Here's the deal. The following is a scan of Wonder Woman 214 written by Greg Rucka and also the source of the infamous "hits harder than Superman comment". It's be cited numerous times by many members of the Vine and by yourself. In this issue Wonder Woman says "Zoom isn't truly faster than me. But rather he's traveling through time. He's literally ahead of me."
Now if Zoom's debut was in Blitz then this was only his second story arc. Greg Rucka is trying to explain and specify his powers through captions. If he isn't actually faster than Wonder Woman I think it's safe to say he isn't actually faster than Eobard Thawne. And remember you can't pick and choose what you choose to be cannon from a single issue. If hitting harder than Superman is cannon then this is as well.
And you get that I was saying Zoom would win this battle right? Even though on paper Professor Zoom is faster, Zoom is ahead of him no matter what he does. I have no idea why you are arguing so vehemently over this. You were mostly right. It's just that in this one aspect you were wrong. Instead of admitting it and ceasing to be rude to myself and to other users you just kept on going. I don't get it.
Here's the deal. The following is a scan of Wonder Woman 214 written by Greg Rucka and also the source of the infamous "hits harder than Superman comment". It's be cited numerous times by many members of the Vine and by yourself. In this issue Wonder Woman says "Zoom isn't truly faster than me. But rather he's traveling through time. He's literally ahead of me."
Now if Zoom's debut was in Blitz then this was only his second story arc. Greg Rucka is trying to explain and specify his powers through captions. If he isn't actually faster than Wonder Woman I think it's safe to say he isn't actually faster than Eobard Thawne. And remember you can't pick and choose what you choose to be cannon from a single issue. If hitting harder than Superman is cannon then this is as well.
And you get that I was saying Zoom would win this battle right? Even though on paper Professor Zoom is faster, Zoom is ahead of him no matter what he does. I have no idea why you are arguing so vehemently over this. You were mostly right. It's just that in this one aspect you were wrong. Instead of admitting it and ceasing to be rude to myself and to other users you just kept on going. I don't get it.
Yeah, Wonder Woman stands there and says "He's not actually faster than me" as he runs circles around her and she can't lay a hand on him. Riiiiight.
I'm not picking and choosing cannon. Wonder Woman is just wrong.
...Do you both realize that you all are basically arguing semantics?
Yep
but I wouldn't call it arguing so much as me bringing canonical evidence, rudimentary science and math, and common sense to the table and Zoom ignoring it and saying the same thing over and over.
Yeah, Wonder Woman stands there and says "He's not actually faster than me" as he runs circles around her and she can't lay a hand on him. Riiiiight. I'm not picking and choosing cannon. Wonder Woman is just wrong.
You're focusing on the "not actually faster than me" part too much. It's important and it's true but it's not what you should be taking out of the quote. The part you should be focusing on is "He's literally ahead of me"
That provides distinction between speed and time manipulation and allows Zoom to run circles around Diana without letting her get a punch in (even so she does hit him several times but let's not go into that).
2. He has the power to put people in "Reverse", no one else has that kind of power.
3. Zoom was defeat by Inertia who is NO WAY faster than Professor Zoom but faster than Zoom.
Zoom was defeated by Inertia because he handed Inertia the means to defeat him. Also, this is like saying Zolomon wins because Thawne was killed by Batman.
Prior to that, everyone knows how Inertia fared against an angry Wally West.
2. He has the power to put people in "Reverse", no one else has that kind of power.
3. Zoom was defeat by Inertia who is NO WAY faster than Professor Zoom but faster than Zoom.
Zoom was defeated by Inertia because he handed Inertia the means to defeat him. Also, this is like saying Zolomon wins because Thawne was killed by Batman.
Prior to that, everyone knows how Inertia fared against an angry Wally West.
The only weakness Thawne has is his ego and that is why he got killed. Zoom was fully aware.
Also, that just shows more proof that Thawne is faster if you show that Wally West is fater than Inertia. Thawne would have never got Inertia to touch him, but Zoom got caught. Bart Allen has also defeated Zoom with the help of tranq darts. Thawne would have caught them.
