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#1 Edited by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio

The Rules:

  1. Prep: None
  2. Morals: In character
  3. Location: Space (Image Universe)
  4. No BFR or multiverse-busting allowed.

Who wins and why?

#3 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Beyoder erases DC cause I dislike DC more. I win.

#4 Edited by JackKnight (2969 posts) - - Show Bio

These threads are against the rules!:

Do Not Use Unbeatable Characters

Simple rule and one that should be obvious as it falls under the spite thread rules, but I'll spell it out so everyone can see it. No more using omnipotent characters. By using characters like TOAA, Bugs Bunny (just cause the fact of his toonforce being ridiculous), Presence (or Over-Monitor whatever), MoM etc, we don't get debates. We get either a stalemate between omnipotent characters, which lacks a debate as they can't do anything to each other, or destroys any other character(s) even if you stack abstracts against them. If you can't feasibly beat a character then don't use it. If you see someone using essentially unbeatable characters like TOAA or ridiculous toonforce capabilities like Bugs Bunny, flag it. Even if the character is created and falls under the category, flag it. These threads offer nothing and clog up the forum.

And I think this thread has been done before which is also against the rules:

No Repeat Battles/Use the Search Function

We have a search function now which can be used to search for past battles, for more information on this please see the battle forum FAQ . If you want to see who would win a fight, check if we’ve already discussed it. If we have and you have something to say about the outcome that’s been reached, don’t be afraid to bump the thread, but don’t make a new one when one already exists. Our search tool should give you everything you need, but if for some reason it doesn’t, the recap thread is another place you can look for old fights and Google can be used to search CV. Dupe threads will be locked.

But if I had to say who wins, I'd say the Presence.

#5 Posted by Bossmonster (2167 posts) - - Show Bio

I personally do not know enough about The Presence.

#6 Posted by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio
#7 Posted by JackKnight (2969 posts) - - Show Bio
#8 Posted by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio
#9 Edited by dondave (34542 posts) - - Show Bio

These threads are against the rules!:

Do Not Use Unbeatable Characters

Simple rule and one that should be obvious as it falls under the spite thread rules, but I'll spell it out so everyone can see it. No more using omnipotent characters. By using characters like TOAA, Bugs Bunny (just cause the fact of his toonforce being ridiculous), Presence (or Over-Monitor whatever), MoM etc, we don't get debates. We get either a stalemate between omnipotent characters, which lacks a debate as they can't do anything to each other, or destroys any other character(s) even if you stack abstracts against them. If you can't feasibly beat a character then don't use it. If you see someone using essentially unbeatable characters like TOAA or ridiculous toonforce capabilities like Bugs Bunny, flag it. Even if the character is created and falls under the category, flag it. These threads offer nothing and clog up the forum.

And I think this thread has been done before which is also against the rules:

No Repeat Battles/Use the Search Function

We have a search function now which can be used to search for past battles, for more information on this please see the battle forum FAQ . If you want to see who would win a fight, check if we’ve already discussed it. If we have and you have something to say about the outcome that’s been reached, don’t be afraid to bump the thread, but don’t make a new one when one already exists. Our search tool should give you everything you need, but if for some reason it doesn’t, the recap thread is another place you can look for old fights and Google can be used to search CV. Dupe threads will be locked.

But if I had to say who wins, I'd say the Presence or a stalemate.

#10 Edited by SSJ4Hulk (194 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre Retcon Beyonder is one of the most powerfull charcters in fiction but not nr 1.

There are others above him,and Presence is one of them.

#11 Posted by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssj4hulk said:

Pre Retcon Beyonder is one of the most powerfull charcters in fiction but not nr 1.

There are others above him,and Presence is one of them.

Now we have a debate!

#12 Posted by Equonox (964 posts) - - Show Bio

Battles of omnipotent characters are boring, stale, and impossible to debate as the classic unstoppable force/immovable object paradox. This is lame.

#13 Posted by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio

@equonox said:

Battles of omnipotent characters are boring, stale, and impossible to debate as the classic unstoppable force/immovable object paradox. This is lame.

