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#1 Posted by Hemlin (377 posts) - - Show Bio


#2 Posted by beautifulrevery (1521 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanos with HOTU literally=TOAA. He takes this

#3 Posted by Glitch_in_the_System (90 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer gets roflstomped by either of them, then Beyonder and Thanos stalemate each other until Beyonder gets retconned.  :p

#4 Posted by RoyHarperBLOW (1500 posts) - - Show Bio

@beautifulrevery: That is debatable because it is unclear if the HOTU is TOAA's true power.

#5 Posted by Onemoreposter (4101 posts) - - Show Bio

Gonna go with Pre-Retcon Beyonder

#6 Posted by Deadgod (1500 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre-Retcon Beyonder is the strongest here , he was basically the original TOAA before he got retconned , HOTU made Thanos second to TOAA & he was still manipulated by TOAA during the events of HOTU

#7 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

PR Beyonder.

#8 Posted by Hemlin (377 posts) - - Show Bio

@Deadgod: I feel sorry for poor Lucifer...everyone seems to have forgotten that he tanked a Big Bang that would've busted a multiverse

#9 Posted by Bo88gdan (4676 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre Retcon Beyonder>Thanos with Hotu>Lucifer Morningstar

#10 Posted by xeon1cs (1481 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hemlin said:

@Deadgod: I feel sorry for poor Lucifer...everyone seems to have forgotten that he tanked a Big Bang that would've busted a multiverse

Eh. Isn't that a little different though? Lucifer used the Dunamis Demiurgos to create his multiverse. That was a controlled scenario.

Still though, he's up there in power, just...probably not on the level of PR-Beyonder or HOTU-Thanos.

#11 Posted by Rumble Man (11073 posts) - - Show Bio

SA superman got retconned once

Beyonder got retconned twice or thrice

#12 Posted by Killemall (18607 posts) - - Show Bio

I honestly dont see why people think PR Beyonder is more powerul than Thanos with HOTU. One had problem trying to kill death, the other easily absorbed and killed eternity, infinity and living tribunal together. Thanos in less number of issues just has as good a feat as PR Beyonder.

#13 Posted by Living_Monstrosity (437 posts) - - Show Bio

HOTI > PR Beyonder >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lucifer Morningstar

#14 Posted by ShootingNova (19161 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre-retcon Beyonder was almost omnipotent. Thanos with the HotU has destroyed a Celestial, absorbed every Marvel hero, and then subsequently Eternity, Infinity, and the Living Tribunal. This much closer, but Lucifer Morningstar gets curbstomped.

@beautifulrevery said:

Thanos with HOTU literally=TOAA. He takes this

Not even remotely true. TOAA is Stan Lee (and arguably Jack Kirby also). He is actually omnipotent, and can simply erase all. Thanos with HotU was very powerful, but the Living Tribunal, Eternity and Infinity managed to last for some time before being completely absorbed into his consciousness.

@Hemlin said:

@Deadgod: I feel sorry for poor Lucifer...everyone seems to have forgotten that he tanked a Big Bang that would've busted a multiverse

Which means nothing. Tanking a multiversal attack without flinching is certainly impressive, but a multiversal assault is seemingly nothing compared to either of these two.

@Deadgod said:

Pre-Retcon Beyonder is the strongest here , he was basically the original TOAA before he got retconned , HOTU made Thanos second to TOAA & he was still manipulated by TOAA during the events of HOTU

LOL, neither of these were TOAA. No, PR Beyonder wasn't TOAA.

@Killemall said:

I honestly dont see why people think PR Beyonder is more powerul than Thanos with HOTU. One had problem trying to kill death, the other easily absorbed and killed eternity, infinity and living tribunal together. Thanos in less number of issues just has as good a feat as PR Beyonder.

I thought it was because PR Beyonder's realm/power or something made the multiverse look like a drop in a sea compared to it? Although I can see your point. The Living Tribunal alone exists in all multiverses simultaneously, already fairly close to the Beyonder's power. Adding Eternity and Infinity in could mean something, but they managed to resist Thanos for some time, while Eternity and Infinity are multiversal at best.

