Pre Crisis Darkseid wins easy... Pre Crisis Darkseid has already put Pre Crisis Kryptonians and Pre Crisis Daxomites on their ass... so Superman Prime would be nothing more than a walk in the park for PC Darkseid
@Ancient_0f_Days: Darkseid's appearance during Legion crossover was retconned beause he kind of jobbed against Superman towards the end, and its not pre-crisis but the first story arc after COIE.
@god_spawn said:
aww spite thread someone lock it ive done better threads with street level characters =(
Replying to your very old post, contrary to what people are making it out to be, unless we are using a very amped up Darkseid from Great Darkness Saga, this isnt even close to being a stomp.
@Ancient_0f_Days: Darkseid's appearance during Legion crossover was retconned beause he kind of jobbed against Superman towards the end, and its not pre-crisis but the first story arc after COIE.
Meh.....he's still gonna choke SMP he can teleport him around with the OE too, send him through time or something.
@Killemall: SMP is a bronze age. Darkseid fought SA IIRC
No SMP isnt bronze age Superman, there is absolutely no indication of that. Superboy Prime is a superman from Universe Prime, people try and compare him with Pre Crisis Superman, when Supergirl a being from same universe isnt anywhere close to Pre crisis level, the whole universe was retconned. Furthermore, Superman prime is him with a massive OA amp who went toe to toe with a guy who mopped the floor with 39 Captain Atoms and 3 Supermen, and actually won.
Secondly Darkseid wasnt even created during Silver Age, and Darkseid in pre-crisis has never fought Superman, he has however fought Superboy and Supergirl during Great Darkness Saga, and he was amped with the power of Legion's Orb, Exaclibur, power of Mordru, power of Time Trapper, and power of Darkness (which people try and claim was Darkseid;s own power which i still have seen no proof of).
@Ancient_0f_Days said:
Meh.....he's still gonna choke SMP he can teleport him around with the OE too, send him through time or something.
Maybe :) i was just correcting you on the scan, i think Prime has better chance of winning given Darkseid's lack of feat, and pre-crisis Darkseid, coming to post crisis continuity and his conversation with current darkseid pretty much seemed like him saying current Darkseid is more powerful, i can look up for the scan if you are interested, i dont know the issue number though.
@Ancient_0f_Days: Darkseid's appearance during Legion crossover was retconned beause he kind of jobbed against Superman towards the end, and its not pre-crisis but the first story arc after COIE.
@god_spawn said:
aww spite thread someone lock it ive done better threads with street level characters =(
Replying to your very old post, contrary to what people are making it out to be, unless we are using a very amped up Darkseid from Great Darkness Saga, this isnt even close to being a stomp.
This is what I was thinking. I'd probably take Darkseid in the end, but SMP is an absolute beast.
Meh.....he's still gonna choke SMP he can teleport him around with the OE too, send him through time or something.
Maybe :) i was just correcting you on the scan, i think Prime has better chance of winning given Darkseid's lack of feat, and pre-crisis Darkseid, coming to post crisis continuity and his conversation with current darkseid pretty much seemed like him saying current Darkseid is more powerful, i can look up for the scan if you are interested, i dont know the issue number though.
Well, I have seen a scan of Darkseid downing PC Superman with a casual beam.
But I think I know what scan you're talking about....I just think PC Darkseid's feats should include GDS regardless of the time, otherwise that's like saying PC Superman can't be towing planets since he only did it as a kid. But it shouldn't matter since they were both in the same continuity.
Replying to your very old post, contrary to what people are making it out to be, unless we are using a very amped up Darkseid from Great Darkness Saga, this isnt even close to being a stomp.
Replying to your very old post, contrary to what people are making it out to be, unless we are using a very amped up Darkseid from Great Darkness Saga, this isnt even close to being a stomp.
This way both you and At_Phantom should get the message.
He was weakened to begin with, but he wakes up with the power of Darkness. Then on he find and absorbs the power from Legion's Orb, then Excalibur, then Mordru, then time trapper and most of the feats people mentioned are done. His powers were decreasing along the way, but Legion's Orb, Exaclibur are all external amps.
