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#1 Edited by mark424 (7 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre retcon Beyonder

vs

Living tribunal

Inbetweener

Franklin Richards(full control of his powers)

All the celestials

Thanos w IG and heart of the universe

All Asgardian gods and Hindu gods (shiva,vishnu,brahama)

Elders of the universe

Galactus

Classic Doctor strange

Heralds of Galactus

oblivion, death, infinity ,eternity

Phoenix Force

classic molecule man

#2 Edited by GhostRavage (8404 posts) - - Show Bio

PR Beyonder stomps...

#3 Posted by dakkad00d (119 posts) - - Show Bio

PR Beyonder has had its power stolen by Doctor Doom, I don't recall LT having a similar problem.

#4 Edited by GhostRavage (8404 posts) - - Show Bio

@dakkad00d: Maybe you don't recall LT begging Owen to fight PR Beyonder either because he couldn't do jack to him...

#5 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3486 posts) - - Show Bio

Half of these people are irrelevant because their power levels overlap so much. He stomps. The only even remote threat was the Living Tribunal and...

Seeing as how the only being event remotely close to his power, lost and incidentally is not in this battle. PR Beyonder. And for future reference these battles should be considered spite.

#6 Posted by GhostRavage (8404 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: Fights with PR Beyonder goes from Spite to Stalemate at best. PR Beyonder can't lose xD

#7 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3486 posts) - - Show Bio
#8 Posted by mark424 (7 posts) - - Show Bio

What if I added the heart of the universe to Thanos's arsenal

#9 Posted by Bronze_Surfer (2966 posts) - - Show Bio

So it's basicly PR Molecule Man and Thanos HOTU vs PR BEyonder

#10 Posted by eternityx (2529 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanos HOTU solos or it's a stalemate.

#11 Posted by BobSaysHi25 (173 posts) - - Show Bio

I win with the almighty pink eraser :D

#12 Posted by Killemall (18326 posts) - - Show Bio

Team

#13 Edited by Bronze_Surfer (2966 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: Really.

Can HOTU Thanos stand up to the might of beyonder?

I mean the abstracts did attack thanos while they cowered at beyonder

#14 Posted by Killemall (18326 posts) - - Show Bio

@bronze_surfer: I think thats a pretty bad analogy, had Abstract attacking Thanos achieved anything at all, it would have been a different issue. They didnt, everyone got absorbed in all but 1 page. Furthermore, Thanos defeated / killed LT a lot easier than Beyonder killed Death, unlike Beyonder Thanos was never said to have been weakened. There are few things that hints Thanos being more powerful.

That being said once you get beyond Living Tribunal in terms of power hierarchy its very hard to say anything.

#15 Posted by GhostRavage (8404 posts) - - Show Bio

@bronze_surfer: I think thats a pretty bad analogy, had Abstract attacking Thanos achieved anything at all, it would have been a different issue. They didnt, everyone got absorbed in all but 1 page. Furthermore, Thanos defeated / killed LT a lot easier than Beyonder killed Death, unlike Beyonder Thanos was never said to have been weakened. There are few things that hints Thanos being more powerful.

That being said once you get beyond Living Tribunal in terms of power hierarchy its very hard to say anything.

True... Still... Leaning towards PR Beyonder.

#16 Edited by JohnnyZ256 (2270 posts) - - Show Bio

Who is the dude battling the Beyonder in the panel? Also, for the OP, it's not a good idea to include present-day gods (or God) in your scenarios. Someone may not appreciate it.

#17 Posted by GhostRavage (8404 posts) - - Show Bio

Who is the dude battling the Beyonder in the panel? Also, for the OP, it's not a good idea to include present-day gods in your scenarios. Someone may not appreciate it.

PR Molecule Man. The only man who had the slightest shred of chance to stop PR Beyonder.

#18 Posted by Killemall (18326 posts) - - Show Bio

@johnnyz256: Its Pre Retcon Molecule Man (Owen Reece).

True... Still... Leaning towards PR Beyonder.

Fair enough.

2 people who apart from plot induced stuffs never really had a limit to anything its pretty impossible to come up with a definitive stuffs.

