#1 Edited by The Mjolnir Wielder (7906 posts) - - Show Bio

                                                                                                                                                               
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                               vs.  
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                 

#2 Posted by Batosaims7 (904 posts) - - Show Bio

PR MM ftw

#3 Posted by The Mjolnir Wielder (7906 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump
#4 Posted by mrwenpire (275 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually, Living Tribunal is outclassed here ( lol, big surprise for some of you ). 
 MM >>>>>>> LT, MJJ>>>>> LT
But it would depend on which version of Mad Jim Jasper u talking about. 
#5 Posted by Tevnoba (3494 posts) - - Show Bio
@mrwenpire said:
" Actually, Living Tribunal is outclassed here ( lol, big surprise for some of you ).  MM >>>>>>> LT, MJJ>>>>> LTBut it would depend on which version of Mad Jim Jasper u talking about.  "
MJJ <<<<<<<< LT (sorry to burst your bubble).  MJJ is a big honcho and all, but your giving him way too much credit.
#6 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm pretty sure Tribunal takes both of them, he's powered by TOAA and I'm pretty sure if he needed it he'd just pull even more power out of the cosmos.

#7 Posted by drkcloud (328 posts) - - Show Bio

eh....but PR MM stood head to toe to PR beyonder which was AS powerful as TOAA

#8 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio
@drkcloud: TOAA is massively beyond PR Beyonder.
#9 Posted by xyrzrockrain (921 posts) - - Show Bio
@Baldy:  
 
why?
#10 Posted by gobstakid777 (1815 posts) - - Show Bio
@Batosaims7 said:
" PR MM ftw "
#11 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio
@xyrzrockrain: Because all he's only the sum power of his reality, TOAA is the most powerful being in EVERY marvel reality.
#12 Posted by xyrzrockrain (921 posts) - - Show Bio
@Baldy:  
 
Stan Lee said that PR Beyonder is the TOAA of his actuality. An that PR Beyonder was just a visitor in the Marvel Universe.
#13 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio
@xyrzrockrain: Oh well fair enough, I didn't know that. Thanks for pointing that out.
#14 Posted by chunjacktao (334 posts) - - Show Bio
@Tevnoba said:

" @mrwenpire said:

" Actually, Living Tribunal is outclassed here ( lol, big surprise for some of you ).  MM >>>>>>> LT, MJJ>>>>> LTBut it would depend on which version of Mad Jim Jasper u talking about.  "
MJJ <<<<<<<< LT (sorry to burst your bubble).  MJJ is a big honcho and all, but your giving him way too much credit. "
 As stated by Merlin..... 
 
 "This version of Jaspers. Is too powerful, too dangerous. His counterpart could at least be halted, even if it meant destroying his entire continuum. This one is not so easily containable. And if he cannot be defeated, then the omniverse shall fall into chaos, and a new and hostile god shall play dice with matter."  
 
What Merlin meant was : Jasper HAD THE POTENTIAL to be as powerful as God.......  he could make the OMNIVERSE fall into chaos, and as GOD, he wold play dice with matter.
 
That is >>>>>>>>> than LT.
#15 Posted by mrwenpire (275 posts) - - Show Bio
@Baldy said:
"I'm pretty sure Tribunal takes both of them, he's powered by TOAA and I'm pretty sure if he needed it he'd just pull even more power out of the cosmos. "

You're PATHETIC man..........  Beyonder basically IS TOAA.  It is the most comon and basic knoledge that Beyonder >>>>>>>>> Living Tribunal.  Everyone also knows that Living Tribunal KNEW that he was no match for Beyonder, so LT turned to molecule man for help.  Hell, I doubt you even know who those characters are...... judging from you saying that LT can take both Molecule Man AND MJJ, u really ARE disillusional.  I will state this again, Molecule Man stood toe to toe with Beyonder, who is as powerful as TOAA.  That means Molecule Man >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Living Tribunal. 
#16 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio
@mrwenpire said:
" @Baldy said:
"I'm pretty sure Tribunal takes both of them, he's powered by TOAA and I'm pretty sure if he needed it he'd just pull even more power out of the cosmos. "

You're PATHETIC man..........  Beyonder basically IS TOAA.  It is the most comon and basic knoledge that Beyonder >>>>>>>>> Living Tribunal.  Everyone also knows that Living Tribunal KNEW that he was no match for Beyonder, so LT turned to molecule man for help.  Hell, I doubt you even know who those characters are...... judging from you saying that LT can take both Molecule Man AND MJJ, u really ARE disillusional.  I will state this again, Molecule Man stood toe to toe with Beyonder, who is as powerful as TOAA.  That means Molecule Man >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Living Tribunal.  "
Thanks for being being a dick and needlessly insulting me even though i already conceeded this fact. Go troll somewhere else.
#17 Edited by chunjacktao (334 posts) - - Show Bio
@Baldy said:

" @mrwenpire said:

" @Baldy said:
"I'm pretty sure Tribunal takes both of them, he's powered by TOAA and I'm pretty sure if he needed it he'd just pull even more power out of the cosmos. "

You're PATHETIC man..........  Beyonder basically IS TOAA.  It is the most comon and basic knoledge that Beyonder >>>>>>>>> Living Tribunal.  Everyone also knows that Living Tribunal KNEW that he was no match for Beyonder, so LT turned to molecule man for help.  Hell, I doubt you even know who those characters are...... judging from you saying that LT can take both Molecule Man AND MJJ, u really ARE disillusional.  I will state this again, Molecule Man stood toe to toe with Beyonder, who is as powerful as TOAA.  That means Molecule Man >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Living Tribunal.  "
Thanks for being being a dick and needlessly insulting me even though i already conceeded this fact. Go troll somewhere else. "
So you are calling someone a troll even though YOU are the one who made the retarded mistake of thinking that LT is stronger than Molecule Man and Mad Jim Jaspers combined, and you thought that Beyonder was weaker than TOAA, even though they were the same guy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  What can I say??  If anyone here is a troll it would be you.  And if anyone here is a dick it would be you as well.
 
