Proteus Vs Alpha the Ultimate Mutant

@nekoneko: @LordOfAllHumans: @Jezer:   Sounds like you guys are confusing telekinesis, matter manipulation, and reality warping as three different powers. All of them are psionic so that means to control with thought. Alpha is a high tier psionic being. He can use thought to PSIONICALLY control energy/matter. He can use his psionic powers to control time, space, energy, matter at a much higher rate and reach than Proteus. Proteus can not warp Mars from Earth. Alpha can warp Mars while he's in the center of a Galaxy during a different time line. The reason why Alpha is not on Earth is because he is higher evolutionary and continues to evolve which Proteus HAS limits.  Realistically, Aphla the Ultimate Mutant is similar to HP Doomsday with the Cosmic Stranger's powers. There is no way in hell, Proteus is above Stranger or anywhere near a well feed Galactus. If you guys say that Proteus can beat Alpha, that's like saying he can beat Karvoc, a Galactus Engine, Abraxus, IGV, The Phoenix Force Unleashed, or Chaos King. And it's obvious that he can not.

@MagneticShockwavesaid:

@nekoneko: @LordOfAllHumans: @Jezer: Sounds like you guys are confusing telekinesis, matter manipulation, and reality warping as three different powers. All of them are psionic so that means to control with thought. Alpha is a high tier psionic being. He can use thought to PSIONICALLY control energy/matter. He can use his psionic powers to control time, space, energy, matter at a much higher rate and reach than Proteus. Proteus can not warp Mars from Earth. Alpha can warp Mars while he's in the center of a Galaxy during a different time line. The reason why Alpha is not on Earth is because he is higher evolutionary and continues to evolve which Proteus HAS limits. Realistically, Aphla the Ultimate Mutant is similar to HP Doomsday with the Cosmic Stranger's powers. There is no way in hell, Proteus is above Stranger or anywhere near a well feed Galactus. If you guys say that Proteus can beat Alpha, that's like saying he can beat Karvoc, a Galactus Engine, Abraxus, IGV, The Phoenix Force Unleashed, or Chaos King. And it's obvious that he can not.

I'm not confused, it's just that telekinesis can be used as matter manipulation, and apprently there's no difference between them when telekinesis is used in the same way as matter manipulation. Technically every powers that is mind-based should be considered psionic, making the difference between controlling psionically matter (matter manipulation), and controlling matter psychically (telekinesis), harder to explain and understand.

You said alpha via his psionic powers can control time, space, energy and matter, while he had just controlled energy and matter in the comics he appears (sorry if I'm wrong); he only has high level telepathy and telekinesis. Proteus on the other hand, is just limited by his imagination. I don't doubt alpha's more powerful than proteus, but proteus, due to his powers, has more versatility allowing him to take the upper hand sometimes.

You said alpha via his psionic powers can control time, space, energy and matter, while he had just controlled energy and matter in the comics he appears (sorry if I'm wrong); he only has high level telepathy and telekinesis. Proteus on the other hand, is just limited by his imagination. I don't doubt alpha's more powerful than proteus, but proteus, due to his powers, has more versatility allowing him to take the upper hand sometimes.

proteus is a kid throwing a tantrum. alpha is better.

@MagneticShockwave said:

@nekoneko: @LordOfAllHumans: @Jezer: Proteus can not warp Mars from Earth. Alpha can warp Mars while he's in the center of a Galaxy during a different time line. The reason why Alpha is not on Earth is because he is higher evolutionary and continues to evolve which Proteus HAS limits.

Where does Alpha do this? I just went looking for information on him, and the only issue I could find with feats for him was Defenders 16. There were only a handful of other issues I could find that contained him at all (I think maybe 4 or 5 other comics, meaning he might have 6 appearances total), and I think 2 or 3 of those were just flashbacks to him turning Magneto into a baby, with the others seeming to be little more than cameos.

Realistically, Aphla the Ultimate Mutant is similar to HP Doomsday with the Cosmic Stranger's powers.

I don't really see the comparison to DD at all (their "evolution" works in pretty different ways), and the comparison to the Stranger seems kind of random and unfounded. He didn't actually do anything in that issue to indicate he is at that power level, or above Proteus.

There is no way in hell, Proteus is above Stranger or anywhere near a well feed Galactus. If you guys say that Proteus can beat Alpha, that's like saying he can beat Karvoc, a Galactus Engine, Abraxus, IGV, The Phoenix Force Unleashed, or Chaos King. And it's obvious that he can not.