PR Beyonder has more feats, has affected multiverse and stuffs, but then has a lot more appearences.

Honestly i am a Thanos fan, as long as its even steven i'll totally back Thanos. :p Sue me.

#19 Posted by GhostRavage (8404 posts) - - Show Bio

@johnnyz256: Its Pre Retcon Molecule Man (Owen Reece).

@ghostravage said:

True... Still... Leaning towards PR Beyonder.

Fair enough.

2 people who apart from plot induced stuffs never really had a limit to anything its pretty impossible to come up with a definitive stuffs.

PR Beyonder has more feats, has affected multiverse and stuffs, but then has a lot more appearences.

Honestly i am a Thanos fan, as long as its even steven i'll totally back Thanos. :p Sue me.

Hehehee, fair enough, im a fan of PR Beyonder as well so i'll side with him. :P

#20 Posted by MrMaster (44 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall said:

@bronze_surfer: Furthermore, Thanos defeated / killed LT a lot easier than Beyonder killed Death, unlike Beyonder Thanos was never said to have been weakened.

Hey there good friends, hope yall had a great weekend.

Beyonder was "weakened?" ... oh, you mean when he stated that senselessness about himself? That silly Beyonder playing the fool.

Actually friends, the Beyonder had limited himself greatly as we all know.

There wasn't any limitations except for the one he himself imposed.

Death was erased, then re-created just as easily ... even under the blanket of his self-imposed limitation.

As for Miss Death ... she fears Beyonder ...

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15472755/B.jpg.html

... just like the Living Tribunal & all the Multiverse:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15472758/B3.jpg.html

Which is why the Living Tribunal didn't dare raise a finger to Beyonder, yet, he disrespected Thanos and attacked him directly.

----------------------------------------------------

Btw, my friends, here's proof that the "enormous amount of energy"

Beyonder used to kill Miss Death,

was nothing more than a Fraction of his power:

lol, a "fraction" ... of his already self imposed limitations.

============================

Thanos/HOTI stalemates classic Beyonder ... everyone/thing else on the list is inconsequential.

#21 Edited by Killemall (18326 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrmaster: I disagree, Beyonder himself on panel says he was weakened so i dont see why it should be interpreted as anything but.

Furthermore i think you are over-reading the statement. All Mephisto said was "So potent is this fraction of his power" not to mention 1/2 is also a fraction. Thats not including how we are talking Mephisto assessment of Beyonder as genuine, when his plan was to weaken Beyonder by sending a bunch of fodder villian then beat him using the same energy he absorbed.

As per LT attacking him, i dont see how that shows superiority, when the abstract achieved well absolutely zack with the attack. Neither of them were able to hurt him nor do anything against him, they were all beaten and absorbed all the same. The only one who wasnt absorbed was Death but then again Thanos would never absorb death.

Beyonder had to actually make Death drink from a cup, Thanos killed LT without any such method and without being weakened, lack of feat is alright, but that distinction stands regardless of Beyonder having limited himself to exist in the multiverse.

You will find scans and stuffs on my next post below .

#22 Posted by ImNemotheGemini (845 posts) - - Show Bio

PR Beyonder does not lose unless he wants too ! Simple as that !

#23 Posted by BullPR (676 posts) - - Show Bio

I loved PR Beyonder when I read it in the 80s. The panel with him and Rachel/Phoenix is the best I have ever seen.

However...

Any fight againt Thanos with HOTU doesn't make any sense (for me).

From what I remember reading in the general news, NOT in the comics, this whole story with Thanos was like a rebellion in the Marvel editorial office. All these deaths and resurrections in Marvel were overwhelming and at the time there were a lot of criticisms against Marvel. Some (majority, minority? I really don't remember) of the editorial office said: "Stop", and pointed at the resurrection of Wonderman the start of all this nonsense.

Thanos with HOTU was in fact a representation of some of Marvel writers. Trying to fix the flaws in Marvel.

It feels strange to me each time I see you debate Thanos with HOTU against any character.

I will try to find some free articles or abstracts to support my point.

#24 Posted by Killemall (18326 posts) - - Show Bio

Well since Mr. Master put in the scans i should do so as well, argument without scans feels a bit hollow.

