Primal Monitor vs Pre-Retcon Beyonder

Who wins

Beyonder

PR Beyonder ftw

Batman

Beyonder wins.

We really don't know that much about the Over-Monitor.

We don't really know too much about Primal Monitor's abilities, other than that the DC universe was like a germ to him. With that, I think that it could go either way, because I feel like they are exact counterparts to each other. I'll just say Primal Monitor IMO, mainly because I love DC.

Not enough info or showings to decide who wins.

Beyonder via feats

@amalgamuniverse: That seem a little bias isn't it.

@homicidalmaniac: Well, I did say that the reason I chose Primal Monitor is because I love DC. But, it would probably be a stalemate.

No.

Flash.

Clearly Captain Cold wins here.

THIS

this. naw actually thor wins via god blast

Technically speaking they are both the same as they are both what exist beyond their respective Multiverses.

So, I'd go for a stalemate.

They jerk each other off to a stalemate.

if your one of those people who thinks TOAA > the presence, then the primal monitor stomps. but if your like most of the mods and some of the others, then stalemate.

most people do not know much about the primal monitor, so I will explain here.

it is technically paper gained sentience. the canvas on which all writers create their creations. or, as LM (comic character) explained, it is basically the cosmic ground floor. like all omnipotents, there are two ways of perceiving this being.

Exactly. Btw as your posts showed, Beyonder at even pre retcon levels did nothing that could not be done by Lucifer Morningstar. The over wank with Pre Retcon Beyonder is existent in this site and I don't know why...

@SithLantern93: yeah. I bet it will pass with time though. hope my parents will get tired of china and go back, I can not post any pictures here so I can not finish my CAV

A battle with a character/entity that's never been seen or shown with absolutely any feats whatsoever, other than a few lines mentioned bout him in a panel or two? This should be interesting, as to who make up the most creative primal monitor!

so, someone with the best feats in Marvel history vs a featless person, emmm difficult to guess :p

@all_mighty_beyonder: Best feats in Marvel history? That's a bit of a stretch.

I saw him do nothing that Anti-Monitor, Lucifer Morningstar, Mxy, Abraxas, LT, and more couldn't do.

Now obviously Beyonder wins due to feats, but PR Beyonder is honestly blown out of proportion. The dude wasn't even omnipotent, as opposed to the seemingly omnipotent Primal Monitor.

Jmarshmallow

@Jmarshmallow: even though i can not post any scans, I still can describe some of the feats of the primal monitors. though that person whom you are talking to, is a troll who loves beyonder too much. I think it was him that once avoided doing a CAV with me about beyonder versus the PM 20 times.

@van_cere: Sure, give me some feats.

Jmarshmallow

@Jmarshmallow: right here. and I remembered, it was a guy called beyonder, not him. but this guy might be another account of his when he got banned. I will not accuse with no evidence though.

the presence, TOAA...all made their creations on it.

half a probe of it is as powerful as the wrath of god with amps

just by going there, the experience erased the being (mandrakk, unless you choose to believe he has story warping powers) with the power of 52 universes.

lucifer and the presence went outside the DCU, and was shown as nothing. there, it is timeless. nothingness. just blank, white, canvas.

lucifers experience there: to disincline your eyes and mind to that new perspective to see time where no time is, takes an effort of will almost beyond imagining.

'and this is the heartbeat of eternity. creations rise and fall'

'the proportion of it that can be filled amounts, in the end, to zero'

'since past and present has no real meaning here, to argue about whether this creation came before or after Yahwehs is futile.' (the survivor of said creation is the silk man, not himself) this shows still, even first or second creations have no meaning

the interview:

What happens if the page is a bit pissed off at the story that's drawn on it? So I thought of the page as God. The idea being that the Overvoid – as we called it in Final Crisis - of the white page as a space is sort of God. And it's condensing stories out of itself because it finds inside its own gigantic white space, self-absorbed pristine consciousness, it finds this little stain or mark, this DC Multiverse somebody has 'drawn'. And it starts investigating, and it's just shocked with what it sees, with all the crazy activity and signifying going on in there. It then tries to protect itself from the seething contact with 'story' and imagines a race of beings, 'angels' or 'monitors' (another word for angel, of course) to function as an interface between its own giant eternal magnificence and this tiny, weird crawling anthill of life and significance that is the DC Multiverse.

— Grant Morrison, Interviewed on IGN.

He has done things that none of these characters are capable of. Showing outright power over LT and all the abstracts combined is what all the people you've listed can't do.

@van_cere: And that "god" that Morrison is describing is the Primal Monitor?