#15 Posted by Killemall (18607 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

I thought it was because PR Beyonder's realm/power or something made the multiverse look like a drop in a sea compared to it? Although I can see your point. The Living Tribunal alone exists in all multiverses simultaneously, already fairly close to the Beyonder's power. Adding Eternity and Infinity in could mean something, but they managed to resist Thanos for some time, while Eternity and Infinity are multiversal at best.

Well yes it was said thus but i dont see how that changed anything when Thanos in one attempt absorbed everything including heroes, abstracts and LT, with lot less effort than what it took Beyonder to kill Lady Death, and he didnt even looked particularly stressed.

I honestly think Thanos looked a lot more impressive, at least to me.

#16 Posted by ShootingNova (19161 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: The Living Tribunal, Eternity and Infinity lasted for some time:

At least they resisted for "longer than the rest".

#17 Posted by PlasticBag (1222 posts) - - Show Bio

@Bo88gdan said:

Pre Retcon Beyonder>Thanos with Hotu>Lucifer Morningstar

#18 Posted by kcaz (1371 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanos w/ HotU stomps LT. PR Beyonder is not taking this battle

#19 Posted by logy5000 (6167 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@Killemall: The Living Tribunal, Eternity and Infinity lasted for some time:

At least they resisted for "longer than the rest".

Just wondering, why is it that LT's 1st face appears to be in pain, but the face on the side of his head looks perfectly normal?

#20 Posted by ShootingNova (19161 posts) - - Show Bio

@logy5000: You can't see it well enough to say it's totally normal. And really, nobody has the answers to that.

Regardless, HotU Thanos overpowered everything the Tribunal threw at him (all Marvel heroes), and then the Tribunal himself (plus Eternity and Infinity).

#21 Posted by AssertingValor (5474 posts) - - Show Bio

Wasn't the HOTU suposed to be all the power in one universe?

#22 Posted by logy5000 (6167 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@logy5000: You can't see it well enough to say it's totally normal. And really, nobody has the answers to that.

Regardless, HotU Thanos overpowered everything the Tribunal threw at him (all Marvel heroes), and then the Tribunal himself (plus Eternity and Infinity).

I never said otherwise.

#23 Posted by RoyHarperBLOW (1500 posts) - - Show Bio

I love Lucy but sadly he is outclassed here and since HOTU is part of the power of TOAA my vote went to thanos.

#24 Posted by girugamesh (439 posts) - - Show Bio

Still say Pre-retcon Beyonder.

Who the hell voted for Lucifer Morningstar? He isn't anywhere near the other two.

#25 Posted by justleader (1708 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre Retcon Beyonder, probably in a stomp

#26 Posted by Omniscience (327 posts) - - Show Bio

Such a difficult decision... until I saw Pre Ret-Con Beyonder. lol

#27 Posted by Prince_RehteStroC (137 posts) - - Show Bio

@Living_Monstrosity said:

HOTI > PR Beyonder >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lucifer Morningstar
#28 Posted by Sethlol (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

@Bo88gdan said:

Pre Retcon Beyonder>Thanos with Hotu>Lucifer Morningstar

#29 Posted by Sniber (317 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@logy5000: You can't see it well enough to say it's totally normal. And really, nobody has the answers to that.

Regardless, HotU Thanos overpowered everything the Tribunal threw at him (all Marvel heroes), and then the Tribunal himself (plus Eternity and Infinity).

Thanos is omniversal BUT Beyonder is beyond anything and everything EVEN beyond omniversal level

#30 Posted by logy5000 (6167 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sniber: I'd say that HOTU would be more like megaversal level. Not quite omniversal.

#31 Posted by Sniber (317 posts) - - Show Bio

O.K. O.K. why are you arguying if you agree that beyonder wins

#32 Posted by Killemall (18607 posts) - - Show Bio

@logy5000 said:

@Sniber: I'd say that HOTU would be more like megaversal level. Not quite omniversal.

