Half of these people are irrelevant because their power levels overlap so much. He stomps. The only even remote threat was the Living Tribunal and...
Seeing as how the only being event remotely close to his power, lost and incidentally is not in this battle. PR Beyonder. And for future reference these battles should be considered spite.
@killemall said:
@bronze_surfer: Furthermore, Thanos defeated / killed LT a lot easier than Beyonder killed Death, unlike Beyonder Thanos was never said to have been weakened.
Hey there good friends, hope yall had a great weekend.
Beyonder was "weakened?" ... oh, you mean when he stated that senselessness about himself? That silly Beyonder playing the fool.
Actually friends, the Beyonder had limited himself greatly as we all know.
There wasn't any limitations except for the one he himself imposed.
Death was erased, then re-created just as easily ... even under the blanket of his self-imposed limitation.
As for Miss Death ... she fears Beyonder ...
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15472755/B.jpg.html
... just like the Living Tribunal & all the Multiverse:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15472758/B3.jpg.html
Which is why the Living Tribunal didn't dare raise a finger to Beyonder, yet, he disrespected Thanos and attacked him directly.
----------------------------------------------------
Btw, my friends, here's proof that the "enormous amount of energy"
Beyonder used to kill Miss Death,
was nothing more than a Fraction of his power:
lol, a "fraction" ... of his already self imposed limitations.
============================
Thanos/HOTI stalemates classic Beyonder ... everyone/thing else on the list is inconsequential.
Well since Mr. Master put in the scans i should do so as well, argument without scans feels a bit hollow.
Beyonder himself makes it pretty clearly killing Death is going to weaken him
"Once this is done, i wont have enough power to undo it! i cant bring her back!"
Beyonder also makes it clearly a LOT of his powers are being just merely to kill death
"Dave, a lot of my powers is in that cup"
Beyonder himself couldnt then kill anyone, or re-create the abstract, unless someone willing volunteered.
"I suppose i could try! Maybe if someone,
some sentient creature were willing.. worse.. to become death,
in a manner of speaking "
He was lucky he had a willing participant, and he did exactly what he said, killed the sentient creature who willing volunteered to become death and just like Beyonder explained "... from the seed of the first death, it's grim spectre would rise again!"
All of these are from Secret Wars 2 # 6.
As per the fraction of his power scan, which is from Secret Wars 2 # 7, apart from saying it was a fraction of his power Mephisto also says a machine that collects the same power and enough in it to potentially destroy Beyonder
"It has the power to cause his (Beyonder's) undoing and the sweet irony is that its power came from the Beyonder himself".
So we have :
1. Beyonder himself saying he put a LOT of his power to kill Lady Death
2. Mephisto saying the same power from Beyonder himself collected had potential to actually defeat Beyonder.
vs
1. A statement from Mephisto referring to that part of power as "so potenti is this fraction of his power that no vessel save the body of the beyonder himself can long contain it"
I think there is more evidence to suggest it was a huge portion of his powers rather than a mere fraction.
What on panel feat am i actually disagreeing with there Master??
Hehehe and you tell me i am disregarding on panel proof :)
Thats because as Beyonder said he had a willing participant to die for him and become death.
"I suppose i could try! Maybe if someone.. some sentient created were willing.. worse .. to become Death"
So its not like he was Hi-Ya! die b*tch die.
He need a very specific scenario that someone had to willingly submit to dying and becoming death.
My point was your are using that one sentence to somehow mean it was a small portion of his power, a fraction likely close to something like .05% while the context suggest it was more towards 1/2 (not really half his power though).
That because:
1. Beyonder himself says he is using a LOT of his power.
2. Mephisto himself says there was a chance that his own power, stored, could be Beyonder undoing, which contradicts it being a tiny fraction of his power.
Nothing to do with Ceremonious, he himself said he had to use a LOT of his power, while Thanos just up and absorbed the entire heroes, the universe , the main abstract and Living Tribunal with no ease.
Thats disregarding the power difference between Living Tribunal and Death.
