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#1 Posted by stevon (1022 posts) - - Show Bio

1.) Both are on Namek

2.) Win by death

3.) I was under the impression pre and post crisis Darkseid are the same person, due to a John Ostrander issue of Firestorm mentioning that Darkseid remembers pre-crisis events. If that isn't the case, then both Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis feats can be used anywa for this fight.

4.) If Darkseid is on the losing end, post flashpoint feats can be incorporated as well on top of what pre-flashpoint DS already has.

5.) Final form Frieza; if he loses, then King Cold can jump in and help.

#2 Edited by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio

Let's play the little game that we all play in any DBZ vs Darkseid thread.

Is there any reason to think that Freezia or King Cold can counter Omega Beams?

The answer is no, the answer is they both lose.

Now watch in awe as people low ball Darkseid while simultaneously playing up Freezia's speed far beyond what it actually was.

#DBZbattlethread

#3 Posted by The_Imperator (1908 posts) - - Show Bio

Darkseid is at miniumum able to carry chains of planets through space, since weakened future Darkseid could take out Superboy. Darkseid himself also has the Omega Beams, matter manipulation, a feat or two where he is faster than Flash, etc. Frieza is not going to be able to hurt him.

#4 Posted by stevon (1022 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Imperator: that seems like ABC logic though, and I don't recall pre-crisis darkseid doing anything notable (or even fight superboy) in the pre-crisis days aside from Great Darkness Saga, and I'm pretty sure an old DC handbook mentioned that Darkseid's powers during that story weren't his own (along with the fact that I don't think Legion of Superheroes has any bearing on the mainstream 21st century DC).

Besides, how do people know the Omega Beams can hurt frieza if they can't incinerate Superman or Wonder Woman's bracelets? How do we know they're fast enough to even tag Frieza (who also has IT)?

I'm curious, because I've seen a few people dismiss any low showing of Darkseid as PIS/CIS, when he's never had particularly high showings to begin with, even when comparing him to guys like Thanos.

#5 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (11839 posts) - - Show Bio

GG

#6 Posted by Smart_Dork_Dude (2616 posts) - - Show Bio

Darkseid

#7 Posted by ImmortalOne (3334 posts) - - Show Bio

@Decoy Elite said:

Now watch in awe as people low ball Darkseid while simultaneously playing up Freezia's speed far beyond what it actually was.

#DBZbattlethread

That's basically the formula for any DBZ vs thread.

Online
#8 Posted by GonnaRain (752 posts) - - Show Bio

Omega Beams > Frieza.

I can see Goku, or Gohan resisting the Omega Beam's effect due to their importance to the Universe, but not Frieza.

#9 Edited by BlackWind (5670 posts) - - Show Bio

@Decoy Elite said:

Let's play the little game that we all play in any DBZ vs Darkseid thread.

Is there any reason to think that Freezia or King Cold can counter Omega Beams?

The answer is no, the answer is they both lose.

Now watch in awe as people low ball Darkseid while simultaneously playing up Freezia's speed far beyond what it actually was.

#DBZbattlethread

Want some popcorn?

@GonnaRain said:

Omega Beams > Frieza.

I can see Goku, or Gohan resisting the Omega Beam's effect due to their importance to the Universe, but not Frieza.

What importance?

#10 Posted by The_Imperator (1908 posts) - - Show Bio

The Source protects Superman, sometimes, from the Omega Effect, because he is important.

#11 Posted by xlab3000 (3157 posts) - - Show Bio

Darkseid

#12 Posted by BlackWind (5670 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Imperator: I know, but what importance could Goku, or Gohan possibly have to the universe?

#13 Posted by The_Imperator (1908 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh, I thought you were asking why there was a caveat about being important. I don't think Goku/Gohan could resist the Omega Beams.

#14 Posted by stevon (1022 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Imperator: Any comics or comic book guides that have made that statement regarding his protection? I don't think I've ever heard of this aside from a few viners/people from other battle forums claiming it to be true.

#15 Posted by GonnaRain (752 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackWind: Goku pretty much saves the day everytime, without him, I'm guessing the whole DBZ Universe would've been destroyed at some point IDK. Probably not the case for Gohan, but Goku should've some importance to his Universe at least.

#16 Posted by BlackWind (5670 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see Goku being anywhere near as essential as Superman.

#17 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (11839 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackWind said:

I don't see Goku being anywhere near as essential as Superman.

that, and they've both died.....apparently not so important.... they'd get erased too lol

#18 Posted by The_Imperator (1908 posts) - - Show Bio

@stevon: I was looking, and it appears that it was only Darkseid surmising that the Source might have a plan for Superman. However, IIRC, the battles where Superman withstood the Omega Beams have been relegated to being Avatars or Desaad in disguise.

