#1 Edited by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

Rules

Master Hands jobs include in the list below.

  • Master Hand will make sure matches are made to give, for example, a all Kryptonian Team magic brass knuckles to help them beat a Ghost Rider Team that would otherwise stomp. Same for Psykers vs a non Psyker team.
  • Master Hand is also in charge of BFR. You can BFR a foe, teammates, or yourself for a total of 5 minuets. after that Master Hand forces you back to the arena where said BFRed person cannot be BFR again for 10 seconds. Anyone who played Smash Brothers understands this concept.
  • Master Hand also keeps Reality Warping and Time Traveling from happening with the mighty wag of his finger. You can slow time or speed it up. You can even Freeze time in certain a 100 foot radius for 10 seconds. But that is it. Molecule Manipulation and Transmutation are all allowed.
  • Master Hand makes sure each match give a 10 second No Rush policy. Your characters will have time to set up spells, force fields, ect before the fight starts. Speed Blitzing will come after 10 seconds.

Additional rules to know.

  • DC characters are all Pre 52 Unless stated otherwise.
  • All other characters are current unless stated otherwise.
  • All characters have standard Gear and no Prep Gear unless stated otherwise.
  • All characters are in character with morals on.

@beatboks1

Ultrahumanite, Parasite, Cyborg Superman

@mr_ingenuity

Jean (Green Phoenix), Iceman, X-Man (Prior to depowerment)

Conditions

  • Win by Death or KO.
  • BFR and Time Freezing lasts 10 Seconds only before Master Hand Returns all to Normal.
  • All are In Character.
  • 10 Seconds of No Rush.
  • Battlefield: Earth and to the Moon. Both tart 1 Mile away in the Mountains.

Perks from Master Hand

N/A Deemed a Fair Battle.

#2 Posted by beatboks1 (7071 posts) - - Show Bio
#3 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio
#4 Posted by beatboks1 (7071 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Before I start, I know you said pre 52 but is Parasite the original Jensen or the later Rudy Jones??

#5 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Before I start, I know you said pre 52 but is Parasite the original Jensen or the later Rudy Jones??

Pick one.

#6 Posted by beatboks1 (7071 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Then I take Rudy, Jenson could overload if he drained powers energy too fast. Plus Rudy isn't limited to just touch to drain energy

@mr_ingenuity

Now to the battle opener. So three Omega level Mutants. Against most other teams quite a pick, sadly lacking here.

In the interests of fairness I'm going to say that Cyborg Supers is from before he gained the 4 Owan and 10 Quardian rings(certainly no white lantern batteries). he really shouldn't need them. So basically I have two genius brutes in the Kryptonian leagues and one idiot power copier drainer. One of those genius has high level TP/TK the other is as good a technopath as they come.

In the 10 seconds of no rush Ultra will sense that Jean and Xman together are too much for him alone. he will open his mind to Cyborg Supes who will technomorph TP blockers from the technology on earth. Cyborg Supes will also draw more tech into himself to enhance himself with technology while he allows Parasite to drain some of his energy for powers.

Using this power grain once the 10 seconds is up parasite will launch himself at Jean under Ultra's advice at Kryptonian Superspeed. With that much energy (Pheonix) to grain it wont be long before Parasite is an absolute beast.

Cyborg Supes will take on Iceman while Ultra goes in to take on Xman who TP wise is more in his league.

#7 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (7389 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: This should be entertaining.

Opening Strategy

With the first ten seconds X-Man will fuse his consciousness with Iceman. At the same time Ice man will be creating Ice Cones, he has created 20+ cones in seconds so he will start there & continue to build. This will allow for Iceman to have greater control when letting loose(think molecular level cryokinesis + telekinesis) & X-Man to be multiple places at once. Then both will both will cast a wide TK cryokinesis shield around the team that when hit will freeze near absolute zero.

Ice man controlling multiple ice bodies
Absolute Zero control
Temperature control

Fuses her fractured selves back mind & body(scans reversed order)

Takes over Osborn's mind

.

Jean will TP link with both, provide herself with TK shields & offer he team psionic energy from the phoenix force making their limits nonexistent.

