Pre-Retcon Beyonder & Michael Vs HOTU Thanos & Lucifer

@skyroid: Give me scan,HOTU,Cosmic cube,or any charaters can rewriter himself become another charater,please，You trying to discredit a powerful charater

When hotu rewriter himself become million times more powerful than multiverse?

Cosmic cube?

Scan it

Here we go again,just because said"probably“ isnt changed what writer points in this time:it's pretty sure beyonder have so many different origin is himself own making,not "TOAA" retconned beyonder into cosmic cube(Common view）

If you argue semantics,here:'

Toaa is supreme just because the entity BELIEVED

Maybe they are wrong?TOAA isnt supreme?

See?Semantic pointless argument

wth? are u directing that to me? where did I say hotu, cosmic cube can rewrite himself become another character?hotu x1million times more powerful then multiverse? where exactly did u see me write anything for wat ur accusing me of?

@powerwoman said:

Here we go again,just because said"probably“ isnt changed what writer points in this time:it's pretty sure beyonder have so many different origin is himself own making,not "TOAA" retconned beyonder into cosmic cube(Common view）

If you argue semantics,here:'

Toaa is supreme just because the entity BELIEVED

Maybe they are wrong?TOAA isnt supreme?

See?Semantic pointless argument

if it makes u feel better throw some curse at me about not understanding English but wat does that mean? also which handbook is that?

That's not a very accurate argument; Beyonder has to inherently limit himself to fit any reality else he is just sentient energy that composes his multiverse.

Is there a reason to believe his inherent need to limit reality is inapplicable here?

Truly how powerful Beyonder was in his actuality should have no bearing on this thread because he isn’t fighting in his own actuality in this thread.

And you likewise dont have evidence to suggest Beyonder re-wrote anything apart from his own origins, his stories both Secret Wars 1 and 2 are still canon.

Furthermore, the same publication that says whatever he believe is probably true also clearly says Dr. Doom defeated Beyonder by playing on his overconfidence, which you are again ignoring.

Picking and choosing what part of 1 publication, non canon if i might add, and ignoring what you dislike is terrible debating.

Doom beat beyonder is PIS,It's hard to belive you agree doom can beat beyonder!?really?!If he can,then he can beat HOTU,LT,etc

Yeah,he re-wrote anything in the SW3,SW1&2 just his dream,it's even not really,that mean beyonder rewriter anything

Given enough time sure Doom can, its not like Doom defeating Beyonder was because he was more powerful.

Also are you not ignoring the fact that Beyonder till this point had never interacted with any other beings apart from himself and was overconfident in his own abilities.

Something even the bio points out to you.

No its not, Secret Wars 1 and 2 have both been referred to in future publication. You ignored the same publication again which clearly explains that Secret Wars happened.

Be honest, do you only read and accept 1 paragraph from the given publication and ignore everything else??

Not really,in the SW3, it's very well said SW1&2 just his dream

Doom beat beyonder because beyonder let him do it

That's not what it says on Secret Wars # 3 all it says is that Beyonder defeating Celestials was a dream shown by Celestials themselves.

It doesnt say anything about the whole Secret Wars being a dream.

Nearly 10 years after that we see a clear reference to Secret Wars 1.

Gallery

Just because you keep saying that again and again doesnt really make it any more valid. The same publication that says Beyonder was changing his origin also says:

"... then challenged the Beyonder, playing on his opponent's overconfidence to usurp his powers too."

Clearly says Doom defeated Beyonder because he played on his overconfidence.

You are looking at 1 section of the publication and ignoring everything else, that's terrible debating. Either you believe everything on the said page on Blockbusters of Marvel Universe or simply dont refer to it at all.

You cant pick and choose.

Beyonder still has powers over a multiverse as its been said he stood in the marvel multiverse and was able to "Manipulate" it the multiverse is the way it is because he wants it to be.

That's fine and all but that’s different from the original claim though. My argument was against the idea that the said limitations Beyonder put upon himself in order to fit in would somehow be inapplicable in this thread.

Beyonder on any other reality other than his own because less powerful because of his inherent need to put in self imposed limitation to fit in the said reality. Less powerful doesn’t mean he cannot manipulate the multiverse that's a different thing altogether.

@claymore1998: Doom beat beyonder is because beyonder let him do it:

You scan isnt from SW3

No where on the scan does it say Beyonder let Doom beat him. You are just randomly taking a panel out of context that does not say anything about Beyonder and Doom's fight.

