Professor X vs. Martian Manhunter

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Outside_85

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#51  Edited By Outside_85

@Roddy010: Because Jean doesn't want to go nuts and blow up the planet. (images not working)

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Roddy010

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#52  Edited By Roddy010

@Outside_85: Follow the links.

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LordOfAllHumans

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#53  Edited By LordOfAllHumans

@Outside_85 said:

@Roddy010: Because Jean doesn't want to go nuts and blow up the planet. (images not working)

I think the point that Roddy is trying to make is, that Xavier initiated the battle with Phoenix meaning he was powerful enough to break through her defenses, same way he did it to Galactus, the end result was in their favor, but MM is not on the level of Phoenix or Galactus, so Xavier should not have a tough time busting through his defenses and engaging him.

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Outside_85

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#54  Edited By Outside_85

@LordOfAllHumans: Sry but I don't buy it, getting though the defences of the Phoenix would mean he could actually harm it. Jean gave him enough power to battle it and survive long enough for her to regain control. As far as I can see it's a case of him being able to distract it, but he had no hope of being anything more than an irritation. Steamroller vs mouse.

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Needlebay

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#55  Edited By Needlebay

Martian Manhunter got into the mind of Spectre and shut him down, along with getting past Mageddon's mental defenses, who is a galactic level telepath. Martian Manhunter has high end feats as well.

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dondave

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#56  Edited By dondave

@LordOfAllHumans:

Martian Manhunter got into the mind of Spectre and shut him down, along with getting past Mageddon's mental defenses, who is a galactic level telepath. Martian Manhunter has high end feats as well.

^^^^^^^^ What He Said

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LordOfAllHumans

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#57  Edited By LordOfAllHumans

@Outside_85 said:

@LordOfAllHumans: Sry but I don't buy it, getting though the defences of the Phoenix would mean he could actually harm it. Jean gave him enough power to battle it and survive long enough for her to regain control. As far as I can see it's a case of him being able to distract it, but he had no hope of being anything more than an irritation. Steamroller vs mouse.

Xavier psi blasted Phoenix when Jean was in control talking to Scott, this took her out allowing Phoenix to take over again. It doesn't mean he can harm it, he did the same thing to Galactus and didn't harm him at all. Jean helped him during the battle, and don't know why you keep mentioning it, everyone is aware of that and that is the only reason he won, but he got in there and started the fight himself and proved that his mind was strong enough to wage war on all those planes without losing his mind, the last person that she gave a glimpse of her mind to went catatonic, Mastermind. It's all to illustrate that MM is not on the level of Phoenix or Galactus, so his mental defense will not be nearly as strong. Phoenix wanted to fight, like she did to Emma she likes to test the limits of her foe and then when they have gone as far as they can go, she shows them how powerful she really is except Jean didn't let her do that by fighting the Phoenix, Galactus doesn't play games like that so he just kinda swatted Xavier back into his body. Xavier should have no problem engaging MM, if he can even get the attention of these two. Xavier can gather the thoughts and psi energy of billions and use it as a weapon pretty much instantly from his showing with Galactus, and from what he did to the Z'noxx, now MM can read the minds of billions, but can he take a psi blast composed of that much raw psi energy from the minds of billions?

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LordOfAllHumans

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#58  Edited By LordOfAllHumans

@dondave said:

@LordOfAllHumans:

Martian Manhunter got into the mind of Spectre and shut him down, along with getting past Mageddon's mental defenses, who is a galactic level telepath. Martian Manhunter has high end feats as well.

^^^^^^^^ What He Said

...and Phoenix and Galactus should be considered in Xaviers case, that plus he is powerful enough to fully wield the mind gem and can enter the collective consciousness of the entire universe (which takes great skill and power). Xavier himself has galactic level telepathic feats. What Spectre was it? Then there is fact that Xavier can almost instantly collect psi energy from billions of minds on planetary and over intergalactic scales and use them as weapons. I really don't see anything that MM can do that Xavier can't. Now my question as posed before can MM take a psi blast that is the cumulative psi force of billions of mind?