#19 Posted by BlackWind (5670 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ancient_0f_Days: I can see why Superman may be important, he's a symbol. Goku is, while a good hearted hero, small in comparison to Big Blue.

#20 Posted by Freefa11 (2337 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Imperator: @Ancient_0f_Days: @GonnaRain: The Source does not protect people from the Omega Beams and there is no protection from it due to being "important." Nowhere is that stated or implied in any of Darkseid's appearances. I'm pretty sure it is a purely fan-made explanation to excuse what some people consider to be low-showings.

Also, Darkseid's one encounter with Superboy only involved him BFRing SB with the Omega Beams, not physically manhandling him, so the comparison between their physical strengths is invalid.

#21 Posted by The_Imperator (1908 posts) - - Show Bio

@stevon said:

@The_Imperator: that seems like ABC logic though, and I don't recall pre-crisis darkseid doing anything notable (or even fight superboy) in the pre-crisis days aside from Great Darkness Saga, and I'm pretty sure an old DC handbook mentioned that Darkseid's powers during that story weren't his own (along with the fact that I don't think Legion of Superheroes has any bearing on the mainstream 21st century DC).

Besides, how do people know the Omega Beams can hurt frieza if they can't incinerate Superman or Wonder Woman's bracelets? How do we know they're fast enough to even tag Frieza (who also has IT)?

I'm curious, because I've seen a few people dismiss any low showing of Darkseid as PIS/CIS, when he's never had particularly high showings to begin with, even when comparing him to guys like Thanos.

Darkseid had minions that good take out Time Trapper and Mordru. That alone means that even in his weakened form, his minions still feared him. Ipso facto, either they were scared of the Omega Effect (which means it would at least be effective of Time Trapper level foes), or he was still strong enough to overpower them. Added to that, GDS Darkseid believed that he was still weaker than his normal universe form, even though he had absorbed the powers of Mordru and the Time Trapper.

And Darkseid is the same person Pre and Post Crisis, so Legion feats still count, but merely as a future version of him. And a version where he himself believed himself to be weaker than normal.

Also, as shown by the scan posted earlier, the Omega Beams work on Superman, so they should work on Frieza. The Omega Effect's lowest showing (unless this was retconned to be an Avatar/Desaad) is against Firestorm, where it is redirected back into Darkseid. However, Darkseid later effortlessly messed with Firestorm, and even has the same power set. Frieza is not going to win, especially if this gets into energy attacks.

#22 Posted by The_Imperator (1908 posts) - - Show Bio

@Freefa11: Ah, thank you for the Superboy correction. I could have sworn I saw them fighting somewhere... Did Darkseid ever fight PC Superman (I am trying to figure out what I actually saw.)?

#23 Posted by New_World_Order (12651 posts) - - Show Bio

Darkseid.

#24 Edited by The_Imperator (1908 posts) - - Show Bio

Here is the scan I was thinking of, and it is with a blast, not with strength. I concede the strength part.

Now, about the powers from the future not being his. The article on him says they may or may not be his. And even if they aren't, it means the Omega Beams trump even galaxy level Mordru or universe level Time Trapper. On top of that, mind control is within his power, and flying and teleportation were both shown on later occasions, meaning even in the future those were his powers.

#25 Posted by stevon (1022 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Imperator said:

And even if they aren't, it means the Omega Beams trump even galaxy level Mordru or universe level Time Trapper. On top of that, mind control is within his power, and flying and teleportation were both shown on later occasions, meaning even in the future those were his powers.

Yeah, I have the dcu profile in front of me right now, it says. "may or may not" I still have no idea whether or not any other sources made a decision regarding whether or not it was his own power. And even if it was, I still don't know if Legion stories count as 21st century feats for Darkseid or if they are in seperate continuities/timelines.

Then again, even if it doesn't count I belive Darkseid has shown the ability to use his Omega Effect to copy/siphon the powers of other people. If his Omega Beams hit frieza, is it possible for him to do this and take his abilities? Or are the various rules of DBZ powers/ki utilizing mean that Darkseid would have to train like a DBZ character to even use these powers?

#26 Posted by BlackWind (5670 posts) - - Show Bio

This still ain't locked?

Darkseid zaps him, and whatever planet their on into a black hole.

#27 Posted by Freefa11 (2337 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Imperator said:

And Darkseid is the same person Pre and Post Crisis, so Legion feats still count, but merely as a future version of him. And a version where he himself believed himself to be weaker than normal.