That is the full page from where you are croping one scan and somehow attributing it to suggest Beyonder let Doom beat him.

It is a continuation of Secret Wars 3, furthermore the said event is clearly referenced.

Also what's with you posting profanities on my wall?

Lets add a mod to the discussion @bumpyboo. Dear Bumpster the user above after not being able to hold a debate started posting profanities on my wall, I was wondering if taking an action would be applicable. Below under spoiler tag is the screen shot of the alleged.

@powerwoman: Hi there. No excuse whatsoever for posting that kind of thing, please don't do this again. We take people sending abuse to users very seriously.

@claymore1998: If it happens again, shoot me a PM.

@bumpyboo: Sure thing, thank you.

@claymore1998 said:

@powerwoman said:

@claymore1998: Doom beat beyonder is because beyonder let him do it:

No where on the scan does it say Beyonder let Doom beat him. You are just randomly taking a panel out of context that does not say anything about Beyonder and Doom's fight.

That is the full page from where you are croping one scan and somehow attributing it to suggest Beyonder let Doom beat him.

You scan isnt from SW3

It is a continuation of Secret Wars 3, furthermore the said event is clearly referenced.

Also what's with you posting profanities on my wall?

Lets add a mod to the discussion @bumpyboo. Dear Bumpster the user above after not being able to hold a debate started posting profanities on my wall, I was wondering if taking an action would be applicable. Below under spoiler tag is the screen shot of the alleged.

Doom want to beyonder's power then beyonder let him do it

By unconsciously,That's entire point

I'm done it,dont care what you said

Why try and be rude? All I have asked for is a panel that says Beyonder consciously allowed Dr. Doom to take his powers, and you have not been able to deliver that yet.

Furthermore, the very bio you are referring to clear says Doom defeated Beyonder because he played on his overconfidence.

Not only do you not have evidence for your claim, you are ignoring evidence against it, from the very source you keep referring to again and again.

Nothing against you as a person or anything, but the notion of picking and choosing what you want to believe from a given publication and ignoring the rest isn't the best way to debate. Even worse is trying to somehow shoe-horn a conversation between Beyonder and Owie pertaining to completing a cosmic cube and attributing it to a feat that has no relevance to the story.

If beyonder isnt give doom power,then would be no "SW",also no matter give doom how long time he cant beat LT,HOTU,OR TOAA

Just PIS

That's not an argument..

Why aren't you posting about Wonder Woman? This is strange.

@claymore1998: Doom defeated Beyonder because he played on his overconfidence but never negate beyonder's unconsciously want to give others desire,that why cap can fix his weapon,beyonder dont want to lose his power but his unconsciously let him do that

That entire points,also when beyonder become cosmic cube,SW1&2 isnt really anymore like million times more powerful than multiverse or much more powerful than LT or MM become cosmic cube too,all that is beyonder rewriter his origin then become true

Why aren't you posting about your favourite character?

That unconsciously want to give others desire comes in Secret Wars 3 not Secret Wars 1, because its the nature of the cosmic cube. It has nothing to do with Secret Wars 1 and you are just merely shoe honing it here for no reason.

A completely different instance that has nothing to do with Doom's story.

No its not even said once that Beyonder lost knowingly, or even said that Beyonder was unconsciously giving people desires in Secret Wars 1.

So? Beyonder made himself weaker than he was in Secret Wars 2, how is that a retcon of anything?

The same page that says Beyonder unconsciously made himself weaker also clearly says Beyonder lost because he was overconfident without anywhere even hinting he lost because he wanted to lose. Why are you again and again ignoring that?

You are simply picking things you likes and ignoring things you dont, and continue to parrot things and make your own story. That's horrible debating.

Beyond-realm=cosmic cube=mutant,they are all was beyonder himself but retconned many times,there only have ONE beyonder

In the SW2,beyonder is from beyond realm

In the SW3,beyonder is cosmic cube

That not just become "weaker" stop hate,Beyonder rewriter what he is which no other charater have done that feats

Because in the beyond-realm,beyonder was everything,marvel multiverse is many,so he dont understand marvel mutliverse and what is desire

Then he rewriter that,he not from beyond realm but cosmic cube,though still dont understand what is desire

Then he rewriter himself again,again,again,etc

It's very clear,all that could be happen it because beyonder himself made them become true,because he made himself in the beyonde-realm,then he would be dont know what is marvel universe and desire,beyonder dont know what is desire it's because beyonder made himself into beyond- realm then story was begin,if beyonder made himself become a human,he would be dont need to know what is desire but that would be become another story(retconned himself again)

That not stronger become weaker but everything would be change by logic

@claymore1998: Beyonder did give the battle world the right settings for both villains/heroes at full power so yes he did give what they desire "Power" to slay their enemies.