All Mrwenpire did was point out your mistake.  Instead of thanking him, you acted like a complete loser!!! You just dissed and embarrased yourself really really bad right there!!!
#18 Posted by mrwenpire (275 posts) - - Show Bio
@Baldy said:
" @drkcloud: TOAA is massively beyond PR Beyonder. "
You really aren't that bright, are you, Baldy??????  Lol.  
 
O, and thanks for calling me a dick, even though all I did was correct your incorrect misconception of thinking that Beyonder was <<< than TOAA.
 
You have been flagged.  Have a good day, Trolly.
#19 Posted by King Saturn (224158 posts) - - Show Bio

as much as I like Jaspers... Jaspers in this battle is almost like putting Monique in a Wet T Shirt Contest with Jessica Alba and Eva Mendes... 


#20 Posted by chunjacktao (334 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Saturn said:
"

as much as I like Jaspers... Jaspers in this battle is almost like putting Monique in a Wet T Shirt Contest with Jessica Alba and Eva Mendes... 


"
Bringing chaos and destruction to entire universes, and threatening the entire omniverse isn't at ALL below LT or MM.    Also, MJJ's power grows at an exponential rate.
#21 Posted by King Saturn (224158 posts) - - Show Bio
@chunjacktao said:
" @King Saturn said:
"

as much as I like Jaspers... Jaspers in this battle is almost like putting Monique in a Wet T Shirt Contest with Jessica Alba and Eva Mendes... 


"
Bringing chaos and destruction to entire universes, and threatening the entire omniverse isn't at ALL below LT or MM.    Also, MJJ's power grows at an exponential rate. "
the last part you said is in theory... we havent seen it in actual fact... as far as Jaspers destroying Universes... yeah your right... but last time I checked Classic Molecule Man effected the entire Multiverse with the snap of his fingers... thats a Wee Bit of a Bigger Feat than what Jaspers has accomplished... and I wont deny the fact of Jaspers being considered an Omniversal Threat... but Jaspers doesnt have the Scale of Power as a LT or MM
#22 Posted by mrwenpire (275 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Saturn said:
"@chunjacktao said:
" @King Saturn said:
"

as much as I like Jaspers... Jaspers in this battle is almost like putting Monique in a Wet T Shirt Contest with Jessica Alba and Eva Mendes... 


"
Bringing chaos and destruction to entire universes, and threatening the entire omniverse isn't at ALL below LT or MM.    Also, MJJ's power grows at an exponential rate. "
the last part you said is in theory... we havent seen it in actual fact... as far as Jaspers destroying Universes... yeah your right... but last time I checked Classic Molecule Man effected the entire Multiverse with the snap of his fingers... thats a Wee Bit of a Bigger Feat than what Jaspers has accomplished... and I wont deny the fact of Jaspers being considered an Omniversal Threat... but Jaspers doesnt have the Scale of Power as a LT or MM "

Mad Jim Jaspers is THE most powerful reality warper in MU.  Period.  That doesn't necessarily put him above Molecule man, but at least he is strong enough to HURT molecule man, which is all that matters for now.  As for LT, I still think that if Merlin went as far as saying MJJ could become the new TOAA, or new God of the omniverse, LT is no match for MJJ. 
#23 Posted by cracks (6781 posts) - - Show Bio

LOL. Crazy Jaspers.         %Pr

#24 Posted by Hellos (8914 posts) - - Show Bio

 
#25 Posted by mrwenpire (275 posts) - - Show Bio
@Hellos said:
"
 
"

No one is denying that ever happened.
#26 Posted by why so serious (1388 posts) - - Show Bio

MM
#27 Posted by Metalslash (178 posts) - - Show Bio

anyone on team can win. MJJ will stomp.

#28 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

team wins

#29 Posted by All_Mighty_Beyonder (1577 posts) - - Show Bio

LT>>>>>>>>>>Mad Jim Jaspers

and

Molecule Man>>>>>>>>>>LT

even if Mad Jim Jaspers is a powerful omniversal being but he's non-factor in this fight.

Molecule Man wins this after a entertaining fight.

PS : Beyonder >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Molecule Man

#30 Posted by JackKnight (2969 posts) - - Show Bio

Molecule Man should win here, if he can take on PR Beyonder then Mad Jim Jaspers and Living Tribunal shouldn't be a problam for him.

#31 Posted by Sideslash (5907 posts) - - Show Bio

@All_Mighty_Beyonder said:

LT>>>>>>>>>>Mad Jim Jaspers

and

Molecule Man>>>>>>>>>>LT

even if Mad Jim Jaspers is a powerful omniversal being but he's non-factor in this fight.

Molecule Man wins this after a entertaining fight.

PS : Beyonder >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Molecule Man

No. Just no.

#32 Posted by All_Mighty_Beyonder (1577 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sideslash: what's no?

#33 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

I think people selecting Mad Jim Jaspers are from the UK.

#34 Posted by XxGin (1358 posts) - - Show Bio

Here is a easy way to think of this battle other than TOAA there is no one who can beat PRMM OR PRB.

The living Turbinal had to beg PRMM to defeat PRB cause he could not do it himself. PR MM and B are both nigh omipotent.

#35 Posted by Sideslash (5907 posts) - - Show Bio

@All_Mighty_Beyonder said:

@Sideslash: what's no?

Pre-Retcon Molecule Man was fighting Pre-Retcon Beyonder on equal terms.