Beyonder himself makes it pretty clearly killing Death is going to weaken him

"Once this is done, i wont have enough power to undo it! i cant bring her back!"

Beyonder also makes it clearly a LOT of his powers are being just merely to kill death

"Dave, a lot of my powers is in that cup"

Beyonder himself couldnt then kill anyone, or re-create the abstract, unless someone willing volunteered.

"I suppose i could try! Maybe if someone,

some sentient creature were willing.. worse.. to become death,

in a manner of speaking "

He was lucky he had a willing participant, and he did exactly what he said, killed the sentient creature who willing volunteered to become death and just like Beyonder explained "... from the seed of the first death, it's grim spectre would rise again!"

All of these are from Secret Wars 2 # 6.

As per the fraction of his power scan, which is from Secret Wars 2 # 7, apart from saying it was a fraction of his power Mephisto also says a machine that collects the same power and enough in it to potentially destroy Beyonder

"It has the power to cause his (Beyonder's) undoing and the sweet irony is that its power came from the Beyonder himself".

So we have :

1. Beyonder himself saying he put a LOT of his power to kill Lady Death

2. Mephisto saying the same power from Beyonder himself collected had potential to actually defeat Beyonder.

vs

1. A statement from Mephisto referring to that part of power as "so potenti is this fraction of his power that no vessel save the body of the beyonder himself can long contain it"

I think there is more evidence to suggest it was a huge portion of his powers rather than a mere fraction.

#25 Posted by Killemall (18326 posts) - - Show Bio

@bullpr: That sounds pretty sweet, i would be interested if you can actually find the article, its awesome because those stuffs are perfectly mentioned in the panel.

#26 Posted by BullPR (676 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, looking quickly I found that:

"

(...)

Jim Starlin just takes shit like that as a jumping off point and then does something to make Joe Quesada's crazy promises make sense.

In this case, Starlin provides a solution to heroes returning from the dead (...)

I really like the fact that Starlin managed to make the story, partly, about fulfilling an editorial mandate about no more resurrections (since not adhered to). I wonder if he was asked to do that or just decided to take it upon himself.

(...)

Source: http://graphicontent.blogspot.com/2008/01/hello-cosmic-19-marvel-end.html

#27 Edited by MrMaster (44 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall said:

@mrmaster: I disagree, Beyonder himself on panel says he was weakened so i dont see why it should be interpreted as anything but.

Furthermore i think you are over-reading the statement. All Mephisto said was "So potent is this fraction of his power" not to mention 1/2 is also a fraction. Thats not including how we are talking Mephisto assessment of Beyonder as genuine, when his plan was to weaken Beyonder by sending a bunch of fodder villian then beat him using the same energy he absorbed.

Beyonder had to actually make Death drink from a cup, Thanos killed LT without any such method and without being weakened, lack of feat is alright, but that distinction stands regardless of Beyonder having limited himself to exist in the multiverse.

You can disagree with the On Panel facts, but that's all it will be.

Beyonder "himself said he was weakened?" ... I don't remember ever reading that.

What I do recall is this verbatim: "A lot of my power is in that cup ... Once it is done, I won't have enough power to undo it"

Now is this true? Absolutely Not! (Shooter with the drama) cause afterwards Beyonder did bring back the Concept of Death, basically achieving the impossible, which was ... killing something when the very idea was erased from the Marvelverse.

Correct, a "fraction" which could also be .05% ... or 1/2 as you say of the self imposed limited state Beyonder was in to begin with.

I have no clue what difference it makes the method of the feat. Beyonder's was more ceremonious ... big deal.

Anyway, limited Beyonder defeated the most powerful being in the Marvelverse: ... classic Owen Reece > LT + all reality ................... Beyonder didn't stomp the LT, cause the LT was shitting in his pants thinking about the Beyonder.

#28 Posted by JackKnight (2969 posts) - - Show Bio

Beyonder stalemates Thanos with the HOTU while curbstomps everyone else.

#29 Edited by Killemall (18326 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrmaster said:

You can disagree with the On Panel facts, but that's all it will be.

What on panel feat am i actually disagreeing with there Master??

