Prime Raizen vs Vasto Lorde Ichigo

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DarthAznable

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Cosmic_Lantern

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@jeepeh: I am a fond reader of bleach and have seen nearly all of the anime bar a couple fillers, but nobodies on that level that for a fact I know.

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XAtsukiX

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#53  Edited By XAtsukiX

@princearagorn1: From the fight of yusuke vs sensui in the anime it wasn't from more than a direct melee distance he actualy nails yusuke in the face and sends him flying and destroys that platform or whatever you want to call it they were standing on, not counting that huge explosion a few minutes before that from them just trading blows with their fist (thought it wasn't mountain busting still a big explosion just from them punching alone).

And btw aren't we supposed to take manga feats over anime ones? Cause i remember reading that somewhere and plus i was trying to find the battle but someone was proving it was a shockwave from in the manga that destroyed that platform. I'll keep looking in a bit after i take a shower. XD

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jeepeh

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#54  Edited By jeepeh

@cosmic_lantern said:

@jeepeh: I am a fond reader of bleach and have seen nearly all of the anime bar a couple fillers, but nobodies on that level that for a fact I know.

*COUGH* MANGA *COUGH*

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Cosmic_Lantern

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@jeepeh: Currently on chapter 602, what of it silly goose.

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jeepeh

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Ratava

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#57  Edited By Ratava
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Cosmic_Lantern

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#58  Edited By Cosmic_Lantern

@jeepeh: Even though I disagree with some of those I will admit I have nothing to argue against it so I will take your word for it based on that.

Good day

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BlackWind

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@princearagorn1: We might be talking about different things.

Because the shockwave punch I'm talking about did not take out the whole plateau. It was just a big part of it. And yes, Yusuke's SG did indeed nuke a whole mountain.

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NeonGameWave

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Ichigo is outclassed in every possible way except for maybe regeneration. A standard Raizen would probably still stomp Ichigo due to having superior speed, strength, intelligence and etc. When he took over Yusuke he enabled him to wreck Sensui in a couple of moves and Ichigo in this form and at this stage wouldn`t compare to either Yusuke or Sensui.

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jeepeh

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Ichigo is outclassed in every possible way except for maybe regeneration. A standard Raizen would probably still stomp Ichigo due to having superior speed, strength, intelligence and etc. When he took over Yusuke he enabled him to wreck Sensui in a couple of moves and Ichigo in this form and at this stage wouldn`t compare to either Yusuke or Sensui.

Can you show me his feats, most other people seem to be of the opposite opinion. He'd need Country++ level of anything to even try to win.

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jeepeh

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@ratava: I have yet to be shown anything that Raizen can do, So far I'm just defending my statements, they have yet to do so that I've seen

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Ratava

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@jeepeh said:

@ratava: I have yet to be shown anything that Raizen can do, So far I'm just defending my statements, they have yet to do so that I've seen

could be difficult as he has only a 10-page appearance when he was possesing Yusuke.

so brace yourself for a lot of abc-logic and powerscaling

Loading Video...

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XAtsukiX

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@ratava: That's less reasonable that thinking that bleach characters are country busters? At least with raizen we have a idea of what his powers would be able to do seeing as he was on par power level wise with yomi and makuro in his weakened state. And also if i remember correctly he was pretty much toying with sensui even when he was in yusukes body probably not even able to use his full weakened state power. (last part i said i really don't know as i don't know if he could go full power in possessing yusuke).

Anyways as Raizen doesn't have any actual feats for himself besides that grabbing yusuke by the head part before he dies and the whole possessing yusuke part. I think a much better mach to be discussed would be yusuke vs ichigo as then there could be a clear winner or hell even most any S class will do from EOS. But as this is going to keep going no where on who wins i shall umm i don't know maybe eat some cookies, yeah that sounds good cookies.

And still does anyone know how much more durable the makai is compared to the human world?

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jeepeh

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#65  Edited By jeepeh

@xatsukix: Look at my respect thread I posted above, it shows you why he's a country buster. Although I already posted that part in this thread, idk why you don't just accept it. The Bleach downplay on this site is astounding.

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ghostrider2

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Vasto Lorde ftw.

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XAtsukiX

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@jeepeh: I understand that you did calculations and all that and i have looked at it and also you are talking to someone whos favorite character of all time is from bleach which is ulquiorra but i still don't see them being country busters, i mean does it even say anywhere in the manga that they could destroy a country?

I mean I'm not one to be going against speculations if i could do calculations myself i would but i can't, ( next part is my own preference which i do not use in discussions as its not accepted without feats) with that said i believe what koenma said is true about S ranks, as well as what sensui said about himself (he had no reason to lie what would he seek to gain from lying about his power.) and i also believe that the makai is far more durable compared to the human world (which i believe it is stated as such somewhere just can't remember and don't want to look it up cause I'm not feeling all that great) so to me YYH EOS are country or even by far higher. But with that said there is no proof of them being that way so it can't be counted along with bleach being country busters, so just because you have "calculated" it to be so doesn't mean it is so without the author backing it up himself. I don't have to accept anything fan calculated.