#36 Posted by darkelf35 (518 posts) - - Show Bio

MM

#37 Posted by All_Mighty_Beyonder (1577 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sideslash said:

@All_Mighty_Beyonder said:

@Sideslash: what's no?

Pre-Retcon Molecule Man was fighting Pre-Retcon Beyonder on equal terms.

no, Beyonder was limiting himself, and tried not to hurt them, but in the end he got angry and throw them all with one blow.

Molecule Man who is more powerful than any being in the multiverse (including LT, Eternity,...) is very weak compared to Beyonder, the difference in power between him and Beyonder is like the infinite difference between Captain America and Molecule Man. if you can imagine Molecule Man standing against an all out Beyonder, it would be like if Captain America standing against someone above LT, can you imagine that!!!!

PS: source of the bolded parts are directly from Secret wars 2 last issue, you can check that if you want.

#38 Posted by LubeMan (1067 posts) - - Show Bio

MJJ is under LT, so, what does he bring?? I'm just trying to picture adding MJJ to this pic and what difference it would make??

#39 Posted by Owie (3734 posts) - - Show Bio

@All_Mighty_Beyonder said:

no, Beyonder was limiting himself, and tried not to hurt them, but in the end he got angry and throw them all with one blow.

Molecule Man who is more powerful than any being in the multiverse (including LT, Eternity,...) is very weak compared to Beyonder, the difference in power between him and Beyonder is like the infinite difference between Captain America and Molecule Man. if you can imagine Molecule Man standing against an all out Beyonder, it would be like if Captain America standing against someone above LT, can you imagine that!!!!

PS: source of the bolded parts are directly from Secret wars 2 last issue, you can check that if you want.

I know you keep saying that thing about Beyonder, Molecule Man, and Captain America in multiple threads. I haven't bothered to discus this with you before because it's a big topic, but here we go.

First, the exact quote from Reece is, "I transact on power levels unimaginable to you, Captain America, and the Beyonder, it seems, on levels unimaginable to me!"

This isn't quite the same thing as saying that the distance between Cap and Reece is the same as the distance between Reece and Beyonder. It does imply that the Beyonder is far more powerful than Reece. But it does not imply that the difference is necessarily as big as the difference between Reece and Cap.

The exact distance between SW2-era Molecule Man and Beyonder is a little inconsistent (like all comics) to be honest. No matter what, Beyonder was clearly significantly more powerful than Reece, but the amount varies. Let's look at some of the instances where they clashed, or where their power is compared.

When the Beyonder puts all the atoms on Earth under his control, the only ones he doesn't are Reece's. He calls Reece an "exception, a special case! But he isn't a problem to me! I can always deal with him later if I wish!" On the one hand, this shows that the Beyonder could certainly control Reece if he wanted. But, the fact that he does not do it unless he has to implies that it would at least take a reasonable effort to do it; otherwise why wouldn't he do it right away (besides that they're friends, but he has other Earth friends and doesn't mind controlling them at first)? So this means that Reece's power is at least vaguely significant in relation to the Beyonder's.

On the other and, when Reece made his bubble forcefield around Denver, using almost all his power, Beyonder shattered it easily, implying that Beyonder was far beyond Reece.

Soon after, when Reece blasted Beyonder with multiple attacks in his apartment (the ones that would have slagged several billion dimensions), the Beyonder was taken aback a bit and seemed truly stunned--for a second. Then he recouped and was clearly not permanently affected. But this still implied that the Beyonder was closer in power to Reece than the force field incident.

Later, when the Beyonder is described as having "millions of times" more energy than the entire multiverse (which would assumedly include Reece), then that certainly implies that the Beyonder is vastly beyond Reece.

Finally, when Beyonder and Reece clashed at the end in the Beyonder's underground base, it's true that the Beyonder didn't originally want to fight, but Reece was serious and the Beyonder felt the need to really take care of him. He says, "You sure you want it this way, Owie?" Here, Reece stood up to him for a short time. He is described as "losing ground ever more rapidly." This implies that it was taking at least some measurable amount of time, which is important. If the Beyonder was at a near-infinite distance above Reece, then even if he was "holding back" (i.e., didn't want to hurt him), he could still have instantly defeated him, just knocking him out or removing his power. If they were that far apart in power, holding back or not, it would take Beyonder no effort and no time to beat him. However, this is not what happened. Even if he wanted to avoid hurting Owen, he desperately wanted to stop him. If he could have done this more quickly, he would have. But he couldn't. It took him time to defeat Reece. In that battle, Reece says "I'm cancelling out some of his power--weakening him enough so that your combined strength might affect him." This again implies that Reece was able to really, even if moderately, affect Beyonder. The Beyonder says, "You had a chance--! And it's unbelievable that you did--! But it's over!" My personal, totally guesswork estimate is that Reece seems to have maybe 30% of Beyonder's power here in order to stand up to him like this.

Then, with Reece collapsing from his expenditure of power, Beyonder swept him aside and basted him and everyone else. Reece, having not used all his power in that last fight (which is a significant point since it was his best showing against the Beyonder) was able to do a lot of complex stuff in that instant--not only saving himself and the other heroes, but putting every living thing in the target range in subspace. Which implies that he could do a fair amount to stop the Beyonder's wishes even when he was weakened.

It's also worth pointing out that it's this point in time where he makes the Captain America quote--so if you put that quote in context, what he's sort of saying is, "Well, I managed to fight him off for a while and weaken him to a point where a bunch of Earth heroes could potentially hurt him, and even when he beat me I managed to thwart his intent to kill us all, but yes, he is much more powerful than I am."

