Punisher vs Batman's villains

@schillenger420:

Joker toxin would kill him and fear toxin would break his mind. Ivy also has pheromones which would control him.

@clownprinceofcrime1995: All of these things are possible. I don't dispute that one bit. However, the Punisher being the Punisher,... and having knowledge... he'd be pretty prepared. The main thing the bad-guys have going for them is they're used to fighting people who won't just kill them on sight. Castle has no such qualms. If he even see's the Joker or Ivy bullet's will fly, and Castle's not exactly a chump when it comes to accuracy. That guy tagged Spiderman.

@schillenger420:

Punisher doesn't have knowledge... He only had prep.

Tagging Spider-Man is PIS.

Joker has good accuracy feats too and if it's not bats he won't have issue shooting on sight either.

@clownprinceofcrime1995: Lol... I agree.... him tagging Parker was PIS, but he did have prep....:>) All i'm saying is that it's possible the Punisher clears. He's basically Batman who's willing to kill. IMO it'll give him a pretty good edge on this one that might... maybe get him through this. Ivy and Joker being the biggest threats. And yeah, without knowledge he likely loses... but on the other hand, this is Frank motherf***in Castle. The possibility is there.

@schillenger420:

He's basically batman but stupider, slightly worse in all physical aspects and has a more limited gadget list though is willing to kill.

Fear toxin and pheromones wouldn't work on Frank, he's proven resistant to stuff like it in the past.

@keenko:

Not scarecrows and Ivy's though. And resistant isn't enough. Batman has issue with them.

Frank Clears

Wow at the punisher fans seriously. Arkhamverse scarecrow will make him kill himself in fear. Poison ivy will distract him with hordes of pheromone infected men before crushing him with a giant vine. Bane could wear body armour and engage punisher h2h before breaking his back

He can take bane Imo. However Joker, Ivy, Freeze are problems.

Depends on prep. Without Prep on either side, he just shoots a lot of them.

@nthmetalwarrior: Bane's such a chump I can't believe you brought him up. If he strapped on body armor and charged he'd just get in the way of whatever Ivy and Joker were trying to pull.. knocking himself out and with the added bonus of allowing the Punisher time to punish. Bane is in fact that big of a jobber. By sheer virtue of being in this fight... whatever crew he's with automatically loses.

@schillenger420: Chill bruh. I had assume punisher takes on the villians one after another though O.O Poor bane though, he has been nerfed to the ground since knightfall

Frank has will just as strong as Bruce's. If Bruce can get through them, so can Frank.

Fear gas won't work because Frank is literally fearless.

Gallery

Shows resistants to hallucinogenics.

Gets injected with truth serum and lies about his own name.

Gallery

TP resistance.

Frank will have no issue with Scarecrow. Poison Ivy might be a tad more difficult but I don't think it's inconceivable that he beats her. He tears through Joker like tissue paper though.

Punisher wrecks everyone, with moderate difficulties.

@keenko:

The only character that fear gas has no effect on is Joker as he either fears everything anyway or is incapable of feeling fear. Feat toxin either exposes you to your worst fear (which frank will have as he is capable of fear) or drags you back to memories of intense suffering. Either way franks not lasting long. Batman overcomes Joker Toxin with limited exposure and innoculations, fee toxin through will although it takes a long time and he actually knows about it. Ivy's pheromones again is from constant exposure which frank doesn't have.

Truth serum is nothing to these toxins.

Telepathic resistance also won't help.

With prep joker dominates.

Stops at five. Anyone else who disagrees is honestly biased. 30 minutes is more than sufficient for scarecrow to control the battlefield

@nthmetalwarrior:

What do you fear Mr Castle?

@clownprinceofcrime1995: You literally ignored my first scan. Frank has no fear, if he did, Man-Thing's touch would've burned him. You've just concede that some people, Joker, are immune to fear gas so it isn't unheard of that people are immune to it. Frank has no fears so the gas won't work and even if it does, Frank has the will to tank through drugs, as I've already shown.

I can't solidly argue against Poison Ivy cause I've never read anything with her but unless she can tank a bullet to the head, which I don't doubt she can, Frank should be able to take her down I think.

Joker gets destroyed. We've gone over this. Joker can't avoid a shot from Frank who will shoot faster than he can. He gets destroyed.

Refer to my post above yours. Frank is fearless, fear gas won't work.

@clownprinceofcrime1995: Actually, I just remembered you from an earlier thread about Joker vs Punisher. Do you want to do a CAV Joker vs Punisher? Both have an hour prep and full knowledge?

Batman's villains know bats won't kill them. Punisher clears with ease. Long distance weapons, no remorse. He might have trouble with Ivy and Bane, but that's it.