Battle

Now when both teams meet head on X-Man will notice with psychometry that Parasite is a power drainer & Cyborg Superman is really incorporeal having no real body. To combat Cyborg Superman he X-Man will pull his essences to the physical plain and keep it there. For Parasite X-man & Iceman can continuously freeze him & if that doesn't work(not that parasite could walk away form near absolute zero & anyway)X-Man will use TP to remove Parasite's access to his powers then put him to sleep. Ultra should have his hands full already with Jean & with X-Man/Ice-Man supporting Ultra can be overwhelmed with cryokinesis + telekinesis & if the need arise TP & time control.

Psychometry explaintion.

.

#8 Posted by beatboks1 (7071 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity:

Now when both teams meet head on X-Man will notice with psychometry that Parasite is a power drainer & Cyborg Superman is really incorporeal having no real body. To combat Cyborg Superman he X-Man will pull his essences to the physical plain and keep it there. For Parasite X-man & Iceman can continuously freeze him & if that doesn't work(not that parasite could walk away form near absolute zero & anyway)X-Man will use TP to remove Parasite's access to his powers then put him to sleep. Ultra should have his hands full already with Jean & with X-Man/Ice-Man supporting Ultra can be overwhelmed with cryokinesis + telekinesis & if the need arise TP & time control.

Few problems with this strategy.

1. You don't have enough speed or the reaction to make any of this work in time. Since both parasite and and Cyborg Supes will be attacking at at least light speed. Parasite will be on jean and have absorbed half of the pheonix before you have a chance to address him.

2. Freezing might slow parasite but it wont stop him just like it doesn't stop a flash who moves as quick. Even if this was a problem Ultra could mentally command some of his gear to come on line and counter. he has done this before and controlled one of his time machines from another dimension (infinity Inc early issues). One of the devices he could bring on line is his device that controls active volcanoes and magma within the Earths core. he used this in All Star Squadron and in early action issues to fake his death in a volcano. He also has various nuclear devices (having perfected the nuclear bomb 4.5 years before Hiroshima) and electro dynamoes like the one that gave deathbolt the power to light up a city.

3. Ultra wont be tied up with jean because she'll be to damn busy getting drained of all her power. So he'll be able to deal with X-man's TP assaults. Considering he matched Brainwave who could TP command the Spectre to do his will at the same time as the rest of the JSA X-man wont be too much for him.

Brainwave TP pushing Spectre to leave while at the same time giving the rest of the JSA a mental command to come to his trap.
equal of Brainwave in Psionics

4. Parasite's mere presence not just draws power but drains the life energy out of beings. If you can't BFR him quickly (which you cant) he will eventually kill your team just by being in their presence even if you do manage to beat my other two characters.

5. Time control is not the way you defeated someone who has mastered time travel as much as Ultra.

#9 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (7389 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1:

Few problems with this strategy.

1. You don't have enough speed or the reaction to make any of this work in time. Since both parasite and and Cyborg Supes will be attacking at at least light speed. Parasite will be on jean and have absorbed half of the pheonix before you have a chance to address him.

I would be interested if you could show some combat speed feats that are light speed from your characters.

Also my team is composed of 20+ ice cones that have cryokinesis & telekinesis being backed by energy from the phoenix force. So when your team comes into contact with their shields they they will be frozen near 0K.

In addition to that Parasite can't steal the Phoenix Force from Jean (any other wielder is possible). Back before Jean combined with the Phoenix it only allowed her its power.

Even years latter when it came back to earth the Phoenix searched for Jean & brought her back from death because it wanted a host.

Then it's latter revealed that jean can reclaim the Phoenix even if if finds a new host. By telepathically assaulting Dark Phoenix Emma & ripping it out of her.

So I doubt a brute like Parasite could use it's power let alone take it from Jean.

