Punisher/Bullseye vs Green Arrow/Red Hood

In character

composite Post Crisis and New 52 Green Arrow

Pre New 52 Jason Todd

random encounter

standard gear and abilities

Opponents are 15 feet away from each in an unpopulated city setting at night with plenty of cover

Winner by KO, incapacitation or death

who'd win? For what reasons?

Oliver Queen:

@serrure@616vulture@the_red_viper@funsiized@risingbean@patrat18@dagmar_merrill@demonknights@mrnoital

Red Hood:

@sync1@funsiized@god_spawn@pr0metheus@thitiki@transformers1024@allstarsuperman@koay

Punisher:

@i_like_swords@pokeysteve@super_soldierxii@oni_bane@cheesesticks@matchesmalone21@oceanmaster21

To be fair 15 feet away is not nearly enough for ranged weapons to come into play.

@the_red_viper: 30 feet away then.

At this close Jason can beat Frank. Bullseye is the one I'm not sure about. I've seen him toy with the punisher and he killed Elektra....but they have both came back and beat him since then.

To be fair I see no sense in Bullseye killing someone like Elektra in an up close and personal encounter but he's still no slouch. Oliver is also not to be underestimated with when he's pissed, he tends to be pretty ferocious. If it was only h2h I say it would either come down to Ollie and Jason ganging on Bullseye, or Jason VS Bullseye one on one.

Punisher and Bullseye should take this handidly

I'd like to say Bullseye beats Green Arrow, but those damn trick arrows...

Still, at 30', I think Marvel might take it. Red Hood is probably better at H2H than Frank, but Frank's got mad durability and I think I would say he's better in a firefight. Bullseye, despite what I said above, may be a bit better at just tossing tons of projectiles than GA.

If we switch it up, I think Bullseye has a pretty good chance against Red Hood, and Punisher would do well against GA. Marvel probably has better odds that way than the other combination.

But still, those damn trick arrows. That can change the whole game.

team 2

@impervious: Be sure to change OP for starting distance. And I recommend a blood-lusted GA without nuke arrows.

I'll side with Frank and BS. While Jason can close the distance, both are about even in fighting skills and marksmanship.

The problem is GA will hold Jason back because he lacks the h2h capabilities to put out BS and especially lacks the marksmanship abilities to take out BS. Although BS will toy around and Ollie does have his trick arrows, it wouldn't be enough especially since he's in-character. BS will most likely overcome GA and help Jason take the win with aid at distance.

L. D.

@llehdevil: Ollie doesn't hold Jason back in close quarters. He beat him in the past in fact.

And in-character Ollie uses his trick arrows all the time.

@the_red_viper: He falls short against a guy like Bullseye. And that was PIS.

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@llehdevil: it wasn't PIS. Deathstroke himself said that after his training with Natas, GA has become significantly better.

And what feats does Bullseye have against a swordfighter like Ollie without PIS (like when he for some reason killed Elektra)?

@the_red_viper: Since when did swordsmanship matter here?

And it still doesn't mean GA should be able to beat Jason like that.

L. D.

Green Arrow didnt beat Jason.....Jason was toying with him and nearly killed him with a bomb.

Swordsmanship matters because oliver carries a sword his quiver. and it was just that: a sword fight. h2h I would find it difficult to believe he'd win

Red hood > punisher

Ollie > bullseye in overall ability (bullseye will miss less though)

That being said, I choose team DC

@thefallens0n: Need to check up on those scans again, but I doubt swordplay is going to matter much. Unless he can cut projectiles in the air with his sword.

L. D.

It ended with Ollie disarming Jason then having both swords at his throat. Then it turned out that Jason's sword was explosive so it could be triggered if the need arises.

Since after the training he had with Natas, GA has carried a sword many times. And all I said was that GA isn't a weak link in this fight as far as close quarters go. Dunno if he would beat Bullseye but he would at least make him work for it.

@the_red_viper: no. It ended with Ollie walking right into Jason's trap. Jason mocking him. Then Ollie admitting he got played.

