@thetruebarryallen: meh, I'd much rather you go first considering I know very little of Sue and you know a lot about my characters and because I have some other stuff to work on.
@thenewbluebeetle007: I mean I could say the same exact thing about me knowing nothing about Donna :3 If you really want me to I'll go first, but let it be known that I asked you first :P
@thenewbluebeetle007: Haha, it's fine. I'll try and have a post up by tomorrow but I'm moving out of my college dorm tomorrow so I might not be able to get to it until Sunday :3
Pre 52/New 52 Donna Troy and Pre 52/New 52 Firestorm - represented by TNBB
Introductions
Firestorm
Bio // Character History:
Football player Ronnie Raymond and nuclear physicist Martin Stein were fused as a result of an accident in Stein's lab, thus creating the entity known as Firestorm. An extraordinarily powerful being, Firestorm could manipulate non-organic matter, fly at astounding speeds, and spew flames from his body. Frequent banter between Stein and Raymond was a hallmark of their adventures. Firestorm was a member of the Justice League of America.
Firestorm has been a member of the Justice League, and one of their most powerful members. He's fought the highest order of team-busters including Despero, Darkseid, and Anti-Monitor, and sometimes even defeating them. In this debate, I will demonstrate on why Nova Prime, though powerful, has nothing on the Nuclear Man.
Powers and Abilities:
The Firestorm Matrix has the energy of a big bang itself, and primarily it is used to restructure matter. However, everything is made up of matter, so with the right tweaks, a host of other powers become readily accessible to Firestorm as well.
Transmutation
Size Shifting
Flight
Intangibility
Temperature Control
Enhanced Physiology
Minor telekinesis
Energy control
Teleportation
Donna Troy
Bio: Donna Troy, alias Wonder Girl was created to be a playmate for the youngWonder Woman by the sorceress Magala, who used a magical mirror to create a duplicate of Diana, though with her own personality. She was abducted by Dark Angel (who mistook her for the real Diana) who cursed her to experience a cycle of countless tragic lives, given the name Donna Troy as a cruel joke to her origins. But it would not be until the intervention of Wonder Woman, Hippolyta, and the Flash years later that she would learn this.
Donna had two sets of parents, each of whom gave her up to orphanages. Eventually there was a fire, and the goddess Rhea saved her. Donna developed superpowers, and became one of the founding members of the Teen Titans, even suggesting their name. With the Teen Titans, she faced numerous powerful threats such as Team Titans and Indigo.
After dying at the hands of a Superman robot, she was brought back by the Titans of Myth so that she could be their goddess. She later became a member of the New Justice League, along with Batman (Grayson), Jade, Jesse Quick, Starman, and Congorilla, becoming a fan favorite in that role. Here, she fought immensely powerful enemies, such as Eclipso and Starheart Alan Scott - two immensely powerful magical beings - so it's safe to say that she has experience with magic.
Powers and Abilities:
Superhuman Strength
Superhuman Speed
Superhuman Durability
Accelerated Healing
Flight
Gear:
Lasso of Persuasion: With this powerful magical item, Donna can make anyone do what she tells them, provided her willpower exceeds theirs.
Amazon Armor
Bracelets of Submission: Indestructible Steel Cuffs that are worn by all Amazonian women. You remember Wonder Woman blocking the Omega Beams? Yeah, Donna has the same bracelets.
Abilities:
Donna is an excellent H2H Combatant, good enough to hold her own against Wonder Woman and Superwoman, an alternate reality version of Diana
Initial Considerations // Canon Meetings
Without even seeing your first post, here are some initial things we should consider.
VS Dr. Light
Firestorm and Dr. Light only have one canon fight, so to speak, that being in Justice League of America, Volume 2, Issue 15.
First, I must provide some context to the scan.
The story is a classic Luthor and Injustice League vs. JLA tale. Luthor and his team had effectively captured the entire Justice League of America, including Superman, Wonder Woman, and the like. Luthor was about to kill Superman when Firestorm, who hadjust gotten out of the hospital after being Jokerized by a venom that was specifically designed for him.
And despite being in no shape to fight, much less take on the Legion of Doom on his lonesome, he did exactly that, holding them off (and being badass) long enough for the League to get free.
The relevance to the fight is in the fourth panel. In this weakened state, Firestorm was EASILY able to react to Dr. Light's blast, and deflect it with his shields.
And thus, I seriously doubt a speed-blitz scenario will be valid here, because Donna certainly has prodigious speed herself.
In Titans, Volume 2, Issue 7, Donna blitzes a Jericho-possessed Match, who is a Superboy clone, and deflects his heat vision. Because of these feats, Dr. Light's advantage, being the speed of light and all, is effectively negated.
Firestorm and Donna have read the JLA files on Dr. Light, and they're both friends with Kimiyo Hoshi, the female Dr. Light, who is well acquainted with Arthur, considering that he drained her of her powers in Green Arrow Volume 3, Issue 54.
And Firestorm doesn't take too kindly to people who hurt Hoshi.
"If Shadow Thief hurt her, I'm going to kill him."
I believe that this indicates that Firestorm could very well go for the kill against Light in this scenario, considering that he knows about his relationship with Kimiyo.
And although he didn't kill Shadow Thief because of some "blackening of the soul" or whatever, it was only because he hadn't killed before and didn't want to take on that burden. However, Jason believes that he was an accomplice in the murder of his girlfriend in Blackest Night, and thus, because his soul has already been stained, he won't hesitate to kill again, especially because of Dr. Light's history of Rape and his role in the death of Ronnie Raymond.
VS Invisible Woman
Sue isn't really going to be a problem here either. I seem to recall you saying (in the previous round against PCB) that Dr. Light would start in his light form because his N52 version does even though his P52 version has far more appearances, because it's composite. So, I'm going to apply the same logic here and say that Donna is going to speedblitz Sue because she lacks morals in the New 52 (slaughtered a group of men without hesitation).
I'll then apply her feat of speed-blitzing Match, shown above, to validate a speed-blitz scenario. She could easily take out Sue before Invisible Woman can react.
Her shields are quite powerful, as I'm sure many Viners are aware of.
However, we don't need to get past her shields to win.
Observe her shield:
You see, the shield is just a bubble that prevents anything on the outside from getting in. However, there is still air inside for Sue to breathe out of.
And that means that Firestorm can transmute said air into something that detrimental.
While I don't think that he would kill Sue in character, it'd be perfectly valid to transmute the air into, say, anesthetic gas like he did above, or any other gas that would result in a KO. As far as I can tell, Sue has no defense for this.
Summary
My team can react to Dr. Light
Dr. Light will be transmuted right from the get-go
Sue will be speedblitz and KOd, possibly killed by Donna
My team is much faster than yours and your team has no defense for transmutation.
Character History: Doctor Light was a genius when it came to the field of physics; however, he realized he wasn't making enough money to justify the usage of his talents so he turned to a life of crime. Originally he used light based gadgets and weapons to fight the Justice League but eventually he gained actual powers. He was lobotomized by Zatanna after the rape of Sue Dibny which resulted in his status of being a joke villain. Doctor Light then regained his lost memories and became the threat he was always meant to be; something that surprised the Teen Titans & Justice League during their encounters.
Powers & Abilities: Doctor Light is incredibly versatile and has the following powers & abilities.
Energy Absorption
Energy Projection
Construct Creation
Force Field Creation
Flight
Invisibility
Teleportation
Duplication
He's pretty rad.
Sue Storm | 616
Character History: Sue Storm is a member of the Fantastic Four; a group of Earth based heroes who were bathed in cosmic rays and given extraordinary powers. Originally all Sue could do was turn herself invisible but over time she developed even cooler and better powers. This section really isn't that important and if y'all don't know who Sue Storm is at this point then go read some Fantastic Four!
Powers & Abilities: As I mentioned; Sue got some better powers as she developed throughout the years:
Invisibility
Force Field Generation
Looks pretty basic but has vast levels of applications that I'll demonstrate throughout this fight.
Initial Considerations // Responses To Your Considerations
The moment I heard you requested this match I began thinking about how this whole thing would go down and how our teams stack up against each other. Firestorm is a pretty fun match-up for Doctor Light and then we've got Sue and Donna. I think Donna is the weakest link here; she's got great strength, durability and speed, but other than that she's going against two INCREDIBLY powerful energy manipulators.
So; before I get any deeper into this section I'll respond to the points you've brought up thus far.
Firestorm Pt 1 | Reacting to Doctor Light
First off, Firestorm and his reaction speed.
Firestorm and Dr. Light only have one canon fight, so to speak, that being in Justice League of America, Volume 2, Issue 15.
I don't even know if I'd call that encounter a fight. The only interaction those two have during that encounter is Firestorm blocking a single blast from Doctor Light and then on the very next page we see that Batman has used his super-duper lock-picking skills to escape his confinement with the rest of the Justice League.
Then the Justice League takes care of the Injustice League. We don't even see Doctor Light get brought down by a Justice League member, he gets double crossed by Cheetah. So Firestorm didn't win or lose against that 5 second encounter with Doctor Light so I don't think it's a good foundation for assuming how a battle between these two would go.
The story is a classic Luthor and Injustice League vs. JLA tale. Luthor and his team had effectively captured the entire Justice League of America, including Superman, Wonder Woman, and the like. Luthor was about to kill Superman when Firestorm, who had just gotten out of the hospital after being Jokerized by a venom that was specifically designed for him.
This part of the context is true. Firestorm arrived and transmuted Luthor's knife to save Superman.
And despite being in no shape to fight, much less take on the Legion of Doom on his lonesome, he did exactly that, holding them off (and being badass) long enough for the League to get free.
This part is a tad hyperbolic. All Firestorm did to "take on the Legion of Doom" was to block an attack from Killer Frost and then put a shield up against Doctor Light's ice blast. It's at that point that the Justice League arrives and explains that they'll take it from there.
What does Firestorm do while the Justice League is fighting the Injustice League?
Blasts at Killer Frost who is then KO'd by Wonder Woman.
Hits Fatality with a Tennis Racket Construct.
Creates a Brick Wall Construct to try and prevent Grodd from getting to him & Black Lightning which is quickly torn through. Geo Force then opens up the ground below Grodd to remove him from the fight.
Blasts Cheetah while she's distracted by Wonder Woman & in the middle of a conversation.
So I think claiming that Firestorm took on the Injustice League by his lonesome & holding them off long enough for the JL to arrive is a bitof an exaggeration.
The relevance to the fight is in the fourth panel. In this weakened state, Firestorm was EASILY able to react to Dr. Light's blast, and deflect it with his shields.
He already had his shields up to block Killer Frost's attack when Light joined in. I wouldn't call that reacting to Doctor Light's blast. Especially since in that panel we see Doctor Light DIRECTLY next to Killer Frost so it's not like Firestorm was attacked from behind & reacted to the attack, he literally just had his shields up and Doctor Light piled on some extra power.
Donna Troy Pt 1 | Reaction to Jericho-Possessed Match
Now onto Donna Troy's reaction speeds.
And thus, I seriously doubt a speed-blitz scenario will be valid here, because Donna certainly has prodigious speed herself.
Everyone in this tournament is so hyped up on speed blitzing, who even said that would be my strategy?
In Titans, Volume 2, Issue 7, Donna blitzes a Jericho-possessed Match, who is a Superboy clone, and deflects his heat vision. Because of these feats, Dr. Light's advantage, being the speed of light and all, is effectively negated.
You jumped to conclusions incredibly quick with this one, woah. Just because Donna Troy has deflected some heat vision doesn't immediately mean her reactions are light speed and that anything Doctor Light throws at Donna is useless.
First off; Match warns Donna that he's about to fire out his heat vision, we even see it when he screams "Oh God, Donna!! Look Out!"
I mean, Match had enough time to warn Donna of the incoming projectile that it really makes Donna's "light speed reaction times" questionable. There's no doubt in my mind that it's an impressive feat, but it's not as great as you're making it out to be. Doctor Light isn't going to be the type to shout "Donna, I'm going to attack you now!" and then fire a single blast towards her front.
Character Knowledge
This one is actually pretty cool; and I'm fairly sure I have the advantage here.
Firestorm and Donna have read the JLA files on Dr. Light, and they're both friends with Kimiyo Hoshi, the female Dr. Light, who is well acquainted with Arthur, considering that he drained her of her powers in Green Arrow Volume 3, Issue 54.
They know who Doctor Light is, but Doctor Light knows who they are. He actually used to fight Donna during his early days as a Titan Villain, except during that time Donna was fighting the joke version of Doctor Light. If you ask me that'd put her at a disadvantage; the same one that all of the other Titans had when Doctor Light returned with his memories. He took on 3 rosters of Teen Titans by himself and had a field day with all of them.
The important thing to note here is that nobody on your team has ANY knowledge of Sue Storm. That's the major problem with picking two characters from the same publisher; it grants you a lack of knowledge of characters from other publishers.
Now you mentioned something about the female Doctor Light, I'm interested to see where this goes :)
And Firestorm doesn't take too kindly to people who hurt Hoshi.