The only weakness Thawne has is his ego and that is why he got killed. Zoom was fully aware.
That totally explain how he wins against a character many many times faster than him.
Also, that just shows more proof that Thawne is faster if you show that Wally West is fater than Inertia.
Well the proof is obvious, Thwane is Barry's villian and Barry has always been able to match him in speed. Zolomon is Wally's villian and not only is wally unable to match him in terms of speed, he cant even freakin see him. what makes you think Prof Zoom could?
Thawne would have never got Inertia to touch him, but Zoom got caught.
Zoom was the one who taught Intertia to begin with and hence he wasnt expecting him to attack.
Bart Allen has also defeated Zoom with the help of tranq darts. Thawne would have caught them.
When? Was Zoom actually fighting? Because Bart cant even see him tagging him with tranq dart would mean there is obviously something going on which you didnt tell us. So scans PLZ>
The only weakness Thawne has is his ego and that is why he got killed. Zoom was fully aware.
Zoom was hardly aware that Inertia would use the powers that he himself gave him against Zoom. He was only there because Libra sent him to find Inertia.
Also, that just shows more proof that Thawne is faster if you show that Wally West is fater than Inertia.
Thawne is is no way faster than Zoom. He's not even faster than Wally, who can't beat Zoom either.
Thawne would have never got Inertia to touch him, but Zoom got caught.
Inertia had Zoom's own time manipulation powers when he defeated Zoom, so with those powers, yes, he could whup Thawne too.
Bart Allen has also defeated Zoom with the help of tranq darts.
Zoom was only there to slow down Bart on Iris Allen's request. And please, everyone knows how a halfway rational fight between Bart and Zolomon would go.
Let's be rational, here. With his regular powers, Inertia can't even beat Bart, forget about Zoom.
Thawne would have caught them.
Really, if all you want to do is compare people they've fought, then Thawne was killed by (a) Batman and Zolomon already beat up Batman. Thawne has lost to both Barry and Wally, Zolomon has beat Wally, Bart and Jay. Does that seem like a fair assessment?
@CitizenBane: Zolomon already beat up Batman? If I remember right, there was only one Reverse-Flash during the Flashpoint. Also, I remember during the Rogue War, Zoom getting defeated by Wally. Has Zoom ever killed a speedster? No. Has Professor Zoom ever kill a speedster? Yes.
@CitizenBane: Zolomon already beat up Batman? If I remember right, there was only one Reverse-Flash during the Flashpoint. Also, I remember during the Rogue War, Zoom getting defeated by Wally. Has Zoom ever killed a speedster? No. Has Professor Zoom ever kill a speedster? Yes.
Wally needed full speed force from Jessie Quick to even see him during Rogue War, and he did not beat Zoom, Zoom himself sent his gf to wally's gf's hospital because he knew he was trying to change the past so that Wally lost son would be born again.
Has Prof. ever speedblitz 3 speedsters? Has he ever beaten 4 speedsters in matter of 3 pannel? Zoom did it during Blitz.
... Yea, lets just ignore the plethora of new abilities he's gotten before dying... No biggie.
Prof Zoom has better powers, he can age and deage people , travel time and so on and so forth, the real problem is Zoom is still leagues faster than him. Its like me saying Prof Zoom vs Franklin Richards, well Richards has so many powers he should win, but we know it wont go that way because Zoom is leagues faster and would kill him before he did jack. I still dont understand how Prof Zoom would beat Zolomon. Stop time? zolomon could blitz him before that.
@CitizenBane: Zolomon already beat up Batman? If I remember right, there was only one Reverse-Flash during the Flashpoint. Also, I remember during the Rogue War, Zoom getting defeated by Wally. Has Zoom ever killed a speedster? No. Has Professor Zoom ever kill a speedster? Yes.
Wally needed full speed force from Jessie Quick to even see him during Rogue War, and he did not beat Zoom, Zoom himself sent his gf to wally's gf's hospital because he knew he was trying to change the past so that Wally lost son would be born again.
Has Prof. ever speedblitz 3 speedsters? Has he ever beaten 4 speedsters in matter of 3 pannel? Zoom did it during Blitz.