Those characters are all at wildly differing power levels. You basically go from comparing him to the Stranger to comparing him to Eternity. That's a pretty big gap.

@MagneticShockwave said:

Think about what energy is. Energy is a force and it can be any force to any cause and effect. What controls force. Frequencies. Where do frequency come from? Electromagnetism.

That's not really accurate. Force is the product of a mass undergoing acceleration (or an object experiencing a change in momentum, to word it more closely to what Newton said). Energy is kind of vague and can result from a lot of things, but doesn't necessarily have any real dependence on frequency (kinetic energy, for example). Electromagnetic waves have a frequency, but to say the frequency "comes" from the waves is not really right; it is an inherent property. If there was no frequency, there would be no wave.

I'm not sure why this matters anyway though. Proteus can also manipulate energy.

Alpha controls energy and he evolves so the energy he controls is at an evolving rate. (AND HE EVOLVES FAST). Therefore he has no known limit to the energy he controls meaning,

That doesn't follow at all. He has a limit at any given point in time, your argument is just that his limit continually increases. Plus, while he was evolving during that issue, that doesn't mean he never stopped, and it is also useless to speculate upon how powerful he may or may not have become in later years, since he never seems to show up again.

he's not limited to matter like Proteus is.

Proteus is not limited to matter.

Alpha can control time and space with his psionic powers by the energies he controls. "Proteus is only limited to his imagination", but apparently his imagination has limits compared to Alpha who can evolve more imagination.

You just made that up. Where is anything said about Alpha's imagination? You're just taking the idea that he spontaneously evolves and running with it in whatever direction you feel like.

In conclusion this the topic, Proteus has the imagination comprehension of an average human being with some education. Alpha has the imagination of cosmic beings who are nearly omniscient.

Still sounds made up.

Anything that Proteus can do. Alpha can do and better.

The few things I've seen Alpha do, Proteus could do better. Alpha turned a handful of people into babies. Proteus turned an entire city and everyone in it into math. The latter seems quite a bit more impressive to me, not to mention more imaginative.

Does anyone have an appearance for Alpha besides Defenders 16 where he actually does something notable?

@MagneticShockwave said:

@nekoneko: @LordOfAllHumans: @Jezer: Proteus can not warp Mars from Earth. Alpha can warp Mars while he's in the center of a Galaxy during a different time line. The reason why Alpha is not on Earth is because he is higher evolutionary and continues to evolve which Proteus HAS limits.

Where does Alpha do this? I just went looking for information on him, and the only issue I could find with feats for him was Defenders 16. There were only a handful of other issues I could find that contained him at all (I think maybe 4 or 5 other comics, meaning he might have 6 appearances total), and I think 2 or 3 of those were just flashbacks to him turning Magneto into a baby, with the others seeming to be little more than cameos.

Those characters are all at wildly differing power levels. You basically go from comparing him to the Stranger to comparing him to Eternity. That's a pretty big gap.

1. Forcefields (Each time he uses a power he evolves more and at an incredibly fast rate)
2. Teleportation (remember, every time he uses his power, he evolves)
3. Telepathy (He has the ability to learn now)
4. Telekinesis
5. Matter Transmutation
6. Electromagnetism
7. Gravity 
8. Space (Mastering teleportation to the point he can be at all places)
9. Time (Mastering time to the point he can be at any timeline)
10. Can turn into what ever he wants
11. Can understand the source of magic

That's not really accurate. Force is the product of a mass undergoing acceleration (or an object experiencing a change in momentum, to word it more closely to what Newton said). Energy is kind of vague and can result from a lot of things, but doesn't necessarily have any real dependence on frequency (kinetic energy, for example). Electromagnetic waves have a frequency, but to say the frequency "comes" from the waves is not really right; it is an inherent property. If there was no frequency, there would be no wave.

I'm not sure why this matters anyway though. Proteus can also manipulate energy.

  Proteus is not limited to matter.

You just made that up. Where is anything said about Alpha's imagination? You're just taking the idea that he spontaneously evolves and running with it in whatever direction you feel like.

Still sounds made up

The few things I've seen Alpha do, Proteus could do better. Alpha turned a handful of people into babies. Proteus turned an entire city and everyone in it into math. The latter seems quite a bit more impressive to me, not to mention more imaginative.