But for the sake of argument lets take what people said in bleach to be true about the 3 days walk and rada rada rada, Then if we do that we are going to have to take the word of koenma and sensui making S ranks of the YYHverse planet busters so there for raizen would still win against ichigo easily. But as i said this is going to go no where so I'm not going to argue for either side as neither can be proven with actual facts from the author himself or characters doing so.

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jeepeh

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#68  Edited By jeepeh

@xatsukix:

1. Are you forgetting how Anime works? This isn't like Comics when there's a narrator. We go off what Kubo, the writer, has shown us. And what he's shown us show's 'em as a Country Buster.

2. So you want Kubo to come out and say "Dangai Ichigo is a planet buster, Ulquiorra is a country buster, Kenpachi is a continent buster". When was the last time a writer actually did something like that? Have they ever?

3. What word? Also, are we to consider Hell Verse feats? = Destroying hell

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I ask because Kubo did write a Prequel chapter for it,

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XAtsukiX

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#69  Edited By XAtsukiX

@jeepeh: 1. Since when have they showed bleach characters destroying a country? Like I'll just use this as a reference even though i hate the anime/manga but in naruto they clearly show the biju bombs or whatever to be mountain busters, i would need something like that for me to confirm that they are indeed country busters without calculations. By the way you don't have to come at me like that i was just simply stating I'm not going to take a fan calculation about something that is like that. To me they are probably large city busters . (is mountain bigger than large city? If so then ill go with that, either one.)

2. I don't know there has probably been one or two but none that i know of but what I'm saying is just cause you say they are "country busting" or what not doesn't make it so. But also there has been writers that are more clear as to how much damage they can actually do. I mean hell i could argue till I'm blue in the face about the makai being more durable than the human world because sensui going full power wasn't even close to shaking the ground, along with yomi and all the other S classes who are by far way stronger than sensui weren't even doing damage to the makai simply by powering up. I could be like "Well they did so and so damage here and the makai is x much stronger than human world so they could destroy xx mountains in the human world." But unless that feat is actually in the manga/anime and it is confirmed people won't necessarily take it as fact.

3. Uh the word you seem to go by for the country busting feats which is what Nel said about the 3 days walk and that's all i have seen you go off of is what characters say, i mean not ALL cause there's the explosions and what not which you can't really tell how big they are (from what i have seen) then make calculations based on that. You can't just take one anime/mangas word then all the sudden turn around and be like " PFFFT they aren't planet busters cause characters said they could be."(<< exaggeration) And i don't know I've never seen the movie but aren't they still in hell after that huge explosion? O.o doesn't seem to me like he destroyed hell looks more like just a big kaboom, a pretty big one at that. But i guess but that would be up to the person who made the forum? To me it makes no difference as it seems neither of us will budge on our beliefs lolz. I say they end up getting ice cream instead. XD (btw first debate i have actually had with someone on here and so far has been pretty good)

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jeepeh

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#70  Edited By jeepeh

@xatsukix:

1. Sorry if I came off kinda harsh, but they have been shown, you just need to understand how large Las Noches and Seireitei are to understand it, most people overlook their size. :P And I believe Mountain Buster is considered > City buster, because mountains are solid. *shrug*

2. I'll take it as fact, if it's something obviously shown then it is fact. The writer's can't be waited on to give us everything on a silver platter. Kinda like in the Thousand Year Blood War arc, we knew the enemies were quincies, yet Mayuri still made the statement "They're quincies". And most people already figured it out that Masaki was a quincy, but he had Isshin spell it out for us. Everyone got annoyed when he did that because we already knew these things.

3. I didn't say they weren't planet busters, I just want you to explain more how they are :P Um, well if you watch that video I just posted, he's shooting a Cero all around and the explosion goes from the bottom layer of hell all the way up, they spent the entire movie getting down that far. It's more of a "razing" of hell, blowing hell completely up would be bad, then the bad souls have nowhere to go. And Renji stopped him before he finished. It also destroys the chains holding Kokuto in hell and busts open the gates of hell. Something even Yamamoto didn't think could happen, and Yamamoto has the power of the sun o_O Plus the whole thing with his coat, how he's only 1/3rd power.

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Also, with the Nel statement thing, Nel lived in Las Noches for years, she was the 3rd Espada, she hangs around the place all of her life. I'd expect her to know where the door is, lol. Same with Yoruichi's statement for Seireitei.

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XAtsukiX

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#71  Edited By XAtsukiX

@jeepeh: 1. It's fine i didn't take offense i know debating can sometimes come off as harsh when it's not supposed to so no worries. I'm guilty of it as well. Well no i completely understand that they could be that big It's just that i don't fully believe it one part of me is like "Ulquiorra...a country buster? FREAKING AWESOME!" then the other part of me is like " I just don't know about this, i don't think they really are.".

2. Well i understand that it's just there are things i believe to myself as fact that others don't accept i mean especially on here and for the most part don't like sitting there debating pointlessly when there are alot of other people on here that will be like "Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope" cause it isn't total fact. Even though it is partially stated and shown to be true. Like the whole makai thing.