All Professor Zoom would have to do is go into the Speedforce. Zoom might seem faster to you, but he wouldn't be able to get Thawne while he is in there and he'd jump out and kill Zoom because he wouldn't even know where he would be.
All Professor Zoom would have to do is go into the Speedforce.
That is if Zolomon doesnt beat him to death first.
Zoom might seem faster to you, but he wouldn't be able to get Thawne while he is in there and he'd jump out and kill Zoom because he wouldn't even know where he would be.
Not only to me Zolomon seem faster to everyone, because he is.
Only if Zolomon doesnt kill Prof Zoom before he can think of anything, and you are talking as if he can reach speedforce without doing anything.
It takes time and fighting a character many many times faster than you, whom you cant even see at top speed, time is something Prof. Zoom doesnt have
@CitizenBane: Zolomon already beat up Batman? If I remember right, there was only one Reverse-Flash during the Flashpoint. Also, I remember during the Rogue War, Zoom getting defeated by Wally. Has Zoom ever killed a speedster? No. Has Professor Zoom ever kill a speedster? Yes.
Yes, in the Sinestro Corps Special.
Zoom does not kill speedsters because he wants to improve them, killing them would be a bit counterproductive, yeah?
@CitizenBane: Zolomon already beat up Batman? If I remember right, there was only one Reverse-Flash during the Flashpoint. Also, I remember during the Rogue War, Zoom getting defeated by Wally. Has Zoom ever killed a speedster? No. Has Professor Zoom ever kill a speedster? Yes.
Yes, in the Sinestro Corps Special.
Zoom does not kill speedsters because he wants to improve them, killing them would be a bit counterproductive, yeah?
but if i may be so bold to butt in, Professor Zoom was kicking around Wally in return of Barry Allen. (sure he was holding back for most of that fight, but even when he wasn't, he still had to trick Professor Zoom to be able to beat him). he outran Barry and Bart in road to Flashpoint, rather easily. he also has reaction time faster than lightning. he stopped time the moment exactly before Barry was struck by lightning.
@CitizenBane: how fast is lightning? do you know? jsut asking so i could gauge the speed and compare. is it anywhere near Zoom's speed? i remember when Wally finally caught up to Zoom's speed via speed transferance, he had to let the light meet his eyes, instead of taking light in.
zoom can get from point a to point b in zero seconds. that's faster than anything anyone could hope to reach. the best someone could do is match him, but never surpass him.
bart can't even see zoom and he's the fastest, so zoloman zoomstomps the professor
@cooldes: to prove a point. Reading through the posts a year ago, people are misconstruing scans rather than actually reading the comics. If I Bump this, hopefully it gets locked for spite.
@citizenbane: basically Hunter breaks his neck if its morals off, but morals on Thawne wins when Hunter gloats because of his powerset? Something like that?
@citizenbane: basically Hunter breaks his neck if its morals off, but morals on Thawne wins when Hunter gloats because of his powerset? Something like that?
Yeah. I don't see Thawne having any kind of advantage in terms of raw speed or combat reflexes, but his versatility could win the fight for him due to Hunter's CIS.
Zoom II wins this. Eobard Thawne is not in the same league as Hunter Zolomon. I respect Thawne...but he is not Zoom II. In my opinion, Zoom II is the absolute fastest character in all of comics. He's got everyone beat. When you literally control the flow of time around you, and your powers are always turned on? Yeah, Zoom II is the fastest character there is. Period.
@spiderbuck: Wally's 1 shotted Thawne before... The only time they seemed even was in the return of Barry Allen. Wally's feats > Thawnes reaction speed, overall speed. Plus Thawne no Matter how hard he tried couldn't defeat Barry. Wally is significantly faster/more powerful than Barry. Thus How could Thawne defeat West? When not burdened by CIS
@spiderbuck: Wally's 1 shotted Thawne before... The only time they seemed even was in the return of Barry Allen. Wally's feats > Thawnes reaction speed, overall speed. Plus Thawne no Matter how hard he tried couldn't defeat Barry. Wally is significantly faster/more powerful than Barry. Thus How could Thawne defeat West? When not burdened by CIS
Before I concede Wally > PZ, scans would properly seal the deal.
