Prep in viner matches

I have been in a few debates where my opponents seems to thing that prep means you have free reign to things like retroactively change equipment or go back and carry out actions to counter strategies before they where aware of them.

What's the point of coming up with strategies when your opponent can read about them and then prep against them after prep?

Example of what I think is ok to retroactively prep:

asking for info on an opponents abilities when your characters have knowledge on them and your opponent using an ability he never informed you about.

Examples what I think is not:

suddenly placing limited equipment on a specific character so that the equipment is automatically where it is needed most.

carrying out any typical prep work such as placing explosives, often happens when your heading in that direction.

re-positioning characters to help with fights, example blue and red split up, blue gets in a fight and suddenly they didn't split up, this is pretty close to having free precog and teleportation.

pretty much most things you may want to add after match has begun, you prep before a match begins and you can't just keep adding to it or changing it until you come up with something that gets you a win or else your opponent could change do the same and it goes on forever. It's not time travel.

All I ask for is for people to explain how a character specifically wins a fight with prep. You know, specifics. What they'll use, how they'll go about doing it, etc.

Would make debates with prep much more lively conversations.

@wolverine08: This isn't character vs character

It's match battles between viners.

..Prep battles are the worst honestly. Cause when Batman.. Iron Man.. Reed.. Spider-Man etc have fanboys jump and say "wins cause of prep" and thats pretty much what they base an argument around.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

I know what you mean. I think it's alright to manipulate your characters actions providing everything you're saying is in-character and makes sense, and you don't just change everything you say in order to counter your opponent likes your team is omniscient to what is going on. Stick to one plan.

For instance, I justify Archer (Valiant comics) using planted explosives during prep time because he's done it twice before in comics, and has been stated as an expert in controlled demolition. I justify Darth Maul and Ninjak using cloaking to infiltrate and cause chaos because they do it consistently. Stuff like that is okay. Just using your characters like chess pieces without any personal motivation is just dumb.

@dextersinister: Really hard to give an answer to this.

You are skirting the line between what constitutes a character prepping and prep as designated by a CAVer.

I might no enough to about Reed Richards to say he beat x character with prep but I couldn't tell you exactly, in full detail, how he would do it because I am nowhere near as smart as Reed Richards. You can't really ask someone to try and tell you exactly what a character like that is going to do with prep, although they can really give you is a general idea of what they could possibly do with prep.

Retroactively changing equipment is something that should be spelled out in the rules. Most CAVs I have seen require that you list what gear your characters will have before the match begins and you can't change it after that. It's just one of those common sense rules imo that make things less complicated and prevent stupidity. That goes for prep or no prep, there's too much room for interpretation on what kind equipment a character is bringing and it can completely change a character's capabilities.

Carrying out counter-strategies again depends on the context. If it's a strategy that the characters you're using would have been aware of then I think it's perfectly fine for them to switch things up. Most of the times a character with prep will come up with a back-up plan or two anyway.

All of this is assuming it's information your characters would have had access to. If someone is trying to apply information to the battle that their characters would clearly not have had access to then they're breaking the fourth wall. And blatantly cheating.

suddenly placing limited equipment on a specific character so that the equipment is automatically where it is needed most.

Again, it depends on the rules. There should be a rule against this normally.

re-positioning characters to help with fights, example blue and red split up, blue gets in a fight and suddenly they didn't split up, this is pretty close to having free precog and teleportation.

I think this is perfectly fair, you're not writing an actual comic book just describing possibilities. And again, most characters are smart enough to come up with multiple plans anyway. You seem to be acting almost as if the CAV progresses in real time and it's actually happening on a post-by-post basis according to what the debaters describe. I don't see CAVs that way at all it's really more like simulation that goes through the many different possible outcomes of a certain encounter.

Of course not all CAVs are like that. If it's a CAV where you are actually trying to describe exactly how a team would win a match, like it's roleplaying or a CAV where the poster is supposed to be directing the heroes then it wouldn't make sense to change the plan once the battle has started. It really just depends on the rules and what type of CAV you're going for.

We're just going to have to make it an official rule in tourneys. Someone did that to me once and I was like -_- . Why are you doing that? How would your character even know that, I was doing that or had that?