Does anyone have an appearance for Alpha besides Defenders 16 where he actually does something notable?

@nekoneko:  @LordOfAllHumans:  
 
Psionic is the power to control any power with the mind. Not just telekinetic moving objects with the mind. For example. Magneto's power is psionically based. He controls Magnetism, but is that considered telekinesis? To an extent it is, but the power is Electricmagnetism based. He controls it with his mind and therefore is able to control atoms via the electrons of every atom known in existence. But when Magneto mentally manipulates subatomic energies and matter, do people call it telekinesis? No, they consider it psionic control over the electromagnetic spectum. 
 
If Magneto levitates water, moves it from one place to another and then turns it into ice sculptures. He's not using telekinesis. He's using his mind to  Magnetically use the power of the electron of an atom to do the bidding of his mind. 
   
As Magneto once said, "Magnetism is magic".

  
 

 

   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

You said alpha via his psionic powers can control time, space, energy and matter, while he had just controlled energy and matter in the comics he appears (sorry if I'm wrong); he only has high level telepathy and telekinesis. Proteus on the other hand, is just limited by his imagination. I don't doubt alpha's more powerful than proteus, but proteus, due to his powers, has more versatility allowing him to take the upper hand sometimes.

 Think about what energy is. Energy is a force and it can be any force to any cause and effect. What controls force. Frequencies. Where do frequency come from? Electromagnetism. Alpha controls energy and he evolves so the energy he controls is at an evolving rate. (AND HE EVOLVES FAST). Therefore he has no known limit to the energy he controls meaning, he's not limited to matter like Proteus is. Alpha can control time and space with his psionic powers by the energies he controls.   "Proteus is only limited to his imagination", but apparently his imagination has limits compared to Alpha who can evolve more imagination. Also, the argument of imagination is moot for this subject, because imagination can be leveled. You can compare your imagination to someone who lives in the bottom of a 3rd world country that has never seen a car before, and while you can imagine of giant space craft that can transform, the person at the lower civilization can only imagine sticks and stones that can fly and talking animals. In conclusion this the topic, Proteus has the imagination comprehension of an average human being with some education. Alpha has the imagination of cosmic beings who are nearly omniscient. Therefore there is an obvious large gap between comprehension and power here.  Anything that Proteus can do. Alpha can do and better.

I think Alpha win's. It has bean lots of years sens he last shown, Meaning the it only toke him few hours to surpass everyone in earth.

@LordOfAllHumans: Aside from the detailed research, I'm going to get to the point of your point. Storm can move objects with wind. Is that telekinesis or psionically controlling the wind to move it? Psionic is what the mind does naturally. "Think".  
 
Psi = Mind It's a Greek word so it's much older that 1952.   Tele = Distance  Kinesis = Movement  Telekinesis = Moving things that are distant from your mind    The mind is the controller, the medium is the thought (or astral energy) and the Kinesis is the result    For someone like Storm who can psionically control the Weather.  The mind is the controller, the medium the wind and the Kinesis is the result.   However, Do we consider Storm's powers over the wind Arokinesis? Her Lightning and ability to flash freeze Electrokinesis and Cyrokinesis? or just telekinesis? I asking because if her powers fall under the definition of telekinesis that means all mutants who have psionic powers use telekinesis. Even Invisible Woman is can psionically manipulate hypermatter energy to move objects.

@MagneticShockwave said:

Your argument completely avoided the point of mine.
1974 through 2011 = 37 years to evolve

No, you said he could alter Mars from another timeline. I asked where it was actually shown he could do something like this. You also haven't shown that the has continued evolving for those 37 years, or that it was at the same rate, and it's kind of irrelevant, since the argument should be about him as he appeared, not as he may or may not have become in 37 years of absence (plus, Marvel's timeline doesn't directly correspond to ours like that anyway).

1. Forcefields (Each time he uses a power he evolves more and at an incredibly fast rate)

1. Teleportation (remember, every time he uses his power, he evolves)

1. Telepathy (He has the ability to learn now)

1. Telekinesis

1. Matter Transmutation

1. Electromagnetism

1. Gravity

1. Space (Mastering teleportation to the point he can be at all places)

1. Time (Mastering time to the point he can be at any timeline)

1. Can turn into what ever he wants

1. Can understand the source of magic

The first 5 I saw. The next 6 are the ones that I was hoping you could actually provide a source for instead of just claiming they exist.