@keenko: @keenko:

Not really? That just proves he isn't afraid of ManThing.

Joker is immune because he's batshit crazy, y'know his super sanity or whatever.

He hasn't shown to tank drugs at nearly the strength of these.

Ivy can create vines that throw building around.

Jokers pretty fast on the draw. Only a kill shot will stop him and he has prep so that's a joker gas filled field.

Can't do CAVs as I use my phone. Anyway with an hour prep and full knowledge joker stomps hard.

@clownprinceofcrime1995:

Not really? That just proves he isn't afraid of ManThing.

You're just making up a limitation. He burns anything that's capable of fear. That's literally always been his tag line.

Joker is immune because he's batshit crazy, y'know his super sanity or whatever.

He hasn't shown to tank drugs at nearly the strength of these.

That's hardly even an argument. You haven't present any counter argument, you've just off handily dismissed a feat. That's not how debating works. This is how it should work.

1. You make a claim. (Fear gas will work against Punisher.)
2. I counter and showcase specific feats to counter that claim. (Frank is fearless and has resisted drugs before.)
3. You present evidence to counter me. (Fear gas crippling high will individuals.)

This is what is, unfortunately, happening.

1. You make a claim. (Fear gas will work against Punisher.)
2. I counter and showcase specific feats to counter that claim. (Frank is fearless and has resisted drugs before.)
3. You dismiss my counter with some incorrect ideas about the powers of the characters used and then use a sort of baseless, bias abstract tiering that you came up with on the spot. (Saying fear gas is stronger than anything Frank's come into contact with.)

Ivy can create vines that throw building around.

I doubt that. I can't completely deny that to you because again I know next to nothing about Ivy but the fact that Batman fights her and she is consistently in street level fights on Comicvine, I don't think she effortlessly bust buildings.

Jokers pretty fast on the draw. Only a kill shot will stop him and he has prep so that's a joker gas filled field.

Punisher's faster we've already gone over this in prior threads. Kill shots with assault rifles aren't hard to pull off irl, and they're definitely easy to pull off when you're a master marksmen shooting someone with peak human reflexes at most. Frank won't even arrive to the battlefield. He'll just blow up/snipe Joker from a mile away.

Can't do CAVs as I use my phone. Anyway with an hour prep and full knowledge joker stomps hard.

Get a computer soon, buddy. I'd love to enlighten you.

@keenko:

Which makes no sense, he's obviously been afraid of something in his lifetime and whatever he has been of will come back. Just because he's not scared now doesnt matter.

The only decent quote from a terrible movie well done. The MCU is destroying itself with terrible movies. (IM2,3, AOU, Hulk, Hulk 2, Cap America 1)

I'll see if I can find the scan of ivy doing it and I'll post the link in an edit of this post.

Oh god if they don't have to turn up to the battlefield then this is spite for joker! He just bombs the place with gas. Kills the half the continent and moves on. If it ain't bats it's dead as far as he's concerned.

Before he became the punisher frank would have undoubtably have experienced feat. Scarecrows gas would take him back to that. Any upsetting time as it frequently does for batman, he doesn't fear his parents getting shot he's still a tad upset about it but the gas takes him to that often.

EDIT: Ivy feat

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/80103/3688376-2702696-2702694-2134841_1_super.png

@clownprinceofcrime1995:

Which makes no sense, he's obviously been afraid of something in his lifetime and whatever he has been of will come back. Just because he's not scared now doesnt matter.

Not really relevant. He's currently fearless. Frank's always been crazy so I don't know if I find it unbelievable that he's always been incapable of fear. Point being, he currently does not experience fear. Joker has experience fear in his time, but his current form is fearless and by even your own admission, he is unaffected by it. So there's no proof that it would just drag out the last thing that Frank MIGHT have feared at one point. And even if that did happen, Frank would tank through it as I've shown with my feats. Batman has done it so there really is nothing say that Frank couldn't.

The only decent quote from a terrible movie well done. The MCU is destroying itself with terrible movies. (IM2,3, AOU, Hulk, Hulk 2, Cap America 1)

It was a joke. I don't care to discuss movies with you. But for the record, I love MCU.

Oh god if they don't have to turn up to the battlefield then this is spite for joker! He just bombs the place with gas. Kills the half the continent and moves on. If it ain't bats it's dead as far as he's concerned.

That's such a laughable argument. Frank staying in a sniping position isn't not showing up to the battlefield lol. Beyond that Joker could kill an 1/8th of the continent if he tried. But you do bring up a good point, Joker is pretty much exclusively used to fighting people who won't kill him due to various reasons. For Frank, "if it ain't good it's dead as far as he's concern." Joker's hardily gonna be accustomed to Punisher's brutality.