Well this event happened AFTER Light had depowered Hoshi so if Firestorm wanted to get revenge on Light for hurting his friend he really missed his opportunity :)
I believe that this indicates that Firestorm could very well go for the kill against Light in this scenario, considering that he knows about his relationship with Kimiyo.
I don't.
Firestorm was talked out of killing someone because he realized he couldn't cope with the emotional burden that comes with killing another human being; regardless of their moral standpoint. The main vendetta he has against Shadow Thief is that Shadow Thief killed the original Firestorm.
Depowering one's friend & killing the original Firestorm are two VERY different levels of bad.
And although he didn't kill Shadow Thief because of some "blackening of the soul" or whatever, it was only because he hadn't killed before and didn't want to take on that burden. However, Jason believes that he was an accomplice in the murder of his girlfriend in Blackest Night, and thus, because his soul has already been stained, he won't hesitate to kill again, especially because of Dr. Light's history of Rape and his role in the death of Ronnie Raymond.
He didn't kill Shadow Thief because Hardware explained that once you make that choice you've got to live with it for the rest of your life. Even though Shadow Thief had killed the original Firestorm and was hurting Hoshi he still didn't kill him.
Jason believing he's an accomplice in a murder during Blackest Night (was this when the OG Firestorm absorbed Jason thus giving Jason no control of his actions?) is a much different concept then willingly taking the life of another. You might need to show me where this whole "blackening of the soul" thing comes in because re-reading the issue with Jason saying he wanted to kill Shadow Thief (and then not doing it) I didn't see any mention of souls or their blackening.
Lastly; Doctor Light didn't have a role in killing Ronnie Raymond. The entire League was searching for Doctor Light and some villains were fighting against the League. Doctor Light didn't do anything to Firestorm, Shadow Thief did.
Conclusion - Firestorm doesn't kill unless he loses control of his actions (such as Black Lantern Firestorm) or when he's possessed. You also keep linking Shadow Thief killing the OG Firestorm to Doctor Light claiming he had some sort of involvement.
I'm not seeing it, tbh. If this was Deathstorm you'd have a better case, but it isn't, so I don't see your hot-headed hero going for any kills here.
Donna Troy Pt 2 | Morals & Composite-ness
Onto Donna's morals.
Sue isn't really going to be a problem here either. I seem to recall you saying (in the previous round against PCB) that Dr. Light would start in his light form because his N52 version does even though his P52 version has far more appearances, because it's composite. So, I'm going to apply the same logic here and say that Donna is going to speedblitz Sue because she lacks morals in the New 52 (slaughtered a group of men without hesitation).
The reason that Doctor Light begins in his Light form is because the New 52 Version is STUCK in his Light Form; he has no human form now. It doesn't matter that Arthur has more Pre 52 appearances it's still a composite character w/composite bodies. Pre 52 can access human & light form and New 52 is only light form, that gives light form the victory 2 to 1.
Now your whole Donna business requires some context. She is currently a pawn being used by some higher ups and was created to demonstrate the true values of Themyscira. You stated that she killed a group of men, that's important because the Amazons are very anti-men. Diana was trying to change that attitude; however, some didn't agree with her. So it's more likely that Donna would try to kill Doctor Light considering he's male instead of going for Sue Storm who is female.
I'll then apply her feat of speed-blitzing Match, shown above, to validate a speed-blitz scenario. She could easily take out Sue before Invisible Woman can react.
Match warned Donna of his attack; sure she flew at him and tackled him from behind but it didn't really do much to show a superior speed.
However, we don't need to get past her shields to win.
Oh rly?
You see, the shield is just a bubble that prevents anything on the outside from getting in. However, there is still air inside for Sue to breathe out of.
Traditionally it's a bubble; however, she can control the size/shape of her constructs. Once she used her fields "drown" her foe by forcing it down his throat and into his lungs, so it can change shape.
And that means that Firestorm can transmute said air into something that detrimental.
Oh that's interesting, smart tactic.
Unfortunately Sue's field's prevent her foes from affecting ANYTHING inside of them. Sue's field has prevented Jean Grey from using TK on her even though their was space inside the bubble, it prevented all forms of manipulation. Sue's shields have also blocked a telepathic assault from Psi Lord; so telepathy couldn't get through the Force Field either even though it isn't a physical force. I see no reason why Firestorm's abilities would be able to pass through or affect anything inside of Sue's shields.
So while it was a clever tactic; it wouldn't work.
The Battle
I've addressed & countered the points you've presented here; now it's time to explain the advantages that my team has over yours.
Invisibility
Both Doctor Light & Sue Storm can use their powers to create invisibility. Doctor Light has done this to cloak himself (and other members of the Injustice League such as Grodd and Cheetah) from being seen by Superman & Vixen who were scanning the area for the Injustice League.
Reminder that Superman has some top notch Super Sight; he can scan every wavelength of the EM Spectrum. Thanks to Veshark for this scan, btw.
I don't believe that Donna Troy or Firestorm have the ability to detect Sue or Light when they've gone invisible; something they'll be doing right at the start of the fight.
You can't fight what you can see.
To further amplify the effect of your teams sight disadvantage Doctor Light can use his light absorbing powers to steal the light from your team's optic nerves. He did this against Kyle Rayner (Green Lantern) to blind him.
So not only is my team invisible and impossible to find unless you've got Super Senses better than Superman; your team also has been robbed of their sight thanks to Doctor Light absorbing the light from your optic nerves. Hopefully your team is able to fight blind.
Sue can also do this by the way. She made Wolverine's optic nerves invisible and blinded him.
Light Army
Now that your team is effectively blinded it's time to bring in some reinforcements to turn this into a stomp against your team.
In Pre 52 Doctor Light used his powers to create Soligrams which turned into the Revenge Squad to fight the JLA. He created the following JLA 'Revenge Squad' Members:
Flash
Superman
Martian Manhunter
Green Lantern (Kyle)
Wonder Woman
Aquaman
Batman w/Bat-Plane
They were able to go toe to toe with the League and even though they were defeated this was the real Justice League vs Hard Light Construct versions. This time we've got Donna Troy and Firestorm vs the Revenge Squad, plus the fact that your team has been blinded.
Is this in character for Doctor Light though? I've only brought up one case of it happening, so it's time to bring up more.
Doctor Light created Hard Light duplicates of himself in his battle against Hal Jordan
Doctor Light created Hard Light duplicates of the Teen Titans to fight Superman. They were able to completely recover from Superman's heat vision and his physical force. It's also important to note that Superman stated they were too fast when fighting them.
Doctor Light (New 52) created Hard Light duplicates of the Crime Syndicate to fight Steve Trevor.
In short; he's used the tactic in plenty of fights and he'll be using it here.
We've seen that he can create duplicates of the Justice League, Teen Titans and Crime Syndicate. These duplicates are incredibly deadly (especially against your blind team) and easily give my team a massive edge in the fight.
Energy Absorption
Firestorm's energy attacks are pretty much useless here; Doctor Light should be able to absorb them like anything else. They generate light; they're on the EM spectrum. You mentioned earlier that Doctor Light had depowered Hoshi.
I think it's important for everyone to know that Hoshi obtained her powers from the star Vega. Doctor Light absorbed all of her energy to depower her, this means that Doctor Light absorbed an entire Star's worth of energy without a problem. Firestorm may have a lot of energy, but I've never seen Light overload, in fact he was encouraging the Teen Titans to blast him with all they had when he was fighting them because all it did was power him up more.
In short; Firestorm's energy attacks become a battery for Doctor Light thus amping him more and more throughout the fight.
Conclusion
Firestorm's cannon encounter w/Doctor Light didn't do anything to give a foundation for how an actual encounter would go down.
Firestorm's reflexes are questionable in the scan you've shown because his shields were already up.
Donna's reflexes are good but she was warned by Match as he was firing his heat vision.
Firestorm's morals wouldn't have him killing a villain; even one as bad as Doctor Light.
Donna's morals would have her go for the man before trying to blitz the woman thanks to her strong amazonian roots shown in the New 52.
Your team can't find my team while they're invisible.
Your team can get blinded by Doctor Light thus making it even harder for your team to fight against mine.
Doctor Light's Hard Light duplicates/Sonigrams give my team an energy army to use against your blind team. Superman struggled against them even w/energy attacks and stated they were too fast for him.
Firestorm's energy attacks would do nothing but power up Doctor Light. He can also rob energy from Firestorm w/o Firestorm actively using it.
Sue is just an added bonus for my team as her force fields can stack w/Light's Force Fields and prevent your attacks from harming us inside. You can't transmute the air inside the shields because Sue's powers prevent outside forces from acting on her shielded environment.
Sue can use her powers to create force fields inside your teams lungs to make them faint (something she did against Wolverine) or force her energy fields down your teams throats to make them suffocate and pass out like she was doing against Evil Thing. Sue doesn't need to resort to lethal force but making you lose your air supply/trapping you in a field nullifies your team's ability to attack my own.
i signed up for the hardest path to the finals lol... two hall of fame debaters in a row. Whatever, I'll still get there ;D
It shall be fun indeed. I always love debating w/Doctor Light. He's incredibly underrated here on the boards, everyone always thinks of the super old version.
i signed up for the hardest path to the finals lol... two hall of fame debaters in a row. Whatever, I'll still get there ;D
It shall be fun indeed. I always love debating w/Doctor Light. He's incredibly underrated here on the boards, everyone always thinks of the super old version.
Dr. Light's a rapist :P
And I also enjoy rooting for the underdog. When I came onto the Vine, people were putting FS against human torch, but now I'm getting stuff like
@thenewbluebeetle007: People always pull the rape card against Dr. Light, doesn't make him any less of a threat on the battlefield. Especially when he can manipulate anything and everything your underdog can throw at him :)
@thetruebarryallen: all right... my response is going to take a while (2-3 days at the least). I need to go in meticulous depth to stand a chance against you, so I'll be reading some Fantastic Four and revisiting old Donna Troy books. That, and I have a make-your-own Lantern Corps tourney to run.
@thetruebarryallen: all right... my response is going to take a while (2-3 days at the least). I need to go in meticulous depth to stand a chance against you, so I'll be reading some Fantastic Four and revisiting old Donna Troy books. That, and I have a make-your-own Lantern Corps tourney to run.
A true statement :)
As for your journey into the F4 comics, I'll actually be doing the same thing. This is my first ever time using Sue and I hadn't read TOO much F4 before this. I take a trial by fire approach with my debates from time to time.
Best of luck with running your tournament, by the way. I was tempted to join but I have a plethora of other CV-related projects that I'm working on and wouldn't have the time for another tournament.
not as salty as you, after I crush you in votes ;D
I have found counters for everything. I'll make my post ASAP.
Don't get too cocky, kid. You're good but if your most recent CAV against HTTK is any indication you need to work on the context behind the scans you post. The reason I didn't vote in that match is because I'm tempted to see if you re-use any of the feats posted there.
@thetruebarryallen: oh, I wasn't trying to be cocky. But I'm not going to let something like that go unanswered :) I trash talk everyone, don't put any weight to it.
Also, I'm not sure which scans you thought were out of context, but the only issues out of the ones I used there were Pre-Crisis, and I can't use that here. So if you saw any Pre-Crisis ones that were out of context, would you mind PMing me with them?
@thenewbluebeetle007: I saw some Post-Crisis ones in the mix. If you use them then you'll know because I'll correct them, if you don't then I'll PM you after the debate.
@thetruebarryallen: huh, okay. This battle is kinda more of powerset vs. powerset than who can do something better.
And besides, I saw one or two out of context scans for your debate against PCB as well. And I'm not just saying that to look more knowledgable, I'm serious.
@thetruebarryallen: huh, okay. This battle is kinda more of powerset vs. powerset than who can do something better.
And besides, I saw one or two out of context scans for your debate against PCB as well. And I'm not just saying that to look more knowledgable, I'm serious.
Fantastic.
Next time call me out on them when you're evaluating the debate during the voting period or correct me if I use them out of context in this current debate.
The moment I heard you requested this match I began thinking about how this whole thing would go down and how our teams stack up against each other. Firestorm is a pretty fun match-up for Doctor Light and then we've got Sue and Donna. I think Donna is the weakest link here; she's got great strength, durability and speed, but other than that she's going against two INCREDIBLY powerful energy manipulators.
That won't matter at all; in fact, it's probably an advantage for Donna considering that she can blitz either of the two and KO or kill them before they can react.
Donna is in my opinion the biggest steal in the tournament. For one point I get a character that's faster than light and can tank blasts from the most powerful of characters, complete with a Lasso that renders one member of the opposing team useless.
So; before I get any deeper into this section I'll respond to the points you've brought up thus far.
Firestorm Pt 1 | Reacting to Doctor Light
First off, Firestorm and his reaction speed.
Firestorm and Dr. Light only have one canon fight, so to speak, that being in Justice League of America, Volume 2, Issue 15.
I don't even know if I'd call that encounter a fight. The only interaction those two have during that encounter is Firestorm blocking a single blast from Doctor Light and then on the very next page we see that Batman has used his super-duper lock-picking skills to escape his confinement with the rest of the Justice League.