These are the powers he he left the Earth in just within 5 issues. 2 other issues, he's in different timelines just observing the universe and all it's alternitive timelines and parallel universe just learning everything there is to know about Eternity and enduring/evolving and leveling up with new powers and mastering them as time progresses for him.

Observing the universe and different timelines and dimensions doesn't necessarily mean he's exceptionally powerful.

Protues can not evolve passed what he is.

It doesn't matter, since "what he is" is extremely powerful to begin with.

Everything has a frequency. Your body is a frequency. Kinetic, Potential, thought, and even magic as a frequency. In physics, a frequency is what keeps our atoms of our bodies from flying apart. Protons and Neutrons just don't stick to eachother. They need to fit and only a frequency can determine that.

Protons and neutrons combine into nuclei via the strong nuclear force. I'm not aware of any strong frequency dependence in the force, I thought it mainly depended on distance and what kind of quarks the protons and neutrons are made of.

Same can be said about how electrons keep atoms together otherwise if you use your hand (a forcefield of a atom via electrons) to touch any other object (which have their own forcefield of atoms via electrons) would fuse with your hand. But obviously, if you grab an apple, that apple doesn't become fused with your hand. That's because of the different atom frequencies.

I think it has more to do with how they form molecular bonds.

Proteus can manipulate energy, but not as well as a being how evolved for nearly 4 decades.

That's the assumption you keep making. Alpha evolves, therefore he must be more powerful than Proteus. Not really. You haven't actually shown him capable of anything that fantastic, you just keep talking about how fantastic he must have become just for being alive a long time.

Accepting or stating that Proteus is above this is the same as saying Proteus is more powerful an energy manipulator than Molecule Man or Eternity.

This would only be the case if you could establish that Alpha is comparable to Molecule Man or Eternity, which you also haven't done.

His energy projection and reality altering is limited to matter. Body possession is not relevant to what you quoted me in.

Proteus can manipulate energy and alter space at the least. He is not restricted to matter.

Sounds like you're the one making things up, if you're comparing an Earth bound mutant to be more powerful a cosmic mutant not bond to Earth but the Multiverse.

That's not even an argument. Their relationship to earth doesn't mean anything here. It's just as meaningless as when people claim Thor can beat Superman because Thor is a "god." It doesn't mean anything. What matters is their power. You haven't actually shown Alpha to possess such power, you just claim it and make a lot of assumptions.

You are the one denying living life can not imagine things, but contradict yourself that Proteus can. When Alpha created an small army of rock soldiers against the Defenders, was he NOT using his imagination? Everytime he uses his powers and evolve does he NOT use his imagination? How about when he visits other universes and timeline. Is he pushing a button or NOT using his imagination to get him there?

I'm not saying he has no imagination at all, I'm saying your assertion that he can "evolve more imagination" is made up. Evolving doesn't automatically mean giving him more imagination. And nothing he did in Defenders was more imaginative than Proteus.

People are math.... I already explained that with frequencies.... What's the point of turning them into math when they already are?

You really have no idea what you're talking about, I think. Now frequency=math? You may as well argue that mass=math, or height=math for all the sense that makes. They're numbers, sure, but anyone who's seen X-Force Annual knows that Proteus did a bit more than nothing. What Proteus did to Edinburgh and its inhabitants was a substantially greater manipulation that simply making someone younger like what Alpha did.

Defenders roster has a lot of power characters, but who was the one leading them?

I wasn't asking for a roster of who he fought in the comic I already read, I was asking for actual appearances he's made in other issues where he might have actually done any of the things you are talking about. I'm kind of guessing at this point that he hasn't.

Alpha fought and defeated the Defenders, the Avengers, some of the X-Men, and the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants all at the same time.

No he didn't. Not in Defenders 16, anyway. He fought the Defenders. The X-Men and Avengers weren't there. The Brotherhood didn't really get a chance to fight him before he changed them, and at that point the Defenders weren't fighting him anymore anyway. In fact, Professor X stopped Dr. Strange from even having a rematch with Alpha.

Can Proteus defeat all of them at the same time granted with or without Dr. Strange? I didn't think so.