@Killemall: but he was just restoring power he'd lost, even though he had the power of darkness, he wasn't amped, he was restoring power that was already his.
Replying to your very old post, contrary to what people are making it out to be, unless we are using a very amped up Darkseid from Great Darkness Saga, this isnt even close to being a stomp.
Enough of your crazy talk Killemall, they mentioned that he was weaker in the GDS to avoid stepping on Kirby's toes in case he ever wanted to finish the new gods story line. He mentioned beating Mordru because of what he was not because of mystical baubles and that Highfather and Orion weren't able to throw down not because they didn't absorb the power of others but because they hadn't recovered as much as Darkseid had.
The real reason for the last part was to allow Highfather and Orion to beat on him enough so the Legion could actually contribute.
@Killemall: but he was just restoring power he'd lost, even though he had the power of darkness, he wasn't amped, he was restoring power that was already his.
Would you happen to have anything to substantiate that? How do we know he wasnt amped?
@Dextersinister said:
Enough of your crazy talk Killemall, they mentioned that he was weaker in the GDS to avoid stepping on Kirby's toes in case he ever wanted to finish the new gods story line.
Its easy to call someone's argument crazy talk, lets see you substantiate that then.
He mentioned beating Mordru because of what he was not because of mystical baubles and that Highfather and Orion weren't able to throw down not because they didn't absorb the power of others but because they hadn't recovered as much as Darkseid had.
Ok this is new, where exactly has this been mentioned???
The real reason for the last part was to allow Highfather and Orion to beat on him enough so the Legion could actually contribute.
The only reason Darkseid backed off was because he "knew" a whole army of Superman was heading towards his way.
I still dont see anything to substantiate he wasnt amp, despite having on panel absorbed the power of Legion's orb, excalibur, Mordru and time trapper? So unless you have anything to actually substantiate that, might want to refrain calling people "crazy talk"
He was weakened to begin with, but he wakes up with the power of Darkness. Then on he find and absorbs the power from Legion's Orb, then Excalibur, then Mordru, then time trapper and most of the feats people mentioned are done. His powers were decreasing along the way, but Legion's Orb, Exaclibur are all external amps.
First, I fail to see what Darkness has to do with anything, since that is quite obviously his own power that he possessed even before he woke up in the 31st century.
Second, Darkseid absorbs these objects and everything, but never once does he mention that he is now more powerful than before. In fact even after he absorbs all these items he still continues talking like he's still diminished. There's simply no evidence in the comic that he was more powerful than he normally would be.
He was weakened to begin with, but he wakes up with the power of Darkness. Then on he find and absorbs the power from Legion's Orb, then Excalibur, then Mordru, then time trapper and most of the feats people mentioned are done. His powers were decreasing along the way, but Legion's Orb, Exaclibur are all external amps.
First, I fail to see what Darkness has to do with anything, since that is quite obviously his own power that he possessed even before he woke up in the 31st century.
Second, Darkseid absorbs these objects and everything, but never once does he mention that he is now more powerful than before. In fact even after he absorbs all these items he still continues talking like he's still diminished. There's simply no evidence in the comic that he was more powerful than he normally would be.
plus, didn't he say in one of them that he has gotten old and weak? Also mentioning that he must restore his power? I cannot find them, I've seen them before but they're hard to find on google.
Ok this is new, where exactly has this been mentioned???
He says he has reached a point when taking the energy of artifacts is no longer enough, if was taking their power rather than recharging why would there be a cap and proceeds on to Mordru. When battling Mordru he says you are the mightiest mortal wizard but am neither mortal or wizard saying that he is something greater a god. When Mordru was going to have his powers restored it was with energy not with the actual powers themselves showing that he had simply be juiced not had the powers themselves taken.
The only reason Darkseid backed off was because he "knew" a whole army of Superman was heading towards his way.