So like I said, it's inconsistent. The "millions of times more energy comment" and the forcefield showing show their power levels separated by a vast distance. The others show them closer in power to varying degrees. My total guesswork estimations of Reece's relative power level in comparison to the Beyonder's at those instances are maybe 1% of the Beyonder's power (forcefield), 10-20% of Beyonder's (dimension-slagging blast and the controlling all the atoms in the world incident), and 30+ percent of Beyonder's (final battle).

So point being, your reading of the Captain America quote isn't quite accurate, and isn't the only (or best) way to measure their relative power levels, which in any case are presented fairly inconsistently.

(I personally think--and this is just my theory, from one MM/Beyonder fan to another--that the final battle is the most accurate yardstick, and here's why. Much later, in the post-retcon era, which of course deals with totally different conceptions of MM and Beyonder, Reece pulls the Beyonder out of his Kosmos form and beats him, in a reversal of their SW2 climax. Reece even says that he transacts on power levels unimaginable to Beyonder, inverting the Captain America quote. Then Kubik says that Reece is actually the most powerful of all the sentient Cubes because he possesses the infinite potential of humanity, and the human spirit, while all the other Cubes are essentially abstracts. To reiterate, Reece is able, in that post-retcon era, to draw on his human potential and human spirit to beat Beyonder. I think this is kind of what happened in the Secret Wars 2 era. In the SW2 era, of course, they're not considered Cubes, but the Beyonder is still essentially an abstract being, and Reece still has this potentiality of the human spirit, so the abstract/human parallel still exists, even if the Cube origin is different. I think that in the final SW2 battle, Reece finally utilized his human spirit in a way he never had in their previous clashes---remember that this was explicitly the first time he really tried to inhabit the role of a hero, and so he could call on those kinds of spiritual resources more than he could when he was a petty villain, or even just trying to live a normal life--and that was what enabled him to match up somewhat better with the Beyonder than he had before. Anyway, this is just my pet theory.)

#40 Posted by Alyssabird (1363 posts) - - Show Bio

Team Takes This

#41 Posted by All_Mighty_Beyonder (1577 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie:

The exact distance between SW2-era Molecule Man and Beyonder is a little inconsistent (like all comics) to be honest.

no, there is no clear inconsistency, let me explain it while reponding to cases you mentioned.

On the other and, when Reece made his bubble forcefield around Denver, using almost all his power, Beyonder shattered it easily, implying that Beyonder was far beyond Reece.

true, that is the case.

Soon after, when Reece blasted Beyonder with multiple attacks in his apartment (the ones that would have slagged several billion dimensions), the Beyonder was taken aback a bit and seemed truly stunned--for a second. Then he recouped and was clearly not permanently affected. But this still implied that the Beyonder was closer in power to Reece than the force field incident

no, just no. in this case, Owen only used 2 blasts not multiple attacks, and both blasts had taken Beyonder by surprise, the first one when he just entered the room, and the second when he was trying to explain to Owen that he came to apologize. don't forget that Beyonder is ,most of the time, holding back and limiting himself, he got injured by the Thing, crushed by the Hulk, unbalanced by Captain America...etc. so that scene where he only coughed is a normal thing, and doesn't emply anything but Beyonder's superiority in power by far.

Later, when the Beyonder is described as having "millions of times" more energy than the entire multiverse (which would assumedly include Reece), then that certainly implies that the Beyonder is vastly beyond Reece.

true.

Finally, when Beyonder and Reece clashed at the end in the Beyonder's underground base, it's true that the Beyonder didn't originally want to fight, but Reece was serious and the Beyonder felt the need to really take care of him. He says, "You sure you want it this way, Owie?" Here, Reece stood up to him for a short time. He is described as "losing ground ever more rapidly." This implies that it was taking at least some measurable amount of time, which is important. If the Beyonder was at a near-infinite distance above Reece, then even if he was "holding back" (i.e., didn't want to hurt him), he could still have instantly defeated him, just knocking him out or removing his power. If they were that far apart in power, holding back or not, it would take Beyonder no effort and no time to beat him. However, this is not what happened. Even if he wanted to avoid hurting Owen, he desperately wanted to stop him. If he could have done this more quickly, he would have. But he couldn't. It took him time to defeat Reece. In that battle, Reece says "I'm cancelling out some of his power--weakening him enough so that your combined strength might affect him." This again implies that Reece was able to really, even if moderately, affect Beyonder. The Beyonder says, "You had a chance--! And it's unbelievable that you did--! But it's over!" My personal, totally guesswork estimate is that Reece seems to have maybe 30% of Beyonder's power here in order to stand up to him like this.

no, wrong again, there is nothing that implies Owen's close to Beyonder's level, specially with the other scenes confirming the vast difference between them. if you look to the panels where Beyonder and Owen clashed you'll see that Beyonder was still trying to convince Owen to stop, saying : "if you'd just listen to me, maybe i could convince you otherwise" and this scene was after the saying : "You sure you want it this way, Owie?", Beyonder was trying to convince him and the others that he found a way to live, that he won't hurt them, that he won't hurt anybody, "look, you just don't understand! i'm not intrested in destroying anything anymore", Beyonder didn't have in first place the intent to defeat Owen, he was only trying to reason him while holding him, Owen was thinking of Beyonder as absolute evil, and seeing that he didn't crush him got confidence (wrong confidence though) and thought maybe he can beat him with the help of the others. but at the end, Beyonder lost patience, and blowed them all with one wave of his hand.

we don't actually see Beyonder with a ferious face untill they actually were close from hitting him. it's at that moment that Beyonder started getting serious and blowed them with one wave of his hand, though, i believe he was still holding back, beause after the blow, he regretted what he did because he destoyed a huge part of the planet and made it lose it's orbit and mass. he was obliged to repair what he caused because as he stated in the first place he isn't intrested in destroying anything anymore.

let's not forget that Puma also was too close from killing Beyonder, Doctor Strage also was close from emprisoning him, why all that? because Beyonder keep holding back and limiting himself greatly.