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Needlebay

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#59  Edited By Needlebay

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@dondave said:

@LordOfAllHumans:

Martian Manhunter got into the mind of Spectre and shut him down, along with getting past Mageddon's mental defenses, who is a galactic level telepath. Martian Manhunter has high end feats as well.

^^^^^^^^ What He Said

...and Phoenix and Galactus should be considered in Xaviers case, that plus he is powerful enough to fully wield the mind gem and can enter the collective consciousness of the entire universe (which takes great skill and power). Xavier himself has galactic level telepathic feats. What Spectre was it? Then there is fact that Xavier can almost instantly collect psi energy from billions of minds on planetary and over intergalactic scales and use them as weapons. I really don't see anything that MM can do that Xavier can't. Now my question as posed before can MM take a psi blast that is the cumulative psi force of billions of mind?

MM had a similar feat in Brightest Day, I think, by summoning all the minds on the planet and using it against D'Kay D'Razz all while on Mars. So, yes, I think he can.

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LordOfAllHumans

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#60  Edited By LordOfAllHumans

@Needlebay said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@dondave said:

@LordOfAllHumans:

Martian Manhunter got into the mind of Spectre and shut him down, along with getting past Mageddon's mental defenses, who is a galactic level telepath. Martian Manhunter has high end feats as well.

^^^^^^^^ What He Said

...and Phoenix and Galactus should be considered in Xaviers case, that plus he is powerful enough to fully wield the mind gem and can enter the collective consciousness of the entire universe (which takes great skill and power). Xavier himself has galactic level telepathic feats. What Spectre was it? Then there is fact that Xavier can almost instantly collect psi energy from billions of minds on planetary and over intergalactic scales and use them as weapons. I really don't see anything that MM can do that Xavier can't. Now my question as posed before can MM take a psi blast that is the cumulative psi force of billions of mind?

MM had a similar feat in Brightest Day, I think, by summoning all the minds on the planet and using it against D'Kay D'Razz all while on Mars. So, yes, I think he can.

I didn't ask could he duplicate the feat, I asked could he take the attack?

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Outside_85

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#61  Edited By Outside_85

@LordOfAllHumans: I keep mentioning it because you make it sound like Charles fought a long and exhausting battle on his own before Jean suddenly popped up and saved the day, whereas I read it as she was there since the beginning. Meaning this feat is about as valid as saying: Superman beat Mandrakk...while forgetting to mention the Thought Robot he had to use to be able to do that.

Also this is getting increasingly silly, the Pro-Xavier is painting him as the God Almighty when it comes to psionics, but still cant explain why he needs a machine to find people.

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Needlebay

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#62  Edited By Needlebay

If D'Kay D'Razz could (Without even trying, BTW), then MM can as well.

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dondave

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#63  Edited By dondave

@LordOfAllHumans: During Terror Incognita Nine Whote Martian who had amped their telepathy by stealing it from the minds of telepaths on earth couldn't get past MMH's defences and that was when he had been captured

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#64  Edited By LordOfAllHumans

@dondave said:

@LordOfAllHumans: During Terror Incognita Nine Whote Martian who had amped their telepathy by stealing it from the minds of telepaths on earth couldn't get past MMH's defences and that was when he had been captured

so they used the powers of billions of minds including all telepathic and non-telepathic minds? They were amping their own powers, not using the collective psionic energy of billions as a weapons. Doesn't seem the same to me.

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Roddy010

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#65  Edited By Roddy010
@Outside_85: I keep mentioning it because you make it sound like Charles fought a long and exhausting battle on his own before Jean suddenly popped up and saved the day, whereas I read it as she was there since the beginning. Meaning this feat is about as valid as saying: Superman beat Mandrakk...while forgetting to mention the Thought Robot he had to use to be able to do that.

No one is making anything up. Charles battled her under his own power. There was no indication that Phoenix gave him any type of power up what so ever. Jean only held back the Phoenix power. Saying that she gave Xavier power to fight herself is completely absurd. You're dancing around the fact that he intiated the battle and holding on to the dialogue that you are completely taking out of context yet again.