After undoing Darkseids reality manipulation and empowering the Legion Highfather says himself that my powers are but a shadow if what once dwelled within in me and later on says that he is but a pale ghost of his former self. The ensuing fight with Orion and the Legion weakens him enough to lose his grip on 3 billion forcing him to retreat from the incoming army.
I remember you basing this on the idea that he called his power the great darkness but that was before the reveal and Mordru's minions refer to Darkseid himself as the GD. If this was a Marvel event with Galactus in his place it would have been silly to refer to his power as the power cosmic.
First, I fail to see what Darkness has to do with anything, since that is quite obviously his own power that he possessed even before he woke up in the 31st century.
It was never actually said the Darkness was his power but that part i can concede, in fact that was never something i pressed on anyways.
Second, Darkseid absorbs these objects and everything, but never once does he mention that he is now more powerful than before. In fact even after he absorbs all these items he still continues talking like he's still diminished. There's simply no evidence in the comic that he was more powerful than he normally would be.
This is where i disagree. So in Darkseid chronology, we have 1 series where he goes around absorbing power of various artifacts, and we know that in this series his feats are significantly better than what he has done in any other series, there is also no proof to suggest the 2 additional amp he got from Excalibur and Legion Orb, simply restored Darkseid to his normal power level, i think the only safe assumption is he was amped.
Can you come up with evidence other than GDS to suggest Darkseid is indeed powerful enough to mind control 3 billion Daxamite, and fight LOSH and win simultaneous?
If Darkseid was indeed this powerful why was he scared to death when Orion when bloodlusted during New God, Vol 1, 12.
There are many things that point to him being amp.
@Ancient_0f_Days said:
plus, didn't he say in one of them that he has gotten old and weak? Also mentioning that he must restore his power? I cannot find them, I've seen them before but they're hard to find on google.
Yes and? The whole point of the argument was GDS is one of the series where Darkseid liked had power from external source, and GDS is the only series where he performs feats, way beyond what he has normally done.
@Dextersinister said:
I remember you basing this on the idea that he called his power the great darkness but that was before the reveal and Mordru's minions refer to Darkseid himself as the GD. If this was a Marvel event with Galactus in his place it would have been silly to refer to his power as the power cosmic.
I dont understand what Galactus or marvel event has anything to do with it.
And i am still unconvinced that Darkness was his powers, but we know for certain the power from the orb, the power from Excaibur, the power from Mordru, the power from time trapper, were definitely not his powers.
@Killemall: I take no responsibility for anything I say when I first started.
GS i think you misunderstand my intent man. I am not trying to say you were wrong, or anything like that. This is an old thread, you believe its one sided and you are now a mod, so i though you would lock the thread when you see it. All i am doing to trying to prevent you from locking the thread man, nothing else.
No disrespect intended, you know me better than that man :)
@Killemall: I had some comments buried among yours.
He says he has reached a point when taking the energy of artifacts is no longer enough, if was taking their power rather than recharging why would there be a cap and proceeds on to Mordru. When battling Mordru he says you are the mightiest mortal wizard but am neither mortal or wizard saying that he is something greater a god. When Mordru was going to have his powers restored it was with energy not with the actual powers themselves showing that he had simply be juiced not had the powers themselves taken.
After undoing Darkseids reality manipulation and empowering the Legion Highfather says himself that unlike Darkseid who has had time to recover my powers are but a shadow of what once dwelled within in me and later on says that he is but a pale ghost of his former self. The ensuing fight with Orion and the Legion weakens him enough to lose his grip on 3 billion forcing him to retreat from the incoming army.
Also as I said in the above comment Mordru's minions in a later issue of the LOSH refer to Darkseid as the great darkness rather than empowered by the great darkness, the Galactus example was to show that if Darkseid had referred to his powers as something recognizable such as the omega force then the 2 readers who had actually read new gods would have got it.
Your asking for more showings but this is the only time where he cuts loose outside the 4th world so in terms of showings this is the low and the high, the rest had had smack individual's around or simply tell people to not mess with him. If pre-crisis Action Comics was based on Krypton with most of Clark's time spent sitting around on chairs, being a bastard and spouting science jargon then we need to base his abilities on the one arc where he actually goes to town.
