Yes. Your random encounter seems more RPG-ish ala Final Fantasy. In any case, I liked the scenario you put forth. You can always pose a different one if you want to change the parameters of the fight.
I was thinking of putting Bullseye in the kitchen where he would have a counter to crouch behind and plenty of ammunition. Technically it doesn't differ from my scenario (if you include the kitchen with the cafeteria), it's just more specific.
I feel confused, like there's things I'm missing here. I personally think Bullseye would win. Punisher can be as armed as he wants and still get killed. When the two of them had a showdown in the jungle Bullseye was easily winning the confrontation (they were interrupted before the end). He was able to stop Frank's grenades before they went anywhere, dodge the bullets shot at him, throw a weapon down the barrel of his gun, and use all his attacks against him, all while taunting him. The setup really wasn't much different from here, they were face to face over a short distance and Frank was packing and Bullseye had nothing (maybe he started with a knife). As for the setup, I think I agree with Super Buster. I don't see why a "random encounter" would help Bullseye much more than how it is now. I think that's because I share his idea of random encounter. I see that as a face to face too. I think anything else (only one combatant seeing the other, for example) is unfair. Face to face over distance makes it so they both get a chance to attack, not just one being able to attack or take action before the other knows the fight has even started.
And Luna, Bullseye is not limited to throwing just two things at once. An example I like is when he teamed up with Deadpool and threw down a bunch of dishes and forks (things he might have in this fight) and when they hit the ground every shard hit one of the guards.
I don't see why Bullseye can't throw things from a hiding spot. He's shown many times that he can bounce things off walls with the same accuracy as just throwing them, even without looking. In a recent Spider-Man issue he was able to hit Pete in the neck around a corner (no bounce that time, just a good throw) with a tracer.
I must have missed the "5 feet" since it wasn't in the first post. Is that in the setup? Anyway though, he's dodged the Punisher's shots before and comic characters have done crazier (Batman and Cap do it all the time) so I don't see why he couldn't, at least until he either attacked back or got to cover.
it wasnt five feat but it said face to face close range......i take that as 5-15 ft...you could be right...but I like the Punisher's odds in this set up....other wise I say BullsEye takes it
"it wasnt five feat but it said face to face close range......i take that as 5-15 ft...you could be right...but I like the Punisher's odds in this set up....other wise I say BullsEye takes it"
I'm not seeing "close range" in the first post either.
Hmmm...in my mind I must have misinterperreted then....in my mind I saw them comming around a corner and being face to face. I guess face to face to me is pretty close. If someone rights face to face I dont see them standing on opposite sides of a gigantic room...but like I said I could be wrong thats just my interperetation
"I feel confused, like there's things I'm missing here. I personally think Bullseye would win. Punisher can be as armed as he wants and still get killed. When the two of them had a showdown in the jungle Bullseye was easily winning the confrontation (they were interrupted before the end). He was able to stop Frank's grenades before they went anywhere, dodge the bullets shot at him, throw a weapon down the barrel of his gun, and use all his attacks against him, all while taunting him. The setup really wasn't much different from here, they were face to face over a short distance and Frank was packing and Bullseye had nothing (maybe he started with a knife). As for the setup, I think I agree with Super Buster. I don't see why a "random encounter" would help Bullseye much more than how it is now. I think that's because I share his idea of random encounter. I see that as a face to face too. I think anything else (only one combatant seeing the other, for example) is unfair. Face to face over distance makes it so they both get a chance to attack, not just one being able to attack or take action before the other knows the fight has even started.
And Luna, Bullseye is not limited to throwing just two things at once. An example I like is when he teamed up with Deadpool and threw down a bunch of dishes and forks (things he might have in this fight) and when they hit the ground every shard hit one of the guards.
I don't see why Bullseye can't throw things from a hiding spot. He's shown many times that he can bounce things off walls with the same accuracy as just throwing them, even without looking. In a recent Spider-Man issue he was able to hit Pete in the neck around a corner (no bounce that time, just a good throw) with a tracer.