Then the Justice League takes care of the Injustice League. We don't even see Doctor Light get brought down by a Justice League member, he gets double crossed by Cheetah. So Firestorm didn't win or lose against that 5 second encounter with Doctor Light so I don't think it's a good foundation for assuming how a battle between these two would go.
I fully agree with this. The reason I posted it was to show that Firestorm could react to Dr. Light, nothing more.
The story is a classic Luthor and Injustice League vs. JLA tale. Luthor and his team had effectively captured the entire Justice League of America, including Superman, Wonder Woman, and the like. Luthor was about to kill Superman when Firestorm, who had just gotten out of the hospital after being Jokerized by a venom that was specifically designed for him.
This part of the context is true. Firestorm arrived and transmuted Luthor's knife to save Superman.
And despite being in no shape to fight, much less take on the Legion of Doom on his lonesome, he did exactly that, holding them off (and being badass) long enough for the League to get free.
This part is a tad hyperbolic. All Firestorm did to "take on the Legion of Doom" was to block an attack from Killer Frost and then put a shield up against Doctor Light's ice blast. It's at that point that the Justice League arrives and explains that they'll take it from there.
You're really nitpicking this much? It has no impact on the overall debate in general.
I am happy to see that you're contesting everything. That shows that you're going all out. But this really is inconsequential.
What does Firestorm do while the Justice League is fighting the Injustice League?
Blasts at Killer Frost who is then KO'd by Wonder Woman.
Hits Fatality with a Tennis Racket Construct.
Creates a Brick Wall Construct to try and prevent Grodd from getting to him & Black Lightning which is quickly torn through. Geo Force then opens up the ground below Grodd to remove him from the fight.
Blasts Cheetah while she's distracted by Wonder Woman & in the middle of a conversation.
So I think claiming that Firestorm took on the Injustice League by his lonesome & holding them off long enough for the JL to arrive is abit of an exaggeration.
Did Firestorm take on the Injustice League on his own? Yes. Did he hold them off long enough for the JL to arrive? Yes. How is it an exaggeration?
Honestly, this is going to get trivial to a point where we argue about semantics and irrelevant technicalities, so I think it's best to leave it at that.
The relevance to the fight is in the fourth panel. In this weakened state, Firestorm was EASILY able to react to Dr. Light's blast, and deflect it with his shields.
He already had his shields up to block Killer Frost's attack when Light joined in.
This is only partially true. Firestorm had his left hand outstretched to the left to block Killer Frost's blast. Dr. Light's blast was more towards his center, and to adjust, he brought up his right hand and thus expanded the shield. So yes, he can react to and deflect Dr. Light's blast.
I wouldn't call that reacting to Doctor Light's blast. Especially since in that panel we see Doctor Light DIRECTLY next to Killer Frost so it's not like Firestorm was attacked from behind & reacted to the attack, he literally just had his shields up and Doctor Light piled on some extra power.
You make it sound as though their proximity was so close that they were no more than a few inches away, when in reality, it's clear that they're at least a few feet away and were blasting different sections of Firestorm's body.
Here's another look at the scan, for the voters' convenience:
If we continue to argue this we're essentially going to be regurgitating the same points, so I think that leaving it like that is fine.
Donna Troy Pt 1 | Reaction to Jericho-Possessed Match
Now onto Donna Troy's reaction speeds.
And thus, I seriously doubt a speed-blitz scenario will be valid here, because Donna certainly has prodigious speed herself.
Everyone in this tournament is so hyped up on speed blitzing, who even said that would be my strategy?
Just preemptive counters mate. If you're not using it, there's no need to discuss it any further.
In Titans, Volume 2, Issue 7, Donna blitzes a Jericho-possessed Match, who is a Superboy clone, and deflects his heat vision. Because of these feats, Dr. Light's advantage, being the speed of light and all, is effectively negated.
You jumped to conclusions incredibly quick with this one, woah. Just because Donna Troy has deflected some heat vision doesn't immediately mean her reactions are light speed and that anything Doctor Light throws at Donna is useless.
First off; Match warns Donna that he's about to fire out his heat vision, we even see it when he screams "Oh God, Donna!! Look Out!"
I mean, Match had enough time to warn Donna of the incoming projectile that it really makes Donna's "light speed reaction times" questionable. There's no doubt in my mind that it's an impressive feat, but it's not as great as you're making it out to be. Doctor Light isn't going to be the type to shout "Donna, I'm going to attack you now!" and then fire a single blast towards her front.
Just to put that into perspective, real-life lasers can go as fast as three hundred times the speed of light. These are comic book lasers, made by comic book people and thus likely travel at least at that the speed of light.
I'll also bring up one of Donna's better speed feats later in this post, so stay tuned!
Character Knowledge
This one is actually pretty cool;, and I'm fairly sure I have the advantage here.
Firestorm and Donna have read the JLA files on Dr. Light, and they're both friends with Kimiyo Hoshi, the female Dr. Light, who is well acquainted with Arthur, considering that he drained her of her powers in Green Arrow Volume 3, Issue 54.
They know who Doctor Light is, but Doctor Light knows who they are. He actually used to fight Donna during his early days as a Titan Villain, except during that time Donna was fighting the joke version of Doctor Light. If you ask me that'd put her at a disadvantage; the same one that all of the other Titans had when Doctor Light returned with his memories. He took on 3 rosters of Teen Titans by himself and had a field day with all of them.
You act as if Donna hasn't shown immense growth since then. Back then she used to lose to the most trivial of foes (Bogeyman), while now, she has resisted telepathy with pure willpower, seen her husband and son die and then reanimate and try to kill her, and taken on Eclipso single-handedly.
Donna's growth is so vast that comparing the two's power would be like comparing their maturity; there's no question that the elder Donna is vastly superior in every category.
Dr. Light defeats the Titans because his powerset is very specifically built to counter theirs. Without a counter to things like draining their most powerful members, the Titans can't defeat him. Meanwhile, my team has counters for everything you got, so we will be able to take Dr. Light.
The important thing to note here is that nobody on your team has ANY knowledge of Sue Storm. That's the major problem with picking two characters from the same publisher; it grants you a lack of knowledge of characters from other publishers.
True, but another thing that it grants is good teamwork. Firestorm and Donna are very familiar with one another, having teamed up during Countdown and in Firestorm's solo volume as well. They'll know how to work to their fullest abilities, with Donna using her speed and physicals while Firestorm counters Dr. Light's versatility with his own.
Dr. Light and Sue, on the other hand, couldn't be more different. One's a sociopathic rapist, and the other's a compassionate mother and faithful wife. They have no knowledge of one another and have NO teamwork. I see no reason why they would work in any kind of synchronization at all.
In addition, I don't expect Sue or Dr. Light (more so Arthur than Sue) to care if the other is hurt. Hell, if Sue was KO'd, Arthur would probably be happy that he didn't have to use his roofies.
Now you mentioned something about the female Doctor Light, I'm interested to see where this goes :)
Yes, let's break it down:
And Firestorm doesn't take too kindly to people who hurt Hoshi.
Well this event happened AFTER Light had depowered Hoshi so if Firestorm wanted to get revenge on Light for hurting his friend he really missed his opportunity :)
Your logic here is extremely fallacious. So just because Dr. Light got her powers back, Firestorm is going to forgive him for what he did to Hoshi? This makes very little sense. Firestorm is still going to be furious with Light.
I believe that this indicates that Firestorm could very well go for the kill against Light in this scenario, considering that he knows about his relationship with Kimiyo.
I don't.
Firestorm was talked out of killing someone because he realized he couldn't cope with the emotional burden that comes with killing another human being; regardless of their moral standpoint.
Firestorm has killed before, specifically in Day of Judgment Volume 1, Issue 3, where he turned the water in the body of Nebiros to cement, killing him. So the burden won't play a factor considering that he already has it.
The main vendetta he has against Shadow Thief is that Shadow Thief killed the original Firestorm.
Depowering one's friend & killing the original Firestorm are two VERY different levels of bad.
This is completely false.
The first thing he said was, "if he hurt her [Hoshi], I'll kill him."
Then after John and Gehenna are like "woah, chill," Firestorm further justifies killing him by saying he killed Ronnie.
Hurting Hoshi was the initial cause, his murder of Ronnie was just adding fuel to the already-lit flame. He literally says that he's going to kill Shadow Thief if he hurt HOSHI, not because he killed Ronnie. Jason didn't even know who Ronnie Raymond was until after Raymond's death.
Dr. Light has also hurt Hoshi. He took away her powers. Thus, it is definitely reasonable to say that Firestorm would kill him, especially considering that he has killed in the past.
And although he didn't kill Shadow Thief because of some "blackening of the soul" or whatever, it was only because he hadn't killed before and didn't want to take on that burden. However, Jason believes that he was an accomplice in the murder of his girlfriend in Blackest Night, and thus, because his soul has already been stained, he won't hesitate to kill again, especially because of Dr. Light's history of Rape and his role in the death of Ronnie Raymond.
He didn't kill Shadow Thief because Hardware explained that once you make that choice you've got to live with it for the rest of your life. Even though Shadow Thief had killed the original Firestorm and was hurting Hoshi he still didn't kill him.
Except, he has already killed in the past, multiple times; since he already has that burden there's no reason for that to factor into his morals now.
Jason believing he's an accomplice in a murder during Blackest Night (was this when the OG Firestorm absorbed Jason thus giving Jason no control of his actions?) is a much different concept then willingly taking the life of another.
Firestorm has taken peoples' lives before. Ronnie Raymond in the New 52 when he was with Pozhar, another Firestorm, showed that he was willing to do anything. Pozhar himself has killed numerous times as well.
You might need to show me where this whole "blackening of the soul" thing comes in because re-reading the issue with Jason saying he wanted to kill Shadow Thief (and then not doing it) I didn't see any mention of souls or their blackening.
They didn't use that exact terminology, but it's the exact same concept; Firestorm did not want to become like a villain and did not want the emotional burden that comes with killing.
Lastly; Doctor Light didn't have a role in killing Ronnie Raymond. The entire League was searching for Doctor Light and some villains were fighting against the League. Doctor Light didn't do anything to Firestorm, Shadow Thief did.
While I might have mis-phrased it in my previous post, Dr. Light's rape and subsequent murder of Sue Dibny were the catalyst behind the events of Identity Crisis, which was the arc in which Raymond was murdered. So he is indirectly responsible.
Conclusion - Firestorm doesn't kill unless he loses control of his actions (such as Black Lantern Firestorm) or when he's possessed. You also keep linking Shadow Thief killing the OG Firestorm to Doctor Light claiming he had some sort of involvement.
No.
Firestorm explicitly said, "if he hurt Hoshi, I'll kill him." Dr. Light hurt Hoshi. He's also a known rapist and killer. Firestorm has killed before for less than what Light did.
Conclusion: Firestorm will kill Dr. Light.
I'm not seeing it, tbh. If this was Deathstorm you'd have a better case, but it isn't, so I don't see your hot-headed hero going for any kills here.
Deathstorm (Black Lantern, not Earth-3) would solo this entire tournament simultaneously.
Donna Troy Pt 2 | Morals & Composite-ness
Onto Donna's morals.
Sue isn't really going to be a problem here either. I seem to recall you saying (in the previous round against PCB) that Dr. Light would start in his light form because his N52 version does even though his P52 version has far more appearances, because it's composite. So, I'm going to apply the same logic here and say that Donna is going to speedblitz Sue because she lacks morals in the New 52 (slaughtered a group of men without hesitation).
The reason that Doctor Light begins in his Light form is because the New 52 Version is STUCK in his Light Form; he has no human form now. It doesn't matter that Arthur has more Pre 52 appearances it's still a composite character w/composite bodies. Pre 52 can access human & light form and New 52 is only light form, that gives light form the victory 2 to 1.
I'll accept this.
Now your whole Donna business requires some context. She is currently a pawn being used by some higher ups and was created to demonstrate the true values of Themyscira.
All right, a few things wrong with this.
Donna has a grand total of four issues to her name. In 2 of those issues she appeared for less than two pages. In the others, it was pretty clear that she was in control of what she was doing. There's absolutely nothing to suggest that she's a pawn.
Donna wasn't even made by the Amazons. She was made by the Bug People (no official name as far as I know), who do not like Wonder Woman and the Amazons at all. I don't think they care about "the true values of Themyscira".
This was all shown in Wonder Woman Issues 37-40.
You stated that she killed a group of men, that's important because the Amazons are very anti-men. Diana was trying to change that attitude; however, some didn't agree with her. So it's more likely that Donna would try to kill Doctor Light considering he's male instead of going for Sue Storm who is female.
I personally don't think she'd care that much. She was perfectly ready to kill Wonder Woman during their fight, so logically, she'll be willing to kill anyone that stands against her. Generally in comics people go for people who have the same gender, so I believe that that's what would happen here.
I'll then apply her feat of speed-blitzing Match, shown above, to validate a speed-blitz scenario. She could easily take out Sue before Invisible Woman can react.
Match warned Donna of his attack; sure she flew at him and tackled him from behind but it didn't really do much to show a superior speed.
It showed speed to react to heat vision, and Donna has reacted to lasers which are easily the speed of light.