He says he has reached a point when taking the energy of artifacts is no longer enough, if was taking their power rather than recharging why would there be a cap and proceeds on to Mordru.
I dont actually remember that but will go through GDS tomorrow and let you know, not that it should have any bearing, given the power he did take was from an external source.
When battling Mordru he says you are the mightiest mortal wizard but am neither mortal or wizard saying that he is something greater a god.
Or he was just being arrogant, which more fits to his character, as many other characters have.
When Mordru was going to have his powers restored it was with energy not with the actual powers themselves showing that he had simply be juiced not had the powers themselves taken.
Still the power he stole was Mordru's power and not Darkseid's own and this doesnt apply to the second person Darkseid actively steals powers from, i.e. Time Trapper.
After undoing Darkseids reality manipulation and empowering the Legion Highfather says himself that unlike Darkseid who has had time to recover my powers are but a shadow of what once dwelled within in me and later on says that he is but a pale ghost of his former self. The ensuing fight with Orion and the Legion weakens him enough to lose his grip on 3 billion forcing him to retreat from the incoming army.
And?
I think i am missing something not sure where you are going at. Also Darkseid power at that time had diminished, after all every time he uses his powers it diminishes, however the power he was using was simply not his own.
Also as I said in the above comment Mordru's minions in a later issue of the LOSH refer to Darkseid as the great darkness rather than empowered by the great darkness, the Galactus example was to show that if Darkseid had referred to his powers as something recognizable such as the omega force then the 2 readers who had actually read new gods would have got it.
While i have not read the issue you are referring to, nor do i have the access to the issue, apart from giving a possible explanation in regards to the power of Darkness it doesnt change the fact that power of Orb, Exaclibur, Mordru and Time Trapper were not his own to being with.
Your asking for more showings but this is the only time where he cuts loose outside the 4th world so in terms of showings this is the low and the high, the rest had had smack individual's around or simply tell people to not mess with him. If pre-crisis Action Comics was based on Krypton with most of Clark's time spent sitting around on chairs, being a bastard and spouting science jargon then we need to base his abilities on the one arc where he actually goes to town.
First, like all other character, if Superman having not done anything, all of a suddent, in a story far removed from his chronology as it takes place 1000s of year in the future, having absorbed few power artifacts along the way, ends up doing stuffs he normally has never been shown to do, then yes we believe he was amped and the showing becomes questionable.
A classic marvel character who has the exact same problem is Malestorm, and thats still considered an amp he got during Infinity saga.
@Killemall: Chronology is of little importance, your example would have worked better if you had not mentioned an amp which is the important factor.
You dismissed one of the most important points a weakened Highfather points out that he cannot put up much of a fight not because of some newly acquired powers Darkseid has required but because he has not recovered as much as he has. Also your assuming that he is weakening from some energy loss over time which is never actually stated but would it not be more likely that he says he's weakened from the beaten he's just taken from Orion, Highfather and the empowered Legion.
Well, I have seen a scan of Darkseid downing PC Superman with a casual beam.
That's a post crisis appearance, and this is what happened on the next page
Action Comics 586
But I think I know what scan you're talking about....I just think PC Darkseid's feats should include GDS regardless of the time, otherwise that's like saying PC Superman can't be towing planets since he only did it as a kid. But it shouldn't matter since they were both in the same continuity.
GDS takes place a full 1,000 years in the future from Darkseid's normal timeline. It is more like saying just because Superman can do something, doesn't mean Superboy can do it too.
@Dextersinister said:
Your asking for more showings but this is the only time where he cuts loose outside the 4th world so in terms of showings this is the low and the high, the rest had had smack individual's around or simply tell people to not mess with him. If pre-crisis Action Comics was based on Krypton with most of Clark's time spent sitting around on chairs, being a bastard and spouting science jargon then we need to base his abilities on the one arc where he actually goes to town.