#14 Posted by SSJ4Hulk (194 posts) - - Show Bio

@carter_esque: There isn't much to debate here.Presence wins.

Presence is the god of DC Universe.There is only one being that can defeat him ( T0AA) and one being that can stalemate him ( Man of Miracles ).Beyonder,in my opinion is 4th most powerfull being in fiction,but compared to those 3 guys above him,he is out of his league.

#15 Posted by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssj4hulk said:

@carter_esque: There isn't much to debate here.Presence wins.

Presence is the god of DC Universe.There is only one being that can defeat him ( T0AA) and one being that can stalemate him ( Man of Miracles ).Beyonder,in my opinion is 4th most powerfull being in fiction,but compared to those 3 guys above him,he is out of his league.

I can't find out that much about the Presence for some reason.. besides the obvious, what are his feats?

#16 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio
#17 Posted by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio
#18 Edited by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer said:

you just posted one in your original post. That white ball the presence is holding, is the DCU.

Whoa F**k seriously??? Where is he in that scan? Limbo?

it's a place outside creation, the presence transports Elaine there, notice how the place creates itself while ellaine walks through it (lucifer 68)

the presence: "it's the whole of creation seen from the outside":

then the presence discussed whether he should destroy it or preserve it while consulting with elaine and lilith

#19 Posted by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio

@carter_esque said:

@rolldestroyer said:

you just posted one in your original post. That white ball the presence is holding, is the DCU.

Whoa F**k seriously??? Where is he in that scan? Limbo?

it's a place outside creation, the presence transports Elaine there, notice how the place creates itself while ellaine walks through it (lucifer 68)

the presence: "it's the whole of creation seen from the outside":

then the presence discussed whether he should destroy it or preserve it while consulting with elaine and lilith

Couldn't Beyonder do this exact same thing with the MCU if he so pleased or am I overestimating his power?

#20 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

Presence because he's God and would never be dumb enough to let a mere mortal steal his powers...

#21 Posted by Frocharocha (2222 posts) - - Show Bio

@equonox said:

Battles of omnipotent characters are boring, stale, and impossible to debate as the classic unstoppable force/immovable object paradox. This is lame.

The Presence is not Onipotent and neither Oniscient. There are higher entity's than him. That's for sure. he's just the highest authority around. He can be challenged by the GEB and The Primal Monitor. Beyonder is not also fully omnipotent, he was challenged and on top with The Molecule man with it's time.

The definition of Omnipotence is the ability to do the impossible and whatever you want no mater the circumstances. If an Omnipotent being created a rock he couldn't lift he would still be able and not able (at the same time) and thus proving his omnipotence.

#22 Edited by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@carter_esque:

the beyonder is literally the embodiment of a universe which dwarfs the mainstream multiverse, so he can do the same thing for the multiverse, but not all of marvel (since marvel is an omniverse).

#23 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

Presence is God in DCU which means he's omnipotent. GEB is closest we've seen to being his remote equal, his dark side and Primal Monitor is not more powerful then Presence.

#24 Posted by Bronze_Surfer (2966 posts) - - Show Bio

@vaeternus: If you have an equal than your not omnipotent. Being god in DCU means little. Beyonder is god in the beyond that does not mean he is truley omnipotent. Mepheisto is god in hades. Odin is god in asgard ect.

#25 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@bronze_surfer: GEB pre new 52 was said to be the only thing in DCU equal to presence as stalemate, and actually you can be omnipotent and have equals. Look at The Q Continuium in Star Trek, existed before time as they even stated in a few episodes as well as being omnipotent(being omnipotent has nothing to do with having equals or not). Being God in DCU means a lot actually and Beyonder wasn't god, he was from a different Universe of Beyonders and apparently stupid and unsure as he admitted he wanted to learn about humans and got fooled by Dr. Doom...Presence would never lose to Dr. Doom. Neither of which actual God would question since he already knows everything in this case(The Presence)

You're confusing "a god" with "God-God" Superman for example is considered a God of Men on Earth in several stories. In most cases it's nothing but a rank like Thor's case, Odin etc. But none of which compare to the actual God as in creator of everything...

