Professor Zoom vs Zoom

Not to contradict, just curious about something you posted. Your first statement relies on the implication that Professor Zoom would be able to enter the timestream and kill Zoom before Hunter, who hits as hard as Wally, knocks his face in. If Wally has 1-shotted Thawne, allowing for "upgrades" from writers in Rebirth, Rogue War and Flashpoint; wouldn't it be presumable that Hunter Zolomon could annihilate Eobard Thawne before any physical or mental retort could transpire? You made the statement up top that:

"Bloodlusted Wally is significantly faster than Thawne and hits hard enough to KO him -- could kill him if he feels like it with the vibrating hand thing, considering he can make things explode with the vibrating hand, too.

This was before Wally had merged with Walter and learned his speed stealing powers, which should work just fine on Thawne as it has defeated a multitude of speedsters before and has literally only failed against Zoom because Zoom doesn't actually use speed. Speed Steal to slow him down and an IMP or Vibrating Hand to the face takes Thawne out fairly easily."

Wouldn't a Bloodlusted Hunter Zolomon be more of a threat in a random encounter? I am not pretending to know, just curious of your thoughts. Why Wally could do something that Hunter is essentially the best at, while Hunter could not?

@whitelantern_1: Bloodlusted Zolomon is much faster than Bloodlusted base Wally. The point is that if Thawne tried to do the "go back in time and screw with your timeline" thing, Wally has the power to follow him. Hell the second time he beat Thawne he literally dumped him off in the future like it was a casual jog to go back and forth a few hundred years.

Zolomon can't follow Thawne if Thawne dips into the time stream. It'd come down to if Zolomon could kill Thawne faster than Thawne can react and I'm skeptical on that, as Wally could still perceive Zoom even if he wasn't fast enough to stop him from trouncing him.

This is my confusion. If Zoom snaps his fingers to create sonic booms that destroy city blocks, hits harder than Superman when he's trying to "make [Diana] better" while he's not even trying to truly hurt; then how could Thawne hope to defend himself when West, who you said is much faster than Thawne, couldn't even protect himeself? Hypthetically speaking since Zoom could move from point a to point b in 0 seconds due to his power, could he not tear Thawne apart before Prof. Zoom's faculty's allowed him(self) to retaliate?

Shouldn't, due to the nature of his specific power, Hunter Zolomon be able to physically do to any speedster, including Eobard Thawne, what speedsters could do to people without Superspeed? I mean that's a very common argument in favor of the Flashes/Speedsters/Blitzers. That they can attack and kill the enemy before the enemy recognizes a defensive set.

@whitelantern_1: Zoom has never moved from point a to point b in 0 seconds. He was matched in speed by Wally with Jesse Quick's powers and surpassed by Bart with Barry and Wally's speed. The hypothetical nature of his power is something he never demonstrated.

Zoom punches hard, but Thawne can take a punch pretty well (He's survived an IMP after all and his punches that he traded with Flash destroyed far more than Thawne's sonic boom). If someone can show me Zolomon being infinitely fast I'd quickly concede, but I'm fairly sure I've read every Zolomon appearance (besides the Wonder Woman issues) so I think that's not the case.

I hereby concede Wally > PZ. Thanks to deduced.

@spiderbuck: can I ask why you think Wally > Thawne?

@nickthedevil - I previously had PZ > Wally but this is the scan along with the part of his argument that convinced me. Also I wasn't aware Wally was double teamed in his Rogue War defeat at the hands of PZ..

@dredeuced said:

Bloodlusted Wally is significantly faster than Thawne and hits hard enough to KO him -- could kill him if he feels like it with the vibrating hand thing, considering he can make things explode with the vibrating hand, too.

Zoom

@spiderbuck: looks like you were told some out of context things, bud.

Firstly, In Rogue War, Professor Zoom was doing all the fighting, and KO'ed Wally. Zoom himself was fighting West. Zoom didn't touch West until after Thawne put down Wally West THROUGH AND UNDER A BUILDING.

Secondly, that scan is from how long ago? Much before Rogue war, almost a hundred issues before Rogue War. We effectively see Thawne's own Speed force actually eat away the regular speed force and he outright states: he can cut off his connection to the speed force if he wanted to. And he succeeds in doing so to Barry, Quick, and Mercury. Meanwhile, it actually takes: Wally, Barry, Mercury, Liberty Belle, Kid Flash and Impulse and Jay Garrick to put down Thawne.

Fast forward a few issues later and Thawne comes back.

He 1. Outruns Barry and Bart very very easily,

Finds he can actually erase people and their entire existence with a touch 2. Stop time.

I'm flip flopping like a politician up in here. PZ > WW.