You think wrong. I would fully expect Classic Phoenix to be capable of soloing everyone present at that fight, and Proteus beat her. Conversely, Alpha didn't actually fight everyone at once, despite your claims, so the feat is significantly less impressive than you made it sound in the first place. The only arguable element is Dr. Strange, who was unprepared for Alpha the first time, and is hardly consistent in his feats. At one point he was defeated by Loki in just his astral form, but it's not like anyone pretends Loki is a match for the Living Tribunal or Eternity.

@MagneticShockwave said:

Your argument completely avoided the point of mine.
1974 through 2011 = 37 years to evolve

No, you said he could alter Mars from another timeline. I asked where it was actually shown he could do something like this. You also haven't shown that the has continued evolving for those 37 years, or that it was at the same rate, and it's kind of irrelevant, since the argument should be about him as he appeared, not as he may or may not have become in 37 years of absence (plus, Marvel's timeline doesn't directly correspond to ours like that anyway).

1. Sise-Neg
2. Protege
3. Nebulos
4. Alpha
5. Abraxus
6. Hunger

The first 5 I saw. The next 6 are the ones that I was hoping you could actually provide a source for instead of just claiming they exist.

  Proteus can manipulate energy and alter space at the least. He is not restricted to matter.

I'm not saying he has no imagination at all, I'm saying your assertion that he can "evolve more imagination" is made up. Evolving doesn't automatically mean giving him more imagination. And nothing he did in Defenders was more imaginative than Proteus.

You really have no idea what you're talking about, I think. Now frequency=math? You may as well argue that mass=math, or height=math for all the sense that makes. They're numbers, sure, but anyone who's seen X-Force Annual knows that Proteus did a bit more than nothing. What Proteus did to Edinburgh and its inhabitants was a substantially greater manipulation that simply making someone younger like what Alpha did.

  Dr. Strange, who was unprepared for Alpha the first time, and is hardly consistent in his feats. At one point he was defeated by Loki in just his astral form, but it's not like anyone pretends Loki is a match for the Living Tribunal or Eternity.

 Power of the extradimensional being known as Raggadorr forces the Living Tribunal cast the power of the Seraphim to protect itself.
   
Which is indeed in relations and in defense for this :::

      

   

 
The problem with debate is that you NEED feats to argue. You WANT TO COMPREHEND IT, BUT YOU CAN'T. But that's not my problem. You're the one fighting against the tide of history, no me. If you ever read the comic, you would know that he too powerful and understand why Marvel stopped publishing him. It's the same reason Protege & Sise-Neg. Alpha belongs with these characters. Proteus does not. I don't know whether you are arguing for the fun it or you really believe deep down in your heart that Proteus is more powerful than Onslaught, Mad Jim Jaspers, PR Molecule Man The Cosmic Stranger & Galactus. 
 
HE IS NOT. 
   

Let's look at the Comicvine Track record: 
 
Proteus vs Onslaught = According to everyone debating, he is a non-factor  
 
Proteus vs Captain Atom = Atom wins 
 
Proteus vs Dr. Doom = Doom wins
 
Proteus vs Thanos with no IG = Thanos wins more raw power and can not be warped.

Proteus vs Adversary = Adversary wins
 
Proteus vs Shazam = Shazam wins easily    
 
Proteus vs Dr. Manhatten = Manhatten because The_Creator says so. Yeah, The Creator is never wrong according to Comicvine.
  
Proteus vs Thor = Thor wins 
 
Proteus vs Superman = Will have acceptable problems facing Superman 
 
Proteus with a team vs Silver Surfer = Surfer wins 
 
Proteus vs Juggernaut = Juggernaut wins.
  
Proteus team (with Alpha) vs Human, Inhumans, Cosmics = Proteus team looses 
 
Proteus vs Black Adam = More votes for Black Adam 
 
Proteus vs Sersi = Looks like a tie 
 
Proteus vs Ghost Rider = Ghost Rider wins 
 
Proteus vs Magneto = Magneto wins
 
Proteus vs New Son = New Son would have won if people debated 
 
Proteus vs Janamba = Janamba has true reality warping that's on a multiversal scale 
 
Proteus vs Silver Surfer = Surfer wins 
 
Proteus vs the Shadow King = Well, Shadow King would have won that. He easily took over Legion's mind and the thousands of personas were under the command of Shadow King 
 
Proteus vs Legion = Legion with ease 
 
Proteus vs Juggernaut (one on one) = Lance Uppercut - "Juggernaut's power will override Proteus." everyone else picks Juggernaut.