Beyonder "himself said he was weakened?" ... I don't remember ever reading that.

What I do recall is this verbatim: "A lot of my power is in that cup ... Once it is done, I won't have enough power to undo it"

Now is this true? Absolutely Not! (Shooter with the drama)

Hehehe and you tell me i am disregarding on panel proof :)

Thats because as Beyonder said he had a willing participant to die for him and become death.

"I suppose i could try! Maybe if someone.. some sentient created were willing.. worse .. to become Death"

So its not like he was Hi-Ya! die b*tch die.

He need a very specific scenario that someone had to willingly submit to dying and becoming death.

Correct, a "fraction" which could also be .05% ... or 1/2 as you say of the self imposed limited state Beyonder was in to begin with.

My point was your are using that one sentence to somehow mean it was a small portion of his power, a fraction likely close to something like .05% while the context suggest it was more towards 1/2 (not really half his power though).

That because:

1. Beyonder himself says he is using a LOT of his power.

2. Mephisto himself says there was a chance that his own power, stored, could be Beyonder undoing, which contradicts it being a tiny fraction of his power.

I have no clue what difference it makes the method of the feat. Beyonder's was more ceremonious ... big deal.

Nothing to do with Ceremonious, he himself said he had to use a LOT of his power, while Thanos just up and absorbed the entire heroes, the universe , the main abstract and Living Tribunal with no ease.

Thats disregarding the power difference between Living Tribunal and Death.

Anyway, limited Beyonder defeated the most powerful being in the Marvelverse: ... classic Owen Reece > LT + all reality ................... Beyonder didn't stomp the LT, cause the LT was shitting in his pants thinking about the Beyonder.

I have never said anything against this, what i am saying was there are tiny things in the two that to some extend shows Thanos being superior. I.e. the ease with which he handled Avengers + Abstracts + Living Tribunal, vs the way Beyonder handled Death.

#30 Edited by BullPR (676 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: See above for the first article found (my post crossed yours). Below from an ITW the EID gave in 2003 (year HOTU was published):

"(...) Quesada also talked about whether or not Magneto was actually dead in light of the stated "dead means dead" policy: "When I said 'dead means dead' I was talking about significant deaths," the EIC said, citing Karen Page's death in "Daredevil" as an example (as opposed to an obscure or assumed death). "So we'll have to wait and see if Magneto's was significant or not" (...) "

From http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=2582

#31 Posted by Killemall (18326 posts) - - Show Bio

@bullpr: The first article there is nothing there thats official, and the official verdict is indeed Marvel : The End is non canon and takes place in Reality 4321, however at least some part of it happened in the canon reality.

Havent read this particular article.

#32 Edited by BullPR (676 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: Question:

Even if it's now considered as non canon (probably for editorial reasons), when Starlin wrote it, it was with the intent to make it "official" and he wrote Thanos with HOTU as a representation of the writer. How can you use such a character in a battle?

Unless you don't consider that Thanos with HOTU is the expression of the Marvel editorial board until I find one or two articles that are more convincing.

I would understand this position.

I checked Google 5 minutes and didn't find an obvious ref, so if you're not convinced (for example by the correlation between Quesada ITW in 2003 and the plot of Marvel: the End), well I have to forfeit...

(Unless I think again about it this Week End and find more time to look further into that)

#33 Edited by jojjimbo (2472 posts) - - Show Bio

It's either a stalemate or PR Beyonder wins, Thanos with HOTU was a beast though.

#34 Edited by MrMaster (44 posts) - - Show Bio



============================

@killemall said:

What on panel feat am i actually disagreeing with there Master??

============================

I said, On Panel Facts.

The fact that a "fraction" of Beyonder's limited power was used to kill Death.

============================

@killemall said:

Hehehe and you tell me i am disregarding on panel proof :)

============================

This insinuation suggesting I'm using backhanded tactics to debate is cute.

Fact is though:

On Panel ... Beyonder stated he couldn't bring back the Concept of Death.

Yet ... On Panel Beyonder brought back the Concept of Death.

Am I missing something my good friend? :)

============================

@killemall said:

Thats because as Beyonder said he had a willing participant to die for him and become death.

