you sure? Because for me he was pretty much incapacitated, Loki himself admited it. First take a look at how vulnerable he was, Apocalypse could have done anything to him if he wanted, but instead he was trying to overwhelm him through draining, otherwise he would not be standing still just talking:

Here you can see that Loki admits he was incapacitated by saying something like: "your alien machines can"t hold me for long!"

So, they actually can hold him for a period of time, which is all Kang needs to put him down.

Incapacitated implies he can't move and can't fight back...something he did a panel later. So no he wasn't incapacitated at all. And I need proof Kang can put him down. because he's shown nothing of the sort. Ever. Especially to his astral form.

Can't understand < Admits Kang is superior to him.

Wrong. Doom can and has analyzed tech that is 'superior' to his own. Not being able to understand Loki means Loki is beyond the comprehension of people like Doom and Kang. And given that Doom actually has better feats than Kang.....that doesn't look good for Kang.

Highly debatable. None of your 'amped" teammates possess enough feats to place them over Magneto, let alone Dr. Doom who is a multiversal threat. There's no comparion here, they don't even come close to him. Once again, Kang needs just one opportunity to strike your team down. He doesn't need to hold them forever, and you don't have an awser for that.

Hmm... let's look at normal, unamped Thor's feats...

So Thor alone has hurt and defeated skyfathers, fought Celestials, taken out the combined might of the Fantastic 4 in one strike, broken planets with his hits, absorbed crazy amounts of energy, beaten Magneto, beaten Kang, not to mention that he's the one who bet Doom when doom made his destroyer armor and Loki had to save Doom. Base Thor is stronger than both of them. 1000x Thor is waaaaay stronger.

And now the Warrior's Three:

Seeing as they stop speeding trains, hurt the likes of Ulik and Fenrir, and have various strength and speed feats like Volstagg does, it's obvious they're above the likes of Storm and Deadpool. So giving them fake Mjolnirs will boost them to stronger levels, near the real Thor. Then add on a 1000x time amp and they too are far stronger than Mags and Doom. Especially with the enchantments to heal wounds and the invincibility that let Deadpool take gamma rays, nukes, and jumping from buildings face first without a scratch. And he was a human before the spell, they're vastly superior.

That's an absurd line of reasoning. Kang pretty much knows everything, he's from the future remember? A master of time, who travels from a reality to another. That being said, Kang has not only encountered Loki before but has already defeated him in another reality. So considering Kang stores all information he needs to use in the future, I can pretty much say that Kang already knows everything about Loki before even step on this battlefield. The reality in question is Heroes Reborn:

Kang doesn't know too much considering he always loses. Even his younger self acknowledges this.

Kang's assault on Avengers Island led to the capture of all the Avengers, with Kang taking Thor's hammer, Captain America's shield, Swordsman's swords, Hawkeye's bow and arrows and the android Vision as his trophies. However, Thor freed himself and his fellow Avengers and easily bested Kang in a rematch, forcing the villain to flee the scene, after ejecting the severely damaged Vision from his ship. Kang and Mantis hid out in Peru where they plotted to get revenge against the Avengers. This plot would never come to fruition as Kang and Mantis were absorbed into Loki in his bid to take over the Earth. Loki was ultimately defeated and while many of the super-beings that he absorbed were seen active following the battle, Kang's ultimate fate was not depicted. You can check this in Avengers Vol. 2 #2 and Avengers Vol. 2 #

lolwut? Why did you link this? Let me quote the most important parts:

"However, Thor freed himself and his fellow Avengers and easily bested Kang in a rematch, forcing the villain to flee the scene"

I have Thor on my team and he's amped and morals off. So you've admitted this is a stomp. Also

"This plot would never come to fruition as Kang and Mantis were absorbed into Loki in his bid to take over the Earth"

So Loki also defeated Kang....not sure why this helps you at all but...thanks! Also if Loki absorbed Kang it's likely he would then have info on Kang. Just saiyan. You dug your own grave.

Still pointless considering it never worked on high end tech, not to mention that you did not proved that Loki can even detect Kang.

His magic has worked on high end tech. It stopped Doom from using a machine to harness universal power. It worked on the Destroyer and Doom's destroyer, on Celestial tech, and on Vision. And you've yet to show Kang even resist transmutation so......

believe it does, otherwise he would try this such of tactic. He posed as Loki previously knowing not only about him but also about Thor, so much that the plan worked. Also, you really want to discuss timewith Kang?

Nope. Just how Loki posed as Scarlet Witch, Dr. Strange, random Odin bodyguards, Bor, etc. Proof Kang knows about Loki or nothing. And.....i never mentioned time. Didn't even mention the word.

Let me repeat this since you ignored it:

"This ignores the ability of Loki to see the past and future of Kang. Also ignores Mjolnir's tracking abilities. Thor tells Mjolnir to hit Kang, and it does. Plus you haven't addressed the fact that the best outcome you can manage is a stalemate. Your army will die. obviously. Thorx1000 can do that without the Warrior's three with their amps+other amps I mentioned and other enchantments. Once Kang shows himself to attack, logically, he will die as well. But even in the impossible situation that he would overcome 4 people who are far stronger, more durable, and more powerful than him with Loki watching on the sidelines, he's now vulnerable to transmutation and illusions due to showing himself, and can't find or even reach Loki at all.

So actually the best you could hope for is a loss, but by Loki after you reveal yourself to my team to attack after your army is decimated.