"
See I disagree. Frank standing a short distance away from Bullseye with a machine gun in a mexican standoff situation should be able to open up a hail of bullets before Bullseye's knife's travel across the room either into the barrel or Frank himself. Both have human abilities so its not like Bullseye has a superhuman speed advanatge (daredevil was able to blast a weapon out of Bullseye's hand with a single shot. Had it been full on automatic he would have shredded him). Bullseye has to make a full throwing motion, or at the very least a wrist flick, where as all the Punisher has to do is squeeze the trigger.
Two normal humans with Olympic level reflexes, at best, standing at close range, one with a machine gun and the other with knives, I just see it as an advantage for the guy with a machine gun (especially in a prison cafeteria)
Some encounters I see as face to face, while others I simply dont. Wolverine and Sabretooth I can picture as a legit face to face. Wolverine and Cyclops face to face would be an advantage for Cyclops. So I dont picture that fight starting off the same way. Same goes for this fight. Nothing to hide behind, no way of using the area for any suitable cover. I just dont see Bullseye winning.
If he can shoot Spidey with a pistol, he should be able to smoke Bullseye with a machine gun
"Hmmm...in my mind I must have misinterperreted then....in my mind I saw them comming around a corner and being face to face. I guess face to face to me is pretty close. If someone rights face to face I dont see them standing on opposite sides of a gigantic room...but like I said I could be wrong thats just my interperetation"
If it makes you feel better, I don't see "face to face" in the opening thread either. I see "they stare each other down", which to me actually implies more distance, but that's just me. They could be nuzzling noses or they could be (what I'm picturing) on opposite sides of a prison dining hall.
@ Gambler: I'm still not seeing "short distance" explicitly stated in the first post. Anyway, Bullseye could avoid being shot I think. He's done it before (against Punisher himself, cops, aliens with lasers, etc), all he'd have to do is get behind something, table, pile of bodies, support column, etc. From behind one of those he could attack back and get Punisher on the run or just kill him. Punisher is nowhere near as good at dodging attacks as Bullseye (judging from their fights). Bullseye's already put a knife in his chest once, I'm sure he could do it again. If not a single shot, a shattered plate could kill him with many shards. They may both be human, but Bullseye has better reflexes as far as I've seen. It's not a ton, but it's something. Plenty of people have had Bullseye in a position where pulling a trigger could have ended him, yet Bullseye still kills them, so someone having a gun doesn't make or break this in my mind.
Nice scan, but as I said before, Bullseye's hit Spider-Man too. In fact, he did it multiple times while special attention was being given to Spider-Man's spider sense to make sure the reader knew it was working. What happened in your scan could just be another instance of a writer ignoring the spider sense, but that wasn't the case when Bullseye hit him.
"Bullseye outclasses Castle in just about every catagory."
So does Daredevil and Frank beat him more than once.In fact I would even go as far as to say he embarrassed Daredevil.I remember in one fight Daredevil asked him why he was holding back....
"Bullseye outclasses Castle in just about every catagory."
So does Daredevil and Frank beat him more than once.In fact I would even go as far as to say he embarrassed Daredevil.I remember in one fight Daredevil asked him why he was holding back...."
Franks also beat Bullseye in the comics as well. Doesn't make the statement anyless true. Who beat who in comics matters what exactly? Firelord outclasses Spiderman yet Spidey won. Same with Gladiator and Gambit. The list goes on and on. Comic battles dont just take each characters abilities and then match em up. There's plot and story as well as an agenda before the fight ever takes place. If Frank embarrsed Daredevil yet Daredevil's embarrsed Bullseye but Bullseye's beaten Frank then how can u strictly go off their comic battles?
