Pre Retcon Beyonder vs Lucifer with Demiurgic Power

No outsmarting in this fight
Just pure power battle

stalemate.

Lucifer's only real advantage is his intelligence. It may be enough to win this. 

" Lucifer's only real advantage is his intelligence. It may be enough to win this.  "

" @CosmicSpiral said:

" Lucifer's only real advantage is his intelligence. It may be enough to win this.  "

Without a doubt his cunning and trickery has him the win Beyonder ain't to bright Boom Boom made him look like a stooge "

" @Son_of_Magnus said:

" @CosmicSpiral said:

" Lucifer's only real advantage is his intelligence. It may be enough to win this.  "

Without a doubt his cunning and trickery has him the win Beyonder ain't to bright Boom Boom made him look like a stooge "

Apparently some people did not read that intelligence was not a factor in this, only power levels "

Then it's a tie. They are both omnipotent. 
 
@Son_of_Magnus said:

" @CosmicSpiral: BTW sick avatar "

Well Lucider is the Devil...

"Well Lucider is the Devil... "

"Pre-Retcon Beyonder's willpower is the only thing that leaves him somewhat vulnerable. Otherwise, there isn't a single character that could manage to defeat him. "

" @OblivionKnight: Was?...oh yeah..."

" @Son_of_Magnus said:

" @CosmicSpiral said:

" Lucifer's only real advantage is his intelligence. It may be enough to win this.  "

Without a doubt his cunning and trickery has him the win Beyonder ain't to bright Boom Boom made him look like a stooge "

Apparently some people did not read that intelligence was not a factor in this, only power levels"

" Well Lucider is the Devil... "

" @Primmaster64 said:

" Well Lucider is the Devil... "

He is not. He never was. That was the First of the Fallen. "

" @Morpheus_ said:

" @Primmaster64 said:

" Well Lucider is the Devil... "

He is not. He never was. That was the First of the Fallen. "

yes he wasn't the devil.. he was a fallen angel.. devils are beings of pure evil, the fallen ones are just angels gone bad.. "

Lucifer with the demiurge power is pretty much equal to God. Stalemate.

Beyonder still wins !

"Beyonder still wins.....because Beyonder >> The Presence "

"@Morpheus_ said:

" @Primmaster64 said:

" Well Lucider is the Devil... "

He is not. He never was. That was the First of the Fallen. "

yes he wasn't the devil.. he was a fallen angel.. devils are beings of pure evil, the fallen ones are just angels gone bad.. "

Beyonder

Did Lucifer ever have demiurgic power or is this just a thread factor? Like saying "Wolverine with the HOTU"?

"Did Lucifer ever have demiurgic power or is this just a thread factor? Like saying "Wolverine with the HOTU"? "

" @spawn devil said:

"Did Lucifer ever have demiurgic power or is this just a thread factor? Like saying "Wolverine with the HOTU"? "

Thread Factor. "

" @spawn devil:  lucifer had the  demiurgic power "

Some people here need a Lucifer lesson... If I remember correctly most people when they use him in threads they assume he already has the Demiurgic power, as with it he's essentially Living Tribunal's equal in power and function in Marvel. Without it, he simply has limitless (Except exceeding The Presence's) manipulation, but zero creation. Is this alone enough to make him LT-level, at least in terms of raw power?

Anyway I'd say Lucifer possibly loses here if he can't use his smarts according to OP. In a straight-up power fight PR Beyonder probably has more raw power.

Beyonder wins though Lucifer with the Demiurgic would make this a harder fight for the Beyonder but still a win for the Beyonder in the end.

Beyonder easily.

Lucifer is omnipotent with Michaels power so unless Beyonder is at his omnipotnet state his losing this.

Yes... well, I remember a scan where classic Doctor Strange was toying with PRB. lol

Anyhow, since smarts out of the pic here, PRB wins.

@retconcrisis: The only problem is with the overall level of the character versus omnipotency. Marvelverse has many omnipotent beings. After being taken the god status from him, PRB remains the closest thing to ToAA, but by just a bit. Lucifer is no doubt strong, but his level of all-powerfullness falls short of PRB. Someone of relative power, Mephisto got owned bad by PRB.

Are you referring to the instance where Strange was having an internal debate about imprisoning a depowered, drunk off his ass Beyonder?

That's the closest thing I can think of to what you're talking about.

@juiceboks: probably yes. i remember him drunk...

Beyonder had omniscience..........

@god_spawn

@beyondergod: Beyonder does not have omniscience. Have you ever read Secret Wars? He had to learn what good and evil was. He didn't even know what human emotions were. He had his power drained by Dr. Doom. He was almost bested by PR Molecule Man. The Beyonder has never been anywhere close to omniscient in the Marvel Multiverse. He has never been anywhere close to omnipotent either. After he killed Death, he was weakened so clearly he doesn't have infinite power. Plus the fact that he couldn't beat PR Molecule Man.

Lucifer Morningstar with the Demiurge power is God(hypothetical). He is omnipotent. Therefore he automatically wins against anyone other than TOAA or The Presence.

Also just in response to an earlier comment. The Presence and TOAA are equal. The Over Monitor is the canvas that comics are written on. So if you take things from DC's perspective, every single comic book franchise, every anime, etc is on the Over Monitor. But obviously within the different comic book franchices there are supreme beings such as The Presence and TOAA.

Ahhh the classic “second to God” argument for almost every other DC character nowadays.

Do you even know what’s the meaning of Omnipotence?? And do you even know what’s Demuirge before you input your headcanon? Jesus.

@revold: Demiurge is a concept in Gnosticism, which alludes to a Creator God to the Material Universe or Fallen Creation who isn't really Supreme, but is second or inferior to the real Supreme One. IIRC

It's the idea that the Creator God, isn't really the Top Dog. And that the Creator God is the bad guy.

In some beliefs, the Demiurge is sometimes seen as second to the Supreme God, or several layers of power below the Supreme God. And it depends on context.

(in Gnosticism and other theological systems) a heavenly being, subordinate to the Supreme Being, that is considered to be the controller of the material world and antagonistic to all that is purely spiritual.

In DC, as with the case of both Synnar and Michael who were both the Presence's Demiurge at one point, it is used in context to imply they are second to Omnipotence or second to the Presence, involved with much of Creation as intermediaries without necessarily being #1 god.

@revold:

Ahhh the classic “second to God” argument for almost every other DC character nowadays.

Do you even know what’s the meaning of Omnipotence?? And do you even know what’s Demuirge before you input your headcanon? Jesus.

I'll go through it step by step for you. Michael has unlimited power, and Lucifer has unlimited ability to do whatever he wants with Michael's power. Lucifer with unlimited power(Michaels' ability), plus his own ability of unlimited reality warping is omnipotence. He can do absolutely anything, which defines omnipotence...

In fact, a quick google search shows the definition of Omnipotence: almighty or infinite in power

"Demiurge" is what Michael's power is. He can create or erase anything, even the universe/multiverse itself. So exactly what does the word "demiurge" have to do with any of this?

So with that all said, you clearly don't know what omnipotence means yourself, and you added in that random "Demiurge" word to try and somehow validate what you said? I don't know but you're not making any sense.

lúcifer

Like Presence and AAO Pre Retcon Beyonder is the Supreme Being of his respective multiverse who invaded Marvel and became it's Supreme Being during the Secret Wars saga. Lucifier is not the Supreme Being of his respective multiverse.

PR B wins