And now, to bring up a feat that will leave you in awe:
In Titans Volume 2, Issue 3, Donna manages to evade blood lusted Wally West.
Wally was ostensibly brainwashed by one of the Sons of Trigon, and was not holding back. Yet, Donna manages to escape his wrath.
And yes, Wally did resume kicking her Amazon a** after she stupidly went back down to the ground (she was brainwashed, which is why she did such a silly thing), the fact that she managed to evade this man for even a moment speaks volumes. I'm sure I don't need to give you Flash feats, either; you're a Flash expert.
So as of now, Sue is getting blitzed and knocked out rather expeditiously by Donna Troy.
However, we don't need to get past her shields to win.
Oh rly?
Yes, "rly". And just to test the waters, what would happen if Firestorm were to blast her shields? How long could they hold? Firestorm has nuclear-powered blasts. Obviously that's not going to happen given Sue's inability to properly react to the initial blitz, but I want to see some shield feats.
You see, the shield is just a bubble that prevents anything on the outside from getting in. However, there is still air inside for Sue to breathe out of.
Traditionally it's a bubble; however, she can control the size/shape of her constructs. Once she used her fields "drown" her foe by forcing it down his throat and into his lungs, so it can change shape.
It can indeed change shape, and I've seen her simulate telekinesis. However, this doesn't change the fact that the air there can be manipulated. In the Fantastic Four Annual, #25, it was shown in her fight with Sersi that while Invisible Woman herself cannot be manipulated, the particles around her absolutely can be. So, the knockout gas is still a viable option.
And that means that Firestorm can transmute said air into something that detrimental.
Oh that's interesting, smart tactic.
Thank you :)
Unfortunately Sue's field's prevent her foes from affecting ANYTHING inside of them. Sue's field has prevented Jean Grey from using TK on her even though their was space inside the bubble, it prevented all forms of manipulation. Sue's shields have also blocked a telepathic assault from Psi Lord; so telepathy couldn't get through the Force Field either even though it isn't a physical force. I see no reason why Firestorm's abilities would be able to pass through or affect anything inside of Sue's shields.
Sue Storm's fields are psionic in nature, which explains why other psionic powers such as telepathy and telekinesis cannot penetrate her fields. This also explains Sersi's inability to transmute Sue's person; Sersi's powers are psionic as well from what I've heard.
Regardless, it was shown that the air around Sue could be transmuted, and thus, the tactic stands.
So while it was a clever tactic; it wouldn't work.
It absolutely would, because it has been proven that the particles around Sue can be manipulated.
The Battle
I've addressed & countered the points you've presented here; now it's time to explain the advantages that my team has over yours.
What advantages? My team is overall faster, stronger, more durable, and more versatile. You've got nothing on them.
Invisibility
Both Doctor Light & Sue Storm can use their powers to create invisibility. Doctor Light has done this to cloak himself (and other members of the Injustice League such as Grodd and Cheetah) from being seen by Superman & Vixen who were scanning the area for the Injustice League.
As of now, Sue is getting blitzed and killed before she even knows what happened, so her impact is nonexistent. Allow me to address Doctor Light:
You're missing some very important context here.
Superman was sharing his powers with Vixen at the time (hence why Vixen was able to see through walls and the like). He was most certainly not at optimum power, and it's entirely possible his vision was affected.
In addition, by the dialogue, Superman himself did not use super-sight.
Lastly, it's entirely possible that Gorilla Grodd was aiding Dr. Light by subtly using telepathy to further mask their presence.
So all in all, the feat is wholly unreliable.
Reminder that Superman has some top notch Super Sight; he can scan every wavelength of the EM Spectrum. Thanks to Veshark for this scan, btw.
Superman didn't scan them though, and Vixen may not have scanned the entire EM spectrum as she was new to her powers and was likely at least partially unaware of their fullest extent, meaning that she may not have actually scanned the spectrum.
Finally, there's no logical explanation for Vixen not being able to see them. Dr. Light controls the electromagnetic spectrum; with Superman's powers, Vixen can analyze the entire electromagnetic spectrum. There's no scientific reason for his inability to observe Light's invisible self. So, one of the possibilities I presented MUST have been right.
So, to recap reasons why the feat isn't reliable:
Superman and Vixen were not at full power; this may have affected their vision
Grodd may have been using telepathy to help Light
Vixen may not have scanned the entire spectrum because of her inexperience with the powers
Superman didn't try to visually scan the room from the dialogue.
The writer has lowballed Superman in the past.
The feat makes no sense because Dr. Light only controls the electromagnetic spectrum, while Superman can see the entire spectrum. There's no logical reason for his failure, so one of the above 5 must be correct.
I don't believe that Donna Troy or Firestorm have the ability to detect Sue or Light when they've gone invisible; something they'll be doing right at the start of the fight.
Ah, here's where you're mistaken.
Firestorm has the ability to see across various spectra to see invisible beings.
So, Sue has already been blitzed and killed by Donna, and Firestorm can see Dr. Light. The invisibility has been negated.
To further amplify the effect of your teams sight disadvantage Doctor Light can use his light absorbing powers to steal the light from your team's optic nerves. He did this against Kyle Rayner (Green Lantern) to blind him.
So not only is my team invisible and impossible to find unless you've got Super Senses better than Superman; your team also has been robbed of their sight thanks to Doctor Light absorbing the light from your optic nerves. Hopefully your team is able to fight blind.
I've already pointed out why the "Super Senses better than Superman" thing is incorrect. Now, allow me to show why this is not going to do much to Firestorm.
Observe; Firestorm demonstrates the ability to turn things into light. Because he can do this, it's perfectly feasible to say that he could just add more light to the optic nerves of both himself and Donna; Dr. Light's blindness is not going to do anything.
Now, you may ask, "Well, Beetle, is Firestorm precise enough to actually pull of such a feat?" Well, allow me to answer with a reference to Firestorm Volume 3, Issue 9.
Here, Firestorm is able to isolate Killer Frost's metagene and disable it. If he can locate and effect a metagene throughout Killer Frost's body, he can easily locate a few optic nerves and add some light to them.
Sue can also do this by the way. She made Wolverine's optic nerves invisible and blinded him.
Look, Sue is going to be taken out before she can react by the chick who escaped from blood-lusted Wally West. And if she's not taken out, then she's going to be magically put under Donna's control. More on that later.
Light Army
Now that your team is effectively blinded it's time to bring in some reinforcements to turn this into a stomp against your team.
My team is not effectively blinded, but let's see what you've got.
In Pre 52 Doctor Light used his powers to create Soligrams which turned into the Revenge Squad to fight the JLA. He created the following JLA 'Revenge Squad' Members:
Flash
Superman
Martian Manhunter
Green Lantern (Kyle)
Wonder Woman
Aquaman
Batman w/Bat-Plane
They were able to go toe to toe with the League and even though they were defeated this was the real Justice League vs Hard Light Construct versions. This time we've got Donna Troy and Firestorm vs the Revenge Squad, plus the fact that your team has been blinded.
Truthfully, I thought you must have been referring to some other instance when I first read this, not JLA Rock of Ages, because those light constructs were pathetically weak and did not possess the powers of their League counterparts.
The "Bat-Plane" was taken out by a single bullet. "Martian Manhunter" and "Wonder Woman" were dissipated with arrow constructs. In addition, "Flash" was tagged by the real Green Arrow. By comparison, the Bat-Plane is bulletproof, MMH and Wonder Woman are each immensely durable, capable of taking hits from planet busters, and Flash is many times the speed of light. They are far weaker than the actual League.
Your light army is wholly insignificant and can be easily stopped with punches from Donna Troy. If arrows can defeat them, she can as well, with the utmost ease I might add.
In addition, it seems as though you were trying to pass them off as having the same amount of power as the actual Justice League, when they ostensibly do not.... not appreciated, my friend. Next time make sure to show the whole story instead of just the parts that benefit you.
Is this in character for Doctor Light though? I've only brought up one case of it happening, so it's time to bring up more.
Doctor Light created Hard Light duplicates of himself in his battle against Hal Jordan
Doctor Light created Hard Light duplicates of the Teen Titans to fight Superman. They were able to completely recover from Superman's heat vision and his physical force. It's also important to note that Superman stated they were too fast when fighting them.
Doctor Light (New 52) created Hard Light duplicates of the Crime Syndicate to fight Steve Trevor.
In short; he's used the tactic in plenty of fights and he'll be using it here.
I'd like to see scans of the duplicates actually doing what the Titans/Syndicate can do.
From what I've seen in the Rock of Ages storyline, they only look like the people they are modeled after, and are actually just simple beings made out of light without any special powers, nothing more. They're probably not even the speed of light considering they were unable to evade Connor Hawke's arrows.
We've seen that he can create duplicates of the Justice League, Teen Titans and Crime Syndicate. These duplicates are incredibly deadly (especially against your blind team) and easily give my team a massive edge in the fight.
Brother, it looks as though you're trying to pass these duplicates off as the real deal. They don't give you a massive edge at all; in fact, Firestorm can easily get rid of them with one of his own summons, a dragon (which he used twice as far as I've seen, once against the Parademons, and once on Apokolips):
And unlike your "light army," Firestorm's dragon actually does what a dragon is supposed to do: breathe fire. The dragon can dissipate your constructs with said fire.
Energy Absorption
Firestorm's energy attacks are pretty much useless here; Doctor Light should be able to absorb them like anything else. They generate light; they're on the EM spectrum. You mentioned earlier that Doctor Light had depowered Hoshi.
I think it's important for everyone to know that Hoshi obtained her powers from the star Vega. Doctor Light absorbed all of her energy to depower her, this means that Doctor Light absorbed an entire Star's worth of energy without a problem. Firestorm may have a lot of energy, but I've never seen Light overload, in fact he was encouraging the Teen Titans to blast him with all they had when he was fighting them because all it did was power him up more.
I also think it's important for everyone to know that Dr. Light did not absorb the entire star's energy and that you're either falsifying this or are ignorant. Arthur didn't completely de-power Hoshi, elements of her powers sporadically reappeared until she actually got them back in full.
When she got them back, she was still using Vega as a power source. So, all Dr. Light was effectively temporarily sever her ability to access the star. He did not "absorb an entire star's worth of energy" in the slightest.
In short; Firestorm's energy attacks become a battery for Doctor Light thus amping him more and more throughout the fight.
I doubt this is going to work. Firestorm has pretty good showings against energy absorbers.
In Firestorm 17, he doesn't even flinch when he was drained by one of the Parasite Twins, who had parasitic powers, and easily has enough energy to destroy an underground weapons complex while being drained.
Just for comparison, a Parasite Twin was able to drain Superman in seconds.
Now, why is this, you ask? Let's check out Brightest Day 10 to find out why...
You see, the Firestorm Matrix contains the potential energy of the Big Bang. You'll never be able to suck Firestorm dry of his energy; you'll just be pissing him off even further.
Conclusion
Firestorm's cannon encounter w/Doctor Light didn't do anything to give a foundation for how an actual encounter would go down.
It proved that his reflexes are good enough to stop Light. And besides, even if they weren't, Donna can block the blasts with her indestructible bracelets. While that encounter was inconclusive, this one would be an easy win for FS.
Firestorm's reflexes are questionable in the scan you've shown because his shields were already up.
His shields were up on his outstretched arm. They were not up on his chest, which is where Dr. Light fired. So, the feat stands.
Donna's reflexes are good but she was warned by Match as he was firing his heat vision.
She's also evaded a blood lusted Wally West. I'd say her speed is good enough to evade anything you can throw at her, and good enough to blitz and KO or kill Sue Storm.
Firestorm's morals wouldn't have him killing a villain; even one as bad as Doctor Light.
Firestorm's killed lesser villains like Nebiros in the past.
Donna's morals would have her go for the man before trying to blitz the woman thanks to her strong amazonian roots shown in the New 52.
We don't have enough information to say that. All we know is that she likes the Amazons and dislikes the fact that men live on her island. For all we know she's a strong xenophobic in general to both men and women.
Meanwhile, her Pre-52 version has been shown to take on the female opponent, as shown when she went for Jade in the fight with Eclipso.
Your team can't find my team while they're invisible.
Yes, we can.
Your team can get blinded by Doctor Light thus making it even harder for your team to fight against mine.
Firestorm can undo the blindness with ease.
Doctor Light's Hard Light duplicates/Sonigrams give my team an energy army to use against your blind team. Superman struggled against them even w/energy attacks and stated they were too fast for him.
I'm sorry, what?
If you're referring to the Rock of Ages constructs, Superman easily dealt with them.
If you're talking about the Titans one the only thing you've shown is that they're the speed of light. The only scan you've shown is him running away. In addition, I believe Superman would have a problem harming something that looks like a child considering his kind nature, so that could factor into it as well.
So basically, all we can take from your scan is that they move at the speed of light and that Superman didn't want to hurt something that looked like a child/teenager. Both are easily negated by Donna.
Kind of funny how you pointed out that I was using out of context feats in another debate but are not being entirely true to the issue yourself :/
Firestorm's energy attacks would do nothing but power up Doctor Light.
Problem is, I never said that Firestorm would blast Dr. Light.