It's also worth pointing out that it's this point in time where he makes the Captain America quote--so if you put that quote in context, what he's sort of saying is, "Well, I managed to fight him off for a while and weaken him to a point where a bunch of Earth heroes could potentially hurt him, and even when he beat me I managed to thwart his intent to kill us all, but yes, he is much more powerful than I am."

this is pure allusion, there is nothing from what Owen said, or showed that have the same meaning as what you wrote.

So like I said, it's inconsistent. The "millions of times more energy comment" and the forcefield showing show their power levels separated by a vast distance. The others show them closer in power to varying degrees. My total guesswork estimations of Reece's relative power level in comparison to the Beyonder's at those instances are maybe 1% of the Beyonder's power (forcefield), 10-20% of Beyonder's (dimension-slagging blast and the controlling all the atoms in the world incident), and 30+ percent of Beyonder's (final battle).

ooow, now that's sound like DBZ debate using PL. :P sorry just kidding, i just had this sentence in my head, and had to make it come out.

anyway, you're seeing inconsistencies because you have wrong ideas, it's that simple, this is not a philosophical book to go that far in interpretations and fancy theories. this is a simple comic book with simple logic. as i explained before there is no inconsistency, there is no scene where Beyonder was serious and all out to say that Owen is close to him, and the only moment where he was serious was when heroes were close to hit him, which made him angry and blew the hell out of all of them including Owen, but was stil carful to not blow entire earth with it.

Owen never had the potential to even hurt Beyonder, and saying he has 30%, or 10% or even 1% is the real inconsistency, because Owen said himself : "on levels unimaginable to me" it's as clear as the sun, Beyonder' level is unimaginable to Owen, thus it exceeds quantifications and calculations like 30% or even 1% that you said. that's an irrefutable proof, and other feats confirm it. while no feat contradict it.

#42 Posted by Owie (3734 posts) - - Show Bio

@All_Mighty_Beyonder:

Well, I'm afraid the inconsistencies are pretty obvious even if you don't want to see them.

Let's focus on the last battle again, to make this clear. First, yes of course the Beyonder wanted to talk, not fight. But Owen didn't give him a chance, he was there to kill him, as you said. So the Beyonder had to defend himself. He stopped talking about wanting to talk right after they started fighting for real.

Now, if this was the Beyonder who effortlessly destroyed Reece's forcefield bubble, he could have stopped Reece in the final battle just as easily. He could have easily done this and still tried to reason with him. All he had to do was take away Owen's powers, or paralyze him. But, he didn't. Why? The only conceivable reason, other than straight up PIS (and if you want to use that as a crutch, go ahead), is that he couldn't. There is no conceivable reason why he would limit himself in this final battle. What on earth could be his motive for limiting himself? All his previous examples of limiting himself were for particular reasons--he was suicidal, or he wanted to try a new experience. The Beyonder at the end of SW2 was self-confident, he was excited about his new experiment, he did not want to put that off for any longer than he had to. He had no reason to limit himself, an he had specific reasons not to limit himself.

And yet Beyonder was forced into going into a battle of main force against Reece. Power against power. And this time, unlike previous times, Beyonder did not shrug it off. He did not end it in a split second. Why? He couldn't. There's no other motive.

It took time. He had to slowly defeat Reece--see again the Vision's statement about Reece losing ground. To requote Owen: "I'm cancelling out some of his power--weakening him enough so that your combined strength might affect him." The Beyonder didn't question this statement, in fact he supported it. In order for him to do this, he must be at least vaguely close in power to the Beyonder. Think of it as an arm-wrestling contest. You could wrestle a guy way stronger than you, but last for a while at least. But if the guy is infinitely stronger than you? You'd be down in an instant. Again, let's look at the argument for self-limiting--why on earth would the Beyonder, at this most critical juncture for his life, play games? Why would he intentionally give them a chance to defeat him? Why wouldn't he just stop Reece immediately if he could? The only answer is that he couldn't.

Finally, Reece started losing energy: "I...can't...maintain pressure! So...exhausted!" That is why the Beyonder was then able to finally sweep Reece aside and take him and everyone else out with his final bolt. It's not only that he got ticked off, it's that it was his first chance to do so, because he was wearing Reece down. Why was he ticked off here anyway? Because, to quote again, "You had a chance--! And it's unbelievable that you did--! But it's over!" He admits it. He realizes that the heroes had a chance. He never thought they would. If he was self-limiting, if this was just another game or challenge or test to him, he surely would have taken this possibility into account, he wouldn't be surprised.

Also, you say the Beyonder first showed a furious face when he finally sweeps them all away. Really? Look again at his face when he first sweeps away the heroes the first time. Doesn't look so happy to me. Look at him in the climactic "two mightiest beings" image--he looks pretty serious in intent, and might I say even furious there too? Brows furrowed, mouth in a scowl, an aggressive stance. In fact, he was serious, because he had to be.

To sum up here, the Beyonder was forced into a serious fight. He didn't just beat Owen instantly, which the force field incident and the "millions of times more energy than the multiverse" comment would lead you to believe he could. He took a fair amount of time, and was weakened to the point where the heroes could have potentially hurt him. This shows pretty clearly that this is an inconsistent showing on the part of Reece. My personal belief to explain this inconsistency is that it's just because Owen managed to man up a bit, after getting some self-confidence and getting the love of his life back, but if you just want to see it as an inconsistency instead, that's fine with me.