Also this is getting increasingly silly, the Pro-Xavier is painting him as the God Almighty when it comes to psionics, but still cant explain why he needs a machine to find people.

Lol no one said he was the God of psionics (that's Phoenix) and yet you still ignore fact that Xavier has done global and galactic feats without the aid of Cerebro. Really is that all you have to stand on?

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LordOfAllHumans

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#66  Edited By LordOfAllHumans

@Outside_85 said:

@LordOfAllHumans: I keep mentioning it because you make it sound like Charles fought a long and exhausting battle on his own before Jean suddenly popped up and saved the day, whereas I read it as she was there since the beginning. Meaning this feat is about as valid as saying: Superman beat Mandrakk...while forgetting to mention the Thought Robot he had to use to be able to do that.

Also this is getting increasingly silly, the Pro-Xavier is painting him as the God Almighty when it comes to psionics, but still cant explain why he needs a machine to find people.

I'm not making it sound like anything but what it was, where does it say she was there from the beginning? It is shown in the issue that when she was in control her attacked her taking out the Jean Grey persona allowing Phoenix to regain control. The feat is him initiating the attack and surviving his mind being spread across infinite planes without going insane, it was clearly the point when Roddy was saying to you. You keep focusing on Jean helping him so that he could erect the psyhic circut breakers, when there is more to the battle, you also keep ignoring that MM is nowhere near her level, so he wouldn't need help fighting him, and an attack from MM does no span all realities.

Where is he being painted as God, when the MM camp is the one claiming near multiversal telepathic might on his side? The use of cerebro was explained to you several times in this thread and has been explained several times in other threads, you choosing to ignore it does not mean it was not explained, and is the reason why feats without it, that are planetary and inter-galactic have been given.

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Charlie_Jade

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#67  Edited By Charlie_Jade

don't lowball anyone

@Roddy010 said:

@Outside_85: Follow the links@AtPhantom said:

@Static Shock said:
"
" You mean this?

"
He was fighting several different superhumans there, not just Martian Manhunter. "
MM was unprepared for the grief Adam showed him. Their second fight, MM showed Adam his own grief instead, and paralyzed him in turn.

.

People have low showings in comics all the time

his performance vs BlackAdam was PIS

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#68  Edited By Roddy010

@Charlie_Jade: I don't get what you're trying to say here bud....

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#69  Edited By Needlebay

@dondave said:

@LordOfAllHumans: During Terror Incognita Nine Whote Martian who had amped their telepathy by stealing it from the minds of telepaths on earth couldn't get past MMH's defences and that was when he had been captured

Forgot about that feat. There was also a feat of him telepathcally putting down a god who could have ended the universe.

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Storm Calling

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#70  Edited By Storm Calling

Xavier has been far more impressive compared to what I've seen represented here for MH. Great scans and info provided here by several posters.

Cerebro is a big misconception with Xavier. I'm glad several of you were able to point out the need for it.

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Roddy010

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#71  Edited By Roddy010

@Charlie_Jade: Nevermind just reread your post and I agree every character has low showings.

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#72  Edited By Sethlol

MMH.

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Outside_85

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#73  Edited By Outside_85

@Roddy010 said:

No one is making anything up. Charles battled her under his own power. There was no indication that Phoenix gave him any type of power up what so ever. Jean only held back the Phoenix power. Saying that she gave Xavier power to fight herself is completely absurd. You're dancing around the fact that he intiated the battle and holding on to the dialogue that you are completely taking out of context yet again..

Lol no one said he was the God of psionics (that's Phoenix) and yet you still ignore fact that Xavier has done global and galactic feats without the aid of Cerebro. Really is that all you have to stand on?

You are putting him on the level of a god when you say he could battle the Phoenix on several levels of reality unaided.

And no, it's not absurd to say she was there from the start, because if he is not it's equal (as you've repeatedly claimed) then he 1 man holding back a river with the remains of the dam that is Jean Grey.