I have never said anything against this, what i am saying was there are tiny things in the two that to some extend shows Thanos being superior. I.e. the ease with which he handled Avengers + Abstracts + Living Tribunal, vs the way Beyonder handled Death.
============================
@killemall said:
What on panel feat am i actually disagreeing with there Master??
============================
I said, On Panel Facts.
The fact that a "fraction" of Beyonder's limited power was used to kill Death.
============================
@killemall said:
Hehehe and you tell me i am disregarding on panel proof :)
============================
This insinuation suggesting I'm using backhanded tactics to debate is cute.
Fact is though:
On Panel ... Beyonder stated he couldn't bring back the Concept of Death.
Yet ... On Panel Beyonder brought back the Concept of Death.
Am I missing something my good friend? :)
============================
@killemall said:
Thats because as Beyonder said he had a willing participant to die for him and become death.
"I suppose i could try! Maybe if someone.. some sentient created were willing.. worse .. to become Death" So its not like he was Hi-Ya! die b*tch die. He need a very specific scenario that someone had to willingly submit to dying and becoming death.
============================
Wait, so you actually believe that if Dave had said, 'no forget that, I wanna stay as Dave,' that Beyonder would have not been able to do his thing?
Well, I completely disagree.
Dave was Beyonder's friend, so Beyonder allowed him to have a choice (willing) but this had No bearing on Beyonder being able to kill him or not, which is what brings back the Concept of Death ... Killing something alive. (Dave)
This is because Nothing could Die!
Even the most powerful being = Owen > LT, could not destroy a flower:
---------------------------------------------------------------
ONLY Beyonder had the power to Kill something, thus re-creating the Concept of Death via Dave' death:
Not "willing to die" ... "worse ... to become Death"
(which was only possible by getting killed ... something only Beyonder could do)
============================
@killemall said:
My point was your are using that one sentence to somehow mean it was a small portion of his power, a fraction likely close to something like .05% while the context suggest it was more towards 1/2 (not really half his power though).
That because:
1. Beyonder himself says he is using a LOT of his power. 2. Mephisto himself says there was a chance that his own power, stored, could be Beyonder undoing, which contradicts it being a tiny fraction of his power.
============================
I was just throwing a "fraction" to make a point. I don't know, and you don't know exactly how much power was in the cup. Final.
1) Beyonder also said he couldn't bring back Death cause a LOT of his power was used, Yet, he brought Death back just fine.
2) How the hell could Mephisto know for sure it would undo Beyonder?
Mephisto only knew for sure HOW much power was in Beyondersbane cause he siphoned it. (a Fraction)
Heck, Mephisto wasn't even sure it could work at all, he gambled assuming Beyonder may have been vulnerable due to the "Fraction" of his power he was missing:
That aside, Beyondersbane also included the power of the Multiverse:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16375820/Beyo5.jpg.html
============================
@killemall said:
Nothing to do with Ceremonious, he himself said he had to use a LOT of his power, while Thanos just up and absorbed the entire heroes, the universe , the main abstract and Living Tribunal with no ease. Thats disregarding the power difference between Living Tribunal and Death.
============================
I was talking about the usage of the Cup.
============================
@killemall said:
I have never said anything against this, what i am saying was there are tiny things in the two that to some extend shows Thanos being superior. I.e. the ease with which he handled Avengers + Abstracts + Living Tribunal, vs the way Beyonder handled Death.
============================
Well, if you wanna nit-pick ... then Thanos, with all his power, couldn't fix the Flaw.
And didn't affect anything outside of Space-Time.
There.
I should add, since this seems to be the way yall are comparing Beyonder with THOTI.
This really is meaningless to me cause I still pin classic Beyonder vs THOTI as a Stalemate, but it's to show yall how insignificant highlighting this minute detail as a foundation to say Beyonder had limitations as opposed to THOTI, is a flawed perspective imo.