"I suppose i could try! Maybe if someone.. some sentient created were willing.. worse .. to become Death" So its not like he was Hi-Ya! die b*tch die. He need a very specific scenario that someone had to willingly submit to dying and becoming death.

============================

Wait, so you actually believe that if Dave had said, 'no forget that, I wanna stay as Dave,' that Beyonder would have not been able to do his thing?

Well, I completely disagree.

Dave was Beyonder's friend, so Beyonder allowed him to have a choice (willing) but this had No bearing on Beyonder being able to kill him or not, which is what brings back the Concept of Death ... Killing something alive. (Dave)

This is because Nothing could Die!

Even the most powerful being = Owen > LT, could not destroy a flower:

---------------------------------------------------------------

ONLY Beyonder had the power to Kill something, thus re-creating the Concept of Death via Dave' death:

Not "willing to die" ... "worse ... to become Death"

(which was only possible by getting killed ... something only Beyonder could do)

============================

@killemall said:

My point was your are using that one sentence to somehow mean it was a small portion of his power, a fraction likely close to something like .05% while the context suggest it was more towards 1/2 (not really half his power though).

That because:

1. Beyonder himself says he is using a LOT of his power. 2. Mephisto himself says there was a chance that his own power, stored, could be Beyonder undoing, which contradicts it being a tiny fraction of his power.

============================

I was just throwing a "fraction" to make a point. I don't know, and you don't know exactly how much power was in the cup. Final.

1) Beyonder also said he couldn't bring back Death cause a LOT of his power was used, Yet, he brought Death back just fine.

2) How the hell could Mephisto know for sure it would undo Beyonder?

Mephisto only knew for sure HOW much power was in Beyondersbane cause he siphoned it. (a Fraction)

Heck, Mephisto wasn't even sure it could work at all, he gambled assuming Beyonder may have been vulnerable due to the "Fraction" of his power he was missing:

That aside, Beyondersbane also included the power of the Multiverse:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16375820/Beyo5.jpg.html

============================

@killemall said:

Nothing to do with Ceremonious, he himself said he had to use a LOT of his power, while Thanos just up and absorbed the entire heroes, the universe , the main abstract and Living Tribunal with no ease. Thats disregarding the power difference between Living Tribunal and Death.

============================

I was talking about the usage of the Cup.

============================

@killemall said:

I have never said anything against this, what i am saying was there are tiny things in the two that to some extend shows Thanos being superior. I.e. the ease with which he handled Avengers + Abstracts + Living Tribunal, vs the way Beyonder handled Death.

============================

Well, if you wanna nit-pick ... then Thanos, with all his power, couldn't fix the Flaw.

And didn't affect anything outside of Space-Time.

There.

#35 Edited by MrMaster (44 posts) - - Show Bio

I should add, since this seems to be the way yall are comparing Beyonder with THOTI.

This really is meaningless to me cause I still pin classic Beyonder vs THOTI as a Stalemate, but it's to show yall how insignificant highlighting this minute detail as a foundation to say Beyonder had limitations as opposed to THOTI, is a flawed perspective imo.

So, using technicality which I didn't want to do ... in terms of who seemed to make a greater effort to achieve they're goal:

Beyoder calmly/casually made a drink for the Multiversal Concept of Death ... he summons her with a thought, and even lets her know she was going to die, yet she had no choice but to drink the cup which would lead to erasing her Conceptual purpose from the Marvelverse.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Meanwhile Thanos went berserk, ... all out absorption Frenzy:

"The LT, Eternity. Infinity resisted being absorbed longer than the rest. Their stubbornness fanned the flames of my fury.

Until this inferno raged out of control"

===========================================

Well, not that it would make a difference in my "Stalemate" call, but I think it's quite obvious who was more nonchalant about their business.

Imo.

===========================================

But truly folks, if it's only about what Beyonder said, ... well statements, eat you heart out:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Have a great day friends, I have ta go for now. :)

#36 Posted by Hunter_Zolomon (190 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanos with HOTU > pre-retcon Beyonder.

