Punisher VS Wolverine

Hasn't Wolverine been unloaded with carbonadium bullets before any way?

@super_soldierxii Thoughts?

Maybe punisher can just shoot wolverine while he's dodging. I'm pretty sure someone has mentioned by now Punisher tagged a speedster with a shot moving faster then mach 1 (Mach 2 if I recall). I don't really think Wolverine will be that hard to tag. I think he just needs to shoot him in vital areas to slow him down and then taking him out with shrapnel from an explosive. Maybe a shaped charge.

Speaking of which. When wolverine is getting shot up, where do all the bullets lodged inside of him go? I'm also kinda curious as to where they go bullets are lodged in vital places....

I think Frank takes it.

One carb. bullet is enough to seriously slow Wolverine ... even drop him altogether.

On paper, at a 150 feet apart, Wolverine could go stealth, and given his enhanced senses should get the drop on Frank. Knowing Frank has the carbonadium would be an incentive for him to do so I suppose. So an argument can be made.

I just think Frank knows Wolverine's capabilities, and will position himself in a way where he'd be sure to see Wolverine coming. Not his first rodeo.

Wolverine.

Punisher wins. He's already tagged Wolverine when logan didn't want to be tagged, and with carbodium bullets one hit should be enough.

Punisher.

Loses.

I have a good feeling about page 4.

Frank's proven to be craftier and a smarter fighter overall than Logan has. Wolverine can tank his way through most scenarios and most writers have him doing just that.

Hmmm, I'll actually take Frank if he can tag wolverine enough. 6/10 He gets an assault rifle, the shotgun is also handy. If he uses pellets over the slugs that would also give him a better chance of winning.

Frank might be craftier, but I wouldn't say smarter. Plus the fact that Wolverine can tank his way trough is a factor that might help him win the fight.

Why? Wolverine has already been shot at by Punisher before it's not like he doesn't have knowledge of how deadly Frank's marksmanship is. Combine that with the fact he also knows that Punsiher has carbonadium and he has no reason to not use the environment around him to gain distance via stealth(Something Frank really has no answer for), and when he gets into melee range with Big Pun, it's game over.

If Wolverine plays it smart, he has the capacity to get a well fought majority.

What I have disliked about this post and your other reasons as to why Frank should win play on the idea that Wolverine is going to be stupid here. Big no no. Yes, Wolverine has a tendency to not combat most situations as smartly as he can cause' he never really has to, but he has a decent amount of showings that demonstrate that he can be intelligent when the need arises, and Punsiher carrying carbonadium bullets is most definitely a cause for him to smarten his ass up.

Come on Supes, I know you understand the instances I'm referring to, let's not play the "Wolverine is all RAGH!" card here.

I don't think this entirely hinges on whether Logan decides if he wants to be hit or not. I'm thinking it's more a case of if Frank wants to hit Logan. Sure, Logan has dodged shots from Cyclops who has comparable or even better marksmanship feats than Frank. But then Frank has also tagged not only Logan himself, but people faster than Logan on occasion. There are scenarios where either guy will win, but more often than not, Frank is going to crowd Logan into a corner he can't escape out of using tactical marksmanship, and end him.

How can Frank crowd Wolverine in a corner when Wolverine is actively hiding via stealth and using his environment given here. Due to things like stealth Wolverine playing things smart has a better chance of getting the jump on Frank first rather than vice versa.

@wolverine08:

Why? Wolverine has already been shot at by Punisher before it's not like he doesn't have knowledge of how deadly Frank's marksmanship is. Combine that with the fact he also knows that Punsiher has carbonadium and he has no reason to not use the environment around him to gain distance via stealth(Something Frank really has no answer for), and when he gets into melee range with Big Pun, it's game over.

If Wolverine plays it smart, he has the capacity to get a well fought majority.

As you pointed out, he has been shot at by Punisher. And he was hit, so there's not a lot to suggest he won't be hit again here. I don't think the distance is big enough for stealth to work and Frank can keep it from being a melee.

Punisher. Wolverine closing 150 meters jumping from cover to cover, without Punisher getting a single shot on him, while the Punisher just stands there waiting for Wolverine to pop up and slice him, is as ridiculous a scenario as it sounds. Punisher isn't stupid, in fact he's probably far more clever than Logan is. He could simply gain a vantage point, or retreat to a clearing of cover (there are many such spots in the picture), thus eliminating any stealth advantage Logan has and just shoot him at his leisure.

@highaccuser:

As you pointed out, he has been shot at by Punisher.