Anyway thats only one sentence out of like.....6 posts that for some reason you've choosen to address. In case you missed it I've been saying Punisher wins for the last two pages (since the scenerio was set up)
I think everyone is in agreement as to what Bullseye can do (as far as offensively damaging or killing Castle). The debate is actually more about whether Punisher with a machine gun (already to go) standing across from Bullseye with knives in his sleeve (at an undisclosed distance in a prison cafeteria) could win. I think its pretty fair to say Punisher could and would blast Bullseye before Bullseye was able to throw his knives at Punisher.
@ Gambler: I'm still not seeing "short distance" explicitly stated in the first post. Anyway, Bullseye could avoid being shot I think. He's done it before (against Punisher himself, cops, aliens with lasers, etc), all he'd have to do is get behind something, table, pile of bodies, support column, etc.
Maybe "short distance" was just my interpretation. Either way I don't see how more distance helps Bullseye. The further away they are the longer it takes for his knifes to travel. Has Bullseye ever avoided being shot by someone of the Punisher's caliber while he was focused and ready to go with a machine gun? Prison tables don't flip over so getting behind one wouldn't protect him from the absurd amount of bullets a machine gun fires off. Your right about the bodies, however, the bullets are just as likely to travel through a corpse and still shred Bullseye. And the Punisher could just as easily use a grenade if Bullseye runs and dives behind a support column, or anything else for that matter. The longer it takes for Bullseye to attack the better the Punisher's chances increase. He could keep him pinned down with automatic fire while simultaneous hurling a grenade near or around whatever Bullseye had taken cover behind.
Buckshot said:
" Punisher is nowhere near as good at dodging attacks as Bullseye (judging from their fights). Bullseye's already put a knife in his chest once, I'm sure he could do it again. If not a single shot, a shattered plate could kill him with many shards. They may both be human, but Bullseye has better reflexes as far as I've seen. "
Your right about that. But his durability is crazy, its like a human version of Wolverine's. Not sure if this is the same fight, but Bullseye stuck Frank in the shoulder and Frank still had him beat (outside interference prevented him from killing Bullseye). If this is the time your referring to then I don't see this actually happening in this particular battle. Bullseye would have to get close enough and I don't see that happening the way the fight has been set up (personal opinion). caption
Prison Cafeteria's don't use conventional plates. They use those plastic and or styrofoam plates. I agree if their plastic then your statement is indeed correct. I've seen Bullseye slit Deadpool's throat with a straw before. But if their styrofoam I dont really see the shard attack working. I don't know about the reflexes. Bullseye may be more of an acrobat, but the Punisher has decent to good reflexes as well as his ability to anticipate the movements of opponents he's already faced (or so he says in the scan of him shooting spiderman).
Buckshot said:
Plenty of people have had Bullseye in a position where pulling a trigger could have ended him, yet Bullseye still kills them, so someone having a gun doesn't make or break this in my mind.
I know of two instances where Punisher had Bullseye dead to rights and nothing more then the story of the comic saved Bullseye. Empty chambers. Convenient. Even still, Bullseye isn't able to kill Frank with his own empty gun, merely break his nose. So its not a give in that he'll be able to kill the Punisher even if he does get his knifes off first. Could kill him but doesn't. Instead shoots his hand.
Its not the gun that makes or breaks the fight, so much as its a combination of things. The set up primarily. Punisher and Bullseye standing across from each other in a prison cafeteria, one with knives (up his sleeve) and the other with a machine gun (and grenades). I just think its underrating the Punisher to think he wouldn't be able to get the job done in this scenario.
Buckshot said:
"Nice scan, but as I said before, Bullseye's hit Spider-Man too. In fact, he did it multiple times while special attention was being given to Spider-Man's spider sense to make sure the reader knew it was working. What happened in your scan could just be another instance of a writer ignoring the spider sense, but that wasn't the case when Bullseye hit him."
It could have been, your right. Writers do seem to ignore the Spider Sense when it fits their story. But its not like it was an isolated incident. Punisher has tagged Spiderman on several occasions. Once he even took on Nightcrawler and the Web Head. Had Spiderman dead to rights.
