Primal Monitor vs Presence

@baron_von_santa: That's ONE writer....you know all writers like fans have different views of the characters (unless they created them their views are no more or less relevant than ours)

misunderstood. i didnt say u underrated him. and Presence created DCU so u cant say he is only omnipotent inside DCU. does that mean he wasn't Omnipotent b4 he created DCU? to me he is always God in or out of his creation, b4 or after creating DCU.

@vaeternus: .....go complain to the writers if you do not like it. actually, you can just send them an email, or tell them that at comic con, which i can not go this time.

that is called different versions, and no writer have disagreed with the canvas concept.

do you know that some writers have made the presence not omnipotent? though that is neither here nor there. the presence in pre 52 is omnipotent, period. and the only thing above him is the writer, and the canvas.

grant says one thing and while in comics written by other writer presence/yahweh is God. grant isn't the only writer.

No, sir I am not. I call it how it is.

I'm not confusing anything, the OP never specified and as mods always say when that happens it's assumed current versions are used. That's just what I'm doing. Posting on various names doesn't help your case either.

I'm not embarrassing myself, you're clearly in a state of denial and are going on about "Grant Morrison" as if his view means something concrete and you yourself lacking proof...you have provided no more or less proof then I have. You find me a scan of Primal Monitor beating, killing someone on Presence's level of all people then I'll agree...til then you've proved nothing.

I really don't care what G. Morrison thinks not for nothing, nor should anyone else. Did he create either one of these characters? Does he have some rights over them? If not, irrelevant. If that's your argument it's a desperate one.....you're hiding behind a famous writer's opinion when I asked for PM's feats concerning him beating a being on par with Presence of all characters, that does not equal fact. One writer no less....

his one and only proof is what grant morrison stated like as if he is the one and only writer.

@skyroid: he is omnipotent inside DC, but immensely powerful outside. lucifer created him own multiverse remember? he is powerful, but was shown as insignificant in the primal monitor. he was shaped by external forces (writers).

i wonder why you two hate the primal monitor so much as to disagree with the writers.

Exactly my point. Apparently according to baron, he thinks Grant's opinions=facts. Yet seems to ignore the fact that various writers have written characters very differently, especially in this case where Presence is the creator of all and omnipotent so I really can't see how PM beats him. The only remote people Pre N52 who have would be GEB, currently nobody is higher much less can match Presence of DCU so I totally agree with you.

@skyroid: @vaeternus: okay, the presence created the DCU, which lucifer went out. grant morrison is only one example. the guy who wrote the lucifer series greed with it.

i gave many. you ignored the others. lucifer clearly went outside DCU. he needed a letter from the presence.

just ask bronze surfer, and almost anyone.

i dont hate characters. i like all character strong or weak if the story is good. so u admitted that he is omnipotent. now explain to me how does God become less of a God outside his creation? lucifer isn't omnipotent and don't say i am hating of lucifer, lucifer series was 10/10.

omnipotent being does not become less omnipotent, u cant weaken omnipotent. its like saying billion minus infinity is less than infinity. omnipotent is omnipotent u dont get any weaker.

@skyroid: he was clearly shown to be. feel like i am talking to two kids.

this is not a debate, this is me trying to get you two to think outside the box, and accept reality. if you still do not accept it, then just stop replying. because i give up. you can ask someone else.

primal monitor was shown to be omnipotent? any proof? creating billion mandrakk wont make someone omnipotent. omnipotent does not have limit.

i am not trying to be mean if i believed a character is weaker than another even if the weaker character is my favorite i would admit he is weaker .

that post made me think that u have no proof and u deep down know presence is superior. i guess we're done. i dont expect u do admit that.

thats a dirty trick trying to make urself look like u/ur side/point of view isn't wrong by saying ur out of the conversation. that way opponent doesn't get the full satisfaction but i am satisfied

@skyroid: was the presence ever actually shown to be omnipotent? same thing. the presence made DCU, the primal monitor is the thing outside.

that post made me think that u have no proof and u deep down know presence is superior. i guess we're done. i dont expect u do admit that.

lol, try not to see too deep into a simple comment. this is good advice, because you obviously will interpret wrong. if you really want to do this, there are several instances that show the presence to be not omnipotent. he needed Lucifer to know experience, he got his power usurped, he could not destroy the GEB.... though ignore all that, and say he is omnipotent. you have no proof, and have given any even up til now.

i am not saying the primal monitor is omnipotent, but it s above the presence, who is either not omnipotent, or omnipotent in DCU, and powerful outside. hard to understand, but you should try.