@allstarsuperman: Jason lost to Ollie. The explosive sword was a backup plan

Punisher and Bulleyes handily. Punisher is arguably the best marksmen here, and Bulleyes is no slouch himself. I believe that in hand 2 hand, Jason definitely has more tenique then Frank, but Castle is far more brutal and I believe the same could be said about Bulleyes and Green Arrow. As a combined effort I would give the slight edge to Frank and Bulleyes due to the fact that neither one has a problem killing their opponent.

@comicstooge: nope. But there is no reason to argue with you. The guy who thinks Damian is above Jason, despite getting his ass handed to him 3 times.

Yeah, but really how strong is the sword and how much of a factor will it be? He is sort of a weak link, not a complete one, but he is. You yourself are admitting you don't know if he'll beat Bullseye, and that he'd at least make him work for it, which are the key messages that I'm trying to convey.

But GA will make him work for the win.

L. D.

Bullseye and Punisher takes this. GA is a weak link at this distance because it's probably going to go h2h at this distance.

@allstarsuperman: New 52 Damian is leagues above Jason.

Holding his own against Heretic > One shotting a less impressive version of Shiva and beating a weakened Ra's Al Ghul

@llehdevil: Yes, I also don't know how Jason would fare against Bullseye. That is because the only thing I know of Bullseye regarding close quarters is him PIS-ing Elektra.

As far as long-range skill goes, GA is the best here. He can fire arrows faster than a machine gun.

Jason didn't lose on purpose to trigger that bomb. He had it as a backup plan. He was sure he's going to win until Ollie pulled that disarming maneuver.

Here is the fight:

Gallery

We were talking about how Ollie would fare against Bullseye though.

L. D.

I was responding to whoever said Oliver is a weak link for his team, stating that it's just false.

@the_red_viper: And yet Black Canary trashed him in two pages.

And Slade was able to trash Ollie and Dinah when he felt like it. They got zero hits in he did not give them.

Batman got more hits on Slade than Both...

I have no idea what Black Canary, Deathstroke or Batman have to do with this.

@the_red_viper: As always you leave out the most important part:

Jason was not only playing him, he was significantly holding back considering he was just buying time, he didn't actually want Ollie dead.

Gotta love how delusional you get about Damian. LMAO, "Holding his own", I think you mean "getting murdered".

Gallery

1. Heretic one shots Grayson. (Which in my opinion is PIS just so we could have the Damian vs Heretic fight.)
2. Nothing.
3. Damian cries for his mommy and daddy, then gets overpowered.
4. Heretic turns his back on Damian and walks away, giving him the opportunity to shoot him in the back while he's not even paying attention.
5. Damian attacks while Heretic is not paying attention to him, Damian gets shot by fodder, nearly gets his back broke, stabs heretic with arrows, and kicks him across the face. None of this hurts Heretic. Damian gets shot by fodder some more, then gets thrown around.
6. Damian gets stabbed the moment Heretic took him half way seriously.
7. Poor Batman.

If anything is impressive here, it's Damian's pain tolerance. Thats it. Damian's skill is nothing here. Yes, he landed hits on Heretic. But that's just how Heretic fights, he tanks things. Just look at his fight with Batman.

One shotting a less impressive version of Shiva

I think you mean a more impressive version of Shiva. New 52 Shiva beat Batman and Robin at the same time when she was only 15 years old.

and beating a weakened Ra's Al Ghul

I believe to you mean, beating an amped Ra's Al Ghul with the full power of the Untitled.

could go either way

@allstarsuperman: Lol, both Brick and Jason knew they couldn't win, hence they were only trying to hold their respective opponents off for a little while.

Damian took strikes from, wounded and stunned Heretic, whereas Dick got one-shotted. Jason would too.

Ra's was weakened and Jason admitted he'd get stomped by Ra's normally. Dondave has the scans.

No, just Brick was. Jason wasn't even trying to win.

Damian took strikes from, wounded and stunned Heretic, whereas Dick got one-shotted. Jason would too.

LMFAO, yeah the guy who takes a barrage of punches from Donna Troy is gonna get one shotted.