Awaiting retort:

@spiderbuck: In "The Return of Barry Allen" Professor Zoom was so new with his powers, he literally had just got them when he went back in time. Here's what happened,

Thawne wanted to see Barry.

Blew up with the Cosmic treadmill

Was sent back in time, got powers but suffered amnesia.

Thought he was Barry Allen.

Fought Wally.

Were even.

Wally stopped playing around and beat Thawne to a turd.

Thawne left.

End.

Fast forward to Chain Lightning

Thawne fights Wally West in the future. Still an inept Professor Zoom, seeing as how he doesn't recognize Wally West's costume. Thawne THEN outruns Wally West into the deeper future. Fight again. Wally goes straight for the IMP. End.

Fast forward To Rogue War.

Thawne comes back, Zoom stomps Garrick and Bart while Professor Zoom KO's West, drags him out of the wreckage by the arm. That's the end of that.

Fast forward to REBIRTH. It takes Barry, Jay, Wally, Bart, Impulse, Liberty Belle and Max Mercury to make Thawne rethink his plan. Nevermind that throughout the entire last 2/3 of the book Thawne is smacking all of them around like little children.

Then Flashpoint. Beats the crud out of Barry effortlessly. Barry can't even get a hit in.

Oh, did I also mention he cuts speed force connection away? And that he can negative-speed force dump? Stop time? And some degree of telepathy?

I don't see why we keep bringing up the older feats of an early Thawne without his newfound powerset into this. Did Rebirth and Flashpoint become non-canon or something? What am I missing?

Zoom wins this and West is blatantly more powerful than Thawne. Johns completely ignored Wally's powerset in an effort to highlight Professor Zoom and Barry Allen from Rebirth on.

@whitelantern#1: doesn't address the beating he got in Rogue War.

You're really good at misrepresenting what happened. Thawne and Wally both traded a single punch, which neither seemed particularly phased by. Then Wally got sent into a building by a handpush/airblast thing where he wasn't KO'd -- he was just fine and was literally contemplating who he was fighting and shouting at Hunter before the building fell. The building then falling on him was what KO'd him, which is classic PIS considering A: A building falling on him shouldn't KO him and B: He should be able to react to a building falling on him and get out of the way or phase and C: he's literally speed stolen things that were in midfall to stop them which he also forgot to do. Just in case you don't believe me:

He then spends the rest of the time getting whooped by Zolomon while completely conscious (And Zolomon hits much, much harder than Zoom) while Thawne operates the treadmill before Barry comes in.

It's quite amazing how Wally literally forgets how to use all of his powers in a single page but there you go. Thawne can't do crap about speed stealing but Johns made it an issue to literally never allow Wally to use it because he either forgets to or, the one time he doesn't, Zolomon was immune.

Zolomon Zoom.

@nickthedevil: The one Dredeuced accurately said you misinterpreted?

Not really. It's already been established that a fight against the Flashes can literally take two seconds. We have no relativity as to how fast that scene took place, mostly because the entire battle was only witnessed by the Flashes. The Rouges had already been KO'ed at this point.

You're lucky I can't post scans. Because anyone can be pretty adept at posting irrelevant scans too.

If you want to go that way, then Zoom shouldn't have been hit in the previous page by Garrick's helmet. Or kicked in the back of the shin by Bart Allen.

Everyone there was PISing. Even Thawne and Zoom, not just West.

So... Johns never uses West's speed steal? Lets see...

Issue #169: West steals speed from a guillotine.

Issue # 169: Gives speed to Cold and MM

Issue #170 steals speed from a hail of bullets.

171: Steals from more bullets

173: Takes from Cicada (I think. Either he gave or stole speed force)

176: Steals speed to stop the Weather Wizards' tornado

The flash: "Iron Heights" : steals speed from Girder

The Flash: "Iron Heights": Gives to Garrick's vaccine

177: Garrick steals from Superman

180: Outright says he would, but Vic beats him to the punch

180: Steals speed from Wood flying at Cyborg

200: tries against Zoom.

That's only covering his first 2/3 of his entire run for Flash.

That's not even getting into Rogue War, Identity Crisis and Ignition.

Yeah. Sure forgets to use it alot, huh?

I hope you have the entire fight for that Rogue War scene, btw. Post all the pictures up then.

@supermanwithatan01: you really can't speak. As far as I can tell, you're going off pure word of mouth. Haven't read the issues yourself or something? Then PM and ask me my opinion?

Now you're over here tagging me with nonsense?