"I think everyone is in agreement as to what Bullseye can do (as far as offensively damaging or killing Castle). The debate is actually more about whether Punisher with a machine gun (already to go) standing across from Bullseye with knives in his sleeve (at an undisclosed distance in a prison cafeteria) could win. I think its pretty fair to say Punisher could and would blast Bullseye before Bullseye was able to throw his knives at Punisher. "
Let me get my scans, then ill make this a flateline
"I think everyone is in agreement as to what Bullseye can do (as far as offensively damaging or killing Castle). The debate is actually more about whether Punisher with a machine gun (already to go) standing across from Bullseye with knives in his sleeve (at an undisclosed distance in a prison cafeteria) could win. I think its pretty fair to say Punisher could and would blast Bullseye before Bullseye was able to throw his knives at Punisher. "
Let me get my scans, then ill make this a flateline"
Alright here we go, heres bullseye terminating an entire yakuza mob as seen in daredevil #111 (Uzi's, pocket knives, Pistols etc.) so punisher ALONE shouldn't be a problem at all
I hope that's not your big finish. Lets start with the first scan, he's already on the run. The way this fight is set-up both characters are standing still looking directing at eachother. To be honest it looks like he took the first guy completely by surprise. His cards are already at the target by the time the scene opens up. Not sure what your trying to show there. Second scan shows him coming up and flipping over a large crate (which helped shield him if not also hide his whereabouts until he flipped down.) No crates in the Prison Cafeteria.
Third scan shows him using splinters from the crate as weapons along with a gun, a cool picture indeed but a moot point. The rest of the fight is highly entertaining but proves what exactly? Are any of the Ukaza on the Punisher's level of marksmenship? Of course not. Their a bunch of explendable characters only there to make Bullseye look good. I think Punisher has similair feets of the same nature. I'm just not seeing how this pertains to the scenerio already set in place.
Second question, is Punisher on Bullseyes marksmanship? Because i doubt it, Whereas Punisher is limited to ammunition and guns, Bullseye can use the entire environment, and what else i was trying to prove, is that bullseyes martial arts beat a mob of martial artists.
captioncaptioncaption
And the only thing that came to save spider-Man in this Situation was Anti-Venom
Cool scans, but are u serious? Spiderman just got shredded by a hail of bullets. Of course Bullseye was able to hit him.
I've already said that we all agree on what Bullseye can do. But your not paying attention to the way the fight has been constructed. I'm not arguing who has the better marksmenship (although Punsiher doesn't need to have Bullseye's aim to shoot him with an automatic machine gun. If he can shoot Spiderman he could shoot Bullseye). I'm talking about the setup and how it favors the Punisher. Bullseye is only armed with knives (up his sleeve), Punisher has a machine gun, two pistols, and grenades. They are standing in front of eachother (how far hasnt been said) Both men are standing still looking at one another. Like I've been saying, Punisher should be skilled enough to squeeze the trigger before Bullseye fishes his knives out of his sleeve and hurls them across the room.
"Second question, is Punisher on Bullseyes marksmanship? Because i doubt it, Whereas Punisher is limited to ammunition and guns, Bullseye can use the entire environment, and what else i was trying to prove, is that bullseyes martial arts beat a mob of martial artists.
captioncaptioncaption
And the only thing that came to save spider-Man in this Situation was Anti-Venom"
Bullseye simply has to jump as he did in the second scan i posted, get close, disarm him, and thats it. First reaction of punisher would be to shoot straight forward, Bullseye is also now enhanced by nano-bots (how far that changes his abilities we don't exactly know but it didn't harm him) and btw, the entire mob up there had a clear shot, maybe given the first guy (yet i don't see how he is suprised when he's got his Uzi puled out and looking forward to bullseye).
