Punisher v Batman, redux

The scenario: one of the Punisher's former war buddies is killed by the Joker, who has escaped from Arkham yet again after being captured by Batman. Frank decides that the blood of his old buddy, as well as the blood of anyone killed by Batman's rogues gallery after escaping prison is all on Batman's hands, and that Batman deserves to pay for it.

He travels to Gotham and while he lacks his usual contacts and safehouses, he spends two months stalking his quarry, studying his mannerisms, capabilities, tech and combat tactics. While Gotham is full of scum to be killed, Punisher does not want to alert Batman of his presence and keeps a low profile, establishing a sizeable cache of weaponry and a few safehouses, as well as keeping up his usual extreme training regimen. He is successful in preventing Batman from being aware of his presence, meaning that Batman is completely and utterly unprepared for any assault Frank may stage.

After two months of recon and prep, the Punisher stages a bank robbery by the Joker, successfully drawing Batman out for a Punisher-style ambush. Batman has his usual array of tech and gadgets, but thinks he's simply stopping another robbery and does not bring any specialized, heavy gear.

Under these conditions, who comes out the victor?

Batman

So Punisher with two months of prep, knowledge, extra gear and the element of surprise vs a totally unprepared, standard gear Batman, caught off-guard?

Punisher.

Batman

Punisher.

And yes, this is admittedly a fight that is heavily stacked against Batman, playing into all of the Punisher's strengths and stripping Batman of his primary strength (prep time). Of course, according to fanbois, Batman can NEVER lose, so there's that. =P

But let's be honest, if either Bats or Pun were realistically going to gun after the other, whoever is doing the hunting would do his best to catch the other off guard; both of them are heavily reliant on tech and prep and both the Punisher and Batman are terrifyingly deadly foes when armed and prepared. It only makes sense that Pun/Bats would stalk Bats/Pun for a good deal of time before trying to ambush his quarry.

Big Pun

Punisher but you sort of stole any glory by stacking the deck like this.

Punisher hunting a totally unsuspecting Batman, who has time to prepare for Batman and has set up the battleground? Yikes! With Batman thinking he is going after Joker, he won't think that his life is on the line, not at this level. This is too much of an advantage for Frank.

Punisher wins this one 9/10 times.

I'd argue that Batman vs Punisher (no prep) usual weapons/gear is a narrow win for Batman and not a stomp.

It seems that you want Punisher to win.

@dagmar_merrill: The last post I saw put the Punisher hitting Batman in the Batcave after Batman had 3 weeks to prepare, and after killing Alfred and Robin in front of Batman. It was ridiculous and Frank would never try something so suicidal. This is a thread designed to set up a realistic scenario in which the Punisher would ACTUALLY go after Batman, and one that stays true to his character (for example, he never goes after a target that is aware that he's coming and he never goes in unprepared). That's pretty much it.

Under these conditions I dont see how Batman can realistically win (i.e. without plot or PIS involved).

You should have come up with a different motivation for Punisher to attack Batman. I'm not buying that Punisher would decide to kill Batman for no reason other than Batman not murdering someone. Batman didnt do anything either illegal or immoral, nor did he violate his own code. And, Batman is not responsible for what the Joker does. So, why is Punisher holding Batman responsible? It makes no sense.

This is somewhat spite

@willpayton: There was a crossover comic with Batman and Punisher (Deadly Knights IIRC) and Punisher made it VERY clear that (in his mind) when Batman refuses to put a permanent stop to the Joker (or his other foes), and when they inevitably escape, any murders they cause are ultimately Batman's fault, because he didn't end them when given the chance. It's the same reason Frank hates Daredevil so much. So this motivation is actually very much in keeping with the Punisher's character and logic.

Well, ok.

Still, that seems like really bad writing. Killing criminals is what the Punisher does, not what Batman does. If the Joker is out there causing problems and killing people, then it's the Punisher's responsibility because he hasnt done what he does... i.e. kill dangerous criminals.

If he's going to hold Batman responsible, then how about the cops that arrested the Joker? How about the judge and legal system that didnt put the Jocker to death? How about the politicians that made the laws? How about the people who voted the politicians? Sounds like the Punisher has a beef with almost everyone in the entire country pretty much. I'm not sure he has enough bullets for the job.

The Punisher lives in a world full of super-powered heroes that dont kill criminals. How often does he try to kill them? Well... not very often. So, again, bad writing in that one instance.

The writer should have used a plot device to justify Punisher's decision... like for example having him be under the influence of some drug, or some psychological disorder, or whatever.

@jimboa26: You also put a massive jobber aura over Batman for this to work. Two months and Punisher is undetected by the top detective character in the big three? What do you expect people to think? Even Bane was only able to eves drop on Bruce when he was at a function as Bruce Wayne.

The fact that you are so adamant about this being legit makes me feel that you have not read the rules on how you are to avoid arguing a point to much in your own thread.

The idea that Punisher would kill a vigilante for not being a masked executioner is grossly OOC.

The idea that to kill Batman, Punisher would stand by for two months while the scum of ago than prey on the weak is insulting to anyone who has ever read up on the character. He may as well try this on Daredevil, as he has yet to kill anyone in California.