Darkseid making a claim about his own power doesn't hold a lot of water for me. He has also claimed to be omnipotent or infinite. He is a megalomaniac of the highest order, believing he should rightfully own and control pretty much everything that exists, including the thoughts and minds of all sentient life. He is hardly unbiased and impartial about his own abilities and importance. In fact, I believe Spectre explicitly pointed out that it is in DS's nature to disbelieve other forces are genuinely superior to him.

Also, as shown by the scan posted earlier, the Omega Beams work on Superman, so they should work on Frieza.

All they actually did there was teleport Superman. Supes has tanked them on a couple of occasions. Of course, I do believe they could probably teleport Freeza too, since BFR has always been Darkseid's strongpoint, but removing that option changes things for him a lot.

The Omega Effect's lowest showing (unless this was retconned to be an Avatar/Desaad) is against Firestorm, where it is redirected back into Darkseid. However, Darkseid later effortlessly messed with Firestorm, and even has the same power set. Frieza is not going to win, especially if this gets into energy attacks.

Darkseid has pretty few matter manipulation feats, and I don't think anything on the level of what Firestorm can do. Just because he somehow managed to separate him from Stein doesn't automatically mean DS has all of Firestorm's powers.

No, Darkseid never fought PC Superman, only that one instance against PC Superboy. I'm not convinced Mordru is genuinely galaxy level; a lot of people claim this, but a lot of people also claim PC Darkseid smacked around PC Superman on a regular basis. I just need a bit more than claims for something like that. Time Trapper was drained off-panel, so who knows what happened there.

Also, GDS is the only place Darkseid exhibited mind control. Seriously. In all of his appearances, Darkseid has never actually demonstrated mind control or telepathy on his own, except for Great Darkness Saga, when all of a sudden he can mind control billions. The only other time he's done anything even close to that was in Final Crisis, and he needed the Anti Life Equation for that.

#28 Posted by The_Imperator (1908 posts) - - Show Bio

@Freefa11: While I tend to not believe claims of his upper levels, if he downplays himself I would believe him, for precisely the reason you said. Because he is a megalomaniac, if he calls himself not powerful as he could be, when we know he thought himself omnipotent, that is rather telling.

IIRC, nearly every battle with Superman has either been retconned to be an Avatar, or Desaad in disguise, so whether or not the OE works on Superman is still rather iffy. On top of that, fully manifested Darkseid in Final Crisis crushed the multiverse, while dying, and that itself is not a power of the ALE.

Wasn't the scan I linked to PC Superman? And Darskeid fought the JLA in Pre-Crisis, and blindsided flash.

Here is a references to Darkseid's mental powers. In this one, Mister Miracle says Granny Goodness trained him to resist everyone less than Darkseid, and Sleeze had just taken over Superman and Big Barda. Which means, Darkseid has at least the mental power to enslave multiple people at once, and that Sleeze is less powerful than him.

@stevon: Darkseid used the Omega Effect to absorb the pantheons of several alien worlds, but I don't know if it would work on a non-God character. Mordru and Time Trapper are wild cards, since one was magic powered and thus Darkseid's element, and the other is really vaguely defined.

#29 Posted by King-Stranglehold da first (3215 posts) - - Show Bio

Darkseid stomps.

#30 Posted by stevon (1022 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Imperator said:

IIRC, nearly every battle with Superman has either been retconned to be an Avatar, or Desaad in disguise, so whether or not the OE works on Superman is still rather iffy. On top of that, fully manifested Darkseid in Final Crisis crushed the multiverse, while dying, and that itself is not a power of the ALE.

And Darskeid fought the JLA in Pre-Crisis, and blindsided flash.

Here is a references to Darkseid's mental powers. In this one, Mister Miracle says Granny Goodness trained him to resist everyone less than Darkseid, and Sleeze had just taken over Superman and Big Barda. Which means, Darkseid has at least the mental power to enslave multiple people at once, and that Sleeze is less powerful than him.

@stevon: Darkseid used the Omega Effect to absorb the pantheons of several alien worlds, but I don't know if it would work on a non-God character. Mordru and Time Trapper are wild cards, since one was magic powered and thus Darkseid's element, and the other is really vaguely defined.

I'd like to see a source on the avatar comment. I would imagine this was Grant Morrison's idea, but the whole avatar ordeal has felt vaguely explained by DC or by other writers/handbooks. I'd also like to know if Darkseid's appearance in late 80's to the late 90's were avatars, due to a comment made by entropy aegis, stating that Darkseid's appearances from 1989-1996 were retconned into being avatars (if so that could take several feats away from him from New Gods runs and the like, which might make things worse for him). That would also retcon his curbstomp at the hands of Doomsday too, which would be nice. I'm hoping a New Gods fan on thissite has enough information on avatars to clear things up.