Presence=Based on Actual Abrahamic God

Odin, Mepheisto =Gods of a planet or realm no where near God's power.

God>>>>>>minor god ranks of something

Seriously, anyone at this point who actually thinks Beyonder can beat Presence is a biased fanboy or simply ignorant to what Presence is.

#26 Edited by sangeethankunchan (120 posts) - - Show Bio

Presence wins

#27 Edited by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@vaeternus:

Many God (s) have been stated to exist in DC. For instance, Allah was referenced to exist in JLA annual #4, and there are half a dozen more creators/supreme beings that have been referenced. Presence is just the most popular one since he's common knowledge

#28 Posted by nickzambuto (12959 posts) - - Show Bio
#29 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer: Yes, but as far as the actual creator of the DCU clearly it's the Presence/God in terms of actual DC comics case. That's what I am saying. In the new 52 he's only appeared so far as I know in Phantom Stranger as a little dog form but admitted he created everything referred to as "The voice"

#30 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer: Yes, but as far as the actual creator of the DCU clearly it's the Presence/God in terms of actual DC comics case. That's what I am saying. In the new 52 he's only appeared so far as I know in Phantom Stranger as a little dog form but admitted he created everything referred to as "The voice"

Allah was also stated to be the creator

here iblis (the devil) mentions that he defied the power of the creator (Allah, he referenced him earlier in the issue) JLA annual #4

like i said, presence is common knowledge, i have several more examples.

#31 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17004 posts) - - Show Bio

PR Beyonder was beyond multiversal level, pretty much megaversal. Presence created 2 multiverses, yes? I don't see him winning with someone who can create/destroy many of them.

#32 Edited by Shawnbaby (10444 posts) - - Show Bio

@carter_esque:

Do Not Use Unbeatable Characters

Simple rule and one that should be obvious as it falls under the spite thread rules, but I'll spell it out so everyone can see it. No more using omnipotent characters. By using characters like TOAA, Bugs Bunny (just cause the fact of his toonforce being ridiculous), Presence (or Over-Monitor whatever), MoM etc, we don't get debates. We get either a stalemate between omnipotent characters, which lacks a debate as they can't do anything to each other, or destroys any other character(s) even if you stack abstracts against them. If you can't feasibly beat a character then don't use it. If you see someone using essentially unbeatable characters like TOAA or ridiculous toonforce capabilities like Bugs Bunny, flag it. Even if the character is created and falls under the category, flag it. These threads offer nothing and clog up the forum.

#33 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666:

first of all. DC was never originally a multiverse, it only became a multiverse as a result of krona's expermient.

in the Lucifer series it is stated that lucifer and michael created the universe, while in swamp thing series it stated that the voice (presence) is what brought the universe into existence.

#34 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer: Like I said, factually speaking Presence/The Voice IS the only creator of the DCU. What you're posting are theories based off real life beliefs in DCU references stories such as allah which just means God anyway. But I'm referring to the factual creator of the DCU however which is the Presence. You've also proved my point for me referring to the Swamp Thing arch where it's stated the voice(presence) is what brought the universe into existence. Read Phantom Stranger, The voice/Presence confirms it when he's lecturing Phantom Stranger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presence_(DC_Comics)

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Presence_(New_Earth)

#35 Posted by Bo88gdan (4393 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre-Retcon Beyonder

#36 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer: Like I said, factually speaking Presence/The Voice IS the only creator of the DCU. what you're posting are theories based off real life beliefs in DCU references stories such as allah which just means God anyway. But I'm referring to the factual creator of the DCU however which is the Presence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presence_(DC_Comics)

ok, here's an example where a creator (unheard of) gives synnar the power with which he creates the DCU on panel, from rann/thanagar #6

i could continue with the examples if you want, i have several others.

#37 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio
#38 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@vaeternus:

im showing you on panel evidence while you're showing me a wiki that can be edited by anyone.

#39 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer: I linked you the DC wiki which is 100% accurate...your scan that's also from pre new 52 I believe which is technically irrelevant since things changed in the new 52, some things remained the same. Presence/The Voice appears to have remained the same however...