What it simply can't be is that the Beyonder, against all logic and precedence, decided to limit himself in the battle. He had every reason on earth to stop the battle as quickly as possible, and no reason on earth to draw it out. Based on the forcefield incident, it would have seemed that he could have simply stopped Reece, and if he still wanted to have a conversation with him then, then he could have done that. Why not just freeze him in place? Why not take away his power?

Let's look at some previous times he limited himself. In the Dr. Strange and Thing incidents, he was filled with self-loathing and anger. So he let himself become drunk, and thus potentially under the sway of Strange. He limited himself to Thing-level powers for wrestling because he was angry and didn't care about life any more. So he had specific reasons. He was in a self-defeating state of mind.

When it comes to Puma, I don't believe he was limiting himself, but instead of getting into that argument, let's say he was. If he was, he again had a specific reason--he was obsessed with people's roles in life, and wanted to fulfill Puma's role in life--as well as his own role as a teacher of people's roles in their lives.

Other times, he did it as an experiment in life. He ate food, he let himself get cut. But in these situations, he did it on purpose, and he didn't let himself get seriously hurt. Let's take another simple example. When the Black Knight stabbed him, he had no reaction at all. This was his basic form--unable to be hurt.

He didn't just go around limiting himself, and he especially didn't just go around in a vulnerable state, for no reason, especially after the incident with Death. He usually had his full power, unless there was a reason not to. And again, in this final fight, not only did he not have a reason to limit himself, he specifically had reasons not to limit himself.

A few other points--when Owen attacked him in his apartment, it was in fact 3 blasts, not 2. Although 2 is still "multiple" anyway, so I can't see how that matters. Of course it was a surprise attack--why should that matter if Beyonder is infinitely beyond him? And Beyonder didn't just cough it off, he yelled when he got hit, and also said "Oww!" Hardly the most dire of screams of course, but still it obviously hurt him. Each time he got hit, he was visibly knocked back. Again, this didn't seriously hurt him, but it hurt him more than you would think based on the force field incident. It's inconsistent.

And again there's the whole "controlling all the atoms in the world" situation. Why wouldn't he control Owen unless it took at least some effort to do so?

I'm surprised you don't think this is a philosophical book with "fancy theories." I think the whole series is about some basic philosophical topics--desire, experience, love, one's role in life, what it means to be human. Beyond the fact that these topics run consistently and prominently throughout the series, Jim Shooter has also been very upfront in interviews about it, saying that he very much intended to write a book that was about the big philosophical questions in life.

Let's end on "levels unimaginable to me." Yes, this means the Beyonder's power level was beyond Owen's ability to understand. On the other hand, as I pointed out before, he said this directly after facing up to the Beyonder and still having energy left to do a bunch of stuff, which makes it seem like the Beyonder was at least somewhat close in power to him.

Now, you take this to mean there's an infinite (or near-infinite) gulf between them. But I don't think that has to be the case for his statement to be true. It is a large gulf, but not infinite. Let's just think what it means to try to imagine something that is beyond you. For instance, I'm a smart guy. I'm sure you're a smart guy too, there are plenty of smart guys on this site. But if I try to imagine someone smarter than me, I can't really understand what that means. How do they see the world? What do they understand that I do not? I can't imagine what it means to understand things I don't understand, even for someone who is, let's say, only a bit smarter than me. Or take another example. I do kung fu. I am ok, not great. I practice, and I get better. But until I practice something enough, I literally cannot conceive what it means to be better than I am. I can sense my lack of skill, but I can't imagine what it is like to actually have that skill, to know what it feels like, to have a sense of that kind of movement or grace. In this same way, the Beyonder is beyond Reece. Owen can't imagine what it is like to have that amount of power. It's huge, it's beyond him. But I don't think it has to be an infinity beyond him, it may merely be twice as powerful as him, three times, ten times, twenty times, whatever. If someone could do something ten times better than you, could you really imagine what it would be like to be them? I couldn't.

In any case, this is one statement among many. If you don't like my interpretation above, then put it directly against some of the other quotes I've been using. Me, I see inconsistency, and a general indication that their power levels are not infinitely far apart:

"I transact on power levels unimaginable to you, Captain America, and the Beyonder, it seems, on levels unimaginable to me!"

"I'm cancelling out some of his power--weakening him enough so that your combined strength might affect him."

"You had a chance--! And it's unbelievable that you did--! But it's over!"

Reece is an "exception, a special case! But he isn't a problem to me! I can always deal with him later if I wish!"

#43 Edited by All_Mighty_Beyonder (1577 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie:

Let's focus on the last battle again, to make this clear. First, yes of course the Beyonder wanted to talk, not fight. But Owen didn't give him a chance, he was there to kill him, as you said. So the Beyonder had to defend himself. He stopped talking about wanting to talk right after they started fighting for real.
Now, if this was the Beyonder who effortlessly destroyed Reece's forcefield bubble, he could have stopped Reece in the final battle just as easily. He could have easily done this and still tried to reason with him. All he had to do was take away Owen's powers, or paralyze him. But, he didn't. Why? The only conceivable reason, other than straight up PIS (and if you want to use that as a crutch, go ahead), is that he couldn't. There is no conceivable reason why he would limit himself in this final battle. What on earth could be his motive for limiting himself? All his previous examples of limiting himself were for particular reasons--he was suicidal, or he wanted to try a new experience. The Beyonder at the end of SW2 was self-confident, he was excited about his new experiment, he did not want to put that off for any longer than he had to. He had no reason to limit himself, an he had specific reasons not to limit himself.
And yet Beyonder was forced into going into a battle of main force against Reece. Power against power. And this time, unlike previous times, Beyonder did not shrug it off. He did not end it in a split second. Why? He couldn't. There's no other motive.