He can also rob energy from Firestorm w/o Firestorm actively using it.
I already showed why draining would be ineffective. Firestorm contains the potential energy of a big bang, and the Parasite Twins were unable to efficiently drain him.
Sue is just an added bonus for my team as her force fields can stack w/Light's Force Fields
Your team has NO teamwork at all; this would not happen. Not only have they never met, but they're complete opposites emotionally. Stacking shields would require some teamwork and a little bit of practice, while your team has neither.
and prevent your attacks from harming us inside.
Already debunked this by referencing the Fantastic Four Annual, where Sersi was unable to transmute Sue herself (likely due to the psionic nature of Sersi's own powers), but was able to transmute the air around her. So it would absolutely work.
In addition, you haven't even proved that Sue can even react to a speedblitz by Donna, so she has no impact in the fight.
You can't transmute the air inside the shields because Sue's powers prevent outside forces from acting on her shielded environment.
No, Sue's powers, which are inherently psionic in nature, prevent outside psionic forces from acting upon them. Meanwhile, Firestorm's powers are nuclear and Donna's are magical. They can affect Sue.
Sue can use her powers to create force fields inside your teams lungs to make them faint (something she did against Wolverine)
I'm sorry, but this is not something Sue does in character at all. I've read bits of the Fantastic Four volumes and it's something that she rarely does, and only when she's extremely angry. For example, she didn't do this to the Avengers or SHIELD when they temporarily took away her children.
or force her energy fields down your teams throats to make them suffocate and pass out like she was doing against Evil Thing.
Again, this is not something she does in character.
One thing I've noticed is that you tend to bring up your characters' higher end powers, and then say it's in character based off of two or three uses.
Dr. Light has 149 appearances, according to DC Wiki. Let's say that 100 of those involved a fight (in reality it should be way more considering that most villains are brought on specifically to combat the protagonist). That would mean that he's only used duplicates in 3% of his fights, which is not a very high percentage at all. For this reason, I doubt that Light would use constructs (not that they would be of any significance anyway).
Moving on to Sue, I'll need to see some scans of her doing what you say she'll do IN CHARACTER. As far as I've seen she's only done it when something huge is on the line or her family is at stake, neither of which apply here. For example she didn't use it against Fing Fang Foom in Fantastic Four, Volume 4.
And even if you could prove that she might have done it once or twice in character, I can bring up twenty instances where she didn't for every one you show where she did.
Sue is not using internal attacks in this fight. It's not like she could anyway; she can't react to a speed-blitz from Donna. In all honesty Donna could probably speedblitz them both given her feats.
Sue doesn't need to resort to lethal force
She is not going to use lethal force in character. She's a very caring mother, do you think she'd want her kids to grow up around a killer who murdered for an unjustified reason?
but making you lose your air supply
This is not going to happen, because Firestorm can just generate more air for us. Another thing he can do is teleport himself and Donna out, using wormholes or pure teleportation.
/trapping you in a field nullifies your team's ability to attack my own.
Sorry, what is this supposed to mean? Are you trying to say that being trapped in Sue's field is going to nullify my team's powers? I seriously doubt it, considering that:
(thanks for the scan, Son of Storm)
Here, Storm is perfectle able to "generate fierce updrafts" while "Invisible Girl surrounds all with a force field". So, even if you trap us in the bubble, Firestorm can transmute you, or just teleport us out.
Your team is out-powered & out-matched.
No, your team is blitzed and transmuted.
Kid-Friendly Methods of Victory
I figured I'd make a backup plan or two in case the transmutation/blitz combo doesn't work. From what's been presented thus far, it absolutely will work, but Batman shows us that having contingencies is never a bad thing.
I say "kid-friendly" because these methods do not require Firestorm or Donna to kill, so if you [the voters] are having doubts on whether they could take this in character, doubt no more.
Firestorm VS Dr. Light: Freezing
All right, before I get into this section I might as well show a few feats of Firestorm freezing something.
The above were just to prove that Firestorm freezes things in character. Now, allow me to highlight Firestorm's best showing in this regard and show why it will work on Dr. Light, even in light form.
In Firestorm Volume 3, he did this:
Jason and Lorraine Reilly, who were at the time Firestorm, manage to freeze Killer Frost in a block of ice whose temperatures reach absolute zero.
If Light stays in human form, he will most certainly be incapacitated. No human can survive those temperatures for very long.
However, even if Light goes into Light form, he still can't escape absolute zero!
In Justice League Volume 2, Issue 27,we see that even beings in light form are trapped by "clouds of ultracooled atoms. Essentially, this is the same thing as absolute zero, which ceases all particle movement, immobilizing anyone and anything, including photons.
So while I believe that Firestorm would kill Dr. Light, even if you don't believe me, my team still has a way to emerge victorious against Light without killing him, that being absolute zero.
Now, allow me to respond to the potential question, "is it in character?"
Well, he's done it many times without there being a special scenario or reason to do it, so I believe that it is. Even more so in this particular fight, because Martin Stein, one of the elements of the Matrix, is an award-winning physicist who knows that extremely low temperatures halt photons, and because the Matrix contains Jason Rusch, another science nut.
If they opted not to use transmutation, then they would surely recognize this as the easiest method of victory, and use it appropriately.
Donna Troy vs. Sue Storm: The Lasso of Persuasion
All right, if you [the voters] have any doubts about the validity of Donna's willingness to kill, allow me to demonstrate a non-lethal way to put down Sue Storm (and pretty much any other opponent).
Here, she defeats Etrigan and forces him to go back into his human form. As long as Donna's willpower exceeds her captive's, they have to do whatever she says. If she tells Sue to stay still while Donna punches her, then Sue is going to stay still while Donna punches her.
The Lasso has worked on Etrigan, a very powerful magical being, so I see no reason why it would not work on Sue, who has no magic powers at all.
Essentially, Sue's only hope of staying in this fight is reacting to the speedblitz. And I just don't see her reacting to the girl that escaped a bloodlusted Wally West.
Summary
Defensive
Firestorm can see invisible beings, so your invisibility is useless.
If you blind us by taking away the light in our optic nerves, then Firestorm can just recreate that light for us.
Sue doesn't use internal attacks in character, and she's getting speedblitzed anyway.
You Light constructs are pathetic and useless. Unless you think Connor Hawke can take a lightspeed being, they're not even lightspeed, and they can easily be oneshotted by Firestorm's dragon construct.
Energy absorption won't even faze Firestorm, who has shaken off the equally proficient absorption of the Parasite Twins.
The air around Sue Storm can absolutely be transmuted, shown in the Fantastic Four Annual. So knockout gas is a perfectly valid option.
Offensive
Sue cannot react to a speedblitz from Donna Troy.
Firestorm can transmute Dr. Light.
He can also freeze Dr. Light; this attack will even work on Dr. Light's light form.
Donna's Lasso can easily incapacitate one of your team members.
Firestorm's dragon constructs take down your weak light army.
All right, @thetruebarryallen: I spent a lot of time on this. Hope you're enjoying this debate, because I sure am.
The hyperbole in your arguments, it burns, it burns!
Counters // Responses To TNBB's Points
TTBA's "Nitpicking"
So you said the following when I began deconstructing your statements:
You're really nitpicking this much? It has no impact on the overall debate in general.
You claim that my nitpicking has no impact on the overall debate yet you responded to each and every point that I brought up. Furthermore, my tearing apart of your statements was to show that you over-exaggerate or tailor your statements/claims to make your characters seem far more powerful than they actually are.
The key example in your first post was you talking about how Firestorm held off the Legion of Doom long enough for the Justice League to arrive; out of the 9 villains we see standing in front of him only 2 of them even bothered to do anything about it; however, the way you were seemingly trying to spin it would've made it look as if Firestorm fought ALL of them, what else would one assume when you state that Firestorm held off the Legion of Doom on his lonesome?
Did Firestorm take on the Injustice League on his own? Yes. Did he hold them off long enough for the JL to arrive? Yes. How is it an exaggeration?
It's the way you try to spin the feat, TNBB. Technically he did "take on" the Legion of Doom on his own, but technically only TWO of them fought him and the extent of that fight was them firing a single blast at him.
So yes, I'm really nitpicking this much, especially if it helps show the voters how often you resort to over-dramatizing your characters accomplishments and abilities.
Firestorm's Reaction Times Pt. 1
Now you've said that the only reason you posted the Firestorm vs LOD scan was to show Firestorm reacting to Doctor Light; when I debunked that feat you said this:
This is only partially true. Firestorm had his left hand outstretched to the left to block Killer Frost's blast. Dr. Light's blast was more towards his center, and to adjust, he brought up his right hand and thus expanded the shield. So yes, he can react to and deflect Dr. Light's blast.
Deconstruction time:
> Killer Frost is standing directly behind Doctor Light; however, Killer Frost is standing on some ice so she appears taller.
> Killer Frost blasts Firestorm who holds his left hand up to produce a force field. We see Killer Frost's ice platform here, the same one she was standing on when she was behind Doctor Light.
> Doctor Light joins Killer Frost in blasting Firestorm. The added power of Doctor Light's blast would put more pressure on Firestorm who put his right hand up to brace himself.
From this I think we can conclude that Firestorm didn't react at all to Doctor Light. Doctor Light had been standing next to Killer Frost throughout that entire encounter and began targeting the same spot that she had been blasting at with her ice powers. If this was a feat of Doctor Light blasting Firestorm from behind while he was focused on Killer Frost and he had blocked it then it'd be a reaction feat; what you've shown is not.
This is further reinforced in the fact that Firestorm has been shown to create force fields that cover an entire entire side of his body.
Firestorm does not have the reaction speeds to deal with Doctor Light based off of the evidence you've provided.
If we continue to argue this we're essentially going to be regurgitating the same points, so I think that leaving it like that is fine.
That sounds like you not wanting to continue debating the point; however, you don't get to decide what I respond to or not. If I feel that something has been left unsaid or that you're incorrect in the perception of your feats then I'm going to bring that up. You used this same feat against HTTK in your CAV and when he called you out on it you tried to defend it the same way; however, I find myself agreeing with HTTK and wanted to continue putting pressure on the overstatement you've placed on this feat.
If you'd like to drop it at this point feel free, but I feel as if it should be known that Firestorm didn't react to Doctor Light as his force field was already up from Killer Frosts much slower blast.
Donna Troy's Reaction Times Pt. 1
Donna isn't nearly as fantastic or useful in this scenario as you think she is so lets get into her reaction times.
1. Catching up to a speeding Jeese Quick is a travel speed feat; not a combat speed feat. Regardless of this Jesse Quick is one of the slowest Speed Force users of all time and can't be compared to the likes of Barry Allen or Wally West; heck, she's even slower than Max Mercury. Lastly, it wasn't even stated how fast Jesse Quick was going in that scan and speedsters NEVER use their full potential when in a city environment for fear of hurting others. Wally West generally stays around the speed of sound (or lower) when he's in a city to prevent the sonic booms from blowing out windows, so this feat isn't that great.
Before I get onto the laser thing I need to laugh at something you posted:
Just to put that into perspective, real-life lasers can go as fast as three hundred times the speed of light. These are comic book lasers, made by comic book people and thus likely travel at least at that the speed of light.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAAAA. Oh my goodness, linking random articles that aren't even scientific journals to try and relate real life science to comic book feats is hilarious, especially when you're debating against someone whose a Science Major in college.
Now that I've regained myself it's time to give a list of all the other characters who have dodged/reacted to lasers, if you click the link it'll show you the feat:
This list could go on and on; and some of you might cry out that this was aim dodging, well, Gambit was deflecting lasers fired by Forge right back at him & Batman was able to pull out a mirror and reflect the heat vision back at it's original user.
Comic book lasers are absolutely pathetic in terms of speed, trying to claim that they're 300 times faster than light in the real world (which you interpreted incorrectly in that link you sent, they had other factors included than just a simple laser, and it was a pulse of light not a beam) is an example of your usage of hyperbole and over-exaggeration of your claims.
I'll also bring up one of Donna's better speed feats later in this post, so stay tuned!
I hope they're better than those 300 TIMES FTL LAZORS!
That was a joke in case the voters actually think I'm serious and believe that lasers move 300x FTL.
Character Knowledge (Or Lack Of)
What do we have here, lets dive in!
You act as if Donna hasn't shown immense growth since then. Back then she used to lose to the most trivial of foes (Bogeyman), while now, she has resisted telepathy with pure willpower, seen her husband and son die and then reanimate and try to kill her, and taken on Eclipso single-handedly.
Ah yes, the factor of Donna watching her son and child die is truly a factor I have underestimated. #Sarcasm
Now, onto deconstructing another feat you're presenting: Donna Troy vs Eclipso
I assume you're talking about the instance you've shown in your Donna Troy Respect Thread from Justice League of America V2 #59, this one right here:
You claim she took him on SINGLE HANDILYwhen all she did was punch him in the face... ONE SINGLE TIME. We also see Jade, Alan Scott and Starman arrive to give some assistance. It's ALSO stated that Elicpso's mind isn't completely there and that Saint Walker is helping on that front.