Thanos with HOTU has outperformed PR Beyonder, so saying one's beyond omniversal and the other is merely omniversal is just flat out incorrect.

Not to mention neither of their power are omniversal to begin with.

@Sniber said:

O.K. O.K. why are you arguying if you agree that beyonder wins

Because he never admitted Beyonder would in, and Beyonder should NOT win given Thanos has outperformed twice during the series.

1. Beyonder had to use a major portion of his powers to kill Lady Death , even then he did not do so with a direct attack but by pouring his energies in a cup which he made Lady Death drink. In comparison Thanos once angered easily absorbed and killed every abstract in Marvel universe, Living Tribunal included.

2. Beyonder himself stated he did not have the power to resurrect Lady Death but could only transform someone else into Lady Death which he uses a fellow friend to do so. In comparision Thanos resurrect the entire universe, with all the abstracted , LT included.

These two feat should clearly show Thanos with HOTU is superior. So if you have a feat to show how Beyonder has even once outperformed Thanos, lets hear it.

#33 Edited by ShootingNova (19161 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sniber: Omniversal....... not quite. Megaversal, since he could be compared to a "multi-multi-multiverse", or whatever. Beyonder "beyond" the Omniverse makes no sense. You can't have "Beyond the Omniverse" in Marvel.

@Killemall said:

In comparison Thanos once angered easily absorbed and killed every abstract in Marvel universe, Living Tribunal included.

Minus TOAA and the Fulcrum.

#34 Posted by jobbernos (1420 posts) - - Show Bio

lucifer or beyonder... jobbernos is a non factor

#35 Posted by ShootingNova (19161 posts) - - Show Bio

@jobbernos said:

lucifer or beyonder... jobbernos is a non factor

Seriously? Thanos being a non-factor?

#36 Posted by kikomia (82 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm pretty sure Thanos with the Heart of the Universe is stronger than Pre-retcon Beyonder.

Lucifer is a non-factor.

#37 Posted by Sniber (317 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@Sniber: Omniversal....... not quite. Megaversal, since he could be compared to a "multi-multi-multiverse", or whatever. Beyonder "beyond" the Omniverse makes no sense. You can't have "Beyond the Omniverse" in Marvel.

@Killemall said:

In comparison Thanos once angered easily absorbed and killed every abstract in Marvel universe, Living Tribunal included.

Minus TOAA and the Fulcrum.

yes I can have "beyond the omniverse". beyonder is said to be beyond all realities and "all realities" is just another phrase for "omniverse"

#38 Posted by TifaLockhart (14167 posts) - - Show Bio

I voted Thanos with the Heart of the Universe. No, I cannot prove it. Omnipotence is hard to prove.

#39 Posted by Killemall (18607 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

Minus TOAA and the Fulcrum.

When did either TOAA or Fulcrum become abstract in marvel o_O

They are supreme beings.

@Sniber said:

yes I can have "beyond the omniverse". beyonder is said to be beyond all realities and "all realities" is just another phrase for "omniverse"

Reality = universe. Also the very defination of omniverse means it includes "everything", that also includes TOAA and Beyonder himself. So he is beyond an assemblage of a group of power house, including TOAA and himself??

#40 Posted by Sniber (317 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@logy5000 said:

@Sniber: I'd say that HOTU would be more like megaversal level. Not quite omniversal.

Thanos with HOTU has outperformed PR Beyonder, so saying one's beyond omniversal and the other is merely omniversal is just flat out incorrect.

Not to mention neither of their power are omniversal to begin with.

@Sniber said:

O.K. O.K. why are you arguying if you agree that beyonder wins

Because he never admitted Beyonder would in, and Beyonder should NOT win given Thanos has outperformed twice during the series.