Summary

1. No counter to transmutation or Loki finding you via clairvoyance

2. Saw no counter to Mjolnir's abilities of tracking, striking powerx1000, lightningx1000, etc.

3. We win either immediately via Loki's transmutation, or brutally via Thor and the Warrior Three slaughtering your army (and having Loki watch their backs for them)

4. Either way we win.

That still applies, especially well everything, but you've seriously yet to show anything resembling a counter to transmutation or Mjolnir's tracking abilities. At all. Oh and..."

5. Get em the f*** outta here!

T4V please

@thenewbluebeetle007: I'm waiting for your decision to proceed..

@higorm: no affecting each others' prep, and no scanning for info on the opponent either.

So I can't scan for info during the battle?

@darkraiden: no

@higorm try to finish by tuesday

@thenewbluebeetle007: Roger that.

Well that's utterly retarded.

One more of that and you will have forfeited your spot in this tourney.

Ooohh threats and stuff. I'm scurred. lol at catching feelings from one 4 letter statement.

@darkraiden said:

No, not feelings. I couldn't care less what you think. I'm just not going to tolerate rudeness.

Well, that escalated quickly!

@darkraiden: @thenewbluebeetle007: i'm ready for votes after this..

1. Huh? He literally just said "find me Ghost Rider" and even though he was in human form and thus NOT Ghost Rider, he still saw through it. That's the same as here. And even in your scan, Galactus never looked for Kang, only Strange and Surfer and Loki is superior to both and has proven it. Especially his vision/clairvoyance.

2. I'm going to say/type it slow. I. Am. Not. Doing. Anything. To. You. During. Prep. I. Am. Using. Visions. After. The. Match. Starts.

1. Not the same as here, not even close. Ghost Rider was not in a battle situation against him nor trying to hide from him. Now this is a matter of selective interpretation from your part and I won't play this game, but Loki has never proved to be superior to the Sorcerer Supreme, not to mention that Loki can't be superior to a combination of a Dr. Strange and Silver Surfer. The feats you brought don't even scratch the surface.

2. This part is already settled by the tourney ruler:

no affecting each others' prep, and no scanning for info on the opponent either.

Which means you can't scan for info during the battle. Which frankly would be a waste of your time, since you would find nothing and give Kang extra time to strike your team down.

I don't need to adress anything else considering you failed to prove you can even detect your enemy in the battlefield.

In Summary: 10 reasons why Kang wins!

1. Conquered the Earth and all it's heroes (Thor included);
2. Previous full knowledge on the enemy team;
3. Overall superior offensive weaponry;
4. Already defeated Loki (other reality);
5. Already defeated Thor (616);
6. Better feats with prep;
7. Superior defenses;
8. Cloaking shields;
9. Superior army;
10. Superior gear.

@higorm:

Um...Ok.

Guess I'll point out a few things:

Points Never Countered:

1. Loki transmuting Kang

2. Loki tricking Kang with illusions

3. The fact that Kang's army will be stomped by Thorx1000xinvincibility+Warrior3x1000xinvincibilityxFakeMjolniramp.

4. Mjolnir's tracking abilities. shown below:

5. Not being able to find or harm Loki, especially enough to harm his astral form

In Summary: Why we win

1. Thor and the Warrior's three with amps are far more powerful than anything Kang or his army can handle

2. Thor has beaten Kang 1v1 many times

3. Kang has always failed against the Avengers

4. Even in the alternate universe, Loki is the one who absorbed Kang like a pawn

5. Kang can't find or harm Loki

6. Kang has nothing to put down anyone on my team

7. Thor can track Kang with Mjolnir

8. Kang has no defenses against transmutation

9. Kang has minimal defenses against illusion

10. This n!gga dead!!

@cosmicallyaware1 said:

Voting's open

@higorm easily gets my vote. His detailed arguments on Kang's ability to shield himself from DarkRaiden's team, had the superior rebuttals by a mile and his prep time was far more convincing and more applicable on the debate itself than DarkRaiden's was. As per usual, DR was far too complacent and self assured in his lackluster arguments, repeated the same points despite them having been rebutted several times and lacked many plausible evidence or points to prove his team could come close to finding and stopping Kang. And without Loki's ability to scan his foes, DarkRaiden's case falls apart anyway.

@lvenger said:

Thanks for voting.

Scoring

@higorm (1)

• lvenger

@darkraiden (0)

winner plays serrure

Two things. I don't think just because illusions fooled someone like Odin it means it could fool Kang and just because Kang couldn't be found by Dr. Strange and Silver Surfer since neither was shown to have better tracking abilities. There was nothing to really suggest Higors team wouldn't go down to transmutation. Vote goes to @darkraiden.

@wardemon32: Thanks for reading, and thanks for the vote!

You wound me kind sir!

@wardemon32 said:

Thanks for voting.

Scoring

HigorM (1)

• Lvenger

DarkRaiden (1)

• Wardemon32

@lvenger: thank you!

bump for votes

@thenewbluebeetle007: Am I allowed to vote here? I know I'm in the tournament, and I don't want to be a conflict of interest or anything. If so, I'll vote for HigorM. If the vote is legal I'll elaborate with an explanation.

@firestormfate1919: yes, you may vote.

@thenewbluebeetle007: @higorm: In that case I'll give a vote to HigorM. I think his argument was far more realistic and his counters were a lot more viable. DarkRaiden blew a lot of his feats out of proportion, and refused to acknowledge many of the counters put into place. HigorM had the more consistent and proven plan in the end, and therefore I believe he had the better argument in place.