THEN ON THE VERY NEXT PAGE AN ENTIRE ARMY ARRIVES TO HELP:
I didn't know that an entire grouping of Jade, Starman, Cyborg, Saint Walker, Jesse Quick, Alan Scott and Kimyo Hoshi (female Dr. Light) counted as Donna Troy taking on Eclipso all by her lonesome.
Look, TNBB, if you're going to use feats or talk about how powerful your characters are please use them correctly and with proper context. I'm getting a tad tired of going into each of the issues you've cited to breakdown every feat you post :)
Donna's growth is so vast that comparing the two's power would be like comparing their maturity; there's no question that the elder Donna is vastly superior in every category.
You think Donna Troy is superior to Doctor Light? Please go make that thread on the Battle Forums and see how well that pans out for you. Don't forget to use that Eclipso feat and those 300x FTL laser feats to help prove your point.
Dr. Light defeats the Titans because his powerset is very specifically built to counter theirs. Without a counter to things like draining their most powerful members, the Titans can't defeat him. Meanwhile, my team has counters for everything you got, so we will be able to take Dr. Light.
Nah, you don't.
True, but another thing that it grants is good teamwork. Firestorm and Donna are very familiar with one another, having teamed up during Countdown and in Firestorm's solo volume as well. They'll know how to work to their fullest abilities, with Donna using her speed and physicals while Firestorm counters Dr. Light's versatility with his own.
Wow, it's almost as if you think that Firestorm stands a chance against Doctor Light. Funny, I must've read that wrong. Oh, no, wait... YOU DO THINK HE STANDS A CHANCE?!
Dr. Light and Sue, on the other hand, couldn't be more different. One's a sociopathic rapist, and the other's a compassionate mother and faithful wife. They have no knowledge of one another and have NO teamwork. I see no reason why they would work in any kind of synchronization at all.
Oh man it's almost as if someone asked the question about how teamwork factors into this Tournament to which SFW responded:
They're willing to work together. You're also under the assumption that Doctor Light randomly shouts out how he rapes people and that Sue's gonna join his list after the tournament is over. We don't need perfect teamwork on the level of the Justice League to win this; we have the teamwork required to do what I'm claiming they'll do.
In addition, I don't expect Sue or Dr. Light (more so Arthur than Sue) to care if the other is hurt. Hell, if Sue was KO'd, Arthur would probably be happy that he didn't have to use his roofies.
They're working together to fight two people who you're claiming are going to be trying to kill them. Regardless of who you're working with you'd want to have the best chances of survival; everyone knows that having a team member fighting alongside you is far more useful than letting them die right off the bat.
Also, you gonna keep making references to the time Doctor Light raped someone? It's completely irrelevant to the battle and is just bashing the character not his combat abilities.
Morals of TNBB's Team
INB4 Firestorm transmutes everyone on my team to spaghetti because he apparently kills all willy-nilly according to you.
Firestorm's Morals
INB4 Firestorm transmutes everyone on my team to spaghetti because he apparently kills all willy-nilly according to you.
Your logic here is extremely fallacious. So just because Dr. Light got her powers back, Firestorm is going to forgive him for what he did to Hoshi? This makes very little sense. Firestorm is still going to be furious with Light.
You know who else was furious with Light?
Barry Allen
Hawkman
Green Arrow (Oliver)
Black Canary
The Atom
Green Lantern (Hal)
Zatanna
EVERYONE ELSE IN THE JUSTICE LEAGUE BECAUSE WHAT HE DID TO SUE DIBNY WAS HORRIBLE
You know how many of them have resorted to killing Doctor Light (even the ones that have killed plenty of times such as Hawkman & Green Arrow) oh wait, none of them. None of them have killed Doctor Light. You're calling my logic fallacious but your own argument FOR Firestorm to kill Doctor Light is completely baseless and quite frankly hilarious.
Firestorm has killed before, specifically in Day of Judgment Volume 1, Issue 3, where he turned the water in the body of Nebiros to cement, killing him. So the burden won't play a factor considering that he already has it.
Ah yes, Nebiros, the demon god who is thousands of years old and has demon magic who was "SEEMINGLY" killed after Firestorm turned his water to cement. Killing a demon in an attempt to escape Hell with the rest of the Justice League is a much different scenario than killing Doctor Light in your second encounter with the guy even after the rest of the Justice League (who actually had major qualms with him) didn't kill him.
This is completely false.
How is what I'm saying completely false? You're the one over here posting feats willy nilly without true and proper context behind them; I think as it stands I've got far more truth behind my arguments than you do.
The first thing he said was, "if he hurt her [Hoshi], I'll kill him."
Then after John and Gehenna are like "woah, chill," Firestorm further justifies killing him by saying he killed Ronnie. Hurting Hoshi was the initial cause, his murder of Ronnie was just adding fuel to the already-lit flame. He literally says that he's going to kill Shadow Thief if he hurt HOSHI, not because he killed Ronnie. Jason didn't even know who Ronnie Raymond was until after Raymond's death. Dr. Light has also hurt Hoshi. He took away her powers. Thus, it is definitely reasonable to say that Firestorm would kill him, especially considering that he has killed in the past.
Yeah; every time Jason says he's going to kill someone everyone tells him to chill because it's completely out of character and absurd, even those close to him realize that. Lets look at the scan:
> I'm angry and if he hurt Hoshi then I'm going to kill him
> We should kill him because he tried to destroy the world and he killed Ronnie!
Then who did Jason kill? Nobody, he didn't kill Shadow Thief even though had his temper tantrum about it. Real good argument for Firestorm's kill switch you've got here.
Except, he has already killed in the past, multiple times; since he already has that burden there's no reason for that to factor into his morals now.
You've shown him POTENTIALLY killing a Demon from Hell. Much different. People go hunting and kill animals for food, but that doesn't mean that those same people are capable of shooting another human being just because they're mad and have "killed" before.
They didn't use that exact terminology, but it's the exact same concept; Firestorm did not want to become like a villain and did not want the emotional burden that comes with killing.
So he didn't kill him because he didn't want the emotional burden that comes with killing. So why is he killing in this battle you're having with me?
While I might have mis-phrased it in my previous post, Dr. Light's rape and subsequent murder of Sue Dibny were the catalyst behind the events of Identity Crisis, which was the arc in which Raymond was murdered. So he is indirectly responsible.
By that sense of logic Doctor Light's mother is indirectly responsible for the rape of Sue Dibny (her murder was caused by Atom's significant other, not Doctor Light, but I guess INDIRECTLY it was) and the events of Identity Crisis, which is also the arc in which Ronnie Raymond was murdered.
So Firestorm is now entirely justified to kill Doctor Light's mother, because she's indirectly responsible for all of that.
... and you call my logic fallacious? Bah.
Firestorm explicitly said, "if he hurt Hoshi, I'll kill him." Dr. Light hurt Hoshi. He's also a known rapist and killer. Firestorm has killed before for less than what Light did.
Hawkman was present when Sue Dibny was raped and has killed entire legions of foes. Hawkman did not instantly plant his mace in Doctor Light's skull even though he was absolutely furious at what went down. He wanted to, but he didn't.
Firestorm throwing a temper tantrum and claiming he'll kill someone (and then not following through on it) is not evidence that his morals are on berserker kill mode.
Conclusion: Your logic is flawed and Firestorm isn't going to just start killing Doctor Light OR Sue.
Donna Troy's Morals
Lets see what you've to say about this:
All right, a few things wrong with this.
Oh is there?
Donna has a grand total of four issues to her name. In 2 of those issues she appeared for less than two pages. In the others, it was pretty clear that she was in control of what she was doing. There's absolutely nothing to suggest that she's a pawn.
Nothing to suggest she's being used as a pawn?
I guess being created against your will by some villains for the purpose of replacing Wonder Woman as Queen doesn't qualify for being used as a pawn/tool. Oh, I guess Wonder Woman was just bonkers when she also stated that Donna was only a child and doesn't realize that she's just a pawn.
She's a pawn, yo.
Donna wasn't even made by the Amazons. She was made by the Bug People (no official name as far as I know), who do not like Wonder Woman and the Amazons at all. I don't think they care about "the true values of Themyscira
She was made to replace Wonder Woman. She has a strong hatred towards men as she's trying to prove to the Amazons that she should be their queen.
I personally don't think she'd care that much. She was perfectly ready to kill Wonder Woman during their fight, so logically, she'll be willing to kill anyone that stands against her. Generally in comics people go for people who have the same gender, so I believe that that's what would happen here.
Wonder Woman is the person who she's trying to replace; it makes sense to kill the one you're replacing especially when you've been told lies about how awful Wonder Woman is. Also, what are you talking about with people typically fight others of the same gender, doesn't that seem like a radical statement to you?
Anyways, I don't see your team killing anyone; Donna might want to kill Doctor Light because he's a man, but that's really all the justification I can see here.
Donna Troy Reaction Speed Pt. 2
Time to see that incredible feat you mentioned you'd be displaying later on in the fight:
It showed speed to react to heat vision, and Donna has reacted to lasers which are easily the speed of light.
Oh gosh the laser argument again. I already explained how silly that is.
And now, to bring up a feat that will leave you in awe
I'll be in awe if you use proper context for the feat.
In Titans Volume 2, Issue 3, Donna manages to evade blood lusted Wally West.
It's actually in Titans V2 Issue 4.
Wally was ostensibly brainwashed by one of the Sons of Trigon, and was not holding back. Yet, Donna manages to escape his wrath.
Donna was also brainwashed by that very same son of Trigon. I also don't know why you're saying that Wally was 'ostensibly' brainwashed, it was pretty clear he was under mind control.
And yes, Wally did resume kicking her Amazon a** after she stupidly went back down to the ground (she was brainwashed, which is why she did such a silly thing), the fact that she managed to evade this man for even a moment speaks volumes. I'm sure I don't need to give you Flash feats, either; you're a Flash expert.
Being brainwashed doesn't equal being bloodlusted. We also don't know how fast Wally was moving, it was fast, but it wasn't close to light speed or anything of the sort. In this same issue Nightwing is able to put a bag over Wally's head.
You're right about me being a Flash expert though, and I have to tell you Flash hardly ever goes all out. Wally is super impressive here on the battle forums because the rules state characters are fighting to the best of their abilities and Wally has a BUNCH of high showings. A brainwashed Wally vs a brainwashed Donna fighting aren't the height of either of their powers and Donna didn't do well in that fight at ALL.
So as of now, Sue is getting blitzed and knocked out rather expeditiously by Donna Troy.
Lol, no.
Sue's Force Field
Finally get to talk about the Invisible Woman again; even though Doctor Light could solo your team.
Yes, "rly". And just to test the waters, what would happen if Firestorm were to blast her shields? How long could they hold? Firestorm has nuclear-powered blasts. Obviously that's not going to happen given Sue's inability to properly react to the initial blitz, but I want to see some shield feats.
You want some shield feats, I'll give you some shield feats:
Scan 1 - Sue protects herself & others from Blackheart's blasts.
Scan 2 - Sue protects herself from Silver Surfer's blasts.
Scans 3 & 4 - Two different showings of Sue protecting herself and others from Human Torch going Supernova.
Your nuclear blasts are cool; but a Super Nova is generally around 100 Billion Kelvin in temperature; which is 6000 times the temperature of the core of a sun. Here's my scientific proof of that one:
Should be enough to prove that Sue can easily withstand your bombardment.
It can indeed change shape, and I've seen her simulate telekinesis. However, this doesn't change the fact that the air there can be manipulated. In the Fantastic Four Annual, #25, it was shown in her fight with Sersi that while Invisible Woman herself cannot be manipulated, the particles around her absolutely can be. So, the knockout gas is still a viable option.
So you agree that Sue can manipulate the size and shape of her force field; so it's possible that Sue can modify her field to be more personal. There's also the fact that Doctor Light is capable of making force fields and could add a personal layer to her field to prevent Firestorm's manipulation from getting to her.
Now you also brought up Fantastic Four Annual #25, lets look at that:
> Sue had her field up as noted by Sersi. She also states that she can't use her matter transformations directly on her because of the field, but why doesn't she manipulate the water Sue is standing in that is also contained in her field? Is it perhaps because Sue's field prevents molecular manipulation, I think yes.
> Sue eventually goes invisible, drops her field and kicks Sersi. Sersi can't located Sue because of this.
> Sue's shield is still down from earlier and Sue is still invisible. In an attempt to locate Sue we see Sersi create a dust storm, it's quite clear that Sue's field is still down at this point. Sue then KO's Sersi before she can do anything with the dust.
So basically we see that Sersi can't manipulate Sue (or anything inside her field) while her field is up. Sersi then has trouble dealing with a shield-less invisible Sue and creates a dust storm to try and find her; however, even when she locates her she fails.
Your gas is not a viable option at all.
Thank you :)
No problem, just a shame it's not going to work out for you as I've explained above.
Sue Storm's fields are psionic in nature, which explains why other psionic powers such as telepathy and telekinesis cannot penetrate her fields. This also explains Sersi's inability to transmute Sue's person; Sersi's powers are psionic as well from what I've heard.
Sue's abilities tap into hyperspace; not psychic energy.