As for blindsiding the flash, I don't think he ever did that. Unless you're referring to that Superpowers issue drawn by Jack Kirby where he used a hologram to crush the JLA (so I don't think it counts, he's using tech).

His mental powers still have never been displayed though, feats, especially on panel ones, are important.

And as for the omega effect taking powers, I think that if he managed to do this to characters stronger than Frieza, then it would work on Frieza as well.

What's interesting is that people don't seem to be considering some of Darkseid's post flashpoint feats, his omega effect seems a lot faster in that it can almost catch up to the Flash, and he effortlessly broke Hal Jordan's GL constructs. If he's on the losing end in any way here he can still incorporate nu52 feats as a last ditch effort.

#31 Posted by Freefa11 (2337 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Imperator said:

@Freefa11: While I tend to not believe claims of his upper levels, if he downplays himself I would believe him, for precisely the reason you said. Because he is a megalomaniac, if he calls himself not powerful as he could be, when we know he thought himself omnipotent, that is rather telling.

IIRC, nearly every battle with Superman has either been retconned to be an Avatar, or Desaad in disguise, so whether or not the OE works on Superman is still rather iffy. On top of that, fully manifested Darkseid in Final Crisis crushed the multiverse, while dying, and that itself is not a power of the ALE.

Wasn't the scan I linked to PC Superman? And Darskeid fought the JLA in Pre-Crisis, and blindsided flash.

Here is a references to Darkseid's mental powers. In this one, Mister Miracle says Granny Goodness trained him to resist everyone less than Darkseid, and Sleeze had just taken over Superman and Big Barda. Which means, Darkseid has at least the mental power to enslave multiple people at once, and that Sleeze is less powerful than him.

@stevon: Darkseid used the Omega Effect to absorb the pantheons of several alien worlds, but I don't know if it would work on a non-God character. Mordru and Time Trapper are wild cards, since one was magic powered and thus Darkseid's element, and the other is really vaguely defined.

i don't follow your reasoning. If DS normally unbeatable, and suddenly starts losing, of course he's going to look for an excuse for how that could happen.

The scan is from Action Comics Weekly, 637 or 638, so post-crisis.

Darkseid never fought the Flash pre-Flashpoint. The closest instance was Final Crisis, and he hardly blindsided Flash there.

Only one encounter between Darkseid and Superman has been retconned, and it is debatable exactly which one. The scan you posted is actually one of the contenders. None of his appearances have been retconned to an avatar; that is another fan-made theory to excuse his "low showings."

The inhabitants of Apokolips being raised to believe he has mind control is not surprising, as propaganda is a big part of how he rules. That doesn't change the fact he has not once, in either pre or post crisis, ever shown he actually had this power, except for GDS.

All the pantheons DS destroyed happened off-panel by completely unknown means and circumstances. Some people try to claim that he personally killed them all under his own power, but there really is no evidence of this.

@stevon: I have asked for evidence of the "avatar" for years whenever it is brought up, and no one has ever provided anything to suggest any particular appearance was retconned to an avatar, let alone all of them. I have read pretty much every appearance Darkseid has ever had, and none of them suggest this. As far as I'm concerned, it is a fan-made myth people try to use to excuse events like getting taken out by Doomsday.

#32 Posted by The_Imperator (1908 posts) - - Show Bio

@Freefa11: First off, here are his encounters that have been retconned to be Desaad, or even Avatars. Here, here(and interestingly enough, this seems to imply the Darkseid in my previous scan was actually Desaad), and here/here . Beyond that, Final Crisis Darkseid claims he has never before fully manifested, and considering in Final Crisis he was crushing the multiverse by existing, that is probably true.

And on the subject of Darkseid's telepathy, by default he is more powerful than Sleeze, since Sleeze is one of Darkseid's former servants, and Granny goodness taught Scott to protect himself from all on Apokalips, SAVE FOR Darkseid. Which means Darkseid is at least a tad bit more impressive than

Does this not count for fighting Flash? I honestly don't know; is it non-canon or something?

#33 Posted by Sethlol (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

Darkseid easily.

#34 Posted by Dextersinister (5808 posts) - - Show Bio

@Freefa11: Teleporting someone against there will to any place of your destination is a game ender, Darkseid has sent Superman home on a few occasion's when that location could have just as easily been a red star or in the case of Frieza any star should do.