The List :

1. TOA - irrelevant, since it's the writer.

2. HOTU

3. pre-retcon Beyonder

4. LT

5. rest

#37 Posted by GhostRavage (8404 posts) - - Show Bio

@hunter_zolomon: Based on what? PR Beyonder wasn't from the Marvel Verse and he claimed multiple times in Secret Wars he was an omnipotent being in his own Universe. Therefore, following the rules of the Vine, PR Beyonder its fighting at his best, and that's being an omnipotent being. Nonetheless, TOAA should not have any sort of authority among PR Beyonder given the fact logically PR Beyonder is not even a TOAA's creation, which makes me think that's one of the reasons nobody could stop him from undoing all that is besides Owen, who had powers from the same Universe as PR Beyonder. There are a few instances that suggests nobody/nothing could affect Beyonder if he didn't want to. He even started to comprehend the space time continuum and the Marvel Verse in its entirety, making him doubt about whats real and whats not, creating some kind of paradox about himself because there couldn't be 2 omnipotent beings in the same place.

The last part is a theory, but its something highly plausible IMO.

#38 Edited by Killemall (18326 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrmaster said:

I said, On Panel Facts.

The fact that a "fraction" of Beyonder's limited power was used to kill Death.

You are saying Fraction as if it was ever eluded that it was a tiny bit of Beyonder's power when i am saying thats now how it appears to be.

First we have Beyonder himself saying he used a lot of his powers.

Had it been just a small fraction of his power , you would expect a statement something similar to this

Beyonder himself clearly makes distinction between the 2 powers he was going to use.

A small fraction to pwn Mephisto , which in itself doesnt say a lot, and a LOT of powers to kill Lady Death.

This insinuation suggesting I'm using backhanded tactics to debate is cute.

Fact is though:

On Panel ... Beyonder stated he couldn't bring back the Concept of Death.

Yet ... On Panel Beyonder brought back the Concept of Death.

Am I missing something my good friend? :)

I think so.

Firstly he didnt just bring back death, he had to sacrifice the one true friend he had, something i would expect Beyonder would never do if he could just bring back death willy nilly.

After all he himself says the concept of someone turning himself to death is not really a good thing.

"Some sentinent were willing.. worse .. to become death "

Pretty clearly he thinks having to turn someone into personification of death is a bad thing, yet he actually has to change his very friend into the personifaction of death, shows great sacrifice in regards to Beyonder.

============================

Wait, so you actually believe that if Dave had said, 'no forget that, I wanna stay as Dave,' that Beyonder would have not been able to do his thing?

Well, I completely disagree.

Dave was Beyonder's friend, so Beyonder allowed him to have a choice (willing) but this had No bearing on Beyonder being able to kill him or not, which is what brings back the Concept of Death ... Killing something alive. (Dave)

This is because Nothing could Die!

Even the most powerful being = Owen > LT, could not destroy a flower:

---------------------------------------------------------------

ONLY Beyonder had the power to Kill something, thus re-creating the Concept of Death via Dave' death:

Not "willing to die" ... "worse ... to become Death"

(which was only possible by getting killed ... something only Beyonder could do)


Yes i honestly do believe if Dave had said no or something , it might have been different , after all thats what their conversation seem to point at:

Dave: "Beyonder i was crazy I didnt realitze. You've Got to fix it. Bring Death back please"

Beyonder : "Dave I can't. The only way to do that -- well it would mean killing someone, thats beyond even my powers now"

Dave: "I cant believe that! you still have more powerful than all of the mighty comnined! there must be a way!"

I See this conversation as Dave asking Beyonder to bring back death. Beyonder calmly saying, look i cant. Then Dave saying oh sure you cant normally , but you are so powerful there must be a way.

Then Beyonder seem to point, ok there might be a way and that is if you willing sacrifice yourself, wanting to be death, it might work.

And it did.

Which explains the lack of surprised from Beyonder (although may be bad artist illustration)

He seem to be stressing himself greatly though , "Umf! I'm doing my best"

And then it works.

Compare that to Thanos just killing the abstract then making the universe just the way it was except now Death would be permanent and there would be no crossing the great void.

It just looks better when Thanos did it.

I was just throwing a "fraction" to make a point. I don't know, and you don't know exactly how much power was in the cup. Final.