And what gear is Punisher bringing to this fight by the way?

Will he be willing to kill innocents to make this fake robbery look legitimate?

Who does he have that would call in the robbery in progress?

So much wrong with this thread.

And Batman wins unless there is reason to believe that Punisher knows just how well armored the Batsuit really is,

This

and the bottom half of this.

@i_like_swords: stop being a fanboy. Yeah sure you like the punisher. But you need to respect his place. Batman could effortlessly pull out his punisher with 2 months prep contingency plans and out think him before the fight even starts.

Punisher.

How long did the Court of Owls exist before "the Top Detective" knew anything about them at all? Over 100 years? Granted...Bruce wasn't operational for most of that...but for years they existed under his nose.

Yeah.

2 months isn't a big deal.

It amuses me that Batman is given these advantages in just about every battle thread, but if his opponent gets them, it's spite.

@lesterlawton:

"It amuses me that Batman is given these advantages in just about every battle thread, but if his opponent gets them, it's spite."

The difference is that Batman is so outclassed by High tier Street level characters that without days or weeks of prep he would be stomped. Two weeks one sided prep is arguably considered enough of a single sided advantage to put him at Spiderman/Wolverine level without access to the most OP of his gear and tech.

Two months of one sided prep and he is pitted against Lex Luthor and Tony Stark.

Threads with Spiderman and Bruce both get prep depend on stipulations as well. No vehicles. No Suits. Standard gear. To preserve the stomp of Peter's physicals. Or the dominance of Wolverine's HF. (No magnets/knowledge stipulations)

This would be enough time for Punisher to take on Spiderman level opponents. And having access to the more extreme street weapon tech of the DCU makes my claim of a Batman win at all just counter spite. Two months is enough time for Punisher to have Intergang weapons that can bruise Superman.

So yeah, this is spite. Two months to prep and potentially get weapons that can stagger Kryptonians, then have his opponent be a sitting duck looking away at a staged robbery. This is what the vine considers fair for a Batman thread.

Uh huh.

Ok. I get it.

Batman is supposed to be above Spiderman level now.

The last thread had him losing everything to punisher and still winning. Quite convincingly. But, other Street level characters would also win in those conditions who would lose to Spiderman quite handily. Deadshot stands out

@shawnbaby:

"How long did the Court of Owls exist before "the Top Detective" knew anything about them at all? Over 100 years? Granted...Bruce wasn't operational for most of that...but for years they existed under his nose.

Yeah.

2 months isn't a big deal."

1. Bruce found one of their headquarters when he was 12. Then he was locked inside.

2. The COO stopped their operations when he arrived as Batman until they got the Talon formula.

3. Because of 1. Bruce refused to believe they were anything but a myth. There is no bias for this.

4. They controlled the entire city, and could destroy all evidence/witnesses of their existence without fear of the GCPD doing anything about it. Except destroy evidence, because...GCPD.

They were around for more years than a hundred years. The biggest issue with the COO being comparable to Punisher is how each one is supposed to avoid detection. The Court had NO talons active shortly after Batman arrived in Gotham. Calvin Rose was one of the last. The last one was clearly inferior to the Bat, and the Court knew that if they stayed active, they would be caught. So they stopped killing people/observing the city with the Talons. If members of the court went without their masks to watch Batman at work, they would appear as ordinary citizens.

Punisher's method is to just somewhere watching with some high tech eye wear. It has been a good method against street hoods, but has never been a good method against highly trained opponents for anywhere near the time he has been given.

PS the Court seemed loosely modeled on the Know Nothings, KKK, and other organizations that actively repressed immigrants, minorities(Martha Wayne was Jewish), and new money is one of the reasons Snyder's Batman is so much better than most of what DC is printing. It has the fun to appeal to young readers(and the youth in older readers) as well as the depth to fascinate older and more knowledgable readers.

@senglord: I know they were around for more than 100 years. That's why my quote says "Over 100 years"...

Fact of the matter is that Bruce didn't find the COO because he wasn't looking for them...just like how he isn't looking for the Punisher. Frank is good enough at surveilance that he can keep an eye on Bruce without being seen...because Bruce doesn't know to look for him.

@shawnbaby: He may not be looking for the Punisher specifically but he would probably be looking for anyone like the Punisher. People stockpiling weapons and tech like him who may be taking down criminal organizations in an attempt to get more tech or the means to set up a trap like this like a base of operations. But that is hypothetical, with the OP set up as it is it's pretty much a Punisher stomp.

Saying Batman wins under these conditions is a joke.

Punisher cripples him

@shawnbaby said:

So much truth

Frank acquires weapons on tech without anyone ever knowing about it. Once again, if Bruce isn't looking directly for Punisher...Castle has the means to avoid him for 2 months.

How would Batman not know punisher would be showing up to Gotham for revenge? Wouldn't he use his detective skills to piece together that joker killed a former vet whom has ties with Frank? Also, if this fight was anywhere but in a Gotham I rule this a bad day for Bruce.