#35 Posted by Smart_Dork_Dude (2616 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Imperator said:

Darkseid is at miniumum able to carry chains of planets through space, since weakened future Darkseid could take out Superboy. Darkseid himself also has the Omega Beams, matter manipulation, a feat or two where he is faster than Flash, etc. Frieza is not going to be able to hurt him.

You speak the truth

#36 Posted by stevon (1022 posts) - - Show Bio

@Freefa11 said:

The scan is from Action Comics Weekly, 637 or 638, so post-crisis.

All the pantheons DS destroyed happened off-panel by completely unknown means and circumstances. Some people try to claim that he personally killed them all under his own power, but there really is no evidence of this.

@stevon: I have asked for evidence of the "avatar" for years whenever it is brought up, and no one has ever provided anything to suggest any particular appearance was retconned to an avatar, let alone all of them. I have read pretty much every appearance Darkseid has ever had, and none of them suggest this. As far as I'm concerned, it is a fan-made myth people try to use to excuse events like getting taken out by Doomsday.

I'm pretty sure post and pre-crisis darkseid are the same person (in power and memory, according to Fury of Firestorm issue 58) but I've personally never seen any powerful pre-crisis feats from him either.

As for the pantheon destruction feats, they were likely discussed the most in John Byrne related New Gods issues, like Genesis (DC Odin appearaed too, and made hints about DS's power), but that was awfully written and I never read it so I couldn't tell you, honestly.

The only significant comment relating to the idea of him using avatars extensively was in a John Byrne issue of the New Gods (and a few Darkseid supporters here say that the Genisis crossover books that tied into the New Gods issues talk about it too). The main claim is that all appearances of him from 1989 to 1996 were avatars of himself.* This was supposedly because, from what I understand after veering though Darkseid comments on this site, that Mark Evaniers/Paris Cullins's new gods issues:

1.) Yuga Khan overthrows darkseid

2.)DS then asked orion to kill him near the source wall

3.) It doesn't actually happen, or something

but in john byrnes new gods, a retcon was made that orion had actually killed Darkseid, allowing DS's soul to breach the source and corrupt it. This would mean that Darkseid's 1989-1996 appearances were not the real version of him (this would retcon his loss to Doomsday as well). Byrne himself was asked on his forums if he intended for Darkseid's fight with Doomsday to be retconned, and he mentioned that he tried to allude to it.

You may find something supporting the "all Darkseids were actually avatars until FC" if you dig through some Grant Morrison interviews, since he often explains things about his books in manuals or whenever he talks about them. Considering he's a Darkseid fan though, it wouldn't suprise me if he made a retcon like this.

*I think additionally that an Alan Grant issue of Lobo and one of Anarky also make use of/or hint at the idea of Darkseid being stuck on the source wall.

#37 Posted by Freefa11 (2337 posts) - - Show Bio

@stevon: Well, I'm not sure where you got your information, but someone got things pretty mixed up somewhere along the line. I'll see if I can straighten it out without writing a whole essay.

Yes, when Yuga Khan overthrew DS, DS's plan was to have Orion "kill" him. However, this was not near the Source Wall, it was on Apokolips, within the mind of The Lump. The death was only intended to be a virtual one, meaning even if Orion had followed through, it wouldn't have actually killed Darkseid anyway. I also do not recall any references to this event in Byrnes works, and even if he had somehow retconned it into Orion doing what Darkseid had wanted, like I said, it was a virtual death anyway, so I don't see why it would matter at all. This event is in New Gods v2 21, from Dec 1990, so it wouldn't go back to 89 anyway.

Now, Orion does kill Darkseid within the Source Wall in New Gods v3 2, which wasn't published until Nov 1995. Darkseid uses technology to breach the Wall, and Orion follows him. They battle within the Source, with Orion eventually killing DS (DS wanted to die here). The Source does become corrupted, but it is not because of Darkseid's soul, it is because of Orion committing the horrible act of patricide within what is supposed to be pure and undefiled. It's also worth noting that Darkseid is actually dead here.

Now, you could argue that any appearances DS made around this time would have to be avatars. However, like I said, he was supposed to actually be dead. There is no mention of avatars popping up or anything like that from that time. Darkseid also resurrects himself at the end of issue 6. So even if you do go with the avatar route, the only other issues this would be relevant to are Wonder Woman 102-104, and JLA Annual 9. Not really major events, and with the way concurrent stories sometimes work in comics, it is entirely possible those events were simply intended to happen before New Gods v3 started (the story arc in WW, for example, started with WW 101, which was indeed published shortly before NGv3).