as i said before, after they clashed in hand to hand, Beyonder was still asking him :"if you'd just listen to me, maybe i could convince you otherwise", there was no evidence or even clue, no panel or statement in that fight that shows Beyonder was seriously fighting and focusing. according to what he said, he was just trying to hold them off and explain to them that they are wrong about him. he didn't want to hurt them or take their powers or subdue them. he was just trying to talk to them. he could just take their powers away or subdue them like he did early in SW2, but he didn't because he changed, didn't want to hurt them or control their will anymore.

you keep saying why didn't he beat him quickly why didn't he paralyse him, it's simply because he hadn't the intention to do anything to them, so he was just trying to hold them and try to explain to them. it's like a baby hitting a grown-up man, the grown-up doesn't want to hurt the little baby, and the baby keep hitting the grown-up thinking he's doing fine fighting at even terms, which is not the case obviously. it's exactly the same in Beyonder vs MM+all heroes.

bring me one statement or scene where the Beyonder showed he's trying to beat them. there isn't!! because he wasn't trying ti beat them, just hold them, and hope he can reason them.

after that Beyonder lost patience, and just blew them easily.

so, you're talking about motives? Beyonder's motives in that fight were only holding them and reasoning them (proved by his own statements).

It took time. He had to slowly defeat Reece--see again the Vision's statement about Reece losing ground. To requote Owen: "I'm cancelling out some of his power--weakening him enough so that your combined strength might affect him." The Beyonder didn't question this statement, in fact he supported it. In order for him to do this, he must be at least vaguely close in power to the Beyonder. Think of it as an arm-wrestling contest. You could wrestle a guy way stronger than you, but last for a while at least. But if the guy is infinitely stronger than you? You'd be down in an instant. Again, let's look at the argument for self-limiting--why on earth would the Beyonder, at this most critical juncture for his life, play games? Why would he intentionally give them a chance to defeat him? Why wouldn't he just stop Reece immediately if he could? The only answer is that he couldn't.

as i said above, Beyonder had no motive to beat or hurt Owen and the others. Owen clashing for a long time with Beyonder, is like a baby who keep hitting a grown-up for a long time,

it's not like arm-wrestling where both contenders want to win, in this case only Owen want to win, while Beyonder keep stalling and holding him, hoping he can talk to him.

Owen doesn't know the real extent of Beyonder's power "...levels unimaginable to me", and was mistaken many times : "maybe with all my power butteressing the dome, it'll be Beyonder-proof", so when Owen cancelled some of his powers, Owen didn't know that's not all Beyonder's power in action.

just put yourself in his place, you finished with controling people, you don't want to do it anymore, you don't want to hurt anybody anymore, and your dear friend who is very weak compared to you, wants to kill you, but he can't because of your huge power, will you hurt him? will you stop him by force? you're just gonna make the situation worse, the only thing you can do is stalling, and holding him untill he gives up, then you can explain to him the situation when all the anger gets out of him.

Finally, Reece started losing energy: "I...can't...maintain pressure! So...exhausted!" That is why the Beyonder was then able to finally sweep Reece aside and take him and everyone else out with his final bolt. It's not only that he got ticked off, it's that it was his first chance to do so, because he was wearing Reece down. Why was he ticked off here anyway? Because, to quote again, "You had a chance--! And it's unbelievable that you did--! But it's over!" He admits it. He realizes that the heroes had a chance. He never thought they would. If he was self-limiting, if this was just another game or challenge or test to him, he surely would have taken this possibility into account, he wouldn't be surprised

and you really find it logical that a bunch of heroes can kill an all out Beyonder?!!!! even when you have tons of feats where he shows supperiority by millions times far than being scratched?

the only explanation is that he wasn't serious, because he didn't want to hurt anybody, for heroes this is a deadly fight, for Beyonder this is just a friend's quarrel, but he made a mistake letting them close to hurt him, exactly like he did when Puma was about to hurt him, and others did. what you don't understand is : this is not a fighter mode Beyonder, he was still soft and kind with them, keeping holding them, but when he saw that they were close from hurting him, he got serious and blow them all with Owen.

Beyonder was furious in many occasions and still wasn't all out, for example, he struggled with X-men when he was furious, he could just finish them in one microsecond blow, but he didn't because he's used to hold up.

Beyonder also was crushed, smashed, for several panels when he went to talk to Hulk, it's the same situation vs Owen, he was furious and wanted to talk not hurt anyone yet, but the Hulk kept hitting him for a long time, Beyonder could have stopped him anytime but he didn't untill he got bored of his hitting. are you now telling me that Hulk can stand to Beyonder for a long time? of course not. it's the same with Owen.

and the "oww" thing means nothing, because Beyonder is used to be crushed, smashed, and just hold himself. and it was 2 attacks only not 3.

"I transact on power levels unimaginable to you, Captain America, and the Beyonder, it seems, on levels unimaginable to me!"

Owen in this sentence was talking about power level, and he clearly stated that Beyonder level of power is above his imagination. why do you think Jim Shooter will chose a sentence where there is comparison between Cap/MM and MM/Beyonder if not to make the reader comprehend the huge difference in power between Owen and Beyonder? it's very clear and any reader will have the same comprehension as i do. well,... most of them.

Jim had to give Heroes a way of show off against Beyonder after being humiliated in many issues. and it was story plot reason that he has to do to finish Beyonder's story. but at the end of fight, Jim made that sentence "i transact... to me" to tell readers that there is no inconcistency, and that Beyonder is still vastly powerful compared to anyone else, like the readers were used to in all earlier issues.