Regardless, it was shown that the air around Sue could be transmuted, and thus, the tactic stands.
The air around Sue was only transmuted after Sue dropped her shield and went for the kick. Your tactic has been effectively nullified.
It absolutely would, because it has been proven that the particles around Sue can be manipulated.
Nooooope.
DA Battle Counters
Onto the counters of my offensive tactics I guess.
What advantages? My team is overall faster, stronger, more durable, and more versatile. You've got nothing on them.
That's another over-statement. Unless we're using your incorrect interpretations of your characters (such as your FTL Firestorm) or your (FASTER THAN LAZORS & BEATING UP ECLIPSO Donna Troy) then everything you've said here is pretty much false. I guess you MIGHT have more versatility with your team but you show an inability to actually deal with anything I've presented. Physical strength means nothing against a team who can provide some top notch force fields and go intangible, mate. Your speed arguments have also been laughable thus far.
I've got more on them than there is white on rice.
Invisibility
This sentence is here for formatting purposes.
As of now, Sue is getting blitzed and killed before she even knows what happened, so her impact is nonexistent. Allow me to address Doctor Light:
Sue isn't getting blitzed. I had this same debate last round with PCB and I had to show that Sue has reacted in milliseconds to protect herself and several others when a ship exploded. She also reacted to Ragnarok's lightning attacks (evil version of Thor) and lightning moves at 3,700 Miles Per Second. Sue has the reaction time to react to your blitz & shield herself; as does Doctor Light.
You're missing some very important context here.
Now YOU'RE going to lecture ME on context? I might die of a laugh attack before this debate ends.
Superman was sharing his powers with Vixen at the time (hence why Vixen was able to see through walls and the like). He was most certainly not at optimum power, and it's entirely possible his vision was affected.
Vixen also had his powers; there is no reason she wouldn't have the same vision abilities that Superman has displayed time and time again. There was also nothing ever shown where Superman's vision was reduced or affected.
In addition, by the dialogue, Superman himself did not use super-sight.
He never says he isn't using his super-sight. He instructs Vixen to start searching around; look through the walls too, while he also searches. He then realizes he hears a heart-beat and asks Vixen if she hears it too.
Lastly, it's entirely possible that Gorilla Grodd was aiding Dr. Light by subtly using telepathy to further mask their presence.
Your argument is literally that because Gorilla Grodd was there that he could have been using telepathy to prevent them from being seen. If Grodd was actively using his telepathy then Superman, Vixen and Black Canary would've been dropped in an instant, don't be a goober.
So all in all, the feat is wholly unreliable.
At this point you interpretation of any feat is rather unreliable, tbh. Dunno why you're trying to give me the context lecture.
Finally, there's no logical explanation for Vixen not being able to see them. Dr. Light controls the electromagnetic spectrum; with Superman's powers, Vixen can analyze the entire electromagnetic spectrum. There's no scientific reason for his inability to observe Light's invisible self. So, one of the possibilities I presented MUST have been right.
The scientific reason for their inability to observe Doctor Light while he's activated his cloaking is because his cloaking is superior to their sight. It's really as easy as that.
Here are reasons why you're reasons are false:
There is nothing to suggest that their vision was impaired.
Grodd's telepathy would've been able to drop Superman, Vixen and Black Canary. He wouldn't just use it for simple cloaking assistance, especially when Doctor Light had it covered.
Vixen's inexperience doesn't matter when you have Superman also doing the same thing she's doing.
Superman did try and scan the room. Just because he didn't state "I'M GONNA USE MY SUPER SIGHT NOW" doesn't mean he wasn't. They were actively searching for people at that moment in time.
Ah yes; the best way to low-ball Superman is to make him bad with his Super Sight. That'll show my hatred for this character!
The feat makes plenty of sense; you're just looking for excuses at this point.
Next?
Firestorm has the ability to see across various spectra to see invisible beings.
So does Superman, but it didn't work out for him last time :)
Regardless we can still steal the light from your optic nerves or render your optic nerves invisible.
I've already pointed out why the "Super Senses better than Superman" thing is incorrect. Now, allow me to show why this is not going to do much to Firestorm.
You didn't really point out anything, but lets see what else Firestorm can do.
Observe; Firestorm demonstrates the ability to turn things into light. Because he can do this, it's perfectly feasible to say that he could just add more light to the optic nerves of both himself and Donna; Dr. Light's blindness is not going to do anything.
Yes. Lets generate more light so Doctor Light can continue to absorb it thus further amplifying his own abilities. That doesn't seem like a very good idea. If you add more light then Doctor Light can still absorb it and if Invisible Woman or Doctor Light use their invisibility powers on your teams optic nerves then no amount of light is going to help make them see.
Look, Sue is going to be taken out before she can react by the chick who escaped from blood-lusted Wally West. And if she's not taken out, then she's going to be magically put under Donna's control. More on that later.
Look, Sue isn't going to be taken out before she can react because she has the reaction speeds to deal with Donna Troy. Being mind controlled doesn't mean you're blood-lusted nor does it mean that Wally West was using his maximum speed, if he was then EVERYONE there would've been killed in an instant. In that same comic Nightwing was able to ambush Wally and place a bag over his head. If we use your logic then Nightwing would be able to blitz Sue Storm and we all know that isn't true.
Also; if you're thinking of using your lasso on my team that's a huge mistake.
Light Army
Now that I've shown how useless your argument against being blinded is lets move on.
Truthfully, I thought you must have been referring to some other instance when I first read this, not JLA Rock of Ages, because those light constructs were pathetically weak and did not possess the powers of their League counterparts.
Oh, really? Pathetically weak?
The "Bat-Plane" was taken out by a single bullet. "Martian Manhunter" and "Wonder Woman" were dissipated with arrow constructs. In addition, "Flash" was tagged by the real Green Arrow. By comparison, the Bat-Plane is bulletproof, MMH and Wonder Woman are each immensely durable, capable of taking hits from planet busters, and Flash is many times the speed of light. They are far weaker than the actual League.
This is all because Batman scanned them, found their energy signals and informed the rest of the League that they needed to use a counter-frequency to harm them, they even explain this.
Your light army is wholly insignificant and can be easily stopped with punches from Donna Troy. If arrows can defeat them, she can as well, with the utmost ease I might add.
Physical punches aren't short wave light attacks. Donna Troy's punches are absolutely useless.
In addition, it seems as though you were trying to pass them off as having the same amount of power as the actual Justice League, when they ostensibly do not.... not appreciated, my friend. Next time make sure to show the whole story instead of just the parts that benefit you.
I wasn't trying to pass them off as having the same power of the League, I even stated that the Revenge Squad was defeated by the Justice League.
Lastly; don't give me a lecture on context and only using the parts of a comic that benefit me when you've been guilty of that throughout this entire debate. I'm not new to debating, TNBB, and I might be one of the first users you've debated against who can actually call you out on all the incorrect statements and images you've been posting throughout this fight.
I'd like to see scans of the duplicates actually doing what the Titans/Syndicate can do.
The Syndicate Constructs were hard light constructs that could be manipulated and created by Doctor Light. They were used to restrain (and burn) Killer Frost before Steve Trevor told Doctor Light that the people who Light was working for were lying to him.
Think of a Green Lantern's Constructs and how those work, pretty easy concept if you ask me.
As for the Titans they were portions of energy that he contained in a holographic projector so Doctor Light could simultaneously attack the Watchtower and the Fortress of Solitude. They were immune to physical attacks and Superman's energy attacks only stopped them for a brief second before they'd re-form. They were too fast for Superman to out run (as they're beings made of light) and he was only able to defeat them by amplifying his heat vision by firing through a giant prism to intensify the heat.
The main reason these duplicates are even being mentioned in this fight is because they can easily serve as a distraction for you team; plus you're blind so you can't fight against them. We still have Doctor Light and Sue who can hit you with everything they've got to bring you down with ease.
From what I've seen in the Rock of Ages storyline, they only look like the people they are modeled after, and are actually just simple beings made out of light without any special powers, nothing more. They're probably not even the speed of light considering they were unable to evade Connor Hawke's arrows.
The ROA ones were the originals. They were also being controlled by members of the Injustice League at the time using headsets. Their combat experience is to be pinned on whoever was manipulating them at the time.
The reason why Flash was tagged was because Conner noticed that he kept running in a pattern and he picked out the pattern to predict where the Revenge-Flash would be.
Brother, it looks as though you're trying to pass these duplicates off as the real deal. They don't give you a massive edge at all; in fact, Firestorm can easily get rid of them with one of his own summons, a dragon (which he used twice as far as I've seen, once against the Parademons, and once on Apokolips):
I was never trying to pass these duplicates off as equals in power to the original League. They do give us an edge; your Dragon is useless because Doctor Light can teleport the dragon away, he's displayed teleportation plenty of times.
And unlike your "light army," Firestorm's dragon actually does what a dragon is supposed to do: breathe fire. The dragon can dissipate your constructs with said fire.
Fire = Light Generation = EM Spectrum = Under Light's Control. Thanks for the extra fire-power.
Energy Absorption
Doctor Light's massive edge; lets see how you retaliate.
I also think it's important for everyone to know that Dr. Light did not absorb the entire star's energy and that you're either falsifying this or are ignorant. Arthur didn't completely de-power Hoshi, elements of her powers sporadically reappeared until she actually got them back in full.
He absorbed her energy to depower her. Her power source was a star. He absorbed enough energy to depower her even though her energy source WAS A STAR. Her powers EVENTUALLY came back but not before she had to resort to using a power suit to simulate her abilities.
When she got them back, she was still using Vega as a power source. So, all Dr. Light was effectively temporarily sever her ability to access the star. He did not "absorb an entire star's worth of energy" in the slightest.
Doctor Light was able to absorb enough energy to sever her tie to her power source, a Star. He absorbed enough of the Star's energy. I might've been incorrect in my initial statement and that's the only thing I've been incorrect about thus far.
Good correction on your part; however, Doctor Light still has no upper limit to how much energy he can absorb. I've never seen him overload.
In Firestorm 17, he doesn't even flinch when he was drained by one of the Parasite Twins, who had parasitic powers, and easily has enough energy to destroy an underground weapons complex while being drained.
He destroyed the weapons complex because his single blast hit a primary power node.
You see, the Firestorm Matrix contains the potential energy of the Big Bang. You'll never be able to suck Firestorm dry of his energy; you'll just be pissing him off even further.
Contains the POTENTIAL energy of the Big Bang. All the energy I steal from Firestorm weakens him ever-so-slightly and amplifies Doctor Light. I'll piss Firestorm off all I want, he's blind and now being used to increase my own abilities. I just thank you for giving Doctor Light such a huge battery.
Conclusions
In conclusion:
It proved that his reflexes are good enough to stop Light. And besides, even if they weren't, Donna can block the blasts with her indestructible bracelets. While that encounter was inconclusive, this one would be an easy win for FS.
No, it didn't. You're using the feat incorrectly and I've explained that. Donna is going to have a heck of a time blocking blasts when her optic nerves are invisible. This is an easy win for me, not you.
She's also evaded a blood lusted Wally West. I'd say her speed is good enough to evade anything you can throw at her, and good enough to blitz and KO or kill Sue Storm.
ABC logic at it's finest. I've already explained why this is untrue.
Firestorm's killed lesser villains like Nebiros in the past.
Killing a demon to escape hell isn't nearly the same situation.
I'm not going to quote all the bits about you un-doing the blindness because it'd just be me talking about how horribly wrong you are.
Superman absorbed one and the rest of the Justice League had to use energy-based attacks to deal with them. When Superman faced off against the improved versions of them the energy attack route didn't work until he amplified his power.
If you're talking about the Titans one the only thing you've shown is that they're the speed of light. The only scan you've shown is him running away. In addition, I believe Superman would have a problem harming something that looks like a child considering his kind nature, so that could factor into it as well.
They're the speed of light, immune to physical damage and can resist energy attacks to a high degree. Your argument about Superman having a hard time harming something that looks like a child is incredibly weak and absolutely laughable. If that's the best you've got at this point then we might as well go to votes soon.
So basically, all we can take from your scan is that they move at the speed of light and that Superman didn't want to hurt something that looked like a child/teenager. Both are easily negated by Donna.
PHYSICAL ATTACKS WON'T DO ANYTHING. Uhhnnn!
Kind of funny how you pointed out that I was using out of context feats in another debate but are not being entirely true to the issue yourself :/
I'm going to write a detailed post on this right here:
You've been incorrectly citing issues in this debate. The Titans issue citation was wrong and so was your Day of Vengeance citation.
You tailored your words to make it seem as if Firestorm actually took on the Injustice League when he only took a single blast from Killer Frost and Doctor Light.
You claimed that Donna Troy can take on Eclipso when in the very next page she receives help to take him down.
In your debate against HTTK you talked about Firestorm having higher durability than Orion because Orion got 1 shotted by Kalibek when the entire Orion/Kalibek fight happened OFF PANEL.
You claimed that while being drained by the Parasite Twins Firestorm had enough energy to blow up a weapons factory; all he did was fire a single blast at the PRIMARY POWER NODE.