He's also dodged shots from comparable marksmen to Frank like Cyclops, and his senses have been shown to be able to keep track of projectiles like bullets allowing him to dodge at the last second. Not doubting that Frank can tag somebody like Wolverine, but let's not act like Wolverine is hopeless when it comes to evading either, especially with the large amounts of cover to hide behind that will be present in a junkyard setting. Things like trucks, etc. all are viable things to hide behind.

I don't think the distance is big enough for stealth to work and Frank can keep it from being a melee.

The OP says Frank and James are starting 150 feet apart. That's a massive amount of distance to set up for stealth, and Frank is not going to be having much success keeping Wolverine out of melee if he can't even properly track him.

@wolverine08: How exactly is stealth going to work out here? They begin visible at 150 feet away. The optimum range for an M4 assault rifle is something like 1600+ feet, and Frank has hit a string with a handgun (while distracted) from well over 150 feet away. It's broad daylight and whatever cover is on the map can be quite safely punched through by his M4 rounds anyway. I don't favor Logan's chances here.

I think can work because there is honestly loads of stuff pictured in the OP that can be used for cover, and it's not like Frank has enhaned senses to determine which cover Wolverine is exactly behind, and Logan himself can keep hiding all still track Frank with his own senses. And I would like to point out that a bonafide bullet timer in Nightcrawler has lost sight of a Wolverine right in front of him that opted for stealth.

@wolverine08: He doesn't necessarily need to punch through the cover Logan is behind. If he shoots at Logan he can kite him in one direction in order to anticipate him coming out the other side. Like throwing a nade into the enemy bunker and watching them funnel out into the open. Who says Logan can even make it to Frank in this setting? It's not a dark crowded jungle we're talking about. There are pieces of machinery and construction materials here and there but it's broad daylight. Logan just realistically isn't sneaking up on Frank. Not to mention Frank's sensed an ambush from Spider-Man through changes in air currents before, so he's not totally inept at detection anyway.

@wolverine08:

He's also dodged shots from comparable marksmen to Frank like Cyclops, and his senses have been shown to be able to keep track of projectiles like bullets allowing him to dodge at the last second. Not doubting that Frank can tag somebody like Wolverine, but let's not act like Wolverine is hopeless when it comes to evading either, especially with the large amounts of cover to hide behind that will be present in a junkyard setting. Things like trucks, etc. all are viable things to hide behind.

I don't see Scott as being as good as Frank since he has the unfair benefit of his attacks moving at luminal speed. Logans tendancy to tank rather than avoid is going to be a major problem for him. Most of those things provide limited cover at best, Logans going to have to rush out at Frank without getting tagged once and I just don't think he can do that.

The OP says Frank and James are starting 150 feet apart. That's a massive amount of distance to set up for stealth, and Frank is not going to be having much success keeping Wolverine out of melee if he can't even properly track him.

It's not really that big given how fast bullets travel, and sneaking up on someone with Punishers reaction speed isn't easy nor is it a practical method of fighting someone who can one-shot Logan like Punisher.

The one who is the best at what he does.

Kidding, Punisher.

@i_like_swords:

He doesn't necessarily need to punch through the cover Logan is behind. If he shoots at Logan he can kite him in one direction in order to anticipate him coming out the other side. Like throwing a nade into the enemy bunker and watching them funnel out into the open.

Here's the thing, Wolverine has ridiculously enhanced senses to track his opponent with, Frank does not. In a game of hide and go seek when Frank is trying to pick out which particular piece of cover Wolverine is behind as Wolverine tries to approach without being picked out, Wolverine is more often than not going to win in that scenario due to the instrinct edge in tracking his senses grant him.

Who says Logan can even make it to Frank in this setting? It's not a dark crowded jungle we're talking about. There are pieces of machinery and construction materials here and there but it's broad daylight. Logan just realistically isn't sneaking up on Frank.

This junkyard is pretty damn packed, which makes it easier for hiding, and Wolverine and Nightcrawler were in the bright of day when a Nightcrawler staring right at Wolverine ended losing sight of him due to Logan opting for stealth.(Something he pointed to as a trick he had learned) Add in that he has debris to work with, and I feel stealth is a viable option for gaining distance while not trying to soak damage. Personally, I give this scenario to Wolverine if he uses his stealth skill in combination with the environment present to him whereas I think a more open environment would tilt things in Frank's.

Not to mention Frank's sensed an ambush from Spider-Man through changes in air currents before, so he's not totally inept at detection anyway.

Impressive, but Spider-Man in general isn't anywhere near as skilled as Wolverine, and he doesn't have his stealth feats. I don't think Peter using skill alone could sneak through the entirety of the United Nations in plain day without being spotted.

@highaccuser:

I don't see Scott as being as good as Frank since he has the unfair benefit of his attacks moving at luminal speed.