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@Outside_85 said:

@LordOfAllHumans: I keep mentioning it because you make it sound like Charles fought a long and exhausting battle on his own before Jean suddenly popped up and saved the day, whereas I read it as she was there since the beginning. Meaning this feat is about as valid as saying: Superman beat Mandrakk...while forgetting to mention the Thought Robot he had to use to be able to do that.

Also this is getting increasingly silly, the Pro-Xavier is painting him as the God Almighty when it comes to psionics, but still cant explain why he needs a machine to find people.

I'm not making it sound like anything but what it was, where does it say she was there from the beginning? It is shown in the issue that when she was in control her attacked her taking out the Jean Grey persona allowing Phoenix to regain control. The feat is him initiating the attack and surviving his mind being spread across infinite planes without going insane, it was clearly the point when Roddy was saying to you. You keep focusing on Jean helping him so that he could erect the psyhic circut breakers, when there is more to the battle, you also keep ignoring that MM is nowhere near her level, so he wouldn't need help fighting him, and an attack from MM does no span all realities.

Where is he being painted as God, when the MM camp is the one claiming near multiversal telepathic might on his side? The use of cerebro was explained to you several times in this thread and has been explained several times in other threads, you choosing to ignore it does not mean it was not explained, and is the reason why feats without it, that are planetary and inter-galactic have been given.

You lean far too heavily on something that's not a feat at all. A malnourished child can engage Doomsday in a fight as well, but unless Superman happens to be right behind him, he is going to loose badly.

As far as I am concerned Jean was there from the start and you haven't provided a shred of evidence that it was not the case.

And no, you havent explained cerebro or why Charles even needs it if he is as horrendously powerful as you claim he is. All you do it post a bunch of scans that mean nothing.

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#74  Edited By Roddy010

@Outside_85 said:

@Roddy010 said:

No one is making anything up. Charles battled her under his own power. There was no indication that Phoenix gave him any type of power up what so ever. Jean only held back the Phoenix power. Saying that she gave Xavier power to fight herself is completely absurd. You're dancing around the fact that he intiated the battle and holding on to the dialogue that you are completely taking out of context yet again..

Lol no one said he was the God of psionics (that's Phoenix) and yet you still ignore fact that Xavier has done global and galactic feats without the aid of Cerebro. Really is that all you have to stand on?

You are putting him on the level of a god when you say he could battle the Phoenix on several levels of reality unaided.

And no, it's not absurd to say she was there from the start, because if he is not it's equal (as you've repeatedly claimed) then he 1 man holding back a river with the remains of the dam that is Jean Grey.

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@Outside_85 said:

@LordOfAllHumans: I keep mentioning it because you make it sound like Charles fought a long and exhausting battle on his own before Jean suddenly popped up and saved the day, whereas I read it as she was there since the beginning. Meaning this feat is about as valid as saying: Superman beat Mandrakk...while forgetting to mention the Thought Robot he had to use to be able to do that.

Also this is getting increasingly silly, the Pro-Xavier is painting him as the God Almighty when it comes to psionics, but still cant explain why he needs a machine to find people.

I'm not making it sound like anything but what it was, where does it say she was there from the beginning? It is shown in the issue that when she was in control her attacked her taking out the Jean Grey persona allowing Phoenix to regain control. The feat is him initiating the attack and surviving his mind being spread across infinite planes without going insane, it was clearly the point when Roddy was saying to you. You keep focusing on Jean helping him so that he could erect the psyhic circut breakers, when there is more to the battle, you also keep ignoring that MM is nowhere near her level, so he wouldn't need help fighting him, and an attack from MM does no span all realities.

Where is he being painted as God, when the MM camp is the one claiming near multiversal telepathic might on his side? The use of cerebro was explained to you several times in this thread and has been explained several times in other threads, you choosing to ignore it does not mean it was not explained, and is the reason why feats without it, that are planetary and inter-galactic have been given.