1) Beyonder also said he couldn't bring back Death cause a LOT of his power was used, Yet, he brought Death back just fine.

2) How the hell could Mephisto know for sure it would undo Beyonder?

Mephisto only knew for sure HOW much power was in Beyondersbane cause he siphoned it. (a Fraction)

Heck, Mephisto wasn't even sure it could work at all, he gambled assuming Beyonder may have been vulnerable due to the "Fraction" of his power he was missing:

That aside, Beyondersbane also included the power of the Multiverse:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16375820/Beyo5.jpg.html

If the first sentence is as it is, i agree completely.

We dont know how much power Beyonder put in the cup, you posted scans suggesting it was a minor fraction, which i disagree, coz that doesnt seem to be the way.

Then i never said Mephisto knew for sure he could undo Beyonder, what i however said was (Quoting myself word to word)

" Mephisto himself says there was a chance that his own power, stored, could be Beyonder undoing, which contradicts it being a tiny fraction of his power."

There were more powers included in the Beyonderbane, there is actually a better illustration in Secret Wars 2 # 7

But what i am however saying is the big powers of the multiverse where unable to do anything to Beyonder, which was made pretty clearly in the Death instance however it was the same fraction of Beyonder power that he save which seem to be the one Mephisto believed could actually be Beyonder undoing.

It does look like the biggest boost there was Beyonder's own power.

Well, if you wanna nit-pick ... then Thanos, with all his power, couldn't fix the Flaw.

And didn't affect anything outside of Space-Time.

There.

That was the whole point of the story the flaw itself being unfixiable.

Its not lack of power, its the nature of the flaw.

"And like falling dominos, the contamination spread throughout the vibratiory patterns until reversing reversing the damange became impossible."

"Impossible for even he for whom nothing is supposed to be impossible"

Its pretty clearly the flaw itself, after all Thanos did first destroy the whole universe alongside every on it.

And then re-created it all just fine

Fixing the universe should reasonable take a lot less power than erasing and completely re-making the universe. It seem it was the nature of the flaw itself that couldnt be fix, as opposed to him having less power.

As per him doing affecting space and time, he destroyed 1 universe and 1 universe alone, but for Thanos thats what he wanted to do.

"So i continued to absorb ALL that might threaten my reign."

So he killed , absorbed everyone who might have rallied against him. He had the power of god in reality 4321, people opposed to he destroyed everything in reality 4321 and 4321 alone.

I dont really understand what you are trying to say on the second post, although if you are saying Beyonder saying no one could beat him unless he himself wanted to suggest he was more powerful, well Thanos has similar statement from his own as well.

"Their very existence was by my whim!

Who is this "their" he is addressing.

Everyone who attacked him, that included all heroes, all abstracts and LT included.

#39 Posted by Hunter_Zolomon (190 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: The fact that he got his powers stolen from him by Doom (embarrassing), and he was arm wrestling Molecule-Man like a girl makes me think he's overrated a little bit.

That puts him below HOTU, none of that embarrassing garbage happend to Thanos.

This is how Thanos talked to guys who challanged him.(no arm wrestling bullsh1t)

#40 Posted by GhostRavage (8404 posts) - - Show Bio

@hunter_zolomon: The fact that he got his powers back and the fact that girl fight was felt in the entire Marvel Verse, affected the space time continuum and altered all realities possible makes me think you don't even know what you're talking about. If we're going by simply judging by how someone acts, then while LT, Infinity and Eternity tried to attack Thanos, All cosmic entities we're shitting their pants just by being near PR Beyonder, Uatu came and beg Owen... That little girl you mentioned, to fight Beyonder because NO ONE in the entire Marvel Verse could fight with him. Tsk Tsk... That's not the way to say a character is better.

By the way, what arm wrestling, its quite clear its a reality warping fight. Bravo... Bravo...

#41 Posted by SheenLantern (6268 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: The fact that he got his powers stolen from him by Doom (embarrassing), and he was arm wrestling Molecule-Man like a girl makes me think he's overrated a little bit.

You're talking about events that happened in Secret Wars II, when he purposely depowered himself.