His visor slows down the speed of his optic blasts I might add, and in terms of aiming, Scott has shot coins out of the air, he's defused a bomb by hitting by hitting its millimeter wide detonator on it, he's used ricochets with insane precison(5+ ricochets to catch targets, ricochets through his legs, hitting targets he couldn't see around a corner through a double optic blast ricochet,), he's used tactical aiming in a manner similar to that of Frank's before when dealing with speedsters like Quicksilver, etc.

Logans tendancy to tank rather than avoid is going to be a major problem for him.

Wolverine tanks things because he knows that he can do so with no consequences behind them. Wolverine has dealt with carbonadium based weapons before and knows he is incapable of dealing with their damage output.

Most of those things provide limited cover at best,

Things in the junkyard present like tractors provide pretty damn large cover to work with, and their are holes/crevices around the place to hide in as well.

It's not really that big given how fast bullets travel,

When you factor in that Wolverine's senses can let him senses bullets before they even reach his vicinity, I think a 150 foot starting distance works to his favor in terms of being able to avoid the opening volley of long range shots before opting for something like stealth.

and sneaking up on someone with Punishers reaction speed isn't easy nor is it a practical method of fighting someone who can one-shot Logan like Punisher.

He's been able to sneak up on a bullet timer like Nightcrawler without being noticed before. Not saying that it's going to be as simple as one, two, three, but it's not impossible either.

@wolverine08:

Here's the thing, Wolverine has ridiculously enhanced senses to track his opponent with, Frank does not. In a game of hide and go seek when Frank is trying to pick out which particular piece of cover Wolverine is behind as Wolverine tries to approach without being picked out, Wolverine is more often than not going to win in that scenario due to the instrinct edge in tracking his senses grant him

You're forgetting something very important - they start visible. As soon as Logan moves into cover to avoid the first barrage of bullets, Frank knows where he is. And from there its childs play because all Frank has to do is wait for Logan to leave cover. We're outside in the day time here. And as has been said before, Frank could take a higher vantage point if he wanted to. I feel like you're overestimating both the quantity and protection of cover afforded to Logan here. Half the stuff he ducks behind can be punched through and the other half of the time Frank has seen Logan get behind that cover.

This junkyard is pretty damn packed, which makes it easier for hiding, and Wolverine and Nightcrawler were in the bright of day when a Nightcrawler staring right at Wolverine ended losing sight of him due to Logan opting for stealth.(Something he pointed to as a trick he had learned) Add in that he has debris to work with, and I feel stealth is a viable option for gaining distance while not trying to soak damage. Personally, I give this scenario to Wolverine if he uses his stealth skill in combination with the environment present to him whereas I think a more open environment would tilt things in Frank's

IIRC that was at close proximity, wasn't it? In fact I haven't read the showing so I can't comment one way or another. I'm just saying, I don't see how Logan can disappear on Frank in this scenario. If you really look at the map it isn't as jam packed as you're making out. It's deceptive in that the cranes overlapping other pieces of cover make it look crowded, but when you're actually down on the ground the cranes aren't in the way of your view. Just the odd few cars, and materials that can be shot through easy enough. The picture itself doesn't represent 150m. It's far larger than that, and that's again why it looks more crowded than it would be. And there are areas on the map where Frank could back up to that actually force Logan to come out into the open. And if Frank were to get up high there's no way Logan could sneak up on him, because he would need to come up to Frank, and unless he dodge a shot of buckshot to the face in mid-air, I don't favor his chances.

Impressive, but Spider-Man in general isn't anywhere near as skilled as Wolverine, and he doesn't have his stealth feats. I don't think Peter using skill alone could sneak through the entirety of the United Nations in plain day without being spotted.

This setting is quite a biy more open than the UN's though. It's also a random encounter with a lone target who knows you're coming, opposed to Logan prepping (I presume) to sneak into an unknowing targets building. It's impressive, but it isn't entirely transferable.

Logan stomps, he's FTL :D

And Frank has shot Daredevils baton off a ricochet, shot Spideys webshooters off while freefalling, shot a man's thumb off while he was holding a detonator without it going off, shot a string from a MASSIVE distance away (further than this starting distance) using a handgun, while being attacked by a bloodlusted Spidey, and has consecutively landed headshots or otherwise planned killshots without missing, even in hostage situations or situations where the difference between a planned kill, and hitting an innocent, is centimeters. He's honestly just as good as Scott except he performs a lot of his best feats with 1911 Colts opposed to the M4 he has here.

Never denied such as I know of his aim feats and I feel he is every bit as good as Scott. Was just pointing out why I feel Scott is comparable to Frank.