2. Freezing might slow parasite but it wont stop him just like it doesn't stop a flash who moves as quick. Even if this was a problem Ultra could mentally command some of his gear to come on line and counter. he has done this before and controlled one of his time machines from another dimension (infinity Inc early issues). One of the devices he could bring on line is his device that controls active volcanoes and magma within the Earths core. he used this in All Star Squadron and in early action issues to fake his death in a volcano. He also has various nuclear devices (having perfected the nuclear bomb 4.5 years before Hiroshima) and electro dynamoes like the one that gave deathbolt the power to light up a city.

I would like to see comparable feats from a kryptonian empowered Parasite that puts him near combat speed of light.

You think an amped Shaman Iceman (Iceman + Shaman X-Man) cant freeze that also. Well here is a treat.

Freezes a fusion core explosion which is no less than a nuke.

3. Ultra wont be tied up with jean because she'll be to damn busy getting drained of all her power. So he'll be able to deal with X-man's TP assaults. Considering he matched Brainwave who could TP command the Spectre to do his will at the same time as the rest of the JSA X-man wont be too much for him.

Parasite will not be draining anything. So Utlra still has to deal with Jean while Shaman Iceman deals with the rest.

4. Parasite's mere presence not just draws power but drains the life energy out of beings. If you can't BFR him quickly (which you cant) he will eventually kill your team just by being in their presence even if you do manage to beat my other two characters.

Good thing the Phoenix Force can heal the dead even while Jean Grey herself is weakening it.

5. Time control is not the way you defeated someone who has mastered time travel as much as Ultra.

There is a difference between time travel and time control. While most characters can simply move from one point to the next (past present & future)

X-Man can slow it down stop it & move from one point to the next.

If X-Man where to simply slow it down for the allowed time your team wouldn't know it was happening.

#10 Posted by beatboks1 (7071 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity:

In addition to that Parasite can't steal the Phoenix Force from Jean (any other wielder is possible). Back before Jean combined with the Phoenix it only allowed her its power.

This is of no help to you what soever as protection from Parasite. Parasite is not an energy drainer who simply drains power or energy. he drains the life force and the very being of people. In the past when he has drained Superman he has absorbed his memories, his essence and has even taken on his DNA. He will drain it because for all intents and purposes he will BE HER.

Not to mention Henshaw himself has manipulated the energy of the Source Wall (arguably DC's equivalent to the phoenix force). So he is also capable of manipulating both Jean and Xman or even the ice of Bobby.

Cyborg Superman, in one of his first appearance's masquerading as the Man of Steel, superspeeds his way into a government facility:

Cyborg Superman (in his human form) moves his hands so fast that a group of people watching him were completely incapable of seeing what he was doing:

Hank used a combination of speed and strength to punch directly through ROD Doomsday. Despite being a clone, this Doomsday seemed to be physically on par with the original:

Thanks to comicstooge for all the scans - taken directly from one of his CAV's

I think everyone knows that all Kryptonians are near light speeders and with parasite his power is whatever he drains from others. Since he could literally drain every bit of the Kryptonian power within Hank in the 10 seconds no rush and Hank would be fine because he can technomorph to replace that power he will be more than fast enough to make this happen

#11 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (7389 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1:

This is of no help to you what soever as protection from Parasite. Parasite is not an energy drainer who simply drains power or energy. he drains the life force and the very being of people. In the past when he has drained Superman he has absorbed his memories, his essence and has even taken on his DNA. He will drain it because for all intents and purposes he will BE HER.

As I said before this is ”Back before Jean combined with the Phoenix”.

Now Jean is bonded to the Phoenix on the psionic level. So to steal the Phoenix from Jean he will have to completely absorb her Mind. But If Parasite tires to absorb Jeans mind then his mind will be overpowered by Jean & X-Man telepathic-link.

You may have forgotten but Jean is not above TP assaulting Parasite shutting down his mind.

Furthermore Parasite has no way of getting pass Shaman Iceman’s TK shields or TP assault. Considering Parasite has no defence against extreme temperatures that freezes on the molecular level & Shaman Iceman can be everywhere at once.

Not to mention Henshaw himself has manipulated the energy of the Source Wall (arguably DC's equivalent to the phoenix force). So he is also capable of manipulating both Jean and Xman or even the ice of Bobby.