@powerwoman:

It's pretty obvious you don’t actually have an argument but will continue to parrot the same thing again and again without proof and keep ignoring a whole host of scans and bios that contradict your claim.

As such I think this discussion is pointless. You simply dont have the objective view of things and you dont even want to hear someone's argument, merely repeat the same argument that has already been addressed in great detail.

@beyondergod:

Sorry I am a bit lost to what you are trying to say, would you be kind enough to elaborate?

Neither mike nor lucy are quite at the levels of the other two

also beyonder is more powerful than HoTU, so team with Beyonder wins

@claymore1998:

No its not even said once that Beyonder lost knowingly, or even said that Beyonder was unconsciously giving people desires in Secret Wars 1.

Bold statement was an earlier post by you.

I am not entirely sure how this connects though. I understand that after having brought two groups he gave each other powers to kill their respective counterparts. This does not translate to Beyonder somehow subconsciously giving Dr. Doom power to kill or defeat the Beyonder.

Furthermore, the assumption doesn’t make sense since we know Beyonder later comes to Earth to kill Dr. Doom because he was mad at Doom for stealing his power, another example that contradicts Beyonder willing granting Dr. Doom power to defeat him.

Lastly, there are a fair few times when the said feat is referred to and not even once has either of the reference even hinted at Beyonder losing to Dr. Doom because he subconsciously wanted to lose, with at least one bio clearly saying Beyonder lost because he was overconfident. If the idea was to suggest so, wouldn’t you expect at least 1 of the reference to point that out?

team 1 imo

..............Beyonder only stated that doom stole his power because beyonder wanted to test doom and he failed and also what is a contradiction is

Dr.Doom: "The beyonder is DEAD!"

few issues later.......

Beyonder had regained his powers

Basically as a omnipotent being we cant comprehend what he did but he still was unstoppable before and after........beyonder wasn't tricked he was just seeing what would happen and he guessed it was a mistake as he said showed many times he limited himself when he allows it from heroin to beer to thing beating him up.

@spartan101: Agreed.

I am not sure where you are getting this from. Where does it say Doom stole Beyonder power because Beyonder wanted to test him? This is the precise thing i am asking people making their claim to present evidence for.

That's because it was too much power for Dr. Doom to control, it has been referred to again in the same regards. That doesn't really suggest Beyonder willingly lost in the said issue.

This feel like your own assumption though. Is there anywhere on the official publication where it says Beyonder lost because he wanted to lose.

I presume you meant Rachel when you are heroine, the issue makes it pretty clearly that Beyonder gave her the power to affect him. He says so himself clearly on panel. If it was the same with Doom, wouldnt you expect the issue to do the same, clearly tell us that's what happened.

Everyone need read this:

beyonder never allow Cap fix his shield

But it's happen

Why?

My points is 100% belive what 2011 bio said,any version of beyonder is himself own making,so,in the SW3,owen tell us that because beyonder subconscious wanted to given others desire

That why doom take beyonder power:

Doom's desire:I want to you all powers,beyonder

Captain America'S desire:Fix weapon

Doom take beyonder power just like captain america fix his weapon,both without beyonder "allow" but still happen,how?

@powerwoman: I love you lol.

The omniverse explodes

HOTU is but a tiny fraction of TOAAs power, its a one pop thing used to reshape the multiverse in whatever shape of form the user wishes however PR beyonder isn't from the marvel MV so it has no pull on him what so ever because hes from beyond hence the name "Beyonder" in his own reality he is its TOAA he is everyone and everything. The conflict and the peace, the stars the moon, the burgerking and the mac donalds ya feelin me? he has always been and always will be and nobody can change that unless The Beyonder wills it.

Team one.

Lucifer is playing the piano, the best feat of all. He solos

It comes down to Beyonder and Thanos. The others aren't even a factor.

@betarayz8317: Beyonder stomps Thanos.

Team 1