"Bullseye simply has to jump as he did in the second scan i posted, get close, disarm him, and thats it. First reaction of punisher would be to shoot straight forward, Bullseye is also now enhanced by nano-bots (how far that changes his abilities we don't exactly know but it didn't harm him) and btw, the entire mob up there had a clear shot, maybe given the first guy (yet i don't see how he is suprised when he's got his Uzi puled out and looking forward to bullseye)."
Gambler said:
"Cool scans, but are u serious? Spiderman just got shredded by a hail of bullets. Of course Bullseye was able to hit him.
I've already said that we all agree on what Bullseye can do. But your not paying attention to the way the fight has been constructed. I'm not arguing who has the better marksmenship (although Punsiher doesn't need to have Bullseye's aim to shoot him with an automatic machine gun. If he can shoot Spiderman he could shoot Bullseye). I'm talking about the setup and how it favors the Punisher. Bullseye is only armed with knives (up his sleeve), Punisher has a machine gun, two pistols, and grenades. They are standing in front of eachother (how far hasnt been said) Both men are standing still looking at one another. Like I've been saying, Punisher should be skilled enough to squeeze the trigger before Bullseye fishes his knives out of his sleeve and hurls them across the room."
yea well i ment the fact that his reaction time should also succeed punishers as you can see in the spider-man scan, where he catches the gadget thrown at him from the side.
"yea well i ment the fact that his reaction time should also succeed punishers as you can see in the spider-man scan, where he catches the gadget thrown at him from the side."
Oh I gotcha. But I never disagreed that Bullseye's reaction time wasn't better then Punisher's. But just cause he caught a device thrown by Spiderman doesn't put him so far ahead that it wins him the battle. Punsher has reacted fast enough to take down both Nightcrawler and Spiderman at the same time. I already posted that scan up top. So obviously his reaction time is pretty substantial as well.
Thank you, this has been my original point from the beginning. (or at least until I saw the setup lol). I wont call it ridiculous but I do think it favors the Punisher.
Thank you, this has been my original point from the beginning. (or at least until I saw the setup lol). I wont call it ridiculous but I do think it favors the Punisher."
It more then favors the punisher. This basically giving Punisher a huge bullseye to shoot at....no pun intended...though the picture of bullseye on Bullseye's forehead doesn't exactly help much. ANYWAY! Bullseye has to have one hell of a reaction time to dodge the incoming bullets coming at him basically at point black range. Punisher wins this if it's like this setup. If not, i see Bullseye winning.
"I'm curious to know what you guys would consider a fair set-up between Punisher and Bullseye."
Me personally, I think putting them in the prison was a cool touch. Leave it at that. Punisher and Bullseye are both inside a prison but on opposite ends (or at the very least not positioned directly in front of eachother). Their both aware the other is there to kill them. Bullseye has his standard gear (knives, cards, etc..) and Punsiher has his (couple hand guns, grenades, macine gun). Now they have an entire prison to play with. They'll be able to utilize their full range of abilities. Like actually having to think about what their doing as opposed to a 1,2,3 whoever fires first wins scenerio.
"I'm curious to know what you guys would consider a fair set-up between Punisher and Bullseye."
Me personally, I think putting them in the prison was a cool touch. Leave it at that. Punisher and Bullseye are both inside a prison but on opposite ends (or at the very least not positioned directly in front of eachother). Their both aware the other is there to kill them. Bullseye has his standard gear (knives, cards, etc..) and Punsiher has his (couple hand guns, grenades, macine gun). Now they have an entire prison to play with. They'll be able to utilize their full range of abilities. Like actually having to think about what their doing as opposed to a 1,2,3 whoever fires first wins scenerio."
There. Thats it. They are aware of each other but in different places. But imo, if Bullseye takes the first shot, he could kill Punisher.