Darkseid cut loose, and was amped by the ALE, in Adventure comics 460, and all it took was Highfather and Orion to defeat him. Darkseid had a perfect opportunity to cut loose on both the JLA and the JSA at the same time in JLA 185, but he was defeated again, and all it took was Firestorm. Darkseid, the guy you are claiming at normal levels surpasses Mordru and Timetrapper together, was solo'd by Firestorm. Easily. He also would have had every reason to cut loose in New Gods 12, but instead ran in fear from Orion, and got the worse of their brief exchange.
Simple fact is there is nothing pre-GDS that even hints at him naturally possessing the kind of power he displays there, and that includes two defeats and running from Orion. Then all of a sudden it turns out he's really more powerful than Mordru and Timetrapper combined? And you wonder why it could be viewed as far more reasonable that he was amped, than that he just conveniently hid all that power in ALL of his previous appearances?
Even just his capabilities throw doubt on it. Are there any instances of PC Darkseid employing telepathy, let alone planetary level mind control, like he does in GDS? I don't think it was ever one of his powers, and a lot of the set up Kirby creates involving Darkseid's search for the ALE inside the minds of humanity should have been trivial if Darkseid could have just enslaved the entire human race in a moment with his TP. On the other hand, TP is definitely one of Mordru's powers, so conveniently employing that after draining him at least could provide an easy explanation of where it came from all of a sudden.
Pretty much the only real indication DS was was weakened during GDS was a statement from himself, which he didn't make until after he started losing. There are also some statements to the effect that his memories of the past are a bit hazy. To me, all this really indicates is that Darkseid is being a sore loser with a massive ego. The idea that mentally dominating the entire race of Daxamites and almost taking out the LoSH to boot is supposed to be sub-par for him is pretty ridiculous to me; he had plenty of previous appearances before GDS to establish his power level, and none of them came close to that.
@Killemall: Chronology is of little importance, your example would have worked better if you had not mentioned an amp which is the important factor.
Partly agree with this partly disagree. But then its DC so most likely chronology isnt as imporatant, i am more of a marvel person and chronology there is very imporant, because we have a universe in Marvel verse, very similar to LOSH's universe, called GOTG verse, Earth 691, which like LOSH is a future. However, Marvel has the whole idea of having multiple futures of 1 universe and power level can change, and hence a feat from Galactus done in Earth 691 is generally not considered canon for Galactus of Earth 616, despite Earth 691 being a future version.
I am not sure if thats how DC works, so this is mostly inconsequential.
You dismissed one of the most important points a weakened points out that he cannot put up much of a fight not because of some newly acquired powers Darkseid has required but because he has not recovered as much as he has. Also your assuming that he is weakening from some energy loss over time which is never actually stated but would it not be more likely that he says he's weakened from the beaten he's just taken from Orion, Highfather and the empowered Legion.
When Darkseid awakens he himself says his power has decreased as it decreases with time, i took that as a reference to him being weakened the more power he uses. We can just chuck that away, assume it doesnt, doesnt actually change what i stated does it. The reason Darkseid backed off was because an entire army of Superman was comming. We also know Darkseid is closer to Orion and Highfather in terms of powers, specially given Darkseid was helpless against a bloodlusted Orion in New Gods vol 1, 12, normally though Darkseid > Orion, no disagreement there.
But the point was Orion himself isnt much higher than Superman, let alone capable of beating someone like say Time Trapper, even if he wasnt in his realm. That points to the fact that Darkseid should be either, and he frankly doesnt have feats to suggest he can. But in GDS he makes a mockery of Time Trapper in his own realm, with relative ease.
There is good grounds to believe Darkseid was amped, and without amped should have problem with someone like Superman Prime. Of course the GDS version should stomp Prime, any other version would likely be different. Its very hard to ignore an amp, which clearly puts him at level far beyond what we have seen Darkseid normally operate into.
Being a issue out of chronology also puts few minor concerned, but those can well be ignored, as i do not fully understand how DC cosmology actually works.
It was never actually said the Darkness was his power but that part
It kinda was. Brainiac 5 specifically calls Darkness his trademark. That's how he recognizes him as Darkseid in the first place.