Darkseid is later trapped in the Source Wall again in New Gods v3 11. Yeah, just a few months later. However, he's back out again by the end of issue 15. Again, even if we assume he sent out avatars at this time to take his place, his only other appearance in this short time frame is Total Justice 2-3, which again has the issue of concurrent story arcs, and again is hardly a major appearance anyway.

Darkseid is trapped in the Source Wall yet again at the end of Genesis 4, Nov 1997. This time he doesn't come back until Jack Kirby's Fourth World 18, Aug 1998. However, once again, there are not actually any appearances made by DS in this timeframe that could be explained with Avatars; the only other place he shows up is in the JLA Rock of Ages storyline, which is an alternate future anyway.

So even if you assume Darkseid made avatars every time he's stuck in the Source Wall, he's never in there for very long, and none of these events correspond with any of his major appearances elsewhere. And while I would not mind seeing what Byrne intended in a blog post of his or something, an author's own inner thoughts aren't always automatically canon if what they "intended" wasn't actually published.

@The_Imperator: Yes, your first scan is "the" source for the Desaad retcons, but you'll note is only shows one scene with Darkseid and Superman, meaning it only retcons one of their encounters, and there were 3 in total prior to that issue. The second scan is not actually a retcon, it just reveals Desaad to have been impersonating Darkseid in that issue. It does not actually suggest he had been doing this in any other issues. Your last 2 scans also don't actually retcon anything; while they reveal Darkseid is capable of creating avatars (at least while trapped in the Source Wall), they do not actually refer to him using this ability in any specific instance. There is no reference to him sending an avatar against Doomsday, for example. It even explicitly states that Darkseid prefers not to create avatars, in general, meaning it is actually unlikely for any particular appearance of his to have been an avatar unless stated otherwise.

Basically, we can just use the old adage "if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its probably a duck." Aside from the first scan, none of those instances actually referred back to older events where you could replace Darkseid with an avatar or Desaad.

Final Crisis was Morrison obviously trying to retcon the New Gods, especially Darkseid, into being something they had never been before. Darkseid's statement about his enemies having only faced the "idea of a god" before is just as much grandiose hyperbole as his statements about being infinite and omnipotent. Even at the beginning of Final Crisis, Darkseid is dying because he had been fatally wounded by Orion. Is Orion supposed to be a multiversal badass now too? He seemed like the same old Orion when they found his corpse. And apparently, despite being "god incarnate" this time, Darkseid was actually taken down with even less of a fight than he has been at other times. Despite all the craziness going on in Final Crisis, it doesn't actually make him a formidable opponent.

I think you missed the point I made about Darkseid's supposed mind control. Scott Free believes Darkseid has mind control. Scott Free has never actually been subject to it, or seen it in action, he just assumes it is there. I have little difficulty believing everyone on Apokolips is raised with the idea that Darkseid can monitor and control their thoughts at will; he is, after all, essentially the deific version of Big Brother. However, there still remains the simply fact that Darkseid has never been shown to use either telepathy or mind control outside of GDS.

So, we basically have one statement from one character making the assumption that Darkseid has this power, vs. Darkseid's entire 40+ year history where he is never shown using it. I think the lack of feats carries more weight than one statement by Scott Free.

The scan of Darkseid and the Flash you showed is from the Super Powers line of comics, which were basically tie-ins to the TV show and toyline, and didn't really have anything to do with the normal DC Universe. Even if you did want to use them, they would give you pretty mixed results. Sure, in one instance he can tag the Flash. On the other hand, later he needed a machine to make his Omega Effect 1,000 times more powerful than normal just to destroy the Earth, and it was still stopped by just Dr. Fate and Superman. The Super Powers line is also where that infamous scene of Darkseid getting mugged in an alley comes from, if you've ever seen those scans and wondered what was up with them.

#38 Posted by Dextersinister (5808 posts) - - Show Bio

@Freefa11: You just sold his death in Final Crisis short, if he had been punched out yes it would have been bad but they thew the cosmic kitchen sink at him.

Even then he still come's back from that, GDS is set as one of those inevitable events in the DC timeline and Morrison intentionally or otherwise matched it up well with the disappearance of the new gods a millennium ago

#39 Edited by The_Imperator (1908 posts) - - Show Bio

@Freefa11: Alright, good point. Didn't know about the Falsh scan, thank you for pointing that out for me. He also was an avatar in the Anarky comic. But yes, I concede on his strength level based on the Doomsday fight. The point still stands though that Darkseid when fully manifested crushed the multiverse by existing, something he had never done while on Earth before; this heavily implies he was at least curtailing his power everytime he left Apokalips. On top of that, Darkseid can still survive being on the surface of the sun, punches from Sundipped Superman, and can trade blows with Superman normally (Supes can hold black holes/singularities in his hands). That alone sets a pretty high strength level.