Before he became the punisher frank would have undoubtably have experienced feat. Scarecrows gas would take him back to that. Any upsetting time as it frequently does for batman, he doesn't fear his parents getting shot he's still a tad upset about it but the gas takes him to that often.

Nah. Beyond that, Frank is pretty much over his family's death. It's his motivation but dozens of different characters have tried using it against him so he's good.

Ivy feat

I definitely agree she has the potential to beat Frank, but can she tank a headshot? If not then I still think Frank can take a solid majority.

@keenko:

Batman tanks through because HES BATMAN! Lol sorry but because he's experienced it multiple times and knows about it.

Yes it does count as not turning up or else Joker just gasses the entire city from a building where punisher can't hit him. Why would punisher be allowed to pick his spot and joker have to stand out in the open?

Used to love the MCU but it's letting itself down of late.

He's obviously not as he's still the punisher which was his coping mechanism.

She can just incase herself in the vines and swat frank with another. Angry Ivy is scary.

If Frank gets past HQ and Selina, then he definitely stops at Ivy. She's out of his league.

Why no clayface?

Batman tanks through because HES BATMAN! Lol sorry but because he's experienced it multiple times and knows about it.

Hah. Well, if Frank has 30 minutes of prep, and he at the very least knows he's in Gotham about to fight someone, I don't think it's unheard of for him to google up and figure out that he might have to go up against a gas hallucinogenic villain. Either way, unless it crippled him and someone else managed to swoop in and save him, I don't see how it means Scarecrow wins.

Yes it does count as not turning up or else Joker just gasses the entire city from a building where punisher can't hit him. Why would punisher be allowed to pick his spot and joker have to stand out in the open?

I don't think chemical weapons work like that, m8. Joker can't magically gas and kill the entire city with 30 minutes prep while also magically finding a building that Punisher can't touch him at. (Which is silly, because Frank could very well just blow up whatever building he tracks Joker down to.)

Beyond that, would Joker in character even do that? It's not inconceivable for Punisher to take a sniping/explosive victory because his style is just him trying to get the job done. Joker is incredibly flashy and insane, and I doubt he'd do such a blunt predictable move.

He's obviously not as he's still the punisher which was his coping mechanism.

Frank has pretty well accepted that his family is dead. He's killed revived ones from The Hood to prevent them being weaponized against him, for example. Like I said, they're still his motivation and he loves them, but he's moved on for the most part.

Gallery

She can just incase herself in the vines and swat frank with another. Angry Ivy is scary.

That's a completely valid attack, but Frank very well could shoot her before she does that. Beyond that, is that a in character move?

@strafe_prower: How would Frank have issues with Selina or Harley?

@nite_nite: @keenko:

Because clayface would stomp him horrifically. As would deathstroke or Deadshot.

Does Frank use google? Frank doesn't have knowledge on his opponents.

With prep placing bombs and cannisters everywhere? Joker can take over the world in a day gassing a city isn't hard compared to other thins he's done. Plus this is the city where joker has his crew. Also if Joker doesn't want to be found he won't be. Batman can't do it if he isn't given clues.

Joker in character would do anything. It's part of his awesomeness. He'd probably send castle on a goose-chase for a few days, make his life a living hell, break him mentally and physically after which with punisher in his knees he'd say Frank was no batman and shoot him in the head or joy buzz him.

Most part it's good enough

She surrounds herself in plants all the time it's not out of character.

@clownprinceofcrime1995:

Hey I ain't need da story bra. I know Frank can't stop Joker unless well prepped and given knowledge ahead of time. I just wanna know if it's Batman's rogues with an attempt to make Bruce and Frank closer, it should capture a more full scope. Batman dealt with the petty purse snatchers to the sewer freaks to the "there's five bombs in the city- riddle 1 what's small" dudes.

If anything the op is why he wouldn't make it in Gotham. He doesn't have knowledge, only the prep after each round. The first few rounds would make him comfortable and think that he's just going up against weirdly dressed guys with guns. His usual w/o the masks. So his prep would be more guns. Have you read his final run? Then he gets to scarecrow. Fear gas hits him. Now he puts a bullet in Sc. Sc's guts fallout and turn into his wife holding his sons body, which just reverted to an infant. All of a sudden his wife yells in agony as her skin starts to peel and char and smell like burnt flesh. When she throws her hand up it comes down as a knife repeatedly stabbing the baby boy, which doesn't move or make a sound. Just blood spurts. Frank yells runs over there to stop it and when he pushes the lady back, she looks up and reveals HIS face. The guy would be broken.