@skyroid: Agreed. I'm starting to think some users on here have selective reading.

@ Baron_Von_Santa, So now you're depending upon other users ibecause you can't prove something? lol First it was writers, now other random users...SMH. Given as how I don't see every other major DCU writer agreeing with that or saying "Presence is not the most powerful DCU character" kind of proves what you say isn't true.

I will just kindly repeat what skyroid asks, where is there solid proof of PM being omnipotent and defeating someone on Presence's level...like EVER?

There, when this is supplied perhaps I'll change my view til then this is mere speculation and the Lucifer point is really irrelevant. Nobody has provided proof of HOW Presence loses here...all you guys are doing is lowballing Presence which is a bad argument.

If we're children, I guess you're the brick wall then because it's clear no matter how many times we ask we get nothing in return.

And currently in DCU, Lucifer is nothing like he was and Presence again confirmed he created everything. Must I post scans of him saying this? Really don't want to dig out my PS issues....

@skyroid: a trick? why do you always have to think like that? did you have some bad experience as a kid or something that left you like this?

really, ask someone else.

Presence is theee God.

@vaeternus: overall, you have never given proof. yet i have given many.

@bronze_surfer@beatboks1 i give up, if you two want to debate with two fanboys.

@baron_von_santa: You pulling the fanboy card? That's too funny.... I have though, Presence is Omnipotent and creator of the DCU. PM has little to no chance here....simply put but whatever. I'm not going to flame you or try to convince you otherwise if you choose to ignore the facts about WHAT the Presence is.

You haven't given proof. All you've done is rant about Grant Morrison's opinions(which isn't proof btw)

Presence is omnipotent. PM is NOT omnipotent=instant proof Presence wins. Definition of Omnipotent:

@mikep12@retconcrisis@dorukesin@spm1m If you guys want to chime in, if not understand lol but I know you guys read DC a lot as well.

Yup.

how many time will u change wat u say? one time u said u never said presence WASNT omnipotent, now u say PM isn't omnipotent and for whatever reason u think God is only omnipotent while inside his creation. what was he b4 he made DCU? dude God is God. and read lucifer series and many other dc comics it has been stated presence/yahweh IS God omnipotent. so i don't see how he can be below a non omnipotent and non omniscient being. plz this idiot like me doesn't understand this idiot kid needs to understand how omnipotent is beaten by non omnipotent and for whatever reason God is less than God outside of his creation

Presence is theee God.Phantom stranger is Judas. Also, it's been shown that hades answers to lucifer. So there's gods like Greek gods and such and then there is theee God. That's why the spectre is his lap dog and all angels answer to him.

@skyroid: @vaeternus: look, you say i have never given proof, yet i told you two writers have accepted this concept, and grant morrison said we, which means him and other writers.

your trying to say the writers are wrong, and i have never even seen the most dedicated of fanboys do that.

i have given proof, you have given statements made by yourself, and ignored everything.

IT WAS SHOWN HE WAS LESS, I TOLF YOU MANY TIMES. SHOWN IN THE LUCIFER SERIES. now, please, stop tagging me.

i will let you guys have the last word, (because for some reason, you guys always think that counts as a win).

marvel at the stubbornness of fanboys

Username
lol
_cain_
rijehu
sithlantern93
dark_vengeance_
cosmicallyaware1
iragexcudder
oceanmaster21
bronze_surfer
ntb101
loseup
jwwprod
dorukesin
iron99horn
chainy
equilbrium
beware_my_power
cold_day
reficul
war_spartos
mikep12
khonsu
hulksoti
jack_
schneider8282

Presence is theee God.Phantom stranger is Judas. Also, it's been shown that hades answers to lucifer. So there's gods like Greek gods and such and then there is theee God. That's why the spectre is his lap dog and all angels answer to him.

would u be kind enough to instead of edit to just make a new post, thxs.