So, using technicality which I didn't want to do ... in terms of who seemed to make a greater effort to achieve they're goal:
Beyoder calmly/casually made a drink for the Multiversal Concept of Death ... he summons her with a thought, and even lets her know she was going to die, yet she had no choice but to drink the cup which would lead to erasing her Conceptual purpose from the Marvelverse.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Meanwhile Thanos went berserk, ... all out absorption Frenzy:
"The LT, Eternity. Infinity resisted being absorbed longer than the rest. Their stubbornness fanned the flames of my fury.
Until this inferno raged out of control"
===========================================
Well, not that it would make a difference in my "Stalemate" call, but I think it's quite obvious who was more nonchalant about their business.
Imo.
===========================================
But truly folks, if it's only about what Beyonder said, ... well statements, eat you heart out:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have a great day friends, I have ta go for now. :)
I said, On Panel Facts.
The fact that a "fraction" of Beyonder's limited power was used to kill Death.
You are saying Fraction as if it was ever eluded that it was a tiny bit of Beyonder's power when i am saying thats now how it appears to be.
First we have Beyonder himself saying he used a lot of his powers.
Had it been just a small fraction of his power , you would expect a statement something similar to this
Beyonder himself clearly makes distinction between the 2 powers he was going to use.
A small fraction to pwn Mephisto , which in itself doesnt say a lot, and a LOT of powers to kill Lady Death.
This insinuation suggesting I'm using backhanded tactics to debate is cute.
Fact is though:
On Panel ... Beyonder stated he couldn't bring back the Concept of Death.
Yet ... On Panel Beyonder brought back the Concept of Death.
Am I missing something my good friend? :)
I think so.
Firstly he didnt just bring back death, he had to sacrifice the one true friend he had, something i would expect Beyonder would never do if he could just bring back death willy nilly.
After all he himself says the concept of someone turning himself to death is not really a good thing.
"Some sentinent were willing.. worse .. to become death "
Pretty clearly he thinks having to turn someone into personification of death is a bad thing, yet he actually has to change his very friend into the personifaction of death, shows great sacrifice in regards to Beyonder.
============================
Wait, so you actually believe that if Dave had said, 'no forget that, I wanna stay as Dave,' that Beyonder would have not been able to do his thing?
Well, I completely disagree.
Dave was Beyonder's friend, so Beyonder allowed him to have a choice (willing) but this had No bearing on Beyonder being able to kill him or not, which is what brings back the Concept of Death ... Killing something alive. (Dave)
This is because Nothing could Die!
Even the most powerful being = Owen > LT, could not destroy a flower:
---------------------------------------------------------------
ONLY Beyonder had the power to Kill something, thus re-creating the Concept of Death via Dave' death:
Not "willing to die" ... "worse ... to become Death"
(which was only possible by getting killed ... something only Beyonder could do)
Yes i honestly do believe if Dave had said no or something , it might have been different , after all thats what their conversation seem to point at:
Dave: "Beyonder i was crazy I didnt realitze. You've Got to fix it. Bring Death back please"
Beyonder : "Dave I can't. The only way to do that -- well it would mean killing someone, thats beyond even my powers now"
Dave: "I cant believe that! you still have more powerful than all of the mighty comnined! there must be a way!"
I See this conversation as Dave asking Beyonder to bring back death. Beyonder calmly saying, look i cant. Then Dave saying oh sure you cant normally , but you are so powerful there must be a way.
Then Beyonder seem to point, ok there might be a way and that is if you willing sacrifice yourself, wanting to be death, it might work.
And it did.
Which explains the lack of surprised from Beyonder (although may be bad artist illustration)
He seem to be stressing himself greatly though , "Umf! I'm doing my best"
And then it works.
Compare that to Thanos just killing the abstract then making the universe just the way it was except now Death would be permanent and there would be no crossing the great void.
It just looks better when Thanos did it.
I was just throwing a "fraction" to make a point. I don't know, and you don't know exactly how much power was in the cup. Final.