@Killemall said:
This is where i disagree. So in Darkseid chronology, we have 1 series where he goes around absorbing power of various artifacts, and we know that in this series his feats are significantly better than what he has done in any other series, there is also no proof to suggest the 2 additional amp he got from Excalibur and Legion Orb, simply restored Darkseid to his normal power level, i think the only safe assumption is he was amped.
Can you come up with evidence other than GDS to suggest Darkseid is indeed powerful enough to mind control 3 billion Daxamite, and fight LOSH and win simultaneous?
If Darkseid was indeed this powerful why was he scared to death when Orion when bloodlusted during New God, Vol 1, 12.
There are many things that point to him being amp.
We're talking about two different things here. Your assumption that he's amped is based solely on his performance in GDS as opposed to other pre-crisis showings. That's not a bad assumption per se, but it is not the only possibility. My point is that there is nothing within GDS itself supporting your opinion. GDS in fact constantly acts like he is still a shadow of his former self.
There are other quotes as this. Note that he mentions nothing about the powers he absorbed. He is constantly only comparing himself to how he was a thousand years ago.
Also, for the record, Darkseid was scared to death when Highfather restored Orion in GDS too.
#46
Posted by laflux
(5740 posts)
- 3 months, 23 days ago
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@Killemall said:
@laflux said:
@Killemall: Come on Killemall. You must have loled a bit seeing at seeing the mighty God_Spawn in his earlier debating days :)
Meh, everyone starts that way, Bane was debating on how Lady Shiva should be able to beat Spiderman :p but hey things change.
I at one point though Phoenix was >> Spectre , and i honestly did, even debated using a lot of wiki, thing change man :p things change.
I thought that Spider-Man would curb-stomp Logan when I first joined and that his win over Firelord was legit, so yes we all get better, well most of us >.>
It kinda was. Brainiac 5 specifically calls Darkness his trademark. That's how he recognizes him as Darkseid in the first place.
Fair enough.
We're talking about two different things here. Your assumption that he's amped is based solely on his performance in GDS as opposed to other pre-crisis showings. That's not a bad assumption per se, but it is not the only possibility. My point is that there is nothing within GDS itself supporting your opinion. GDS in fact constantly acts like he is still a shadow of his former self.
There are other quotes as this. Note that he mentions nothing about the powers he absorbed. He is constantly only comparing himself to how he was a thousand years ago.
Also, for the record, Darkseid was scared to death when Highfather restored Orion in GDS too.
I do not agree with this, like at all. We clear she him take powers from 2 additional external sources the legion's orb and excalibur. Since we do not know (or at least I have no clue) how powerful these artifacts are we can assume this doesnt amp him. How about the power he takes from Mordru and Time Trapper, who honestly should be a lot more powerful than him given their chronology vs Darkseid's. At least Mordru we can make an exceptation as he was just recently freed from his crystal prision, how do you explain him beating and then absorbing power from Time Trapper, in his own domain, let alone believe that power of being such as him wont amp him?
Then the panel cant be take out of context. He uses a significant amount of power before speaking those panel, which are pretty much in a gap of few pages. He uses his power to mindcontrol 30 billion Daxamite, he also uses his power to fight LOSH, he also uses his powers to one shot Mon El a LOT earlier, he also uses his power before that to beat Superboy.
After such massive use of power sure he likely was weakened. Here are the complete list of scans, not much for you i am pretty sure you have read the whole stuffs but for people reading this argument who likely havent.
Also you cant ignore an established chronology, if his power level in one series is clearly a LOT better than any other times, and we actually see him taking from additional source, it should be an extremely reasonable assumption to assume he was amped.
Not sure why people are so fond with this scan, its from PC Darkseid, in fact its not even current Darkseid but rather Desak as Darkseid entire appeared during Legends story arc was retconned (Superman v2 Issue 03, the source of the scan if anyone is interested)
And if you notice in the top right part of the scan, Clark was trying to NOT show off his powers as he though Darkseid got Clark by mistake when he aimed for Superman.
Darkseid has pretty good feats, this really isnt one of them.
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