IIRC Henshaw got trapped in/put into the source wall it wasn't something he did voluntarily & he didn't learn it flat out.

Cyborg Superman, in one of his first appearance's masquerading as the Man of Steel, super speeds his way into a government facility:

Cyborg Superman (in his human form) moves his hands so fast that a group of people watching him were completely incapable of seeing what he was doing:

Hank used a combination of speed and strength to punch directly through ROD Doomsday. Despite being a clone, this Doomsday seemed to be physically on par with the original:

Nothing here suggest combat speed near the speed of light.

I think everyone knows that all Kryptonians are near light speeders and with parasite his power is whatever he drains from others. Since he could literally drain every bit of the Kryptonian power within Hank in the 10 seconds no rush and Hank would be fine because he can technomorph to replace that power he will be more than fast enough to make this happen

It's commonly know Superman has nanosecond reaction time but he doesn't have the feats for FTL combat speed. While I have no doubts about hypersonic (100+ mach) combat speed this thread or this one did a good job of classifying Brick Tier speeds.

Also if you are going to compare your characters combat speed to Flash it should be noted Flash is slowed down by extreme cold to speeds able to be perceived & consistently tagged.

#12 Posted by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio
#13 Edited by beatboks1 (7071 posts) - - Show Bio

1. As I said before this is ”Back before Jean combined with the Phoenix”.

Now Jean is bonded to the Phoenix on the psionic level. So to steal the Phoenix from Jean he will have to completely absorb her Mind. But If Parasite tires to absorb Jeans mind then his mind will be overpowered by Jean & X-Man telepathic-link.

2. You may have forgotten but Jean is not above TP assaulting Parasite shutting down his mind.

3. Furthermore Parasite has no way of getting pass Shaman Iceman’s TK shields or TP assault. Considering Parasite has no defence against extreme temperatures that freezes on the molecular level & Shaman Iceman can be everywhere at once.

4. IIRC Henshaw got trapped in/put into the source wall it wasn't something he did voluntarily & he didn't learn it flat out.

5. Nothing here suggest combat speed near the speed of light.

It's commonly know Superman has nanosecond reaction time but he doesn't have the feats for FTL combat speed. While I have no doubts about hypersonic (100+ mach) combat speed this thread or this one did a good job of classifying Brick Tier speeds.

6. Also if you are going to compare your characters combat speed to Flash it should be noted Flash is slowed down by extreme cold to speeds able to be perceived & consistently tagged.

  1. Obviously i wasn't clear in my last post but that is the very nature of Parasite's power. He absorbs your very being. In one time line he had absorbed so much of Clark that he became Clark Kent and supplanted him. He does and always has done more than absorb powers he absorbs the very life essence of beings in their entirety. In mere moments his presence on a train cost every passenger their lives as he absorbed every bit of their life force.
  2. He actually hasn't got much of a mind to assault due to the fact that it is fragments of the many lives he's absorbed. In all honesty she can go right ahead, I just don't see it getting her far. Though I think you've forgotten the TP blockers that Henshaw is going to technomorph from Ultra's specs in teh 10 seconds of no rush. Ultra has already created TP blockers that allowed him to defeat and subdue Martian Manhunter, Hector Sammond, Grodd, Starr, and several other TPers at once. They'll be pretty effective shields even against Jean and Xman.
  3. TK etc as far as parasite is concerned is just more energy he can drain. he literally can't get enough. Same is true for Iceman's ice constructs. The more energy thrown at him is the more power he will have. he has absorbed Superman's heat vision and become more powerful than him in seconds because the level of solar energy he absorbed is greater than that in Superman's cells. Since i was allowed to choose Rudy Jones and not get stuck with jenson he doesn't even have the issue of the original that he can overload if he draws energy too fast ( the way Parasite was defeated in the SA) Quite frankly I want you to throw the book at him, everything you've got because the more you throw the weaker you get and the stronger he will become.
  4. Fact is he has learned it now and when the chips were down could do it. It's now in his memory banks to draw upon if the need arises.
  5. Where did I mention combat speed. I used travel speed and you can't seriously tell me that when we have multiple instances of Superman traveling from our galaxy to the far side of the universe in moments that he last FTL travel speed. It's been stated multiple times that hank has all Kal's physicals and can created a cyborg form with them. I'm not the one who need the combat speed I said in my opener that as soon as the 10 seconds no rush is over Parasite will launch straight at Jean with full Kryptonian speed. Your the one who's going to need FTL combat/reaction speed to prevent him being in her energy matrix in less than nanaosrconds and having absorbed most of what she is. Moving so fast you don't even leave an image or after image of your hands is also a very definite FTL speed feat.
  6. It only slows him down enough so he can see him it doesn't stop him. Flash still moves at amazing speed even in Colds "ABSOLUTE ZERO" cold field. He is also still able to manipulate his molecules and heat things up to counter it. So again Bobby's little Ice cones wont stop Parasite in his super speed plunge at Jean.