That's one thing I can agree with. If it's information that your character wouldn't have had access to then they obviously can't act in accordance with that information. That's breaking the fourth wall, it's blatantly cheating.

@shenkuei: You're only cheating yourself, no voter with a brain is going to fall for it.

@shenkuei: I think this is perfectly fair, you're not writing an actual comic book just describing possibilities. And again, most characters are smart enough to come up with multiple plans anyway. You seem to be acting almost as if the CAV progresses in real time and it's actually happening on a post-by-post basis according to what the debaters describe. I don't see CAVs that way at all it's really more like simulation that goes through the many different possible outcomes of a certain encounter.

Vine battles and CAV are different.

CAV's are comparisons on the character and who is more likely to win so you can bring up multiple examples of how a character would handle it because it's purely how the character would handle it not you.

Vine battles are like a war game where you are given specific characters and a set goal which is normally defeat the other team, obviously character personality is a factor but you are effectively the writer. It would be more like going back moves in chess after you know what your opponent is planning.

@dextersinister: My mistake. I assumed vine battles and CAVs were the same thing.

I don't even know what a vine battle is to be honest.

@shenkuei: Like a mission tourney. I run to the boat to steal the jewels and I plant a bomb. You can't go back and say. Oh yeah, during prep, I made a bomb detector. -_-

Yeah that sounds like the exact opposite of what they are supposed to be doing then.

I strongly dislike prep in general. I dislike it even more in viner matches, depending on the debater I have to invest too much effort into the match to make sure things stay on the level. That said I always try to get as many specific details as possible, makes it harder to change stuff around.

This also, when people don't do this it contributes to my general distaste for prep. The prep as a magic bullet is just lazy form, I've lost count of how many times I see '_____ wins because of prep', show your work.

@shenkuei: @sovereign91001: @dextersinister:

I just make sure in my tourneys I don't give away prep for free and they can only use their own gear and natural things in their environment. When people start trying to pull BS like going off to find a tank or a Jet, prep is no longer fun. It becomes a huge crunch the opponent ****rides to victory. That's why I don't allow the use of map weapons.

@mikep12: I don't think anyone wants to call anyone out here or bring up names or spefic matches. Let's continue to talk in a general sense.

@lukehero@dextersinister sorry about that :p

@mikep12: We can talk about your spefic example in the group chat, but for this forum. You should delete or edit that post.

@lukehero: Deleted.

@mikep12: Thumbs Up. Classy.

@lukehero: No prob.

@mikep12: I don't know what you posted and it's probably best I don't if you needed to delete it but think of this thread as more informative than anything, you are far from the only person to think that prep was changeable.

Just imagine how godlike it would be if that where the case and only one person had it.

I think sometimes people think "prep" automatically means that character has their greatest invention or whatever immediately. So, if Batman once has a Radion bullet it doesn't mean he's always got one spare. To me, prep means standard equipment plus any equipment than can easily be taken from their base (for example, a "Bat-Jet" from the Batcave) and any other devices they can make in the certain time period (so Peter Parker may have the intelligence to create, say, a battle suit but does he have the resources?).

I agree with this.

I said this many times myself.

The worst example is people assuming that Doom has Galactus and the Byonders power on tap when he required those with resources he no longer has and at great personnel risk something that should never be allowed in prep. If your character is going to annoy or go after people that could oppose them then that most certainly falls outside of prep.

This makes complete sense.

Prep in viner matches can be abused.

@deathhero61: That's what we are discussing. It's up to viners to police themselves and then contact the tourney ref if they feel like they need a clear ruling to be given. As I have said though, no voter with a brain is going to fall for it.

It's better to just wave the white flag & lose then to make a fool of yourself.

Example: Team A: Luke Cage & BP vs Team B: Bloodshot.

Both teams have prep & full knowledge.

Team A Posts: During Prep Luke Cage & BP stack up rocks to make a pathway.

Team B: Bloodshot uses his nanites to reach out into BP tech & the nanites inside of Luke Cage's Head(Little Known Fact, Most if not all of the Thunder Bolts were injected with nanites).

Team A: Oh well, BP has full knowledge so he builds a device to protect Cage & himself from Bloodshot.

Team B: -_- WTF??? You can't pull that retroactive ish.

Instead of moving forward with a counter move, the other person tries to go back in time & do something.