Jmarshmallow

@Hulkman123: he is not talking without rhyme reason, I will PM you (and JMarshmallow) when i finish my CAV @Jmarshmallow: yep. overmonitor is just another name for the primal monitor.

i didn't mean that he's the best of all, just one of the best.

bring me one character who killed Death and made the multiverse eternally alive, not even nigh-omnipotent Owen could kill a flower in it.

Beyonder was stated millions of times more powerful than the combined power of all Marvel including any and every being in it.

Beyonder can create and destroy multiverse just by thiniking.

those are heavy feats, i'm not saying he has some of the best feats from nothing.

FLAGGED for being a disrespectful person, naming people, and a lier. you just proved me you're not worth a debate with.

and i wasn't avoiding CAV, CAV requires a lot of time and energy, and i don't have time for that, i have real life full of responsibilities, you should go get yourself a real life too.

and you only asked once not 20 times liar.

@All_Mighty_Beyonder: someone who killed death? well, Michael demiurgos created the concept of death. that is much better than just destroying death. oh no, wait, beyonder only destroyed death by putting almost almost all his power (except for a fraction) of his power into a cup and made death drink it.

beyonder was STATED. THANK YOU.

beyonder can not destroy a multiverse by thinking. as shown, he was spent just by killing death. and can you actually try prove your lies with evidence? because Michael demiurgos made a multiverse and everything in it, he was renewing creation, writing gods name on everything to prevent creation from fading away. his 'death' can erase creation.

and I wonder why your being so rude when I said, in my second post, that I will not accuse with no evidence. wait, you just gave me evidence by confirming.

and stop wasting our time with excuses. I am on vacation in china this year, next year I am going to Ireland. and you tell me to get a life. how foolish you just made yourself.

@Jmarshmallow: see how petty and pathetic his excuses are? and how empty and full of lies his stated feats are? I already dealt with him once and he got himself banned when too many people flagged him. I am not going to go into that again and I advise you stop replying to him too.

@van_cere: i'm not gonna waste my time more with you, you seem very biased toward your lovely DC characters, to the point that you get easily abrasive and mad when your wanked characters looks like gonna lose a fight. ....sight....grow up, this is just a play time, we are here to enjoy some debate about some comics we read in freetime.

and not gonna keep discussing this, so i'm gonna say it once :

it's not most of his power(another lie of yours like always), just an important part, because it's an act of creation, creation of an ETERNAL MULTIVERSE, this is much better than any feat of destruction.

STATED yes stated, you wanna throw everything stated away, that makes your Primal Monitor worth nothing, because all Primal Monitor has is STATED arguments.

STATED by characters : Beyonder can destroy/create multiverse by thinking.

STATED by writers : his power is millions of times more than MRavel power combined, that means Living Tribunal who omniversal is nothing to him, and guess who's nothing to LT, it's all the multiversal beings including Mikaboshi, CW Hercules, Oblivion, Eternity, ...etc

Michael recreated a multiverse? sure sure, Celesitals did that, CW Hercules did that, Nemesis did that, Enthropy and Genis Vell did that, and who's beating all of those guys? Living Tribunal of course, and who's making LT wet his pants? Beyonder of course.

Michael and Lucifer are germs to Beyonder, hell they are nothing to even LT.

get over it.

and spare me your nonsens

@all_mighty_beyonder: @van_cere: PR Beyonder = TOAA.

@Frozen: no. for one, he was not omniscient. he did not know many things, got tricked by dr doom....he was not omnipotent. he had to put almost all his power into a cup to kill death.

@All_Mighty_Beyonder: come on, let us do a CAV about this. your trolling and twisting my words and will not stop. ever. unless you know just how pathetic your arguments are by letting other people do the judging.

if you still say you do not have time, I can give you two months to prepare. though for now, I really need to flag you for insulting.

PR Beyonder Stomps.

@SC: I do not think my flagging button is working. so I am flagging @All_Mighty_Beyonder: for continuous insults.

@hulkman123: @frozen: @all_mighty_beyonder: PR Beyonder's sole impressive feat is killing Death. That's really it. He killed an abstract, whoopdy freaking do.

Do you know how many characters there are out there that can kill an abstract being? As I listed above, that's a feat that Lucifer, Mxy, LT, Abraxas, Anti-Monitor, MJJ, HOM Wanda, Legion, Adult Franklin Richards, and many many many more could pull off. While it's definitely not a feat to be scoffed at, it's CERTAINLY not one that equals TOAA.

However, I can hear the arguments already...