@i_like_swords said:

@shawnbaby said:

So much truth

I think the difference is that Batman's deck generally gets stack when he has to fight people outside of his random encounter tier. Not against people like Punisher or Deathstroke, but people like Spiderman or Superman. And when it is stacked against people like Punisher or Deathstroke a lot of people do lose their minds. In fact pretty much every Batman thread I have seen where Bats has prep people lose their minds at one point or another pulling out shit like "OMFG BATWANK" or "HERE WE GO AGAIN WITH THE BATGOD". The only thing worse than a person wanking something is a person getting butt hurt cause some people on the internet overestimate or overplay a fictional character, thus giving the butthurt individual the need and right to hate on that character and his fans blindly regardless of the situation.

Not saying that that is what you are doing, just commenting in general.

Since the OP stipulated that Batman has no knowledge of Frank stalking him (which he would have)....Batman still wins.

Punisher under these conditions

No one goes "OMFG Batwank" when Batman gets prep against someone like Spider-Man. You only get that kind of reaction when they put him up against someone like Galactus.

Look at this thread for example...even when it's pretty clear to any reasonable person that Batman is going to lose pretty badly here...there are still people trying to make the case that he wins. That it's impossible that Frank would be able to observe Batman for that long without Batman noticing. Problem with that being is that there are examples of Batman being studied without his knowledge. Bruce had basically no clue who Bane was until he showed up in his house and broke his back. Frank isn't going anywhere near that deep with his surveillance here. All he's doing is getting a basic idea of how Batman operates and laying low. He's not trying to figure out who Batman really is, where he lives, or anything like that.

No it happens plenty, pretty much every time Batman get's prep. At least for the duration of time I have been on CV which may not have been long enough to get a real feel of CV. And I'm not saying there aren't a shit ton of bat wankers or that there are a lot of people who throw around the "Batman wins with prep" or "Batgod" shit. So I understand the knee jerk reaction, it's well deserved as far as I'm concerned. Doesn't excuse clear spite threads like this one, which the OP all but admitted was supposed to be stacked against Batman. We can argue or disagree on the likelihood of Batman getting caught off guard like this, sure it happens, sometimes he is perfectly prepared for something like this. That fact is the OP has it set up like this so there is no arguing it and the way it is set up it is a clear biased stomp. And he seems to have set it up like this because he has a problem with Batman threads and the poster there with in. Not because he is genuinely curious if Batman can survive.

So basically like a random Deathstroke encounter minus the super enhance stats and healing factor, superior skills Slade has.

Batman beats Frank down. And anybody disagrees haven't picked up a bat book in their life if you think this is the first ambush of this caliber Bat has been in.

Batman wins yes.

Except he knew exactly who Bane was and what he was doing.

He had an idea Bane was targeting him for some reason. He didn't know where he was or how to find him. Bane learned everything he needed to know about Batman watching him. No reason Frank can't.

Not to mention Bane was already surveilling Batman for weeks before Bruce knew anything at all

Punisher.

@shawnbaby: If by surveillance you mean reading newspapers and watching T.V,they both met each other the first night Bane stalked him and knew full well later on that Bane was gunning for him,he was simply too preoccupied with other things.

All these recent punisher vs batman threads are designed for punisher to win because everyone knows punisher would never beat batman otherwise.

Punsher can beat Batman just like Batman can beat Spiderman or any other hero: with prep-time. Seriously, Batman fanbois who just dismiss Castle as a chump with a gun don't know jack shit about the Punisher. And Batman isn't God. He can be beaten and he's not omnipotent or omniscient. He's just a man with a lot of gadgets and a good intellect. He can be beaten, he can be outsmarted, and he can absolutely be outgunned.

In short, Batman isn't anywhere near as godly as his fans make him out to be, and Castle is way, way, way, way better (and far more lethal a threat) than the DC fanboys give him credit for. Punisher is by far the most underrated antihero among comic fans, and anyone who reads his comics knows it.

That said, if Punisher isn't prepared or at least knows what to expect when facing Batman, he's gonna lose big time unless he retreats. If Castle is prepared...at the very least, Batman is gonna bleed.

Agreed. In fact I tell people all the time that Punisher is truly marvel's Batman. The guy has backups for the backup that backs up his last backup.

@jimboa26: Like I said, he can't beat batman without prep, and he'd probably lose with prep too

Not true at all. Mine put them on completely even terms. Case could be made for either.

Ends in sex.

Or they morph together to create this:

@i_like_swords: *well except yours :)

@jayc1324: Only a rabid, blind fanboy (in other words, an idiot with a zealot-like devotion to his idol) would argue in total seriousness that a completely prepared Punisher would probably lose to an unprepared Batman. Batman is not a god, he's just a man. And like it's said in Game of Thrones: valar morghulis.

(That's "all men must die").

Did I mention that the Punisher is the chosen avatar/vessel/servant of Death? That's canon, by the way, but it's not something they beat readers over the head with. Read Punisher: Born, or various comics where supernatural-based heros (like Moon Knight) comment on the Punisher and his "master."

Maybe Punisher under these conditions. But if it was Arkham Batman he stomps.