#40 Posted by monarch_prime (377 posts) - - Show Bio

@Decoy Elite said:

Let's play the little game that we all play in any DBZ vs Darkseid thread.

Is there any reason to think that Freezia or King Cold can counter Omega Beams?

The answer is no, the answer is they both lose.

Now watch in awe as people low ball Darkseid while simultaneously playing up Freezia's speed far beyond what it actually was.

#DBZbattlethread

#41 Posted by stevon (1022 posts) - - Show Bio

@monarch_prime: Isn't it possible that they could be faster than the omega beams though? Even so, would the omega effect (aside from the omega sanction) even hurt them if they have been unable to hurt Superman or Wonder Woman's bracelets?

#42 Posted by Dextersinister (5808 posts) - - Show Bio

@stevon said:

@monarch_prime: Isn't it possible that they could be faster than the omega beams though? Even so, would the omega effect (aside from the omega sanction) even hurt them if they have been unable to hurt Superman or Wonder Woman's bracelets?

Before the Omega beams use to be an effect regardless of exactly how they worked they removed someone from existence and could bring someone back when used against famous characters such as Superman he would often banish instead of kill them, this was to powerful an effect for a bad guy going up against the League to maintain so it became little more than heat seeking laser beams. The sanction or whatever the hell he did to Cyborg Superman are the closest equivalent modern attacks to how it originally operated and the ones I would expect him to use if fighting to the best of his abilities.

On the idea if the basic beams could hut him it's possible based on the idea that an opponent cancels out KI attacks with their own KI but regardless of power level they have been susceptible to heat from something as basic as lava.

#43 Posted by stevon (1022 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dextersinister: but did Darkseid use the Omega Beams on people stronger than Superman before he used them on Superman? I recall him using them on Desaad, but he isn't particularly strong.

I also think it's pretty hard to put characters in differently functioning universes against eachother, especially with DBZ due to the ki/powerlevel arguments that keep popping up that don't seem to make that much sense. I remember someone on another board once calculated that Superman's powerlevel would be a measly 57, but maybe that's bad math.

#44 Posted by Dextersinister (5808 posts) - - Show Bio

@stevon: He used them on Cyborg Superman who is often portrayed as stronger than Superman.

#45 Posted by stevon (1022 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dextersinister: Yeah, but I think he trapped him inside a small orb though. The fight wirth frieza is only won by death. Though I suppose he could crush the orb in his hands if he wanted to. He could also probably turn Frieza to stone, which he has done in the past with the Omega Effect.

Still wondering if it can catch him though. I thought Frieza could move faster than sound, or than the eye can see, I know the OE traditionally is supposed to persist until it hits the target, but even if the instances were Darkseid couldn't use his OE to it's fullest against Supes or Wonder Woman was bad writing, it seems canon and consistent, without the avatar or desaad in disguise excuse.

#46 Posted by Dextersinister (5808 posts) - - Show Bio

@stevon: The orb thing seemed to be a choice, remember C Supes is a recurring villain so they needed to give Darkseid a plot reason why he wouldn't want him dead.

#47 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

Darkseid's omega beam turns Supergirl into dust, but for some reason Superman get only minor injury out of it despite their similar physiology.

#48 Edited by The_Imperator (1908 posts) - - Show Bio

@AngryHulks said:

Darkseid's omega beam turns Supergirl into dust, but for some reason Superman get only minor injury out of it despite their similar physiology.

No they didn't. In the Superman/Batman comic, she was teleported out at the last second, to trick Darkseid.

EDIT: Found some of the scans I was looking for. Odin says Darkseid has been absorbing all the universe's pantheons, and another scan shows Darkseid using his Omega Beams on a god. So, evidence points to them being used to absorb powers. Darkseid also in Final Crisis says he has never fully manifested, so Avatars in all encounters make sense. Darkseid also had the ALE way back in some action comics in the 600s, he just didn't turn it on Earth until FC/Rock of Ages. On top of that, he was able to create beings like Takion that could take on/defeat Firestorm and other JLA members.

#49 Posted by BlackWind (5670 posts) - - Show Bio

@AngryHulks said:

Darkseid's omega beam turns Supergirl into dust, but for some reason Superman get only minor injury out of it despite their similar physiology.

Written by Loeb, just saying.

#50 Edited by Freefa11 (2337 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dextersinister said:

@Freefa11: You just sold his death in Final Crisis short, if he had been punched out yes it would have been bad but they thew the cosmic kitchen sink at him.