"You're an idiot Jmarshmallow, he has a bunch of other awesome feats like beating nigh-omnipotent Owen Reece, being the sole god of his own universe, and he also showed to be infinitely more powerful than all the other gods of Marvel, including LT!"

Alright then. Let's go through those feat by feat.

First off, saying Owen is "nigh-omnipotent" is a bit of a loose term. Almost any and every competent abstract, reality warper, and really any Skyfather+ being could be considered "nigh-omnipotent." Heck, even Odin was called Omnipotent once or twice.

Besides fighting Beyonder, he has NO feats. So saying "Beyonder beat Molecule Man, a nigh-omnipotent being, he must be omnipotent" is a bit of a circular argument. Even more so once you consider the fact that Owen Reece got his power FROM the Beyonder, or at least his dimension or whatever. I'd be more surprised if Beyonder COULDN'T beat Owen.

Next, there's the whole "Beyonder's Universe is his own separate domain, one that he solely encompasses" argument.

I find this argument to be ridiculous, really.

It's almost like people forget how casually people make universes in the Marvel Universe. Franklin Richards made a pocket dimension like it was nothing as a child. Just because Beyonder "is" that dimension doesn't make it any more of a feat. If anything, it's less so, since he didn't even create life in his universe/dimension/thingy.

Third, and my personal favorite, is that he is "much stronger than all the Marvel abstracts combined, even LT!"

My response? Prove it.

He never once showed feats comparable to even the most basic of abstracts, let alone LT. Did he ever fight any abstracts? No. Did he ever do anything that nobody else could do? No.

People like to base this entire argument off the one scan where all the abstracts are crowded around Owen Reece saying "We need you to stop the Beyonder!" Blah blah blah. And then assuming that since Beyonder > Reece, that makes Beyonder this omnipotent being.

Well, that's just a messed up argument from the get-go. Since WHEN exactly did we just base ENTIRE arguments off statements alone? And not even definite statements, as LT never once states that either Reece or Beyonder is stronger than him.

People assume that just because the abstracts wanted Reece to do their dirty work, suddenly that makes them both > abstract.

Since when have abstracts EVER wanted to get their hands dirty? Is it really so hard to believe that none of them wanted to get involved? Considering that abstracts almost NEVER want to get involved?

Just like pretty much every aspect of Beyonder, that argument is surrounded by nothing by assumptions.

And to all of those people who still think that Beyonder is equal to TOAA, that would mean Beyonder is omnipotent.

And in case y'all don't know what omnipotent means, and I mean no offense by this whatsoever, it means that the being can do ANYTHING with absolutely no limitations.

Beyonder, on the other hand, was unable to bring Death back after he killed her. Being "unable" to do something is the exact OPPOSITE of omnipotent.

/rant

Jmarshmallow

Michael recreated a multiverse? sure sure, Celesitals did that, CW Hercules did that, Nemesis did that, Enthropy and Genis Vell did that, and who's beating all of those guys? Living Tribunal of course, and who's making LT wet his pants? Beyonder of course.

and Kami Tenchi is being claimed at the same level of TOAA because he recreated his universe ,that's false. heck even apollo from saint seiya did the same in the movie .

beyonder stomps.

So much bias here.

Beyonder > LT, all the abstracts combined, Lucifer and Michael.

Megamind solos

@eternityx: What a well thought-out and expertly constructed argument to my elaborate post.

Thank you for your response.

Jmarshmallow

@hulkman123: Well, at least you tried to provide some valid arguments. Few issues though.

1). It seems you're still basing too much of your opinion on statements, which are all but useless in an actual debate unless they are backed by feats and substantial evidence. Neither of which Beyonder has.

2). If you really think that any of the "feats" you mentioned have any actual value, I'd have to disagree. Repairing the multiverse is something that LT, HOM Wanda, and many many others have done. While still impressive, it doesn't suggest that he's anything more than just another powerful nigh-omnipotent being.

And the "slagging off an attack that could destroy dimensions" thing is completely unquantifiable, as a dimension can be created and destroyed rather easily depending on the dimension, in the case of Franklin Richards.

3). There's really no point in countering some of your other "points," as you didn't deem it necessary to rebuttal mine with anything besides what basically amounts to "No, I'm right, you're stupid and wrong."

Obviously I'm being dramatic, but that's truthfully what I felt your post just did.

In my opinion, you did nothing besides disregard pretty much my entire post and all the arguments I invested into it.

So while I appreciate that you put slightly more time into it than eternityx did, there's nothing more I can really do than just repost my previous argument.

So, for now I suppose, I'll let this thread continue its course. I'll be back when I'm needed.

Jmarshmallow