3. Oh my bad haha. But the thing is i can't really prove it as i don't know how durable the makai actually is, I mean if they stated somewhere how much it was and what not could get a rough estimate on how much damage they could actually do but for some reason people like thinking that regular human world in YYH is = to the makai which isn't the case at all. Ahh i see yeah it didn't really look like busting hell cause there is one part where his cero is flying across and you can clearly see buildings under it that weren't harmed, but as i said it was a quite bit explosion.

Yes i know that but see this is the thing I've seen people take her word as truth yet someone like koenma which is the son of the person who rules over spirit world who is very knowledgeable on all things demons and their classes states that they the S classes could destroy the earth (i can find the video if you want) people are like nope not true. And to add to that genkai also states that yusuke could destroy the planet and sensuis intellect is pretty high and i don't see why he would lie about this part there is no reason for him to lie here ill just link the video. Watch at about 1 minute into the video.

Loading Video...

(edit) or actually just watch the whole thing. XD

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jeepeh

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#72  Edited By jeepeh

@xatsukix:

1. So you're saying that you want to believe it but you're worried other people won't believe it. :P Everyone else can be convinced at a later date. :P

2. Who cares whether or not other people believe it? lol

3. Who's to say how big hell is though? They never mention that they get reincarnated, in fact it specifically says that they never do. So the amount of people there must be crazy. I'd imagine it's larger than earth.

It's clearly author intent, people who don't believe it simply use it as an excuse. All we have is a statement that Bills can destroy the Solar System, right? Yet everyone believes that. Fictional debates are full of double standards galore.

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XAtsukiX

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@jeepeh: 1. Well not necessarily worried just iffy on the fact that they could or couldn't be. I could argue for either side depending on what the person wants if they want actual feats I'm more likely to argue about them being more like city busters or mountain depending on the debate. But if the person is more open minded i can argue about what characters said and so on as long as the character is a trustworthy source and knows what they are talking about.

2. XD I don't i just don't like debating in circles when no one is going to accept the others position. If I'm going to debate I'm going to try and go for just straight up feats unless the person has a open mind and i feel as if i can bring in certain things without them going all haywire.

3.Well I'm sure Hell would have to be bigger than earth it could be possibly endless? But again who knows unless someone stated how big it is. Then again hueco mundo is seemingly endless it says so there is the possibility that hell is the same way.

Yeah i have noticed that they will take words of one character but when it comes to another they are like " HA country buster? never shown no such thing GTFO." I try to be as unbiased as possible with things and i try not to contradict myself and if i do i probably said something wrong. But as i said above if its from a trustworthy character that knows what they are talking about why not accept it?

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jeepeh

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@xatsukix:

1. Imo they're the same. Verbal feats vs On Panel feats. But still feats.

2. But remember, *puts on an old wise man cap* a lot of people read these threads that aren't debating, maybe we can educate them, I read threads on this site for years before making an account. The more we teach. The more the next generation learns. *takes cap off*

3. 'Tis true, Although if it was endless then Kokuto couldn't have said "The one who destroyed hell", it would've been more like "The person who destroyed a few thousand miles of hell" or something.

Exactly, it's not like Don Kanoji showed up like '' WITH MY PERFECT MAGICAL EYESIGHT I CAN CALCULATE THAT THIS STRUCTURE IS EXACTLY 300 MILES WIDE!" Someone who lived and worked there for hundreds of years said it, I'm not sure what the circumstances of your example, but I'm sure it's the same.

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XAtsukiX

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#75  Edited By XAtsukiX

@jeepeh1. I guess its all up to the person really. To me the verbal feats have to be backed by a trustworthy character or i won't accept it like for instance usually when the "jokester" of a manga or anything for that matter states something that has to do with them doing a massive amount of damage its usually like a 50% chance they are just wrong and just overestimating whatever it is they are talking about.

2. Yeah I have been stalking these threads for like a year or so before i made this account a bit ago. Some of the stuff i see on here about characters i actually know about is absurd.

3. True but then again that can be taken as like uhh....I can't really think of the term at this moment but something like the Winchesters defeating Lucifer i mean yes they did "defeat" him in a sense but it wasn't a actual defeat that you would think of. But you could be right.

Yeah that's pretty much what i was trying to get across. But back to the battle for a second there is multiple characters that say S ranks even at the lowest level can destroy human world and it is also stated that the gap between a mid S class demon and a upper S class is way bigger than the gap between a lower S class and a E class. (E class pretty much being a normal human with some psychic abilities if im not mistaken). So with all that said Weakened Raizen was equal to a upper S class demon (though he doesn't have any feats to back it up besides his power level which it shows in the anime compared to the 2 other kings) and on par with yomi and makuro. Now for a Prime Raizen who knows how much stronger he is than his weakened state we can only speculate as to how much stronger he would be. But they are easily planet destroyers if not straight up busters if we take in to account the trustworthy words of genkai, koenma and sensui.

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jasonhitto

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Base raizen stomp

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Ratava

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ichigo lolstomps

due to having feats

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Thejdg

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Raizen, I mean he put a beating on Shinsui with taking over Yusuke. I'd imagine it's be worse if It was actually him. It was an azz kicking that rivals some of animes biggest lol. All on a guy that was dominating everyone up until then.