@nickthedevil: no I asked your opinion m Professor Zoom. I've read them but sold my collection. I am trying to get back into comics. I don't know much about them but from what Dredeuced has shown consistently opposed your opinions I'm conflicted. I wouldn't call that nonsense, I already explained I'm trying to formulate my opinion on the matter. It was Wally > Thawne then you brought up feats that were exaggerated and I changed my option. Now that ik they were exaggerated I've decided in Wally > Thawne again. Not that big of a deal really, I wasn't making untrue statements or calling you out. I was tagging you to give you a chance to retort.

@nickthedevil:

Not really. It's already been established that a fight against the Flashes can literally take two seconds. We have no relativity as to how fast that scene took place, mostly because the entire battle was only witnessed by the Flashes. The Rouges had already been KO'ed at this point.

You're lucky I can't post scans. Because anyone can be pretty adept at posting irrelevant scans too.

How is posting the exact page you referenced irrelevant? Like I literally got the singular page where you said Thawne KO'd Wally and pointed out how a building falling on him KO'd him.

So... Johns never uses West's speed steal? Lets see...

I'm talking about during the Rogue War, dude. He literally got KO'd by a building falling on him instead of speed stealing it and literally didn't try to speed steal Thawne when he's done it to 5 different speedsters before.

I hope you have the entire fight for that Rogue War scene, btw. Post all the pictures up then.

Sure thing. Want me to start from where Professor Zoom comes in since it's a Zoom/Prof Zoom thread? I don't think showing Wally and Zoom handling the rogues and Bart as too relevant. If so:

Gallery

That's the entire Wally vs Prof Zoom fight. He gets a punch in, Wally avoids him to throw a hat at Zoom, they trade punches, Wally gets KO'd by a building falling on him. It was a stupid fight every which way with stuff like Zoom not being able to react to a hat throw and Jay Garrick somehow getting the better of Thawne for their brief skirmish before they run away with Wally. My main point was you said Professor Zoom KO'd wally with a punch and drug his unconscious body out of the fight when that's not even what happened, then said "irrelevant scans" which makes absolutely no sense when it's the exact freaking scan you referenced. I've got the entirety of Flash vol 2 at my disposal if you want to question me on anything else.

For this singular fight, everyone was being stupid and Wally specifically forgot all of his powers. He forgot how to phase, he forgot how to speed steal, he forgot how to IMP like he did in Waid's run (it's not like Thawne got magically more durable in the time between Chain Lightning and Rogue War). I guess zoom can be explained by him always holding back to a degree but the Jay Garrick tripping up Thawne midrun thing was also dumb considering how badly Thawne trounced Jay in the past.

Hmmmm, I dont know why you guys bring up time travel. Thawne wouldnt have enough time to think much less time travel. He would be a statue to zoom.

Zolomon wins

I would like to see this match happen.

Zolomon owns.

Still Zolomon.

Zoom roflstomps. And don't bring up his low showing of being tagged by Wonder Woman.

Wally at normal speed only saw Zoom as a blur. Wally with a speed amp from the other Flashes still barely caught up with a Zoom who was toying with him and not trying to kill him. Whereas Thawne has tried to kill Wally, Zolomon's purpose was not to kill Wally, but let him live to suffer and become a better hero.

Probably Zoom can't he time travel and the professor can't?

@uchiha454: it's the opposite.Thawne can time travel but Zolomon can't

@reaverlation: Really? well why is everyone giving it to Zoom can't professor just travel outside of time or something like that?

@uchiha454: for the fact Wally when serious is faster than Thawne(Wally has beaten him twice)but Zolomon while holding back is faster than even a bloodlusted Wally.So in power scale:

Barry=<Thawne<<<Wally<<<<<<<<<<Zolomon

@reaverlation: So basically Zoom would reach professor before he could even use time travel

@uchiha454: yes.Zolomon would stomp Thawne,Wally,and the entire Flash Family(and Zolomon already did stomp the Flash Family)at the same time.Only Wally amped(by amped I mean stealing speed)stands a chance against Zoom as Zoom is in his own league of speed

@reaverlation: ok make sense then

Zoom stomps

Zolo

Zoom

Zoom stomps

Hunter in a curbstomp

Hunter snaps his fingers repeatedly until Thawne is paste on the wall

xD I would pay so much to see that fight

Bump.

Does Professor Zoom have the durability to take the onslaught of Zolomon? Could he find the time to vibrate his molecules and become intangible then travel back in time to kill Hunter in the crib.... OR, does Hunter rip Eobards spine out after breaking his neck before Thawne knows the fight started?

Zolomon

Hunter.

Hunter Zolomon stomps

Hunter in a mismatch.

It's amazing this thread has been open as long as it has.

Zoom.

Hunter

Leaning toward Zolomon.

Zoom