"PunisherPunisher and Bullseye are serving sentences in Alcatraz when a break-out is started by some mobstersBullseye trying to spring their boss who is also located in Alcatraz. In the ensuing confusion Punisher breaks into the armory and arms himself with a machone gun, two pistols, and three grenades. Coming out of the armory Castle eventually, after killing criminals left and right on his way out he finds Bullseye killing everyone left and right with pieces of food and silverware (he's stored several knives up his sleeves for later use) from the cafeteria and rather enjoying himself. They stare each other down as anyone with sense quickly vacates the cafeteria before they begin their fight."
Me personally, I think putting them in the prison was a cool touch. Leave it at that. Punisher and Bullseye are both inside a prison but on opposite ends (or at the very least not positioned directly in front of eachother). Their both aware the other is there to kill them. Bullseye has his standard gear (knives, cards, etc..) and Punsiher has his (couple hand guns, grenades, macine gun). Now they have an entire prison to play with. They'll be able to utilize their full range of abilities. Like actually having to think about what their doing as opposed to a 1,2,3 whoever fires first wins scenerio."
That would probably work, it's just that I don't feel the current set-up limits any of their abilities except for possibly stealth (which they could still use) and the scenario you suggested leaves open the possibility that one might get the drop on the other so that when the battle actually starts, the one is already at a disadvantage. I think you're looking at it like it's an western-style duel and that's my fault for adding in the "stare-down" part but nowhere in my OP did I say that they were limited in their actions to shooting a gun and throwing a knife respectively. This is not a wild west showdown, they can dodge behind cover, they can take a hostage, they can dodge while throwing or shooting, Bullseye doesn't have to throw a knife at the beginning and I'm sorry if my OP put anyone under that impression.
Which is enough if you think about him being able to slit throats and stuff with straws and a coffee cup, hub-caps, toothpicks... um tablets are in a good favor hear, plats, porcelain shards
"Which is enough if you think about him being able to slit throats and stuff with straws and a coffee cup, hub-caps, toothpicks... um tablets are in a good favor hear, plats, porcelain shards"
I disagree. Punisher's defeated Bullseye before, I see no reason why he couldn't do it again. The toothpick he had to use a telescopic lens to aim before using, so it wasn't like he threw it in the heat of battle across a prison cafeteria. Although he probably could. The straw and coffee led where silly, Deadpool wasnt even paying attention and Bullseye was sitting behind him. But this all goes back to what Bullseye can do which I've already talked about. We all know he can use just about anything as a weapon. Does that mean he can never be defeated? Of course not. Some weapons he'd have to get in close enough to use. Which could be problimatic when faced with a machine gun and a man who already has him in his sights.
Prison's dont use real plates (for just that reason. No sharp edges or shards that could possibly be used as a weapon)
If the size of the cafeteria and its pillars help Bullseye would they not also help the Punisher? He doesnt have to be anywhere near as fast as Bullseye to dodge his knives. Which goes back to one of my orginal arguements. Bullseye can throw his knives first and still got shot up before they reach the Punisher.
"Bullseye outclasses Castle in just about every catagory."
So does Daredevil and Frank beat him more than once.In fact I would even go as far as to say he embarrassed Daredevil.I remember in one fight Daredevil asked him why he was holding back...."
Franks also beat Bullseye in the comics as well. Doesn't make the statement anyless true. Who beat who in comics matters what exactly? Firelord outclasses Spiderman yet Spidey won. Same with Gladiator and Gambit. The list goes on and on. Comic battles dont just take each characters abilities and then match em up. There's plot and story as well as an agenda before the fight ever takes place. If Frank embarrsed Daredevil yet Daredevil's embarrsed Bullseye but Bullseye's beaten Frank then how can u strictly go off their comic battles?
Anyway thats only one sentence out of like.....6 posts that for some reason you've choosen to address. In case you missed it I've been saying Punisher wins for the last two pages (since the scenerio was set up)"
I was trying add to your argument.I'm also saying the Punisher wins.It was a crappy response but I was tired lol.
Log in to comment