"do you know that some writers have made the presence not omnipotent?" writer CAN do that but plz tell a name or 2 of comic stating/showing Presence/God/yahweh as not omnipotent.

"though that is neither here nor there" OKKKAAAYYY whatever that means plz elaborate

" the presence in pre 52 is omnipotent, period. " how many times do u change ur mind? and now do u think new 52 Presence isn't God? btw God=Omnipotent+omniscient+omnipresent

"only thing above him is the writer, and the canvas" i feel like crying right now. how is a canvas superior than God?

@demonknights: y do u keep saying thee?

right now i really wish i am getting banned...

@baron_von_santa: Grant morrison does NOT represent ALL writers....proof of this? More speculation...we haven't ignored anything, you're ignoring what we say concerning who and what presence is...I still see no proof showing PM beating someone on Presence's scale....

Is Grant Morrison the official representative of the DCU Writers council? lol Cause if he is, this is new news to me...

@bronze_surfer: theee one.

plz plz plz tell me wat are ur proofs one more time cause i seen nothing. also plz post new post instead of editing its hard to keep track of ur edits

list the proofs u have that presence is below primal monitor.

@skyroid: well we know the prescence is not omnipotent for him being equal in power to the GEB (Cant be omni if you have an equal) as well as being affected by Flashpoint effect.

The real power of Primal Moniter is well nothing much. We don't really know if he can do anything at all aside from create some things. We know his probes are strong and thats bout it. His main status comes from being the paper that DC makes their stories.

This is what Baron is trying to say. Say I make a brand new sereis in DC called Swag Master. I would be the TOAA for the moment having meta fictional powers over the story I write. The paper that I write my story on is the Primal Moniter. Now lets say in this story I have the Prescence involved in a cameo or something. Now can the charecter that I am writing on this page, beat the page? It's more of an imposibility. As powerful as the Prescence is he is still a charecter and can only affect things that the writer lets him and can only create on DC space (Primal Monitor)

primal monitor is a character. flag of america is still a flag even though it represent america it itself isn't america

What happens if the page is a bit pissed off at the story that's drawn on it? So I thought of the page as God. The idea being that the Overvoid – as we called it in Final Crisis - of the white page as a space is sort of God. And it's condensing stories out of itself because it finds inside its own gigantic white space, self-absorbed pristine consciousness, it finds this little stain or mark, this DC Multiverse somebody has 'drawn'. And it starts investigating, and it's just shocked with what it sees, with all the crazy activity and signifying going on in there. It then tries to protect itself from the seething contact with 'story' and imagines a race of beings, 'angels' or 'monitors' (another word for angel, of course) to function as an interface between its own giant eternal magnificence and this tiny, weird crawling anthill of life and significance that is the DC Multiverse.

— Grant Morrison, Interviewed on IGN.

he is a character.

@skyroid: If you have an equal you are not omni. The Spectre is also an aspect of god and no one questions his power to the original. But GEB is Equal to the prescence. A beter example would be is that his power was usurped by the Predator ask @rolldestroyer for scans

to quote grant morison

"What happens if the page is a bit pissed off at the story that's drawn on it? So I thought of the page as God. The idea being that the Overvoid – as we called it in Final Crisis - of the white page as a space is sort of God. And it's condensing stories out of itself because it finds inside its own gigantic white space, self-absorbed pristine consciousness, it finds this little stain or mark, this DC Multiverse somebody has 'drawn'. And it starts investigating, and it's just shocked with what it sees, with all the crazy activity and signifying going on in there. It then tries to protect itself from the seething contact with 'story' and imagines a race of beings, 'angels' or 'monitors' (another word for angel, of course) to function as an interface between its own giant eternal magnificence and this tiny, weird crawling anthill of life and significance that is the DC Multiverse."

So no he is more than just the void he is the page that all of the stories are made upon.

I am confused by your anology. Yes primal moniter is a charecter in the sense that it is self aware. but it is the space and page of where stories and all other charecters are made upon. The prescence cant destroy the page that it is drawn upon.