Hardly. For a story supposedly presenting him as more powerful than he has ever appeared before, and a multiversal threat, he was beaten by surprisingly little. First off, if he had the Anti-Life Equation, then his confrontation with Batman should have ended the instant he said "Embrace Anti-Life and be whole." But it doesn't, and Batman shoots him. Then the Flashes hit him with his own Omega Beams and the Black Racer, and then Superman sings him to death.

In all that, all he manages to do is BFR a street level character. He couldn't prevent being shot, he couldn't stop the Flashes, he had no defense at all against the Black Racer. Superman was only slowed down by using a bunch of civilians as a meat shield, but otherwise left totally uninjured. Darkseid himself, once confronted in person, is actually defeated quickly and easily, and doesn't even harm anyone.

Even then he still come's back from that, GDS is set as one of those inevitable events in the DC timeline and Morrison intentionally or otherwise matched it up well with the disappearance of the new gods a millennium ago

In what way? Pretty much any storyline that involved Darkseid getting killed would default to being the defeat he suffered before the Great Darkness Saga. I suspect back when Levitz was writing GDS, he probably assumed Darkseid was recovering from his defeat in JLA 185. Plus, in GDS they find his body recovering on Apokolips. In Final Crisis he dies on Earth.

@The_Imperator said:

@Freefa11: Alright, good point. Didn't know about the Falsh scan, thank you for pointing that out for me. He also was an avatar in the Anarky comic.

Right. But again, that appearance just says he was an avatar in that appearance. It doesn't say anything about him being an avatar at any other time. He can create avatars, but that doesn't mean we can just assume any appearance of his we don't like was an avatar; we need some sort of indication of this being the case. We know that Superman can create robot duplicates of himself, but we can't just claim all of his low-showings are actually robot duplicates.

The point still stands though that Darkseid when fully manifested crushed the multiverse by existing, something he had never done while on Earth before; this heavily implies he was at least curtailing his power everytime he left Apokalips.

I'm pretty sure most of that had to do with Mandrakk and the vampire Monitors feeding on the Orrery of Worlds, as shown in Superman Beyond 3D. It makes perfect sense that they could do this, and that's actually the first indication we get from the TPB of what's going on. Later on Morrison focuses more on Darkseid, and leaves Mandrakk as almost an afterthought. It's almost like he was retconning his own story as he went along, and I'm not entirely sure what it was supposed to be (wouldn't be surprised if he was basically on acid or shrooms at that point).

And why claim it was just when he left Apokolips? He certainly didn't have that kind of power on Apokolips either. Not even close. Look how easily the Hal Jordan-Spectre dropped him. I know the Spectre is powerful, but completely stomping a multiversal entity? Not likely.

Even ignoring the Mandrakk aspect, the multiversal collapse in Final Crisis seemed to be more a reaction the universe was having to Darkseid's death, rather than anything Darkseid was deliberately doing himself. It makes little sense for him to bother conquering the Earth when he's simultaneously destroying everything that exists.

On top of that, Darkseid can still survive being on the surface of the sun, punches from Sundipped Superman, and can trade blows with Superman normally (Supes can hold black holes/singularities in his hands). That alone sets a pretty high strength level.

Darkseid being comparable in strength to post-crisis Superman isn't really in question. Comparable to pre-crisis Superman though? Especially his totally wonky feats from the Silver Age? That's a little much.

@The_Imperator said:

EDIT: Found some of the scans I was looking for. Odin says Darkseid has been absorbing all the universe's pantheons, and another scan shows Darkseid using his Omega Beams on a god. So, evidence points to them being used to absorb powers. Darkseid also in Final Crisis says he has never fully manifested, so Avatars in all encounters make sense. Darkseid also had the ALE way back in some action comics in the 600s, he just didn't turn it on Earth until FC/Rock of Ages. On top of that, he was able to create beings like Takion that could take on/defeat Firestorm and other JLA members.

If you could post these scans, go ahead. I do not recall him directly encountering any other gods though, besides other New Gods. There despite Byrne's statements about absorbing pantheons, he never displays Darkseid as being greatly more powerful than he had ever been before. Darkseid's statements in Final Crisis about "manifesting" hold about as much water with me as his statements about being infinite or all powerful. Darkseid obtained the ALE in the pre-crisis Return of the New Gods 19, but all indications are he lost it after being defeated, and I don't recall him getting any of it back post-crisis as early as AC 600. He created Stayne around the same time Takion was created, which was when the Source was all screwed up. Takion's creation was a completely unprecedented event, and there's no indication it could be done under normal circumstances at all. No reason to figure Stayne would be any easier to duplicate.