Ultra has controlled his time machines mentally from other dimensions like he did in the early issues of Infinity Inc to send the young heroes back to 1940 where he took over their minds and used them against their parents before they were born. The instant things go south for my team they suddenly are gone from the current time licking their wounds for the ten seconds of time freeze only to strike anew reinvigorated and a new tact. That of course isn't likely to happen. It wont happen because Hank gives me basically control over all the teach on the planet earth to sue against you. Ultra besides his mental and physical powers has many amazing devices he can use not least of which is the mole machine that has given him complete control over all active Volcanoes on the planet. Teleporters that he has used to teleport himself to safety when he was almost lost. Devices he has used to change or upset the cosmic balance and remove some of his enemies from existence. Combine this with Parasite who by the very nature of his existence will slowly absorb the powers and very life essence of your team and I am assured of Victory.

#14 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (7389 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1

  1. Obviously i wasn't clear in my last post but that is the very nature of Parasite's power. He absorbs your very being. In one time line he had absorbed so much of Clark that he became Clark Kent and supplanted him. He does and always has done more than absorb powers he absorbs the very life essence of beings in their entirety. In mere moments his presence on a train cost every passenger their lives as he absorbed every bit of their life force.

Comparing Superman’s mind to Jean is underestimate Jeans’ telepathic abilities. Also absorbing the life of someone who can give life & control that power at will is a feat Parasite has not been shown to accomplish.

  1. He actually hasn't got much of a mind to assault due to the fact that it is fragments of the many lives he's absorbed. In all honesty she can go right ahead, I just don't see it getting her far. Though I think you've forgotten the TP blockers that Henshaw is going to technomorph from Ultra's specs in teh 10 seconds of no rush. Ultra has already created TP blockers that allowed him to defeat and subdue Martian Manhunter, Hector Sammond, Grodd, Starr, and several other TPers at once. They'll be pretty effective shields even against Jean and Xman.

When has affecting millions of minds been an issue for world level telepathy?

Reed designed psi blockers specifically for X-Man and he easily circumvented it to control Ben & Johnny. X-Man can also freeze the equipment until it can’t function.

.

Jean has by passed a telepathic proof helmet.

  1. TK etc as far as parasite is concerned is just more energy he can drain. he literally can't get enough. Same is true for Iceman's ice constructs. The more energy thrown at him is the more power he will have. he has absorbed Superman's heat vision and become more powerful than him in seconds because the level of solar energy he absorbed is greater than that in Superman's cells. Since i was allowed to choose Rudy Jones and not get stuck with jenson he doesn't even have the issue of the original that he can overload if he draws energy too fast ( the way Parasite was defeated in the SA) Quite frankly I want you to throw the book at him, everything you've got because the more you throw the weaker you get and the stronger he will become.

In an attempt to copy or absorb X-Man’s powers he will simply slow down time to planck length/planck time. Making it Jean, Himself & Iceman vs Parasite, time slowed Ultra & time slowed Cyborg Superman.

.

Which leads back to the original plan X-Man pulls Cyborg Superman’s mind to the physical plain, telepathically strips parasite of his powers & Jean w/ Shaman-Iceman beats in a mental & physical assault Ultra while he’s unable to fight back.

.