#40 Posted by dondave (34542 posts) - - Show Bio

@vaeternus:

im showing you on panel evidence while you're showing me a wiki that can be edited by anyone.

Couldn't it be that they are all the same person, but different religions have given them different names?

#41 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@rolldestroyer said:

@vaeternus:

im showing you on panel evidence while you're showing me a wiki that can be edited by anyone.

Couldn't it be that they are all the same person, but different religions have given them different names?

That's very possible, I'm just posting the fact that the creator of the DCU is the presence/voice. I'm not sure what rolldestroyer is trying to prove that God goes by various names? Cause I'm not disputing that, just posting the actual creator of the DCU in comicbook terms. Know what I mean?

#42 Posted by Shawnbaby (10444 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer: I linked you the DC wiki which is 100% accurate...your scan that's also from pre new 52 I believe which is technically irrelevant since things changed in the new 52, some things remained the same. Presence/The Voice appears to have remained the same however...

No wiki is 100% accurate.

#43 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio
#44 Posted by Bronze_Surfer (2966 posts) - - Show Bio

@vaeternus: A wiki can be changed by anyone. I could go onto Thors page and give him the power to always beat hulk

#45 Edited by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@vaeternus said:

@rolldestroyer: I linked you the DC wiki which is 100% accurate...your scan that's also from pre new 52 I believe which is technically irrelevant since things changed in the new 52, some things remained the same. Presence/The Voice appears to have remained the same however...

http://marvel.wikia.com/Help:How_to_Edit

it can be edited by anyone

the cosmology in new 52 hasn't changed, and the voice being the creator isn't exactly news, since he was stated to be the creator in pre 52, swamp thing v2 #166

what im trying to say is that there is no certain creator for DC.

@dondave said:

@rolldestroyer said:

@vaeternus:

im showing you on panel evidence while you're showing me a wiki that can be edited by anyone.

Couldn't it be that they are all the same person, but different religions have given them different names?

that's possible, especially considering that Michael demiurgos was stated to be known as Kali in the hindu religions. But that would be a speculation.

On the other hand we have vertigo encyncopedia which clearly differentiates between Yahweh (presence) and Preacher's God, both of whom are stated to be the creators of the universe.

presence/yahweh:

Preacher's God:

2 different people, both stated to be creators of the universe.

so it's unclear who is the true creator. That's all im saying.

#46 Posted by Bronze_Surfer (2966 posts) - - Show Bio

@vaeternus: You also realize that the presence himself has stated that he was shaped by outside forces.

#47 Edited by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer: I never said the voice was a new concept in the new 52, I said he's so far been referred to as "The Voice" in the form of a scottish terrier in the new 52 but is obviously still the presence/god, who created everything being my point. Sounds like it's all semantics you're referring to honestly, I'm just listing who created the DCU factually speaking via comicbook terms. I'm not debating nor disputing the many names God is referred to in comics based off real life however.

@bronze_surfer: Again, the dc wiki and comicvine wiki clearly match. We know wiki's can be edited for everything and anything, but that doesn't mean there aren't logical people out there who do update them with facts. That still don't prove that I'm wrong by stating Presence created the DCU which is obvious.

Just read the scans on the wiki's and comicvine's bio it even says "He created everything" the glowing white ball is the DCU...

That scan is pre 52, old and also unproven meaning there was never anything we've seen that proved to be more powerful then the presence therefore so long as we know, Presence is the most powerful thing in DCU...

#48 Posted by Frocharocha (2222 posts) - - Show Bio

@vaeternus: You also realize that the presence himself has stated that he was shaped by outside forces.

I believe that The presence is part of a greater being who splited himself into more than three parts. The presence being the reprsentation of Good and Creation, GEB being the representation of destruction and chaos and The primal Monitor being the representation of control and power. This would explain how The presence became one with GEB.

#49 Posted by Bronze_Surfer (2966 posts) - - Show Bio

@vaeternus: He himself stated it. If he is supposed to be INFINITE and ETERNAL you don't need proof. He himself said it. Also Pre 52 should not matter for the prescence if he is omnipotent. And if we want to be exact the Prescence is not even god anymore it's Ellane Belloc

#50 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio