Pre-crisis Darkseid vs Dormammu

@ Killemall, Ok then, let's just agree to disagree then lol. And I just want to point out that it was you who accused me of making things up...I merely told you, you were misunderstanding something I said earlier. But now that that's covered, moving on...

Zoom can also stop time as you just admitted yourself...and control time however he wants to make himself faster. Flash even admitted this when he fought him...this is why Flash had to absorb speed of other flash's just to keep up with Zoom. My point is, time manipulation doesn't=instant universal threat..SA Superman also controlled time, and while he was O.P. he wasn't exactly a Universal threat daily...

And I'm pretty sure DS would one shot SS with his Omega Effect/Force...in fact that topic has been done already and majority already feel clearly Darkseid would win...

I'm not discrediting anything, I'm merely saying while Dorm has some impressive feats so does Darkseid...and he wouldn't be as easily defeated as you think especially with the Source stepping in half the time and even that, Darkseid has drove the Source crazy which effected other Skyfathers doing so...and being as how New Gods can create Universes I'd say that's pretty damn impressive. BTW he did that with 1/6 of ALE...combined with his own power. So actually, no there was no strawman argument. You merely took what I said out of context.

My point is that DS at his best is typically on most people's top most powerful DC's list...be it top 10, top 15 or 20 etc. It just seems like, you're overrating Dorm where this character is hardly relevant in Marvel comics...I know he's from 616 MU as a reason for him hardly showing up much like Mxy from the 5th Dimension in DCU, he hardly shows up but is uber powerful...but my point is, there are many other MU characters typically universal threats and not weakened outside of their realms...like say Dorm and Mephisto are.

I know Superman Prime 1 needed the DNA sample from Solaris, but my point is that's all he needed from that he still created Lois by himself besides having all the knowledge of the universe, creating his own, being literally invincible etc at that point. Still that being said, Dorm unlike SMP1 million isn't weakened by anything and has his own universe...you thinking it's a "cop out" is your opinion, you want a cop out? Read Pre-ret beyonder not just a cop out but beyond PIS...thus why it was retconned..How can you say all knowledge of the Universe is "so what"? lol I love how you downplay a crucial fact...very amusing. Talk to me once Dorm has all the knowledge of the Universe, creates his own or isn't weakened outside of his own little realm. 15,0-00 years sundipped having no weaknesses, even said welcome to my universe...of the future, recreating lois and others coming to him for help proves he was a universal threat....he was literally God practically no matter how you want to cut it, he was THAT powerful sorry but when you're that powerful you don't NEED feats...period. So by your logic, Presence or God's who hardly do anything in comics "can't win or aren't a threat because they have little to no feats"? That's nonsense...sometimes if a character is just THAT powerful it's sheer common sense.

DS doesn't really need the AIE, it's just a hobby to him more or less that he wants and my point was it really only works on certain people. He still has other great feats like defeating other new gods and it took 5 SkyFathers who had to merge to take Darkseid on, the fact that he's equal in power to is to 5 skyfather's says a lot,...not to mention he broke the source wall on his own, they did it as a team. As well as resulting in him killing loads of pantheons in the process..

One story that proves he is not only capable of destroying galaxies and other planets but he can transport Apokolips into other planets such as an older story where he was going to transport his planet into Earth 2 and thus destroying Earth 2...so there's your proof of Darkseid being more then capable of busting an entire planet...

Darkseid creates a weapon that attacks the Source, and thus drove all the other New Gods insane...totally corrupting the Source as this was how he also came back from the dead in on story.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/...Godsv301-07.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/...Godsv301-08.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/...Godsv301-11.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/...Godsv301-12.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/...Godsv301-13.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/...Godsv301-14.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/...Godsv301-15.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/...Godsv301-21.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/...Godsv301-22.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/...Godsv301-23.jpg

Hurting the Source>>>Creating other Dimensions, in case you're not aware the Source is one of the most powerful things in DCU...

DS resurrecting Dassaad after killing him previously...instantly

You questioned DS "creating Demons" well here you go...clearly proof of him being the creator of the Parademons as well as other shadow demons under his control:

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/DeathOfTheNewGods03_02.jpG

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/DeathOfTheNewGods03_03-04.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/...ewGods03_15.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/...ewGods03_16.jpg

If you want to be technical both Darkseid and Luthor brought Doomsday back, then later on DS created clones which were shown in Superman/Batman: Apocalypse..but got vaped by Superman's heat vision in seconds. Yes, I'm well aware I read the arch and have the movie.

And yes, DS's powers have been known to be inconsistent but believe what you want, clearly you can't see facts over your own arrogance...not my problem. Like I said, that's why most DS fans and Superman fans admit his power showings are inconsistent over the years. And they're right. Again, with some of which scans you posted yourself just prove my point. In some fights Superman takes his beams like nothing, in others he gets pushed back tremendously and gets hurt or Koed from them..nuffs said. Again, it's all on how the writer wants to write these characters.

What I said earlier about Spectre being tagged/hurt by DS's omega beams...yet even you admitted Spectre is 100x more powerful, should prove that if Spectre can be hurt by his Omega effect so can Dorm...a far LESSER character in power...very few things if anything can not be hurt or at least somewhat effected by DS's Omega Beams..

BTW to take up your challenge, Darkseid can activate other dimensions or transport anyone to other dimensions via his Boom Tubes...

Darkseid has also eluded/cloaked the entire planet of Apocalypse from the Anti-Monitor(a known universal destroyer..) this is by far equally impressive to Drom battling Eternity as far as I'm concerned...he knew he couldn't fight it so he merely outsmarted it, to me it's the same difference. Be it outsmarting a Universal threat or fighting it head on is equally impressive...

Darkseid resurrecting his parademons instantly in front of Wonder Woman...from a previous battle where she just killed him..he says "only when he chooses, will they be allowed to die"

Orion confirming Darkseid created the parademons himself... ^ ^

While yes it was a combined effort to crack Imperiex's armor, between Superman, Kyle and Darkseid still...without his omega beams, it wouldn't have cracked...and Superman even got hurt here where as DS did not.

@Alyssabird said:

Lol, Darkseid should win.

I agree, DS at his best can take Dorm. Check out my last post, Darkseid apparently outsmarted and beat Anti-Monitor by cloaking the entire planet of apocalypse from it's view. A known universal buster...avoided. By far as impressive as anything Dorm has done..

@Vaeternus said:

@ Killemall, Ok then, let's just agree to disagree then lol. And I just want to point out that it was you who accused me of making things up...I merely told you, you were misunderstanding something I said earlier. But now that that's covered, moving on...

Zoom can also stop time as you just admitted yourself...and control time however he wants to make himself faster. Flash even admitted this when he fought him...this is why Flash had to absorb speed of other flash's just to keep up with Zoom. My point is, time manipulation doesn't=instant universal threat..SA Superman also controlled time, and while he was O.P. he wasn't exactly a Universal threat daily...

And I'm pretty sure DS would one shot SS with his Omega Effect/Force...in fact that topic has been done already and majority already feel clearly Darkseid would win...

I'm not discrediting anything, I'm merely saying while Dorm has some impressive feats so does Darkseid...and he wouldn't be as easily defeated as you think especially with the Source stepping in half the time and even that, Darkseid has drove the Source crazy which effected other Skyfathers doing so...and being as how New Gods can create Universes I'd say that's pretty damn impressive. BTW he did that with 1/6 of ALE...combined with his own power. So actually, no there was no strawman argument. You merely took what I said out of context.

My point is that DS at his best is typically on most people's top most powerful DC's list...be it top 10, top 15 or 20 etc. It just seems like, you're overrating Dorm where this character is hardly relevant in Marvel comics...I know he's from 616 MU as a reason for him hardly showing up much like Mxy from the 5th Dimension in DCU, he hardly shows up but is uber powerful...but my point is, there are many other MU characters typically universal threats and not weakened outside of their realms...like say Dorm and Mephisto are.

I know Superman Prime 1 needed the DNA sample from Solaris, but my point is that's all he needed from that he still created Lois by himself besides having all the knowledge of the universe, creating his own, being literally invincible etc at that point. Still that being said, Dorm unlike SMP1 million isn't weakened by anything and has his own universe...you thinking it's a "cop out" is your opinion, you want a cop out? Read Pre-ret beyonder not just a cop out but beyond PIS...thus why it was retconned..How can you say all knowledge of the Universe is "so what"? lol I love how you downplay a crucial fact...very amusing. Talk to me once Dorm has all the knowledge of the Universe, creates his own or isn't weakened outside of his own little realm. 15,0-00 years sundipped having no weaknesses, even said welcome to my universe...of the future, recreating lois and others coming to him for help proves he was a universal threat....he was literally God practically no matter how you want to cut it, he was THAT powerful sorry but when you're that powerful you don't NEED feats...period. So by your logic, Presence or God's who hardly do anything in comics "can't win or aren't a threat because they have little to no feats"? That's nonsense...sometimes if a character is just THAT powerful it's sheer common sense.

DS doesn't really need the AIE, it's just a hobby to him more or less that he wants and my point was it really only works on certain people. He still has other great feats like defeating other new gods and it took 5 SkyFathers who had to merge to take Darkseid on, the fact that he's equal in power to is to 5 skyfather's says a lot,...not to mention he broke the source wall on his own, they did it as a team. As well as resulting in him killing loads of pantheons in the process..

One story that proves he is not only capable of destroying galaxies and other planets but he can transport Apokolips into other planets such as an older story where he was going to transport his planet into Earth 2 and thus destroying Earth 2...so there's your proof of Darkseid being more then capable of busting an entire planet...

Darkseid creates a weapon that attacks the Source, and thus drove all the other New Gods insane...totally corrupting the Source as this was how he also came back from the dead in on story.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/...Godsv301-07.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/...Godsv301-08.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/...Godsv301-11.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/...Godsv301-12.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/...Godsv301-13.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/...Godsv301-14.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/...Godsv301-15.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/...Godsv301-21.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/...Godsv301-22.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/...Godsv301-23.jpg

Hurting the Source>>>Creating other Dimensions, in case you're not aware the Source is one of the most powerful things in DCU...

DS resurrecting Dassaad after killing him previously...instantly

You questioned DS "creating Demons" well here you go...clearly proof of him being the creator of the Parademons as well as other shadow demons under his control:

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/DeathOfTheNewGods03_02.jpG

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/DeathOfTheNewGods03_03-04.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/...ewGods03_15.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/...ewGods03_16.jpg

If you want to be technical both Darkseid and Luthor brought Doomsday back, then later on DS created clones which were shown in Superman/Batman: Apocalypse..but got vaped by Superman's heat vision in seconds. Yes, I'm well aware I read the arch and have the movie.

And yes, DS's powers have been known to be inconsistent but believe what you want, clearly you can't see facts over your own arrogance...not my problem. Like I said, that's why most DS fans and Superman fans admit his power showings are inconsistent over the years. And they're right. Again, with some of which scans you posted yourself just prove my point. In some fights Superman takes his beams like nothing, in others he gets pushed back tremendously and gets hurt or Koed from them..nuffs said. Again, it's all on how the writer wants to write these characters.

What I said earlier about Spectre being tagged/hurt by DS's omega beams...yet even you admitted Spectre is 100x more powerful, should prove that if Spectre can be hurt by his Omega effect so can Dorm...a far LESSER character in power...very few things if anything can not be hurt or at least somewhat effected by DS's Omega Beams..

BTW to take up your challenge, Darkseid can activate other dimensions or transport anyone to other dimensions via his Boom Tubes...

Darkseid has also eluded/cloaked the entire planet of Apocalypse from the Anti-Monitor(a known universal destroyer..) this is by far equally impressive to Drom battling Eternity as far as I'm concerned...he knew he couldn't fight it so he merely outsmarted it, to me it's the same difference. Be it outsmarting a Universal threat or fighting it head on is equally impressive...

Darkseid resurrecting his parademons instantly in front of Wonder Woman...from a previous battle where she just killed him..he says "only when he chooses, will they be allowed to die"

Orion confirming Darkseid created the parademons himself... ^ ^

While yes it was a combined effort to crack Imperiex's armor, between Superman, Kyle and Darkseid still...without his omega beams, it wouldn't have cracked...and Superman even got hurt here where as DS did not.

Hey hun can you send me these scans on my facebook because when I try and view them on here it just loads and loads=(.... My input on this is I feel it will be a good fight since D.S Omega Beams are really a sort of reality warping ability... In other words kind of like magic while Dorm is a mystic being, so I feel it comes down to who can out smart whom.

@darklord_apoc said:

Hey hun can you send me these scans on my facebook because when I try and view them on here it just loads and loads=(.... My input on this is I feel it will be a good fight since D.S Omega Beams are really a sort of reality warping ability... In other words kind of like magic while Dorm is a mystic being, so I feel it comes down to who can out smart whom.

Hey ;) sure, I can do that. I can post them to a new comic album then link you to it. Yeah, The Omega Effect/Source is very,very powerful...there are very few beings if any who won't be effected by it and DS can alter the power levels and what they do to people to from disintegrating someone to banishing or teleporting someone some where else entirely(like in Batman's case sending him back to the stone age, then once Darkseid Died Batman came back)

Yeah, DS's magic is literally godlike. But yeah while Dorm can do things DS can't, that doesn't mean DS can't deal with him(like he did to Anti-Monitor a Universal buster) DS's intelligence is very underrated.

@Vaeternus said:

@Alyssabird said:

Lol, Darkseid should win.

I agree, DS at his best can take Dorm. Check out my last post, Darkseid apparently outsmarted and beat Anti-Monitor by cloaking the entire planet of apocalypse from it's view. A known universal buster...avoided. By far as impressive as anything Dorm has done..

LOL hiding a planet is more impressive than destroying multiple planets, and you wonder why i say you are making fan fictions LOL

@Killemall said:

@Vaeternus said:

@Alyssabird said:

Lol, Darkseid should win.

I agree, DS at his best can take Dorm. Check out my last post, Darkseid apparently outsmarted and beat Anti-Monitor by cloaking the entire planet of apocalypse from it's view. A known universal buster...avoided. By far as impressive as anything Dorm has done..

LOL hiding a planet is more impressive than destroying multiple planets, and you wonder why i say you are making fan fictions LOL

Wow, Killemall is actually defending Dorm!!!?

That really shows how mismatched this battle is :P.

@Killemall said:

@Vaeternus said:

LOL hiding a planet is more impressive than destroying multiple planets, and you wonder why i say you are making fan fictions LOL

lol so you call a canon panel "fan fictions?" lol very amusing but no. Again, missing the point. The point is someone of far weaker power DEALT with a universal buster by merely outsmarting him. Do you always think so exclusively and narrowminded? The only way to deal with someone is to "physically beat them" really? hmm, because that's what Dr. Doom did vs. Beyonder and Galactus right? Did he outsmart them or "beat them physically"? hmm... Funny, you have no issues with that but if someone says Darkseid outsmarts Anti-Monitor you have issues with that? I see...

Sounds like bias to me lol. That is not making up anything, I'm pretty sure it's from a scan lol. Go complain to DC if you don't like it. Sucks to be debunked huh killemall?

You know you don't have to be a universal buster or entity to destroy multiple planets right? *cough*cough* SA Superman Cough*Cough...

@Vaeternus said:

lol so you call a canon panel "fan fictions?" lol very amusing but no. Again, missing the point. The point is someone of far weaker power DEALT with a universal buster by merely outsmarting him. Do you always think so exclusively and narrowminded? The only way to deal with someone is to "physically beat them" really? hmm, because that's what Dr. Doom did vs. Beyonder and Galactus right? Did he outsmart them or "beat them physically"? hmm... Funny, you have no issues with that but if someone says Darkseid outsmarts Anti-Monitor you have issues with that? I see...

Sounds like bias to me lol. That is not making up anything, I'm pretty sure it's from a scan lol. Go complain to DC if you don't like it. Sucks to be debunked huh killemall?

You know you don't have to be a universal buster or entity to destroy multiple planets right? *cough*cough* SA Superman Cough*Cough...

1. I am not saying the existence of feat is fan fiction, i am however saying clocking a planet is not better than destroying multiple planets.

2. No i am not narrowminded, you are delusional ;). Unless you are saying Darkseid hides himself from Dormammu and runs home crying dont see how that is relevant.

3. I did not say Dormammu was a unvierse buster i said he was a universal + powerhouse. 2 different thing mate.

Except he has... ^

@Killemall said:

@Vaeternus said:

lol so you call a canon panel "fan fictions?" lol very amusing but no. Again, missing the point. The point is someone of far weaker power DEALT with a universal buster by merely outsmarting him. Do you always think so exclusively and narrowminded? The only way to deal with someone is to "physically beat them" really? hmm, because that's what Dr. Doom did vs. Beyonder and Galactus right? Did he outsmart them or "beat them physically"? hmm... Funny, you have no issues with that but if someone says Darkseid outsmarts Anti-Monitor you have issues with that? I see...

Sounds like bias to me lol. That is not making up anything, I'm pretty sure it's from a scan lol. Go complain to DC if you don't like it. Sucks to be debunked huh killemall?

You know you don't have to be a universal buster or entity to destroy multiple planets right? *cough*cough* SA Superman Cough*Cough...

1. I am not saying the existence of feat is fan fiction, i am however saying clocking a planet is not better than destroying multiple planets.

2. No i am not narrowminded, you are delusional ;). Unless you are saying Darkseid hides himself from Dormammu and runs home crying dont see how that is relevant.

3. I did not say Dormammu was a unvierse buster i said he was a universal + powerhouse. 2 different thing mate.

Oh really? But you just did...and I quote if you don't mind sir.

@Killemall said:

@Vaeternus said:

LOL hiding a planet is more impressive than destroying multiple planets, and you wonder why i say you are making fan fictions LOL

Could have fooled me dude but the quote don't lie ;) now saying something then denying you said it, now that's delusional ;)

Sure seemed like it if you don't consider all other possible variables and possibilities, you are if you think there's only one way to defeat someone and/or moving multiple planets some how surpasses "beating or outsmarting a universal buster" ? I don't agree with this so agree to disagree on that one.

Since when does DS cry exactly? He's probably more evil then Dormammu I'd wager...if DS knew he couldn't beat him(and I mean with everything he else prior already considered) I'm sure given his intellect he could simply dodge him or fool him.

Ok, so Universal buster is different then universal+powerhouse? Meaning he's a very powerful character within MU, that what you're trying to say? Yes?

@Vaeternus: Reading comprehension failed.

What i said to you in the most recent post:

@Killemall said:

1. I am not saying the existence of feat is fan fiction, i am however saying clocking a planet is not better than destroying multiple planets.

And my previous post

@Killemall said:

LOL hiding a planet is more impressive than destroying multiple planets, and you wonder why i say you are making fan fictions LOL

So if you dont still get it, might i ask read it again.

Your claim that hiding a planet is more impressive than destroying multiple planets is in fact a fanfiction.

Sure seemed like it if you don't consider all other possible variables and possibilities, you are if you think there's only one way to defeat someone and/or moving multiple planets some how surpasses "beating or outsmarting a universal buster" ? I don't agree with this so agree to disagree on that one.

Funny part is Darkseid said didnt beat a universe buster what he did was hide himself from fear, i still fail to see how thats an impressive feat.

Since when does DS cry exactly? He's probably more evil then Dormammu I'd wager...if DS knew he couldn't beat him(and I mean with everything he else prior already considered) I'm sure given his intellect he could simply dodge him or fool him.

1. That was a figure of speech.

2. More evil than Dormammu, well if evil could have been measured probably.

3. So his intellect could dodge him or fool him is translated as Darkseid runs away from the battle field, then fair enough, else you are deluding yourself.

Ok, so Universal buster is different then universal+powerhouse? Meaning he's a very powerful character within MU, that what you're trying to say? Yes?

Yes thats what i am trying to say. Universal buster are normally referred to people who have actually destroyed a universe on panel, Dormammu hasnt, but has come very close. However he has fought being whose powers vastly surpass universal level, as Eternity has held entire universe on the palm of his hand. So while Dormammu power is universe +, he hasnt busted a universe.

And yes, Dormammu is a very powerful marvel character. Given marvel over-blown cosmology, there are plenty of characters above him though, but the point was those character would dwarf Darkseid in terms of power level as well, the same way Dormammu dwarfs Darkseid on power level.

@Killemall, My reading comprehension is fine, thank you very much. I sense you're annoyed because I called you out and used your own quote against you lol. What can I say, just admit your mistake next time.

I love it how you quote yourself and bold the part that has nothing to do with what you said concerning "me saying I used fan fiction" so I'll try this one more time...

@Killemall said:

@Vaeternus said:

LOL hiding a planet is more impressive than destroying multiple planets, and you wonder why i say you are making fan fictions LOL

What one has to do with the other I don't know, only you believe this comment is some how relevant much less makes sense(even though it doesn't) for one I never even said prior to that anything about "hiding a planet being more impressive then destroying multiple ones" I merely said, outsmarting a universal buster is just as impressive as anything Dormammu has done in MU...and you even said yourself, Dorm never busted a universe but came close...well DS outsmarted an ACTUAL universal buster by not getting noticed by AM...It's impressive because oh I don't know, his plan worked and he eluded the Anti-Monitor from spotting him? You know, AM is only capable of destroying universes as Dessaad even stated in that panel..

Me being realistic concerning DS's character and how he'd react doesn't make me deluded. But you can believe what you wish. How outsmarting someone = running away, I don't know when technically he cloaked his planet he didn't "run anywhere" do you not know what cloak means?

Ok, well as you know AM HAS busted a universe...yet DS dodged a huge bullet. Had AM spotted DS/and Apokolips it's safe to say AM would have eaten him up alive. Agreed?

Dormammu may be able to do things DS can do and DS can do things Dormammu can't do, but that doesn't mean DS can't deal with him or fight him...it's not like DS hasn't faced someone more powerful then him before....Spectre? AM?

@Killemall said:

@darklord_apoc said:

What are some of Dormammu's feats that he can do to D.S?

Destroying an entire dimension, going Kamakazi on Eternity which weakened Eternity to a point Nightmare was able to capture him (but unlike what most people make it sound like Dormammu did not defeat Eternity), Froze Hulk solid with magic, he has done so to Avengers and Defeanders together as well froze them in time.

Hun can you also do me a favor and send me Dorm's greatest feats to geniferparedes@yahoo.com....... because for some reason when I click on the pictures on here nothing shows up and it loads and loads =(

@darklord_apoc said:

@rolldestroyer said:

dormammu

Why do you say he will win?

Does this answer ur question

And yet we still don't know what DS' omega effect would do to Dormammu...

@Vaeternus said:

And I'm pretty sure DS would one shot SS with his Omega Effect/Force...in fact that topic has been done already and majority already feel clearly Darkseid would win...

Well, unfortunately a majority of people don't know a lot about Darkseid. Most people just assume he is as great as they've heard. There's actually a lot of misinformation about him. Surfer level characters have survived a shot of the Omega Effect more than once. More times than a being of a higher level has been taken out by them, I'm pretty sure, so the Surfer taking a hit or two is entirely possible. A lot of people, however, are still under the impression that the OE can automatically one-shot anything that isn't "important" or "protected," which isn't actually true, but it is a pretty popular idea.

I'm not discrediting anything, I'm merely saying while Dorm has some impressive feats so does Darkseid...and he wouldn't be as easily defeated as you think especially with the Source stepping in half the time and even that

You are relying on this way too much. First of all, you don't even know it was the Source. The Spectre answers to, and is limited by, the Presence, so that seems the more likely candidate. Secondly, that is the only instance, in all of Darkseid's battles, that any "higher power" has interfered on his behalf in such a way. There are several other instances of him losing, and even a few of him dying, without any interference at all. You're acting as if this is some sort of regular thing Darkseid can count on, when it is actually extremely unusual (again, only ever happened once).

Thirdly, as Killemall has pointed out, the Spectre operates under different rules and restrictions than normal characters. The issue specifically states he wasn't allowed to kill Darkseid. He also wasn't allowed to tell anyone about Sue Dibny. He's actually not allowed to do quite a lot of things. Since this only ever occurred when the Spectre was involved, and never with any other character, it is pretty easy to figure that this actually only applies to the Spectre, not that it is a general rule Darkseid can count on when anyone else is attacking him.

Lastly, the thread is just DS vs Dormammu anyway, not DS+ the Source directly helping him vs. Dormammu.

Darkseid has drove the Source crazy which effected other Skyfathers doing so...and being as how New Gods can create Universes I'd say that's pretty damn impressive. BTW he did that with 1/6 of ALE...combined with his own power. So actually, no there was no strawman argument. You merely took what I said out of context.

I believe it actually only drove the New Gods crazy, and only for a brief moment, at that time. He also did it with tech and an undisclosed amount of prep time, so it's not like it is something we can claim he can just pull out of nowhere in a 24 hour period. It's a good feat for his tech, but it doesn't show a lot as far as actually defeating sentient opponents who will fight back goes, especially with limited prep time.

When was it shown New Gods in general can create universes?

My point is that DS at his best is typically on most people's top most powerful DC's list...be it top 10, top 15 or 20 etc.

Again, a lot of people don't necessarily know a lot about Darkseid. A lot of people will probably put him in the top 10 just because he's an extremely popular character and they think supposed to be in there.

It also doesn't hurt that DC's cosmic-tier is a lot less developed or prevalent than Marvel's. Darkseid actually probably is the most popular of all of DC's "powerful" villains. Even someone like the Antimonitor probably isn't as well known, let alone guys like Imperiex (only 1 story arc). Conversely, Marvel has a very robust lineup of abstracts and abstract-level beings, with Dormammu (and many of the Dr. Strange based characters) being on the less popular side.

Basically, it's just easier to come up with a top 10 list for Marvel while forgetting Dormammu even exists.

He still has other great feats like defeating other new gods and it took 5 SkyFathers who had to merge to take Darkseid on, the fact that he's equal in power to is to 5 skyfather's says a lot,...

I really think you must be misremembering something here. When has Darkseid ever fought 5 skyfathers? And how powerful are DC skyfathers anyway? Just about everytime I see DC Zeus and Odin brought up, the general consensus is they don't have enough showings to really determine how powerful they are supposed to be in the first place.

One story that proves he is not only capable of destroying galaxies and other planets but he can transport Apokolips into other planets such as an older story where he was going to transport his planet into Earth 2 and thus destroying Earth 2...so there's your proof of Darkseid being more then capable of busting an entire planet...

Okay, first of all, nothing in that scan says anything about busting a galaxy, so where are you getting that from?

Secondly, the scan itself says that it was going to be done with a machine and a lot of work from his technicians. Darkseid isn't personally doing it at all.

Third, busting a planet is a Thor/Surfer level feat anyway, so it's not going to do much in an argument against Dormammu.

That is also the same storyarc where Darkseid is easily taken down by Firestorm. I'm not saying Firestorm is weak, but I have a hard time believing Dormammu can't match anything he can do.

Darkseid creates a weapon that attacks the Source, and thus drove all the other New Gods insane...totally corrupting the Source as this was how he also came back from the dead in on story.

The Source wasn't truly corrupted until Orion killed Darkseid in the Source, meaning Orion would technically be more responsible than that. And it's not like it was an act of power that did it anyway, it was more just perpetrating an act of revulsion inside something that was supposed to be pure.

You are really taking that instance out of context and trying to milk it.

DS resurrecting Dassaad after killing him previously...instantly

So what? Desaad is not a powerful character. Darkseid can only bring back people he has killed with his Omega Beams, and killing Desaad is not hard.

And yes, DS's powers have been known to be inconsistent but believe what you want, clearly you can't see facts over your own arrogance...not my problem. Like I said, that's why most DS fans and Superman fans admit his power showings are inconsistent over the years. And they're right.

I think the issue is more about to what degree Darkseid is inconsistent. He has had more fights with Superman than any other character, so that should weight things towards that end of the spectrum. If he is viewed as essentially being a Superman+ level character, like Killemall suggests, the inconsistencies diminish, the difference between his "normal" showings and "low" showings goes down. If he is viewed as a Skyfather+ level character, suddenly there are a lot more low-showings (just about every encounter he's had with Superman, for a start) that need to be explained away.

There are even a lot of pet fan-theories out there to do just that, that a lot of people take as being true, when they aren't. Stuff like "The Omega Beams and Omega Effect are different things." "The Omega Effect works on anything that isn't protected by the Source.""every fight Darkseid had with Superman was an avatar." "Orion is Darkseid's kryptonite." "The Darkseid that fought Doomsday was an avatar." "No wait, it was a clone." "No, wait, it was Desaad." "No wait, Darkseid actually killed him first, but he immediately regenerated and adapted, even though there is no mention or indication of this, and it took him several months to recover from Superman killing him." etc.

All untrue, but a lot of people believe in some or all of these without even questioning where it comes from.

What I said earlier about Spectre being tagged/hurt by DS's omega beams...yet even you admitted Spectre is 100x more powerful, should prove that if Spectre can be hurt by his Omega effect so can Dorm...a far LESSER character in power...very few things if anything can not be hurt or at least somewhat effected by DS's Omega Beams..

You're relying much too heavily on this single instance as well. I mean, going by single-panel showings, Batman has injured Darkseid worse than that with one kick, but nobody says it's proof of how great Batman is, they just go (yeah, that was kind of dumb. Artist probably didn't know what he was doing."

Even if he did hurt the Spectre, you've got one instance vs. several others of far, far weaker beings surviving it. Plus, this is pretty much the weakest version of the Spectre.

But that's even granting he was really "hurt." Certainly, there was no lasting damage, and the Spectre almost immediately overpowered and blasted DS to pieces. So really, what we have is the Spectre making a brief noise of discomfort, and then instantly crushing DS. That really doesn't say a whole lot about DS, other than emphasizing just how far out of his league he is.

Darkseid has also eluded/cloaked the entire planet of Apocalypse from the Anti-Monitor(a known universal destroyer..) this is by far equally impressive to Drom battling Eternity as far as I'm concerned...he knew he couldn't fight it so he merely outsmarted it, to me it's the same difference. Be it outsmarting a Universal threat or fighting it head on is equally impressive...

Sorry, but I think this is a pretty desperate way of looking at things. For one, again, Darkseid did not just do this on his own, it required all the energy of Apokolips. You keep using feats of prep and tech as if they are personal feats for himself.

And no, "outsmarting" the AM is not even remotely as impressive as fighting him, mainly because DS didn't even "outsmart" him, he just hid. How is activating a cloaking device that impressive? It's not even like the AM was specifically looking for him, from what I recall. It would be like claiming an ant I didn't even know about had "outsmarted" me by hiding under the couch so I wouldn't see it.

Moreover, it also doesn't count since DS did not achieve any kind of actual victory over the Antimonitor. At least in the case of Doom beating the Beyonder and Galactus, while it did involve prep and a lot of special items, you can claim that, yes, he did actually confront them in all their power, and yes, he did actually come out on top. That is not at all what happened in CoIE.

While yes it was a combined effort to crack Imperiex's armor, between Superman, Kyle and Darkseid still...without his omega beams, it wouldn't have cracked...and Superman even got hurt here where as DS did not.

Without Superman it wouldn't have cracked. Without Kismet it wouldn't have cracked. Without the nukes dropped by the spacecraft it wouldn't have cracked. What makes you think DS provided more help there than anyone else? It is never stated to be so, nor is it illustrated that way. In the following issue of Wonder Woman, the victory is even attributed to Superman and Green Lantern, not Darkseid. If anything, it is suggested that Kismet was the deciding factor, since Darkseid didn't even try attacking Imperiex until Strange Visitor showed up, and Kismet should rightfully occupy a pretty high power-tier, being the consciousness of the universe, or whatever.

Darkseid just doesn't have the kind of track record he would need for someone like Dormammu. He hasn't faced enough high-end opponents with any degree of success. He took one shot at Imperiex, that cannot even be determined to have done anything more than anyone else involved, nor is it implied that it did. He took one shot at the Spectre, which seemed to irritate him before quickly obliterating Darkseid's body. He merely hid from the AM, and used the tech of his planet to do it, and it did nothing to actually defeat the AM. He momentarily harmed the Source, but again, using tech and prep, and the Source isn't even a real opponent that will directly fight back or anything, and the true corruption was a result of Orion committing murder anyway, not Darkseid's machine.

At least with someone like Thanos, for example, we have two instances of him fighting a skyfather (Odin and Tyrant) for several pages by himself, so we don't have to rely on a single panel that could just be illustrated or lettered poorly to claim he can hang with those guys.

I'll wait until you can tell me where he took on the combined power of 5 skyfathers, because I am completely blanking on that.

BTW, a lot of these feats you're bringing up for DS are actually post-crisis, not pre-crisis.

PC Darkseid ftl

PC Darkseid ftl

This really isn't even debatable. Dormammu stomps due to more impressive feats.

@Killemall: Some of those scans need context:

The first set is from Apokolips now one shot and it's by far the lowest DS showing,to the point where one cant even take it seriously,the OB was blocked was blocked with a rock and heat vision for God's sakes,it was BS.

The second set was from Loeb's Superman/Batman,that's the same one where Supes and Bats one shotted every villain they came across.

Countdown was non canon and same goes for Death of the New Gods,they were incompatible with Final Crisis,you might have noticed that I've never used scans from either series(or their respective tie inns).

Doomsday=idiotic plot device,I've read every story with him and the character is horse crap when it comes to power levels.One example is that of Doomsday punching right through Martian when he was intangible but his fist went right through Superman when Clark was intangible.

In that showing with Orion the OB was only deflected cause Darkseid wanted it come back.

In the last one DS was almost powerless(just spent all his energies on Imperiex),but he still overwhelmed Superman in that story and simultaneously owned Grayven.

Dormammu stomps, really.

I'll go with Darkseid,he owned Pre-Crisis Doctor Fate and so did Mantis even his minions could channel the power of galaxies.

@Vaeternus said:

And yet we still don't know what DS' omega effect would do to Dormammu...

Nothing.

@czarny_samael666 said:

@LubeMan said:

PC Darkseid ftl

PC Darkseid is pretty much featless and he never KOd/killed anyone close in power to Dormammu just by OB. I belive You think about GDS DS, but Great Darkness is actually evil older than universe. Later in the same way, it was a description made about Great Evil Beast.

What the heck are you talking about? PC Darkseid had plenty of feats,he sucked Mordru dry,what makes you think Dormammu would be so different?one shotted classic Dr Fate.His OB consistently owned Pre-Crisis Superman who has withstood galaxy level power.

The Great Evil Beast was not even created when the Great Darkness Saga was written,Brainiac flatly said that the darkness was Darkseid's signature power,same goes for Apokolips machines operating on centuries old data.

@TheSecondOpinion said:

@Vaeternus said:

And yet we still don't know what DS' omega effect would do to Dormammu...

Nothing.

Proof of this? There is none..

@Freefa11, Well that's just my point. Not enough people know much about DS and it shows with topics like SS vs. Darkseid, at the end of the day I'm pretty sure majority of logical, experienced comic book fans know DS will win that match in the end. I don't assume the OE will automatically hurt everything and everything, but that it has some sort of effect more so my point. Example, when it at the least hurts someone like the Spectre I think it's safe to say Dorm would not be immune to it...who is far lesser then Spectre overall.

It seems pretty obvious to me that the Source stepped in and didn't want Spectre to kill DS, it's later revealed that after Metron's explanation the main reason why the Source prevented it were two reasons. One, if it allowed it Spectre would have been the next Darkseid...and two, according to anther arch Source is said to allow DS to live due to positive balance and negative balanced in the universe. DS being the negative...of course, plot points aside I'm sure it's safe to say Spectre would murk DS like he did already...as far as Spectre vs. DS no outside things interfering be it Presence or The Source..

I know about Spectre's limits and the Presence, and that the topic is DS vs. Dormammu but I'm just saying, that's one example of Source stepping in to say "no, DS must live" especially when people are using Dormammu's best feats, why can't I use DS's best feats and/or situations?

Concerning the DS arch where he messed with the Source and thus driving the New Gods crazy, here's what I was referring to, it did more a little more then drive then nuts according to these. Orion however knew who was behind it and as for New Gods creating a universe, it was stated in one arch an old, old one but I forget the issue however. But for the other thing I was able to find the scans. While yes it was his tech and prep that was the cause, it's still a feat and proves he's very brilliant and a master planner.

Well, I agree with you there concerning lesser known characters that can be less powerful then some no names like in this case Dormammu or in DC's AM, my point was DS is no joke like some people think he's "Superman tier" he's actually passed Superman tier considering what he has and can do, is all I'm saying and obviously the Omega Effect is not to be taken lightly. I'm not so sure about DC's cosmic beings being less developed, they definitely don't have "as many" cosmic like characters as Marvel but the few they do have usually are equal in terms of power if not stronger. I personally think MU has a tad too many at times.

Not so much misremembering, but referring to an older arch where it was stated that DS broke the source wall on his own where as it took 5 skyfathers to merge to do so, then you had due to DS's actions he was killing pantheons. As far as how powerful they are, well DC could be more specific but since that arch said it took 5 to merge just to equal DS perhaps they're powerful but not THAT powerful as DS especially. I don't recall saying DS killed 5 skyfathers, although I'm sure he could if it took them to merge just to bust the source wall where as he did it on his own power...

You're right DS's machine that he thought of, is doing it along with his techs but point is he's the brains behind it. As far as the galaxy comment, a few DS fans have told me he's taken over galaxies and/or is far capable of doing so. Not universes or anything but a galaxy? I'm sure he can and has, who's to say he hasn't transported apocalypse before to other nonname planets? I do not believe DS is a universal buster however and nor is Dormammu. I'm not trying to milk anything, DS manipulated Orion into killing him because he knew he'd come back once the source was corrupted...and he did just that. As for Firestorm beating DS in that other arch, I'd say more interfered and stopped his plans rather then "beat" Darkseid. In a flat out fight, I'm pretty sure DS would murder Firestorm. Not sure why you mentioned SS, yes he's a planet buster but then so is SA Superman so I'm not sure what the relevance there is if I may?

You're missing the point of the Dassaad scan, I never said he was powerful but rather that's a feat of DS resurrecting people at will much like he did with the parademons he created in that WW arch...

Well, that's just my point not just limited to the Superman fights but writers of DS, eras of DS and what he chooses to do with the OE, his beams, the OF etc and all those examples you listed are prime examples over time as to why a lot of people feel DS's power levels have been inconsistent over the years, not saying "horribly" but definitely not totally consistent either. Even the new 52 for example, he KO's Superman with a hit yet in prior stories Superman has taken direct hits to the face, hand and chest and hardly effected...

Ok, the Batman incident I thought was PIS personally...I'm a huge Batman fan and even I know that was dumb. The radion bullets ok....makes sense since they hurt all apokalypians(or whatever you refer to them as) but the kick was dumb, no argument there.

I disagree with you though on the Spectre incident, while I agree with your follow up points that was not the weakest version of Spectre(who too has had his own bag of inconsistencies over time no doubt) but at least they have some what reasons for it with the host, the writer etc having slightly different interpretations etc and Presence limiting him at times..but that being said, the weakest known version was Blackest Night ultimately. You saw how easily he was being dealt with by lesser people? Nekron, ok...I can see to a degree but still lol.

You see, again I disagree because that is a feat for DS because while he didn't do it "under his own power" he still did it under his own MIND, he thought it up and applied it to his tech, calculated the precise amount of time he had to get the job done on his planet before AM approached. So that is still a good feat. Sure, he didn't "wave" his planet away like a uber cosmic being...but that doesn't mean he can't beat or elude something more powerful then him given prep and his wits....so I disagree, outsmarting something far more powerful then you is equally as impressive as beating them directly because it proves while you may lack being physically equal or superior, your MIND can prove superior...I mean hell, just think why do you think Batman people say "Batman wins" half the time? Not because of his powers...he has none, but due to his KEEN mind, especially with prep. The Doom/beyonder feat is irrelevant here since that was not only PIS but retconned...so you'll forgive me for dismissing that.

Without ANY of them combined it wouldn't have cracked, not just Superman but without DS and Kyle also...it was a team effort. Had one individually tried it would have failed against Imperiex's armor..

Thanos also half the time keep in mind uses gimmicks such as HOTU and IG...to do half of his "crazier" feats, normally he's not that big of a threat normally. He's more like DS normally. Besides, DS overall historically while may not have "universal busting foe" feats, he still has a ton that's impressive and is still typically a threat, and his intelligence is not to be underestimated. Some of the feats I posted are general feats regardless of timeline since some people said "DS never did this, or that" a lot of my scans say otherwise such as him creating demons and resurrecting people on his own(which he has done)

@czarny_samael666 said:

@LubeMan said:

PC Darkseid ftl

PC Darkseid is pretty much featless and he never KOd/killed anyone close in power to Dormammu just by OB. I belive You think about GDS DS, but Great Darkness is actually evil older than universe. Later in the same way, it was a description made about Great Evil Beast.

FTL as in for the loss ;-) And although he may not win against Dormammu, he's far from featless. So, no I wasn't thinking about gds, because I don't think he wins. And as to DS sucking Dormammu dry as stated by someone else, good look with comparing Mordru to Dormammu!

@entropy_aegis: wow..look like my scans..

@a88378438 said:

@entropy_aegis: wow..look like my scans..

I dont need scans,I've read them.

@entropy_aegis: lol.i know..

oh Bro..did you belive SA superman can lift universe just like her?

Dormammu

PCD

Dormy

What is this? ''Dormammu's Day''?

Anyway, GDS Darkseid wins, Mordru was likely superior to Dormammu, and he didn't had difficult dealing with him.

PCD

Dormammu wins.

If PC Darkseid is GDS.. then Darkseid wins. The man who drained Mordru, Time Trapper wins hands down. PC Darkseid is top ten DC villans if u know what you are talking about.

Dormammu

DORMAMMU

Dormammu.

Dormammu stomps

Leaning towards Dormammu

Dormammu oneshots.

darkseid unless dorm is serious

Pre-Crisis Darkseid is the same Post Crisis Darkseid.

Drained Mordru & Time Trapper, and depowers PC Valdius.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/darkseid/4005-2349/forums/darkseid-respect-thread-1505684/

Highfather amped PC Superman and PC Supergirl really couldn't beat him.

Dormammu stomps.

𝑫𝒐𝒓𝒎𝒂𝒎𝒎𝒖