"i'll use every bit of energy i can muster to form an impenetrable force-dome"

"sorry to burst your bubble"

"all of the energy in the multiverse wouldn't be enough! there is no way i can make a dome strong enough"

"millions of times more than all the rest of the power of the multiverse combined"

"I transact on power levels unimaginable to you, Captain America, and the Beyonder, it seems, on levels unimaginable to me!"

all those quotes in several scenes prove Beyonder is vastly superior to Molecule Man. chosing one scene where the writer is obliged to finish Beyonder's story and say because of this scene, Owen is close to Beyonder's level, makes no sense, and creates inconcistencies, which is illogical.

the logical way of thinking is to find the best explanation that provide lesser inconcistency with the story. if you find you're way of thinking cause inconcistencies in the story, and there is better ways of thinking that provide a clear and consistent story, then logically your way of thinking is wrong. this is one of the basics of logical and successful thinking.

#44 Edited by Omniscience (294 posts) - - Show Bio

Warning: Comments in this thread way too long!

Omniscience.

#45 Posted by Owie (3734 posts) - - Show Bio
@All_Mighty_Beyonder
I just don’t find myself persuaded by your reading of the text—not just the logic of your arguments, but just your feel of the art/story.  I don’t get the same feel from it at all.  What about this picture makes you feel that the Beyonder is somehow acting like an adult batting away a baby?
 
 

Look at the expression and body language, even if you’re going to ignore the fact that he would obviously want this battle to end as quickly as possible, and yet it takes a while for him to win.  Look at how he’s standing, legs braced, face angry and set, arms out aggressively.  They set up the Beyonder and Owen symmetrically here, in mirror images, to reinforce the idea that they’re both approaching the battle with the same mindset, like two gunslingers in a showdown.  Of course, Owen eventually gets beaten very clearly.  But at the beginning, the Beyonder really has to position himself in a serious way.  This is a confrontational pose.  An aggressive pose.  A pose where you fight someone who is fighting you back in a serious way, and so you have to take him seriously, where you have to match what he is doing, and more.  It is not a pose where you are infinitely above the other guy, where he’s nothing to you.
 
If he just wanted to “hold them back and explain,” like you said, he would.  But after he beats down the other heroes, he only tries this for a second, saying "listen to me" right as he and Owie come together.  Then he and Owie get right to clashing, and he wasn’t doing any holding back, he was attacking—and he didn’t say anything at all at that point—he was hardly trying to convince him any more.  Even the word “clash” that they use is indicative of the kind of fight it is.  You don’t use the word “clash” when one guy is patiently holding back and easily keeping the other guy at bay.

I should also point out that in the epilog in Avengers 266, Cap says “the Molecule Man took him on alone!  Even though the Beyonder was near-omnipotent, the Molecule Man held his own—at least long enough for us to get to our feet!”  This is clearly an editorial recap that is intended to give the correct tenor to the scene—the correct way to read it.  It clearly implies that the Beyonder was far more powerful than the Molecule Man, as I’ve been saying all along, but also that the Molecule Man was able to fight back and temporarily hold his own.  Are the Beyonder’s power levels beyond Reece’s imagination? Yes.  Was he still capable of fighting back regardless? Yes.
 
Recap of saving heroes
 

Basically all the text and art in the final battle scene leads to the idea that they are fighting seriously.  But because that doesn’t fit in with a lot of the other parts of the story--I've been saying this all along--you’re coming up with an invented backstory to try to explain that inconsistency away.  Now if that explanation was supported by the story and art in this scene, then that would be fine.  Unfortunately, it is not supported by the story and art, so it’s actually more of a problem than a solution, which is pretty much the opposite of “logical and successful thinking.”  Me, I just read the comic and describe what I see, which I find is usually pretty successful.
 
Also, how can you possibly say that he is being “soft and kind” with them.  He blew all the heroes away!  And earlier, he sent the New Mutants up to fight them, showing he hardly had a personal problem controlling people.  Saying that he wants to stall Owie until Owie lets go of his anger—first, that’s not anything like what’s depicted in the scene.  Second, that’s completely out of character for the Beyonder: impatience is one of his main personality traits, he doesn’t have the patience or maturity to do something like that.
 
Later on, Reece is not imagining it when he says he's weakening him.  The Beyonder corroborates it seconds later.  The Beyonder then manages to get beyond that danger point, and knocks them all away, but he was in trouble for a second.  He says so himself.

And you still haven’t resolved how the earlier “control of all the atoms” story makes sense within your approach.  You’re acting like the final battle is the only time their relative power levels change, and so that one event can easily be explained away and there are no inconsistencies, but that’s not the case.  You can put all those quotes at the end and say they’re consistent with each other, and I’ll agree with you, because throughout much of the series they are presented as being dramatically far apart in power.  It just so happens that there are also other, contradictory situations as well.  Put all the consistent quotes together, and it will not surprisingly seem very consistent.  Put in some that are not, and all of a sudden it’s not so consistent.


One last thing, meaningless as it is:

Three blasts:
First blast: scan one, panel one. (“Zzrackt!”)
Second blast: scan two, panel one. (“Shrakk!”)
Third blast: scan two, panel two. (“Shrkoom!”)
 
 

Three separate panels, three separate sound effects, separate dialog in each panel, Beyonder is flailing back in different positions.  Seems like 3 separate blasts to me!  If you really wanna say that both blasts in the second scan are somehow just one long continuous blast, you go right ahead though.
#46 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

How did this get into Beyonder vs MM thread o_O

#47 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@LubeMan said:

MJJ is under LT, so, what does he bring?? I'm just trying to picture adding MJJ to this pic and what difference it would make??

A posh British accent , not sure if that counts :)

#48 Posted by LubeMan (1067 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@LubeMan said:

MJJ is under LT, so, what does he bring?? I'm just trying to picture adding MJJ to this pic and what difference it would make??

A posh British accent , not sure if that counts :)

While twirling his Dick Dastardly mustache, I can see it now :-)