1. Beyonder had to use a major portion of his powers to kill Lady Death , even then he did not do so with a direct attack but by pouring his energies in a cup which he made Lady Death drink. In comparison Thanos once angered easily absorbed and killed every abstract in Marvel universe, Living Tribunal included.

2. Beyonder himself stated he did not have the power to resurrect Lady Death but could only transform someone else into Lady Death which he uses a fellow friend to do so. In comparision Thanos resurrect the entire universe, with all the abstracted , LT included.

These two feat should clearly show Thanos with HOTU is superior. So if you have a feat to show how Beyonder has even once outperformed Thanos, lets hear it.

1. may be beyonder did not wanted to finish the battle simply or quickly. may be he wanted to show his strength

2. more resurrection power do not states that hotu have more devastating power also. In fight between thanos and beyonder they do naot have to resurrect anything. they only have to destroy each other

#41 Posted by Sniber (317 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@ShootingNova said:

Minus TOAA and the Fulcrum.

When did either TOAA or Fulcrum become abstract in marvel o_O

They are supreme beings.

@Sniber said:

yes I can have "beyond the omniverse". beyonder is said to be beyond all realities and "all realities" is just another phrase for "omniverse"

Reality = universe. Also the very defination of omniverse means it includes "everything", that also includes TOAA and Beyonder himself. So he is beyond an assemblage of a group of power house, including TOAA and himself??

I read all that in marvel wikipedia. and marvel omniverse do not include complete TOAA. he is even beyond that. he is representation of a real man

#42 Posted by Killemall (18607 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sniber said:

1. may be beyonder did not wanted to finish the battle simply or quickly. may be he wanted to show his strength

So to show his strength, instead of straight up kill her, me made her drink from a cup that had major portion of his own powers? That doesnt quite seem right. Would you happen to have any shred of evidence to suggest or back it up?

2. more resurrection power do not states that hotu have more devastating power also. In fight between thanos and beyonder they do naot have to resurrect anything. they only have to destroy each other

You mis-understand. Point was Thanos with HOTU did something Beyonder himself said he couldnt do (i.e. re-resurrect Lady Death) in a much grander scale (resurrect all abstracts, including LT). That shows who was more powerful.

The problem with underlined part is, neither have been defeated unless a plot is involved , nor have either of them even been harmed. Beyonder got killed because he wanted to be mortal, Thanos died because in writing the wrong in the universe, he himself was accounted as a "wrong" because he was unfairly resurrected to being with, and when he repaired the universe he just ceased to exist.

Point i am trying to make is, Thanos with HOTU which lasted only 2 and a few pages vs Beyonder who lasted 2 series still Thanos has better feats.

Whats to say Thanos cant simply absorb Beyonder power like Dr. Doom did? After all if he can absorb and contain HOTU, its reasonable to assume he could contain Beyonder's power as well.

Point was, one has 2 direct instances of outperforming the other, so unless Beyonder has somewhere outperformed Thanos or has a feat that Thanos cannot reasonably expected to match than we would say Beyonder is more powerful.

#43 Posted by Sniber (317 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@Sniber said:

1. may be beyonder did not wanted to finish the battle simply or quickly. may be he wanted to show his strength

So to show his strength, instead of straight up kill her, me made her drink from a cup that had major portion of his own powers? That doesnt quite seem right. Would you happen to have any shred of evidence to suggest or back it up?

2. more resurrection power do not states that hotu have more devastating power also. In fight between thanos and beyonder they do naot have to resurrect anything. they only have to destroy each other

You mis-understand. Point was Thanos with HOTU did something Beyonder himself said he couldnt do (i.e. re-resurrect Lady Death) in a much grander scale (resurrect all abstracts, including LT). That shows who was more powerful.

The problem with underlined part is, neither have been defeated unless a plot is involved , nor have either of them even been harmed. Beyonder got killed because he wanted to be mortal, Thanos died because in writing the wrong in the universe, he himself was accounted as a "wrong" because he was unfairly resurrected to being with, and when he repaired the universe he just ceased to exist.