Your claim about Sersi being able to manipulate matter inside of Sue's field was false and I showed that.
You've also tried to say that I was attempting to pass the light duplicates off as the real deal; I've never done or said such thing.
I said the Revenge Squad went toe to toe with the Justice League; they did.
I said the Revenge Squad was defeated by the Justice League; they were.
I did NOT say the Revenge Squad (or any other duplicates) had the exact same statistics or power levels of the images they were duplicating.
You have NO authority to discuss how I haven't been "true to the issue" in this debate when you've been throwing out of context feats and panels left and right. I'm sorry if I seem like I'm being a huge A-Hole in this very moment but if you're going to accuse me of something make sure you're actually ACCURATE about your accusations.
Moving on.
I already showed why draining would be ineffective. Firestorm contains the potential energy of a big bang, and the Parasite Twins were unable to efficiently drain him.
Parasite Twins are cool; but he eventually broke free of their grasp and they had to be touching Firestorm to drain his powers. Doctor Light can do so without making contact. Throughout the entire fight he can be absorbing Firestorm's power the same way he did Superboy to rip his heat vision out of his body.
Thanks for the energy, Firestorm.
Your team has NO teamwork at all; this would not happen. Not only have they never met, but they're complete opposites emotionally. Stacking shields would require some teamwork and a little bit of practice, while your team has neither.
My team is willing to work together for this fight and Sue knows nothing of Doctor Light. Sue can create a force field, Doctor Light can create another force field. It's not that hard to create a force field around another force field, dude. That's not something you'd have to practice together for days on end.
Already debunked this by referencing the Fantastic Four Annual, where Sersi was unable to transmute Sue herself (likely due to the psionic nature of Sersi's own powers), but was able to transmute the air around her. So it would absolutely work.
Already debunked this by actually showing the scans from the Fantastic Four annual. It wouldn't work.
No, Sue's powers, which are inherently psionic in nature, prevent outside psionic forces from acting upon them. Meanwhile, Firestorm's powers are nuclear and Donna's are magical. They can affect Sue.
Sue gets her powers from Hyper Space. She was bathed in cosmic rays; they are not psionic in nature.
I'm sorry, but this is not something Sue does in character at all. I've read bits of the Fantastic Four volumes and it's something that she rarely does, and only when she's extremely angry. For example, she didn't do this to the Avengers or SHIELD when they temporarily took away her children.
BECAUSE SHE KNOWS THE AVENGERS AND SHIELD. You wouldn't put a brain bubble in someone's head who you typically work with on a regular basis and would have massive repercussions for if you killed another hero.
Again, this is not something she does in character.
She did it to Ben Grimm when he went evil and was attacking her & the rest of the F4.
One thing I've noticed is that you tend to bring up your characters' higher end powers, and then say it's in character based off of two or three uses.
Oh this'll be a riot.
Dr. Light has 149 appearances, according to DC Wiki. Let's say that 100 of those involved a fight (in reality it should be way more considering that most villains are brought on specifically to combat the protagonist). That would mean that he's only used duplicates in 3% of his fights, which is not a very high percentage at all. For this reason, I doubt that Light would use constructs (not that they would be of any significance anyway).
He has 139 appearances according to that DC Wiki. I can even list issues and storylines in which he doesn't fight at all:
He's listed as being in Rogues Revenge issues 1 & 2 and only serves as a background character when they show Libra's society.
A multitude of his appearances are from Flashbacks to the events in Identity Crisis and the lobotomy he was given by the Justice League; not fights.
Plenty of his appearances are also from before Crisis on Infinite Earth's and can't be used as they're not valid feats.
Not every issue is him having a fight either; your math is way off. If you want me to apply this same logic to what you've shown then I will.
You state that Firestorm is going to use absolute zero to freeze Doctor Light. Firestorm has appeared in 602 issues when you combine the various versions of him. Lets say he only has fights in 200 of those issues. That would mean that he's only used absolute zero in 0.5% of his fights. For this reason, I doubt that Firestorm would use absolute zero (not that it would be of any significance anyway).
How absurd is that? It's incredibly absurd. Don't be one of those people who tries to do calculations, it never works out.
Moving on to Sue, I'll need to see some scans of her doing what you say she'll do IN CHARACTER. As far as I've seen she's only done it when something huge is on the line or her family is at stake, neither of which apply here. For example she didn't use it against Fing Fang Foom in Fantastic Four, Volume 4.
Something huge is on the line; her life. If she can't return home to protect her family then her family is also at stake. So indirectly by having this fight and your team attacking Sue you're also attacking her family!
This is a joke though; and if you really want me to go through every single issue of Fantastic Four and show all the times she's create a force field around someone or inside someone to cut off air supply or to harm them then you're mistake. You do; however, keep talking about how shes a caring mother and wouldn't want her kids to see her as a murder. Well, she said the following RIGHT in front of one of her children, Val.
So I don't think she minds if her family sees her kill someone, especially if it was a last resort. It'd be different if I was claiming it was Sue's first move; but cutting someones air supply off long enough for them to faint or blinding their optic nerves is as passive as you using transmuted gas. It's not lethal but it gets the job done.
If Sue DOES need to resort to lethal force then Firestorm and Donna are gonna have some drain bamage.
And even if you could prove that she might have done it once or twice in character, I can bring up twenty instances where she didn't for every one you show where she did.
This argument is bad and you should feel bad. I guess we better stop mentioning any time Wally West has used light speed combat in a fight because for every scan he has used it there are tons of scans of him not using it!
Seriously man?
She is not going to use lethal force in character. She's a very caring mother, do you think she'd want her kids to grow up around a killer who murdered for an unjustified reason?
Hey kids, I was attacked by a man who could manipulate molecules and his female friend who was attacking me with her fists and a whip. It was my life or theirs so to make sure I could return home to my family (that would honestly no nothing about this fight in the long run of things because it's a tournament on comic vine) I had to kill them.
This is not going to happen, because Firestorm can just generate more air for us. Another thing he can do is teleport himself and Donna out, using wormholes or pure teleportation.
Can still put fields inside your body!
No, your team is blitzed and transmuted.
You can't keep using this argument every time you use Firestorm in a debate. It doesn't work on experienced debaters who can completely deconstruct your argument.
Counters to the 'Kid-Friendly' Methods of Victory
After disassembling the entirety of your "counters" section its time to address your fallback plans:
I figured I'd make a backup plan or two in case the transmutation/blitz combo doesn't work. From what's been presented thus far, it absolutely will work, but Batman shows us that having contingencies is never a bad thing.
Your plan will not absolutely work; I've explained this in depth.
Freezing
I was waiting for this scan of absolute zero to pop up; I see it quite often in your debates.
Jason and Lorraine Reilly, who were at the time Firestorm, manage to freeze Killer Frost in a block of ice whose temperatures reach absolute zero.
Cool beans; good thing Killer Frost was still perfectly fine inside the ice block. She was just immobilized.
However, even if Light goes into Light form, he still can't escape absolute zero!
Light starts in light form; we've gone over this. His N52 version is stuck in light form. Since we're using a composite version he's in his light form.
Also; he can still escape absolute zero, lulz.
In Justice League Volume 2, Issue 27,we see that even beings in light form are trapped by "clouds of ultracooled atoms. Essentially, this is the same thing as absolute zero, which ceases all particle movement, immobilizing anyone and anything, including photons.
Wow-zers! It's almost as if Doctor Light doesn't have force fields to protect him from the effects of your absolute zero in the first place or teleportation to escape from the block of ice if you do encase him like Killer Frost. Oh wait, he has both of those things!
Doctor Light has displayed force fields all throughout his history; he's used them against the Teen Titans (because it's funny to watch Wally West run into them) and against the Arrow family. He's shown teleportation when he was toying with the Arrow family and during Identity Crisis. I'm sure there are more examples of it but those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
Your absolute zero has an absolute zero chance of success on Doctor Light. Sue is also protected because you can't break through her field. Feel free to freeze the outside of it if you want but she can still operate from inside of it rather easily.
Well, he's done it many times without there being a special scenario or reason to do it, so I believe that it is. Even more so in this particular fight, because Martin Stein, one of the elements of the Matrix, is an award-winning physicist who knows that extremely low temperatures halt photons, and because the Matrix contains Jason Rusch, another science nut.
I'm not going to use the same math that you used to figure that Doctor Light would only use constructs in 3% of his fights because that's bogus; so I'll accept that it's possibility that this'll happen; however, I've already mentioned that Light & Sue have Force Fields to protect them from Absolute Zero and Light can teleport either of them if they were to have become encased in it.
The field also doesn't last that long considering Killer Frost's ice cage began to crack when Firestorm returned to Earth:
So it's a cool trick, but it doesn't grant you a win in any sense of the term.
I'd also like to point out the fact that you accuse me of only using high-end feats for my characters but in the same issue you got the absolute zero scan from we see Firestorm get tagged by Mister Freeze:
Just saying.
Lasso of Persuasion
Are you going to try and persuade me to give up? :D
Here, she defeats Etrigan and forces him to go back into his human form. As long as Donna's willpower exceeds her captive's, they have to do whatever she says. If she tells Sue to stay still while Donna punches her, then Sue is going to stay still while Donna punches her.
It's almost as if you completely forgot that Sue has a force field around her; thus, the lasso won't touch her thus preventing the lasso from doing anything.
Even if you DID somehow get through Sue's Force Fields (you won't) and got the lasso around her (another thing that won't happen) Sue could still create force fields if you're just telling her to stay still. She doesn't have to move to make her fields and this seems like good a time as any to throw one of those bubbles inside Donna :)
Essentially, Sue's only hope of staying in this fight is reacting to the speedblitz. And I just don't see her reacting to the girl that escaped a bloodlusted Wally West.
Zomg, bloodlusted Wally West who wasn't even bloodlusted!
Conclusion // Summary
So I've been working on this for about 4 hours now and it's an incredibly long post. Right here you can read the tl;dr version to see exactly how my team is kicking your teams butt to the curb.
Firestorm's reaction speeds are not what you claim them to be. You're reading the feat wrong and trying to spin it in your favor; I've deconstructed each panel to display that Firestorm did not react to Doctor Light. He reacted to the much slower Killer Frost.
Donna's reaction speeds are also not what you claim them to be. Your webpage (not even a scientific article was linked) was misinterpreted by you and reacting to/dodging lasers isn't impressive in comics. I've shown scans of Gambit and Batman reacting to and send lasers back at their original user and I've shown Daredevil and Spider-Man dodging lasers. The Jesse Quick speed feat is also rather useless considering it's travel speed AND Jesse Quick is one of the slowest speedsters connected to the Speed Force. Just because you're connected to the Speed Force doesn't grant you all of it's abilities.
Your character knowledge gives you no distinct advantage; as you've got no knowledge on Sue and Doctor Light has knowledge on both Donna and Firestorm.
The argument for your character's morals was... something to say the least. I don't see Firestorm killing in this situation; Donna might, but she doesn't have the powers or abilities to be of any use in this fight.
Sue's force fields are not psionic in nature.
Your argument against my team's invisibility is invalid. Even if Firestorm can see invisible beings he wouldn't be able to see once his optic nerves are turned invisible by either of my team members who can make things invisible.
Your argument against my light army is also invalid. They're stronger than your giving them credit for; immune to physical force and the composite versions require a large amount of energy damage to be destroyed. They can also easily be remade. The only purpose this light army is serving for me in the first place is aiding me in beating the crap out of your team while they're blinded.
Doctor Light's energy absorption and manipulation is superior to that of anyone on your team. Firestorm can transmute things which is cool but he's just a giant power source for Doctor Light to use and manipulate against him.
My team is going to work just fine together as clarified by SFW. We won't have perfect teamwork but that's not required to beat your over-hyped team.
Your freezing is useless due to teleportation and force fields.
Your lasso is useless due to force fields; Doctor Light could also teleport it away like he did to Green Arrow's arrows and weaponry during his arc in that book.
Lastly; you trying to accuse me of misrepresenting my characters when you're incorrectly citing issues and misrepresenting your characters feats & abilities is a joke, tbh.
This was your battle to lose since the start; your reaction speeds aren't as amazing as you're making them seem and you keep talking about a blitz even though Doctor Light is immune to physical damage and Sue can get her fields up due to her reaction times. Doctor Light's energy absorption surpasses Firestorm's and even though Firestorm might have a wider array of abilities most of them are useless in this fight. Donna Troy is the most useless in this fight considering she only has physical means of attacking.
The fight begins; Sue gets her fields up, Donna crashes into one while Doctor Light robs you of your teams sight. Sue then blinds your optic nerves so you can't regain sight, Doctor Light summons his Light Constructs and we all proceed to hit you with everything we've got until your team is KO'd. Doctor Light also continues to get stronger and stronger throughout the fight by absorbing Firestorm's energy.
I'm the Flash. If you think 2 more rounds is good we can try that; however, I'm worried we're going to be repeating the same stuff if we go on too long. My final post might be pretty short.
@thenewbluebeetle007: Due to the fact that you straight out called me a douchebag in your response Id like to go straight to the conclusions and go to votes after my next post.
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