@nite_nite:

Only the first paragraph was for you.

To everyone who's saying frank is nothing but a brute with machine guns, didn't captain america, a tactician a shade below batman's level, say that frank was better than himself? Who's to say frank wouldn't raid Ironman warehouse like he did in, again, civil war?

@hollow_point:

On feats Cap is miles better, statements without evidence or clear reason why are nothing.

He shouldn't be able to raid IMs warehouse. Same writer that did the god awful wolverine steam roller thing?

Frank clears.

It depends on Poison Ivy's power level. If she isn't jobbing she can kill Frank with pheremones, poisons, and monster vines. Other than her, he clears.

Joker and Scarecrow both have a army of thugs in Gotham to turn it into their battle ground within 30 minutes. Punisher doesnt have anything in Gotham to use to his advantage

@keenko: Selina Would actually give Frank a run for his money. Her reaction timing is top notch and she literally dances around a bullets on a daily basis. id argue that Selina is just as skilled as Frank and is more agile and acrobatic. She can be every bit as ruthless and has an extremely high pain tolerance like him. She is just an overall good match.

Harley on the other hand poses a different problem. She is physically superior to Frank and has underrated intelligence and fighting skill. She could pose more of a problem than you think.

Ras Freeze bane and ivy should prove troublesome. He should lose to one of them.

@clownprinceofcrime1995:

Does Frank use google? Frank doesn't have knowledge on his opponents.

With 30 minutes prep in an unknown city to fight an unknown bad guy, it's not inconceivable that Frank might try and figure out who he's gotta kill.

With prep placing bombs and cannisters everywhere? Joker can take over the world in a day gassing a city isn't hard compared to other thins he's done. Plus this is the city where joker has his crew. Also if Joker doesn't want to be found he won't be. Batman can't do it if he isn't given clues.

30 minutes isn't enough to bomb an entire city, jfc. Joker couldn't take over Gotham in a year, he couldn't take over the world in his dreams.

Joker in character would do anything. It's part of his awesomeness. He'd probably send castle on a goose-chase for a few days, make his life a living hell, break him mentally and physically after which with punisher in his knees he'd say Frank was no batman and shoot him in the head or joy buzz him.

Joker has no feats to suggest he could survive a physical encounter with Frank. His best feats are sometimes putting up a fight with Batman and sporadically defeating a Bat family member. Actually what would happen is Joker would try and play Frank, Frank would torture a few goons to figure out where Joker is, then blow it up from across the road. Joker isn't accustom to fighting someone who doesn't care. He's just going to aim to kill him and get it over with.

Most part it's good enough

Ignoring the fact that you ignorantly ignored a section of my argument and took two words out of context, I've also already proven that even if it does work, Frank can get out of it.

She surrounds herself in plants all the time it's not out of character.

Can't argue one way or the other with this one.

On feats Cap is miles better, statements without evidence or clear reason why are nothing.

To be fair, Cap never said Frank was a better tactician, he just decided to go with Frank's plan. What's most impressive about the feat is that first and foremost, Frank's having to adjust his normal set of plans since he can't kill anyone and Cap says something about him being able to win a war or his own.

Gallery

He shouldn't be able to raid IMs warehouse. Same writer that did the god awful wolverine steam roller thing?

Why the hell is raiding Stark warehouses some sorta unbelievable feat for you? I don't understand. I feel like you just don't like Punisher so insist that everything he does is PIS, even when it clearly isn't.

And no, Garth Ennis wrote the infamous Punisher fights. I think it would be Mark Millar who wrote that.

Do you have any of those feats?

Punisher clears.

@keenko:

30 mins prep for joker is easy long enough to place bombs and gas everywhere. Remember it's the guy that out preps Batgod.

For a start joker doesn't tell his guys stuff. They have a job to do and that's it. Frank isn't smart enough to find joker without help.

Yknow IM supposedly having one of the best security systems in marvel? Frank being nowhere near a top level infiltrator. That's why it makes no sense.

@clownprinceofcrime1995: i mean you're obviously biased. Jokers you're favorite character that's cool, but going against the 30 min prep time, and saying joker could do something on that scale because he out prepped batman when joker had way more time than 30 mins isn't helping your case. Punisher beats joker 9/10 times. Ivy depending where she is at can't beat a prepared punisher. Punisher clear

@duhyeager:

Joker and prep has taken over Gotham, the world, arkham. Beaten the JLA, got superman to kill lois lane and more.

Ivy stomps punisher with a vine.

He's not getting past Ivy or Freeze.

Depends on what environment he's fighting (N52) Bane in and how well he's equipped.

Harley, Scarecrow and Ra's is 50/50.

Everything else he clears with ease.