@wolverine08: Ah, my bad. Was just skimming lol.

I'd say whoever gets the first few hits. I'm leaning towards Punisher, due to the distance.

@i_like_swords:

You're forgetting something very important - they start visible. As soon as Logan moves into cover to avoid the first barrage of bullets, Frank knows where he is. And from there its childs play because all Frank has to do is wait for Logan to leave cover. We're outside in the day time here. And as has been said before, Frank could take a higher vantage point if he wanted to. I feel like you're overestimating both the quantity and protection of cover afforded to Logan here. Half the stuff he ducks behind can be punched through and the other half of the time Frank has seen Logan get behind that cover.

I do understand that Punisher and Wolverine are starting visible, but the main point that I was trying to get across is that a Wolverine using stealth in an attempt to evade Frank is going to be constantly on the move from cover and if he uses stealth right while doing so he can keep out of proper sight of Frank, and I think that's where the senses can come into play as Wolverine can keep constant check on Frank and his current position whereas Frank's going to have more or less guess where Logan currently is. Wolverine has been able to track people before from long distances so I think he has the means to not have to be directly seeing Frank to keep his tabs on him whereas the same can't really be said for Punisher.

IIRC that was at close proximity, wasn't it? In fact I haven't read the showing so I can't comment one way or another.

They were actually far enough from each other that Nightcrawler was able to try spy on Wolverine, but Wolverine spotted him and subsequently vanished in plain sight and then ended up behind him. I don't believe Wolverine using stealth on Frank is as easy as 1,2,3, but I do think that showings like that demonstrate that he has a decent chance of keeping his exact whereabouts in doubt for Frank if he's using his environment correctly.

If you really look at the map it isn't as jam packed as you're making out. It's deceptive in that the cranes overlapping other pieces of cover make it look crowded, but when you're actually down on the ground the cranes aren't in the way of your view. Just the odd few cars, and materials that can be shot through easy enough.

Well, looking at the junkyard itself, I see multiple cars, cranes, construction trucks, pieces of construction equipment, etc. They can all indeed shot through but they are nonetheless viable things to hide behind if Wolverine manages to make his whereabouts unknown to Frank with stealth.

And if Frank were to get up high there's no way Logan could sneak up on him, because he would need to come up to Frank, and unless he dodge a shot of buckshot to the face in mid-air, I don't favor his chances.

Fair enough about usage of one's vantage point. If the battle stalls out long enough that Frank gets to higher cover I can see the majority going to him. If Wolverine closes thing up with stealth before Frank chooses to do something like that I still think Logan can pull a 6/10ish majority.

This setting is quite a biy more open than the UN's though. It's also a random encounter with a lone target who knows you're coming, opposed to Logan prepping (I presume) to sneak into an unknowing targets building. It's impressive, but it isn't entirely transferable.

Well, with the United Nations feat, I think you have to consider the sheer amount of people that would have been present at the time when Logan snuck in combined with how tight the UN is going to be, and Wolverine's margin for error with regards to being noticed were extremely small, and the fact that he managed to accomplish such without being noticed is a good display at just how talented he is at masking his presence, and I think that type of thing can be very transferable to this scenario if Wolverine doesn't want a constant stream of bullets coming at him.

Nuff Said.

Franck wins : one sniper bullet of carbonadium in the head of Wolverine
.

Frank wouldn't beat Bruce so what chance does he have against Logan?

@reaverlation: People acting like Logan can't dodge bullets. He's FTL for a reason :P

hehehe.

@wolverine08:

What I have disliked about this post and your other reasons as to why Frank should win play on the idea that Wolverine is going to be stupid here. Big no no.

Never said that. Never even alluded to him being stupid. If fact, I painted a scenario that decried quite the opposite.

Yes, Wolverine has a tendency to not combat most situations as smartly as he can cause' he never really has to,

I never even went that far in my commentary. I said he can tank most scenarios, and writers see him more consistently taking this route. Am I wrong in my comment?

but he has a decent amount of showings that demonstrate that he can be intelligent when the need arises,

Agreed. Nothing said heretofore contradicts this.

and Punsiher carrying carbonadium bullets is most definitely a cause for him to smarten his ass up.

I said as much in my very first comment.

Come on Supes, I know you understand the instances I'm referring to, let's not play the "Wolverine is all RAGH!" card here.

Again, I never did. I stated exactly how Wolverine can win this fight, then stated exactly why I don't think it will fly for a majority. Take what I said, and why, then address that if you want to prove me wrong. Up till now, you've pretty much been arguing with yourself insofar as what I've proposed herein is concerned.