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#42 Posted by Hunter_Zolomon (190 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern: @ghostravage: Does not matter who dies and where he dies, and what reality shaked and what blows up. When you are above everyone, NO ONE challenges you. Clearly that was not the case with Beyonder.

#43 Posted by GhostRavage (8404 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern: @ghostravage: Does not matter who dies and where he dies, and what reality shaked and what blows up. When you are above everyone, NO ONE challenges you. Clearly that was not the case with Beyonder.

LT Eternity and Infinity still challenged Thanos, your argument is blunt as hell...

#44 Edited by SheenLantern (6268 posts) - - Show Bio

@hunter_zolomon said:

@sheenlantern: @ghostravage: Does not matter who dies and where he dies, and what reality shaked and what blows up. When you are above everyone, NO ONE challenges you. Clearly that was not the case with Beyonder.

You said it puts him below HOTU, which it doesn't, since that was when he temporarily depowered himself to experience non-omnipotence.

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#45 Edited by Hunter_Zolomon (190 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: It's a huge difference, they were just threatening Thanos you don't see LT dancing around with Thanos like Beyonder did with Owen.

#46 Edited by GhostRavage (8404 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: It's a huge difference, they were just threatening Thanos you don't see LT dancing around with Thanos like Beyonder did with Owen.

Dude... Owen was the 2nd most powerful being in that story arc. Don't you get PR Beyonder was literally unstoppable? Everybody begged Owen to fight Beyonder ultimately losing. C'mon man, don't be difficult. Bring something else to the table rather than this rubbish of reasons you're giving to put Thanos HOTU above PR Beyonder.

#47 Posted by Hunter_Zolomon (190 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: Well since you claim feats are all that matter on the other post, Thanos has better feats. He defeated all the celestials and destroyed the universe. Something Beyonder did not do. Enough with the coulda, woulda, shoulda.

#48 Edited by BullPR (676 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage @killemall

It's funny to see you trying to compare omnipotence written in the 80's vs omnipotence written in the 2000's.

In my opinion, you are just debating the talent of the writers to convince you that their characters are omnipotent...

However, if (BIG if, but let's say ok to be able to discuss) we consider that Thanos with HOTU is not a parable of the writer trying to apply an editorial decision ("from now on, the dead remain dead") but is a regular character and as such he can be used in a battle:

1) In the fight between Beyonder and the celestials (if I remember correctly) and between Beyonder and Owen, the whole multiverse is in danger (not the Omniverse, but the Multiverse)

2) There is sometime a debate with Eternity, but not with LT: he is Multiversal.

3) If Thanos is able to capture Eternity, it can be (again if we consider that each Universe has is own Eternity) Eternity "4321". But when Thanos takes LT, it's not 4321 LT, it just THE Living Tribunal.

4) In these conditions:

a) Is Thanos with Hotu a God-like for the Multiverse or only for the 4321 reality?

b) If it's only for the 4321 reality, then Beyonder is clearly above... Easy way to find a winner :-)

c) Unless you are debating PR-Beyonder vs "PR(?)"-Thanos with HOTU...

#49 Edited by Hunter_Zolomon (190 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: The thing is whoever takes Secret Wars Beyonder seriously needs his head examined. Most of the story in Secret Wars 1 and 2 is satirical in a sense, full of plotholes and bad writing.

For example, Secret Wars 1 was written for a toyline that was about to come out and the fights used as a marketing campaing (good guys win in the end cliche of the 80s). Even the characters were drawn to resemble the toys. The stupidity of the story arc should be taken as a joke by real comic book fans and nothing more.

Examples of stupidity -

Wolverine seriously injures Molecule-Man.

Captain America defeats Doom (with Beyonders' power)

Secret Wars 2, retardness:

Hercules punches the shit out of Beyonder.

Beyonder begs Dr. Strange to enlighten him.

Beyonder gets the shit kicked out of him by The Thing.

Avengers and X-Men stomp Beyonder.

Whoever takes this joke and retarded story arc of the 80s as a real character development of Beyonder is an idiot and has no brain, and really I'm done debating this garbage.

#50 Posted by spiderbuck (2449 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrmaster said:

Thanos/HOTI stalemates classic Beyonder ... everyone/thing else on the list is inconsequential.