@allstarsuperman: Batman could punch through explosion proof vehicles and Dick soaked hits from him, yet he got one-shotted by Heretic. Shiva poisoned Batman to beat him.

Honestly, how could you ignore facts that are right in front if you? Jason is the worst in the Bat-family in literally every physical and mental aspect, except the fact he has an alien friend that makes his book terrible and gives him shiny space guns

And Jason's soaked hits from Batman as well? So.....

Shiva poisoned Batman to beat him.

Like Batman doesn't have a hundred feats off resisting poisons....

Honestly, how could you ignore facts that are right in front if you? Jason is the worst in the Bat-family in literally every physical and mental aspect, except the fact he has an alien friend that makes his book terrible and gives him shiny space guns

You literally couldn't be more wrong. But that's not a shock at all considering you've never read a Jason Todd book in your life, and that all you know of him is from either bad writers in other titles or the battle forums.

Jason is just as fast as Grayson reaction wise (both point blank bullet timers), nearly as agile as him (Batman directly says so), is stronger then him (He's punched apart bullet proof glass.). And is way more skilled considering he one shots Shiva, while Dick gets one shotted by Shiva.

Are you talking about the bat bike? If so what showings does it have? The batmobile was blown up with plastique during Hush.

Jason or Dick? Either way I don't see how either could take hits from her unless we are saying that someone like batman can't even hurt them. The only other explanation is she didn't hit them with her full force for either plot reasons or morals.

I think it had some good durability in Batman Eternal IIRC.

Jason or Dick? Either way I don't see how either could take hits from her unless we are saying that someone like batman can't even hurt them. The only other explanation is she didn't hit them with her full force for either plot reasons or morals.

They both have. I don't know that circumstance of Graysons, but Jason took 2 or 3 hits from her while she was pissed off. And he also took 4 hits from the Forerunner, who nearly one shotted Donna......but that's kinda ridiculous.

@allstarsuperman:

I think it had some good durability in Batman Eternal IIRC.

Well to be honest I am pretty sure the plastique thing is a low showing. But I keep seeing people say the bat-bike is missile proof or ultra durable but I haven't seen much to support it. The batmobile should be the>>>>bat-bike based on it being a car and batmans main way of getting around. I mean I can assume the bat-bike is more durable than a regular bike since its purpose is to fight crime I guess but I am unaware of any significant feats for the bat-bike.

They both have. I don't know that circumstance of Graysons, but Jason took 2 or 3 hits from her while she was pissed off. And he also took 4 hits from the Forerunner, who nearly one shotted Donna......but that's kinda ridiculous.

I remember Grayson taking a back hand from Donna Troy which sent him flying through a wall. I think that is a good durability feat since he went through a wall not because he took a hit from Donna Troy. Logically she should be able to one shot any street leveller. Did anything happen similarly with Jason or did she just knock him around?

@jashro44: She punched him a couple times, one in the helmet, and one in the belly, at least. He got dropped, but he didn't lose consciousness or anything. He pretty much got right back up with no injury.

@allstarsuperman: Post a hundred feats of Bruce resisting poison in the New 52 and I'll agree Jason's that good.

Yeah, cause that's totally a thing. NOT. You know damn well Batman's feats carry over. Don't be a moron.

@allstarsuperman: You could be right. BUT, Jason makes no comment about tricking Oliver, it's just Oliver jumping to conclusions. I wouldn't count on that as much as you do now.

@allstarsuperman: Calm down. New 52 Bruce and pre-reboot Bruce aren't interganale consider many characters Bruce had feats against pre-reboot are all totally changed. The timelines don't fit.

Anyway, Frank shoots Jason through the face

@the_red_viper: Frank would have killed Norman Osbourn from 2 miles away if it had not been for Sentry. Also he recently stated that could hit a shot from 4000 yards away which is roughly 3 and 1/2 miles. He also has a knack for tagging bullet timers. That includes Daredevil and Wolverine. Guns> Bow and Arrow.

@mrnoital: I'd call that feat PIS. How could he slice a flying arrow he didn't see, aimed at him, then be captured by brick in the next scene that was right beside him the entire time. Throws the feat out the window.

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