@super_soldierxii:

Again, I never did. I stated exactly how Wolverine can win this fight, then stated exactly why I don't think it will fly for a majority. Take what I said, and why, then address that if you want to prove me wrong. Up till now, you've pretty much been arguing with yourself insofar as what I've proposed herein is concerned.

OK then. Let me take the opportunity to address the intricacies surrounding. Your reasoning for Punisher winning this battle when it is all said and done(To paraphrase) comes down to him having knowledge of Wolverine capabilities and most likely taking a course of action to neutralize Wolverine's given advantages. For one, the aspect of knowledge easily works both ways here. Wolverine has fought Punsiher before, been shot by him, and seen his arsenal to boot. He knows Frank's no joke when it comes to firearms and that his biggest hand lies in his distance. Punisher on the other hand has never actually witnessed Wolverine's stealth capabilities firsthand so I doubt that he's going to be ready for it off the bat, and the most logical route of action for Wolverine here when things like distance are considered would be to try use stealth to get his into his M.O, melee.

@wolverine08: I don't know, I agree with everythinh you said, but that's "on paper". Every single time those guys face each other, Logan ends up pretty badly. I know there's some PIS involved but not in every single encounter. Same goes for Logan vs Elektra. Despite the logic, writers just don't see it.

Wolverine under Frank Tierr hasi beaten Punisher pretty soundly. And most of Elektra's fights with Wolverine have context around them as well(Wolverine being feral, Wolverine being preoccupied with protecting a child when she attacked him, Elektra attacking Wolverine with a bunch of Hand Ninja) I think most of Wolverine's run in's with Punisher sans Garth Ennis do him justice, mostly.

But I agree that if Ennis jobber aura comes into play, Punisher probably just shoots Wolverine's d%ck off again.

@wolverine08: Yeah, seems he like to see him suffer :P

Franks just jealous he ain't the best there is! :)

It doesn't come down to Frank just having knowledge of Wolverine's capabilities.

It comes down to exactly how I laid it out, which you still have not addressed.

Frank knows Wolverine is a top tier melee fighter with no ranged abilities and that he is enhanced, especially his senses. He knows he can't hide. And he knows Wolverine is way out of his league.

And that's all Castle needs to know really to know that;

• A) he needs to take him down before he closes the distance and;
• B) he needs to keep him in his line of sight in order to do so.

As soon as Logan pops out of sight (if he gets the chance before Frank can tag him. Which in all fairness, there's a really good chance Logan can pull it off), Frank will definitely seek a position wherein he will see Logan coming. He's not dumb. Someone vanishes from sight, Castle will know what he's dealing with and will not give the chance to be unpleasantly surprised by a sudden reappearance. He knows Wolverine is a sneaky bugger. Logan appeared right under his nose in his secret hideout to warn Castle the Avengers were coming for him. Regardless, Wolverine cannot simply pop out of midair. They're not in a heavily forested area as he was with both Nuke and Kurt. Plenty of location Castle can choose wherein Logan cannot simply flank him. He'll have to break into open ground to close the distance. Nor is Frank a simple goon like the ones Logan misdirected in the bar in Madripoor.

All that said, the idea of Wolverine going stealth and getting the drop on Frank is certainly not implausible, just not for a majority win IMHO. Not in this scenario where Frank is really given every single possible advantage he needs to take Wolverine out.

@super_soldierxii:

As soon as Logan pops out of sight (if he gets the chance before Frank can tag him. Which in all fairness, there's a really good chance Logan can pull it off), Frank will definitely seek a position wherein he will see Logan coming.

This is mostly an assumption on your part that Frank's first instinct will be seeking higher. I bet you most likely can't even show off feats from Frank in countering stealth tactics with people sporting feats of stealth comparable to those of Wolverine's. Even then, these two are starting only 150 feet apart, and when you consider the cover Wolverine has here in trucks and such to aid his stealth along with certain paths in this somewhat maze like junkyard and his senses to perfectly guide him while tracking Frank, I think the chances of Wolverine closing the aforementioned distance before Frank can get to that higher ground that will give him proper sight of his given adversary. And Wolverine himself also has the option of taking the high ground as well while he's hiding from Frank.

If Frank had prep, he could create web-shooters and incap Wolverine for teh win.

Wolverine, bub

Im not sure I understand correctly.

What difference does carbonadium or adamantium make against Wolverine? In the comics adamantium bullets doesn't hurt Wolverines bones only in the movie.

Carbonadium can slow down Wolverine's healing factor.

But regardless, he still wins this.

Jmarshmallow

@jmarshmallow:

Oh, well if Wolverine loses his healing factor and doesn't have a gun himself then Frank should stomp him.