1) Beyonder also said he couldn't bring back Death cause a LOT of his power was used, Yet, he brought Death back just fine.
2) How the hell could Mephisto know for sure it would undo Beyonder?
Mephisto only knew for sure HOW much power was in Beyondersbane cause he siphoned it. (a Fraction)
Heck, Mephisto wasn't even sure it could work at all, he gambled assuming Beyonder may have been vulnerable due to the "Fraction" of his power he was missing:
That aside, Beyondersbane also included the power of the Multiverse:
If the first sentence is as it is, i agree completely.
We dont know how much power Beyonder put in the cup, you posted scans suggesting it was a minor fraction, which i disagree, coz that doesnt seem to be the way.
Then i never said Mephisto knew for sure he could undo Beyonder, what i however said was (Quoting myself word to word)
" Mephisto himself says there was a chance that his own power, stored, could be Beyonder undoing, which contradicts it being a tiny fraction of his power."
There were more powers included in the Beyonderbane, there is actually a better illustration in Secret Wars 2 # 7
But what i am however saying is the big powers of the multiverse where unable to do anything to Beyonder, which was made pretty clearly in the Death instance however it was the same fraction of Beyonder power that he save which seem to be the one Mephisto believed could actually be Beyonder undoing.
It does look like the biggest boost there was Beyonder's own power.
Well, if you wanna nit-pick ... then Thanos, with all his power, couldn't fix the Flaw.
And didn't affect anything outside of Space-Time.
There.
That was the whole point of the story the flaw itself being unfixiable.
Its not lack of power, its the nature of the flaw.
"And like falling dominos, the contamination spread throughout the vibratiory patterns until reversing reversing the damange became impossible."
"Impossible for even he for whom nothing is supposed to be impossible"
Its pretty clearly the flaw itself, after all Thanos did first destroy the whole universe alongside every on it.
And then re-created it all just fine
Fixing the universe should reasonable take a lot less power than erasing and completely re-making the universe. It seem it was the nature of the flaw itself that couldnt be fix, as opposed to him having less power.
As per him doing affecting space and time, he destroyed 1 universe and 1 universe alone, but for Thanos thats what he wanted to do.
"So i continued to absorb ALLthat might threaten my reign."
So he killed , absorbed everyone who might have rallied against him. He had the power of god in reality 4321, people opposed to he destroyed everything in reality 4321 and 4321 alone.
I dont really understand what you are trying to say on the second post, although if you are saying Beyonder saying no one could beat him unless he himself wanted to suggest he was more powerful, well Thanos has similar statement from his own as well.
"Their very existence was by my whim!
Who is this "their" he is addressing.
Everyone who attacked him, that included all heroes, all abstracts and LT included.
@ghostravage: The fact that he got his powers stolen from him by Doom (embarrassing), and he was arm wrestling Molecule-Man like a girl makes me think he's overrated a little bit.
That puts him below HOTU, none of that embarrassing garbage happend to Thanos.
This is how Thanos talked to guys who challanged him.(no arm wrestling bullsh1t)
@ghostravage: The thing is whoever takes Secret Wars Beyonder seriously needs his head examined. Most of the story in Secret Wars 1 and 2 is satirical in a sense, full of plotholes and bad writing.
For example, Secret Wars 1 was written for a toyline that was about to come out and the fights used as a marketing campaing (good guys win in the end cliche of the 80s). Even the characters were drawn to resemble the toys. The stupidity of the story arc should be taken as a joke by real comic book fans and nothing more.
Examples of stupidity -
Wolverine seriously injures Molecule-Man.
Captain America defeats Doom (with Beyonders' power)
Secret Wars 2, retardness:
Hercules punches the shit out of Beyonder.
Beyonder begs Dr. Strange to enlighten him.
Beyonder gets the shit kicked out of him by The Thing.
Avengers and X-Men stomp Beyonder.
Whoever takes this joke and retarded story arc of the 80s as a real character development of Beyonder is an idiot and has no brain, and really I'm done debating this garbage.
Log in to comment