Point i am trying to make is, Thanos with HOTU which lasted only 2 and a few pages vs Beyonder who lasted 2 series still Thanos has better feats.

Whats to say Thanos cant simply absorb Beyonder power like Dr. Doom did? After all if he can absorb and contain HOTU, its reasonable to assume he could contain Beyonder's power as well.

Point was, one has 2 direct instances of outperforming the other, so unless Beyonder has somewhere outperformed Thanos or has a feat that Thanos cannot reasonably expected to match than we would say Beyonder is more powerful.

For that we have to wait for incoming comics

#44 Posted by Killemall (18607 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sniber said:

I read all that in marvel wikipedia. and marvel omniverse do not include complete TOAA. he is even beyond that. he is representation of a real man

Ok LOL on that part. So you are debating with me based on what you read on wikipedia, which can be edited by anyone? Thats the weakest possible explanation that you can come up with.

Furthermore, thats not even true.

http://marvel.wikia.com/One-Above-All_(Multiverse)

Thats you marvel wiki link, could you tell me which line does it exactly say TOAA is beyond Omniverse? I for one am really interested.

#45 Posted by Killemall (18607 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sniber said:

For that we have to wait for incoming comics

O_O wait what?

#46 Edited by P0rtal (872 posts) - - Show Bio

@Deadgod said:

Pre-Retcon Beyonder is the strongest here , he was basically the original TOAA before he got retconned , HOTU made Thanos second to TOAA & he was still manipulated by TOAA during the events of HOTU

No he wasn't. HOTU absorbed everything there is excluding TOAA itself. Beyonder was never once proven to be able to destroy all there is, just billions and trillions of realities. There could be an infinite number of realities in the marvel universe, all of them were absorbed by Thanos.

HOTU > PreRetCon Beyonder = Lucifer.

#47 Posted by Sniber (317 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@Sniber said:

For that we have to wait for incoming comics

O_O wait what?

ok leave that topic. it have no ending. do you know character spirit of the jewel. is she moe powerful than wpotc. send me a pm to answer that since it is out of topic of this thread

#48 Posted by Killemall (18607 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sniber said:

ok leave that topic. it have no ending. do you know character spirit of the jewel. is she moe powerful than wpotc. send me a pm to answer that since it is out of topic of this thread

Sure no problem.

Spirit of Jewel as in Tarene from Earth 3515? She doesnt have feat like at all.

Tarene before she fully merged into Spirit of Jewel, or the term more often used was The Designate , her best feat includes being able to kill Surtur chanelling the power of Odin. In The Regning, where she appears as the spirit form (and jewel seem to represent the locket she gave Desaak) , all she did was resurrect Desaak, gave her the jewel which protects him from Odin Force, and finally got him to meld with Destroyer Armor.

Even if we argue potential, all Tarene was destined to do was evolve beyond Gods (Asgardians) and like men are influenced by gods, she was suppose to influence them. Thats not really a lot of power.

Various Incarnation of Phoenix have shown various power level, Rachel with green phoenix manage to beat a hungry Galactus and we know White Phoenix Of the Crown is supposed to be more powerful. That being said apart from being able to affect the universe she herself has no feats.

So in short neither have a lot of feat, but at least White Phoenix has a feat Tarene cant resonably be expected to match making her more powerful, and inferior avatar of Phoenix has much better feats than Tarene.

If you wanna know more about Tarene, i would recommend two series: Thor: Lord of Asgard, and The Regining.

If you wanna know more about White Phoenix, since he has only one series it would be Here Comes Tomorrow.

If you want to know more about generic Phoenix, series i would recommend would be Dark Phoenix Saga and Phoenix: Endsong.

Hope this helps.

#49 Posted by LONGTIME (923 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate.

#50 Posted by ShootingNova (19161 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

When did either TOAA or Fulcrum become abstract in marvel o_O

They are supreme beings.

I thought it was said somewhere that TOAA was the most powerful abstracts.....?