You lean far too heavily on something that's not a feat at all. A malnourished child can engage Doomsday in a fight as well, but unless Superman happens to be right behind him, he is going to loose badly.

As far as I am concerned Jean was there from the start and you haven't provided a shred of evidence that it was not the case.

And no, you havent explained cerebro or why Charles even needs it if he is as horrendously powerful as you claim he is. All you do it post a bunch of scans that mean nothing.

I'm sorry but i'm not about to do this same song and dance with you. It's time to play a different song. Charles Xavier's mind was strong enough to engaged Phoenix on infinite planes of existence simultaneously that canon. The last time Phoenix shared put a sample of her mind she sent Mastermind into a comatose state. If Charles's mind is strong enough to not only engage the Phoenix but also endure his mind being stretched that far it is a credible feat, whether you like it or not it is canon.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

And yes it is absurd to think Jean gave Xavier power when she was only holding back the Phoenix. You're nitpicking and throwing everything oput of context but you can't deny the fact that Xavier used his own power to engage Phoenix.

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jobbernos

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#75  Edited By jobbernos

mm easily.

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Outside_85

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#76  Edited By Outside_85

@Roddy010: It's not canon, it what you think it is.

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#77  Edited By _Black

J'onn has better feats in my opinion.

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LordOfAllHumans

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#78  Edited By LordOfAllHumans

@Outside_85 said:

@Roddy010 said:

No one is making anything up. Charles battled her under his own power. There was no indication that Phoenix gave him any type of power up what so ever. Jean only held back the Phoenix power. Saying that she gave Xavier power to fight herself is completely absurd. You're dancing around the fact that he intiated the battle and holding on to the dialogue that you are completely taking out of context yet again..

Lol no one said he was the God of psionics (that's Phoenix) and yet you still ignore fact that Xavier has done global and galactic feats without the aid of Cerebro. Really is that all you have to stand on?

You are putting him on the level of a god when you say he could battle the Phoenix on several levels of reality unaided.

And no, it's not absurd to say she was there from the start, because if he is not it's equal (as you've repeatedly claimed) then he 1 man holding back a river with the remains of the dam that is Jean Grey.

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@Outside_85 said:

@LordOfAllHumans: I keep mentioning it because you make it sound like Charles fought a long and exhausting battle on his own before Jean suddenly popped up and saved the day, whereas I read it as she was there since the beginning. Meaning this feat is about as valid as saying: Superman beat Mandrakk...while forgetting to mention the Thought Robot he had to use to be able to do that.

Also this is getting increasingly silly, the Pro-Xavier is painting him as the God Almighty when it comes to psionics, but still cant explain why he needs a machine to find people.

I'm not making it sound like anything but what it was, where does it say she was there from the beginning? It is shown in the issue that when she was in control her attacked her taking out the Jean Grey persona allowing Phoenix to regain control. The feat is him initiating the attack and surviving his mind being spread across infinite planes without going insane, it was clearly the point when Roddy was saying to you. You keep focusing on Jean helping him so that he could erect the psyhic circut breakers, when there is more to the battle, you also keep ignoring that MM is nowhere near her level, so he wouldn't need help fighting him, and an attack from MM does no span all realities.

Where is he being painted as God, when the MM camp is the one claiming near multiversal telepathic might on his side? The use of cerebro was explained to you several times in this thread and has been explained several times in other threads, you choosing to ignore it does not mean it was not explained, and is the reason why feats without it, that are planetary and inter-galactic have been given.

You lean far too heavily on something that's not a feat at all. A malnourished child can engage Doomsday in a fight as well, but unless Superman happens to be right behind him, he is going to loose badly.

As far as I am concerned Jean was there from the start and you haven't provided a shred of evidence that it was not the case.

And no, you havent explained cerebro or why Charles even needs it if he is as horrendously powerful as you claim he is. All you do it post a bunch of scans that mean nothing.

How is it not a feat? The fact is he was able to penetrate her mind, he was able to penetrate the mind of Galactus, the end result is irrelevant because MM is not on either of their level. He should be more than capable enough to hold his own against the Martian.

As far as you are concerned does not mean Jean was helping him the whole time, it's just what you think...big difference

Roddy explained, Cerebro is used to help him better pinpoint mutants, it does not increase his powers. Cerebra was the machine that increased psi power not cerebro.

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Outside_85

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#79  Edited By Outside_85

@LordOfAllHumans: And you have still failed to provide evidence of it being any different.

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#80  Edited By LordOfAllHumans

@Outside_85 said:

@LordOfAllHumans: And you have still failed to provide evidence of it being any different.

It's only stated that he won because Jean helped him win, it does not say I was only able to enter her mind or survive my mind being dragged across infinite planes with Jeans help, that and the Galactus feat provide evidence that he can engage the minds of cosmic entities, and thus should have no problem engaging a Martian in battle.

If your talking about Cerebro, I have provided the different designs in two different machines used by him and other telepaths, and you have been given feats of him performing global and intergalactic feat without it.

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#81  Edited By dondave

@LordOfAllHumans: MMh has been able to enter the mind of The Spectre, who is far above Galactus and more powerful than pheonix jean grey

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#82  Edited By LordOfAllHumans

@dondave said:

@LordOfAllHumans: MMh has been able to enter the mind of The Spectre, who is far above Galactus and more powerful than pheonix jean grey

That is not the point, the point is both have shown the ability to enter the mind of cosmic beings, so MM having feats of doing such does not automatically rank him above Xavier. And I'll ask again at what level was Spectre when this was done? His level power is relevant when stating that "mortals" can beat him, otherwise it seems like the same PIS that allowed Deathstroke to take out powerful members of the JLA.

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#83  Edited By darkelf35

mmstomp

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LordOfAllHumans

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#84  Edited By LordOfAllHumans

@darkelf35 said:

mmstomp

Although he has the potential to win this is hardly a stomp.

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#86  Edited By comic_book_fan

@CitizenBane: he is the most powerful on marvel earth.

and he does not need a machine to take over the minds of everyone on earth it just makes it easier he has done this and more in stressful situations.

and xaiver has more detailed powers.

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Xavier

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axelbra108

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@dex_starr: This is true MMH has been able to shut down people's brains and even tap into the thoughts of the entire world at one time. He even beat Doctor Destiny in telepathy that is CRAZY. If he can do this I think he would destroy the professor.

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mike01

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@saren: there's other telepaths more powerful in recent but he has long considered most powerful actual human. He once controlled all minds in a country. X wins.

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reaverlation

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#90  Edited By reaverlation

J'onn

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XiiX

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Martian Manhunter.

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Saren

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@mike01 said:

@saren: there's other telepaths more powerful in recent but he has long considered most powerful actual human. He once controlled all minds in a country. X wins.

This is supposed to be more impressive than Martian Manhunter harnessing the thoughts of the entire planet or scanning the emotions of the entire galaxy?

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dondave

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#93  Edited By dondave

J'onn

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Wolverine008

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#94  Edited By Wolverine008
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comic_book_fan

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lets continue here.

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Abnegazar

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The New 52 Martian Manhunter wins easily.

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Fodder76

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May I just say that I believe this is the most epic battle ever created.

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Alak

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MMH. Even compared to the rest of his race, J'onn appears to be uniquely gifted in telepathy. The Fernus arc alone shows us what would happen if he had no moral restrictions on using his abilities, such as taking control of two JL members who are highly resistant to TP as well as one who was supposedly immune to TP. Add in the fact that he's performed well against cosmic forces, I just don't see how Professor Xavier even compares. Moondragon would have been a more fair opponent.

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deactivated-5a162dd41dd64

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@hus said:

Xavier is considered to be the world's most powerful telepath in the Marvel universe

No he's not

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reaverlation

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Always makes me wonder why people(including myself) call it telepathy. That's J'onn's native way of communication on Mars just that telepathy is the closest word on Earth that describes how he talks basically