Also, @nickthedevil seems to have an opinion on the matter and seems more well versed than I on the subject so let's go ahead and ask him his opinion while we're waiting for scans if you have em.
@spiderbuck: Wally's 1 shotted Thawne before... The only time they seemed even was in the return of Barry Allen. Wally's feats > Thawnes reaction speed, overall speed. Plus Thawne no Matter how hard he tried couldn't defeat Barry. Wally is significantly faster/more powerful than Barry. Thus How could Thawne defeat West? When not burdened by CIS
Before I concede Wally > PZ, scans would properly seal the deal.
Also, @nickthedevil seems to have an opinion on the matter and seems more well versed than I on the subject so let's go ahead and ask him his opinion while we're waiting for scans if you have em.
Alright. @dredeuced has all the scans of the Flashes and gives me most of my scans/info on the Flashes. Anyway Wally has the speedsteal which works particularly well on speedsters. Thawne is really impressive. But he's still not done anything overly impressive. He's tried killing Barry and can't do it. Though he has shown to be at least as fast as Barry, he's no where near Wally levels. Wallys beaten instantaneous teleportation, has faster than attosecond reaction time, can do practically everything Thawne could do anyway. Thawne beat up on a weakened West in the beginning of "the Return of Barry Allen" but as shown on page 2, Wally finally snaps out of it and moves so fast Thawne didn't even realized he moved. Then tricked him onto the Cosmic treadmill and Won. Wallys villain was Zoom, who moved so fast he was a blur to even Wally. Jay couldn't even see him; and that was when Hunter wasn't even trying to hurt anyone. Wallys just plain more powerful than Thawne and Barry. Even after Flashpoint there's no reason to assume that Eobard surpasses Wally because he can "leech" from nobodies and battled a weakened Barry Allen (who himself couldnt defeat a pissed off Wally) and then was killed by like a 70 year old Batman... I'll see if I can get @dredeuced to post some scans and give his person opinion as well. He's much more well versed than I am.
During the Return of Barry Allen, Wally became Thawne's equal/superior by getting over his mental blocks. Following that event, Wally got a multitude of powerups from the Speed Formula, to the Kobra incident where he merged with the Speed Force and came back, which resulted in Wally being able to one shot Thawne when he was willing to go all out(when he knew he couldn't kill him because of Thawne's destiny in the future):
Bloodlusted Wally is significantly faster than Thawne and hits hard enough to KO him -- could kill him if he feels like it with the vibrating hand thing, considering he can make things explode with the vibrating hand, too.
This was before Wally had merged with Walter and learned his speed stealing powers, which should work just fine on Thawne as it has defeated a multitude of speedsters before and has literally only failed against Zoom because Zoom doesn't actually use speed. Speed Steal to slow him down and an IMP or Vibrating Hand to the face takes Thawne out fairly easily.
Professor Zoom did not beat the crap out of Wally in The Rogue War. He teamed up with Zoom and double teamed him. Then they dumped him on the Cosmic Treadmill and Professor Zoom operated while Wally got his ass whooped by Zoom. It's hard to say that a 2v1 against Zoom, who could already solo him, and Thawne was a good showing for Thawne when Wally's beaten Thawne a few times 1v1. Hell, he also literally forget his speed stealing powers during the Rogue War. Skimming over a little PIS to get the story to go the right way. That said Johns had a tendency to forget the things Wally did during Waid's run. I think he used Blitz's mind wipe conclusions to kind of explain Wally not using his powers sometime, but he still clearly had the ability.
@dredeuced: What's your opinion on the battle at hand; Zolomon or Thawne in a morals off, random encounter?
If time travel is allowed I'd imagine Thawne would win. I'm sure he could survive Zolomon's initial onslaught and Zolomon can't do crap to stop Thawne from erasing him from the timestream by killing him before he got his powers.
If time travel is disallowed and they actually have to fight, then it comes down to whether PZ's aging powers can work on Zolomon, but Zolomon might just be able to beat him into submission anyhow.
Log in to comment