The prescence is comic book omnipotent. The Primal Monitor is Meta Fictional at least, thats what its creator inteded it to be.

If were going by feats though prescence stomps

@baron_von_santa said:

marvel at the stubbornness of fanboys

Username
lol
_cain_
rijehu
sithlantern93
dark_vengeance_
cosmicallyaware1
iragexcudder
oceanmaster21
bronze_surfer
ntb101
loseup
jwwprod
dorukesin
iron99horn
chainy
equilbrium
beware_my_power
cold_day
reficul
war_spartos
mikep12
khonsu
hulksoti
jack_
schneider8282

what mean this post? and in before the lock

@bronze_surfer: i did not know you would actually try, I would advise against it @lol: not you guys!

All good buddy @skyroid I agree.

Perhaps edit the OP, make two rounds. One vs. Pre N52 Presence, one vs. current 52 Presence.

One thing I find it interesting about cv is how some people will boost Primal Monitor on here but lowball Superman Prime 1 Million...lol I mean I know Supes has haters but damn lol. Recent other topics I see so many Prime hate comments lol anyway.

If anything the AM has done more then the PM have done. I kind of see the PM as Pre retc Beyonder, this guy from another "universe" within the same comic book universe/multiverse that's all powerful but isn't. Example, with Beyonder he was "this all powerful being" yet got dooped by Dr. Doom stealing his powers...obviously he's not all omni then if a mortal stole his powers lol with less powers to his.

There are also want to point out other DC characters over time reality warpers, uber godly beings etc who have done more damage or effected the Universe then PM. Classic Ion? Unbound Spectre? Anti Monitor? Mxy? GEB, Presence etc, etc. If he was going up against one of them and actually did something, I'd perhaps feel differently but he's going up against top of DCU at the end of the day so PM loses here.

@baron_von_santa: ok but really what mean that list?

@lol: just a random list

plz u barely made any point, except insult and make fun of everyone and showed anger.

I am saying the character primal monitor is below God. everything is inside of it therefore all things that happen is a story inside him.

primal monitor is a being so massive that the entire multiverse is inside it.

this monitor guy mentioned here created the monitors and mandrax to contain the flaw.

thought robot defeated mandrax with the cost of himself. there nothing to prove here to prove that monitor is omni or God except Morrison saying he thought of PM as God.

This Monitor is below Presence.

@skyroid: look at the lines, mxy was still in the actual comic, he never went outside it.

and it never created mandrake, it created (imagined) the monitors and a probe which turned into the original monitor and the anti monitor.

here TOAA inside the comic.

@vaeternus: why? all those thing happened inside DCU. inside it. it never has to fight anyone. that is the thing you do not understand. how will anyone ever fight someone like that?

@skyroid: you compare a writer to a being inside a comic?

waa i went off topic. my point is Primal Monitor the character is below Presence the God. and God has many aspects Dark, wrath, revenge, word, hand, source they're all part of him. if ur omni u can do everything even create a another omnipotent or otherwise are u really God if u have something u Can't do? Presence/God/yahweh has been said to be omni/God by so many comics. u already claimed primal monitor isn't omni and claimed that God is only omni inside DCU which makes no sense why God is only God inside his Creation, why God isn't God b4 he makes his creation.

Primal monitor the overvoid is not omni. so he is below God

nvm forget that thats off topic.

p.s. to me TOAA is a character inside the comic that represents the author. to me he is God so he can thing of marvel as comic and do with as he likes just as presence can. presence can turn dc to a book and rewrite it any way he wants.

@skyroid: no. that is the difference. the presence can not make retcons. the presence is all powerful, but still has limits that has nothing to do with him being omnipotent.

this is going to sound hard to understand, but if you think about it, it adds up.

the presence = PM = TOAA in pure power, this we all agree.

TOAA > PM for one so a writer, and can retcon PM into ever existing.

TOAA > the presence for he can also retcon the presence, making it non canon, and making another being the omnipotent creator of DC.

PM > the presence for one is the page, the other is a character on a page that no matter how powerful, can never destroy the page. the page can not hurt the presence, but because the writer allowed it to be so powerful, it can. it was shown in the lucifer series, when god gave lucifer the letter, it was a door outside creation.