  1. Fact is he has learned it now and when the chips were down could do it. It's now in his memory banks to draw upon if the need arises.

Fair enough. But he would get the chance.

  1. Where did I mention combat speed. I used travel speed and you can't seriously tell me that when we have multiple instances of Superman traveling from our galaxy to the far side of the universe in moments that he last FTL travel speed. It's been stated multiple times that hank has all Kal's physicals and can created a cyborg form with them. I'm not the one who need the combat speed I said in my opener that as soon as the 10 seconds no rush is over Parasite will launch straight at Jean with full Kryptonian speed. Your the one who's going to need FTL combat/reaction speed to prevent him being in her energy matrix in less than nanaosrconds and having absorbed most of what she is. Moving so fast you don't even leave an image or after image of your hands is also a very definite FTL speed feat.

I assumed as much when you started comparing flash vs absolute cold to your team. Which would also require flash level combat speed. But is seems you want to make a case for a bull-rushing(one straight line attack). So when Parasite goes for that bull rush he will hit a wall of molecule freezing telekinesis stopping him without fail.

Moving faster than the eye can see is FTL now?

  1. It only slows him down enough so he can see him it doesn't stop him. Flash still moves at amazing speed even in Colds "ABSOLUTE ZERO" cold field. He is also still able to manipulate his molecules and heat things up to counter it. So again Bobby's little Ice cones wont stop Parasite in his super speed plunge at Jean.

It’s not only freezing it’s also telekinesis that will hold every molecule in Parasite's body. And in any event & attempt to absorb it goes back to my above point.

Ultra has controlled his time machines mentally from other dimensions like he did in the early issues of Infinity Inc to send the young heroes back to 1940 where he took over their minds and used them against their parents before they were born. The instant things go south for my team they suddenly are gone from the current time licking their wounds for the ten seconds of time freeze only to strike anew reinvigorated and a new tact.

X-Man can and has frozen time also so I don't see why your team would get a break or a place to hide.

That of course isn't likely to happen. It wont happen because Hank gives me basically control over all the teach on the planet earth to sue against you. Ultra besides his mental and physical powers has many amazing devices he can use not least of which is the mole machine that has given him complete control over all active Volcanoes on the planet. Teleporters that he has used to teleport himself to safety when he was almost lost. Devices he has used to change or upset the cosmic balance and remove some of his enemies from existence. Combine this with Parasite who by the very nature of his existence will slowly absorb the powers and very life essence of your team and I am assured of Victory.

Technology is useless against someone who can freeze the whole planet & fusion core explosions with a thought. Also Cyborg superman has no defense against X-Man so I doubt Cyborg Superman doing anything.

Where exactly will safely be when they have telepaths an a elemental who can effectively uses water to see.

How can changing cosmic balance relevant when reality warping is prohibited?

Not sure why Parasite will not be a powerless vegetable but I'm open to ideas.

#15 Posted by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

Voting!

#16 Posted by HigorM (3681 posts) - - Show Bio

Vote goes to @beatboks1 sounds more convincing at the end of the day..

#17 Posted by Cjdavis103 (8915 posts) - - Show Bio
#18 Edited by boschePG (2248 posts) - - Show Bio

vote goes to beatboks1

the source wall comment about Henshaw was good

#19 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (4294 posts) - - Show Bio

Absolutely fantastic debate, I am in utter awe. I am going to analze this to learn from and enhance my debating skills. I need to reread this to make a decision in voting however but I do want to say.....bravo gentlemen.

#20 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (4294 posts) - - Show Bio

awwww hell. @beatboks1: has my vote, but only by a VERY slight margin....i almost voted a draw (can we do that?). @mr_ingenuity: great debate man, excellent job

#21 Posted by sophia89 (3499 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: has my vote.

@beatboks1 didnt explain how his team will deal with time slowing down,and absolute 0tempture.

both of them fought pretty good though,but mr ing just convinsed me better.

#22 Posted by beatboks1 (7071 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: Glad this ended up a lot closer than the votes started out, a landslide would not have been representative of the debate IMO.

#23 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (7389 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: Thanks for the kind words. Congrats on the win.