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#1 Posted by Shavo (2199 posts) - - Show Bio

who takes this

(btw just for reference living tribunal was barely able to hold off the brothers just saying)

#2 Posted by Dredeuced (6241 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, but PR Beyonder had LT shaking in his wee booties. PR Beyonder wins.

#3 Posted by LubeMan (1118 posts) - - Show Bio

Since that dreadfully awefull crossover isn't canon and can never be taken seriously, even though it was hard to take pr beyonder seriously with that jerry curl, the concept of what he was is not.

#4 Posted by rolldestroyer (3544 posts) - - Show Bio

both are in the same league (meaning TOAA level), so id say it's a stalemate or id give it to the bros as they are 2.

#5 Posted by Shavo (2199 posts) - - Show Bio

@LubeMan said:

Since that dreadfully awefull crossover isn't canon and can never be taken seriously, even though it was hard to take pr beyonder seriously with that jerry curl, the concept of what he was is not.

of who the brothers?

#6 Posted by Bo88gdan (5382 posts) - - Show Bio

Beyonder wins

#7 Posted by JackKnight (2975 posts) - - Show Bio

It's pretty obvious who would win.

#8 Edited by rolldestroyer (3544 posts) - - Show Bio

It's pretty obvious who would win.

and whom would that be? it's a tough call if you ask me.

#9 Posted by JackKnight (2975 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer: The guy who made The Living Tribunal, Eternity and the other cosmic beings sh*t there pants so much that they had to get help from the human who also has the guys powers.

#10 Posted by rolldestroyer (3544 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer: The guy who made The Living Tribunal, Eternity and the other cosmic beings sh*t there pants so much that they had to get help from the human who also has the guys powers.

when the brothers were fighting, they literally dwarfed living tribunal and the spectre, the weird thing though, is that LT and spectre did affect the brothers earlier. Also secret wars LT was weaker back then.

#11 Posted by JackKnight (2975 posts) - - Show Bio

Bumping!!!!!!!

#12 Posted by XxGin (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

I yin and yan in the chinese bible or the almalgam brothers?

#13 Edited by eternityx (2942 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer: LT's power level has never been changed. He is the same now, as he was in the secret wars.

#14 Posted by JackKnight (2975 posts) - - Show Bio
@xxgin said:

I yin and yan in the chinese bible or the almalgam brothers?

The Almalgam Brothers.

#15 Posted by rolldestroyer (3544 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer: LT's power level has never been changed. He is the same now, as he was in the secret wars.

then perhaps, you can explain his battle against nebulos? in strange tales #163:

Or the instance where korvac (amped by the powers of various entities) was able to defy LT's power, and all LT could do was seal the universe from the rest of the multiverse? in What if v1 #32:

and if you think that this issue is non canon (since it's a what if? issue) this event was referenced in LT's bio:

it was also seen in the quasar issues.

the difference is pretty clear if you ask me.

#16 Edited by XxGin (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

@xxgin said:

I yin and yan in the chinese bible or the almalgam brothers?

The Almalgam Brothers.

Alright I have no idea why peoples saying Beyonder wins so easily. I say Beyonder is going up against both brothers not only one. He is not only going up against the being who represents Marvel but DC also. I think after a good fight it will be a bloody stalemate.

#17 Edited by JackKnight (2975 posts) - - Show Bio

@xxgin said:

@jackknight said:
@xxgin said:

I yin and yan in the chinese bible or the almalgam brothers?

The Almalgam Brothers.

Alright I have no idea why peoples saying Beyonder wins so easily. I say Beyonder is going up against both brothers not only one. He is not only going up against the being who represents Marvel but DC also. I think after a good fight it will be a bloody stalemate.

I think this would be a very good fight though I will give the victory to the Beyonder in the end.

#18 Posted by BEYONDERGOD (1946 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre-Retcon Beyonder Omnistomps.

#19 Posted by aasquasar (49 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre-Retcon Beyonder has made his own universe, he's only under TOAA/presence

#20 Posted by hirev_starman (1379 posts) - - Show Bio

PR Beyonder

#21 Posted by galactus1967 (882 posts) - - Show Bio

If pre-retcon Beyonders power is true,he can beat LT,T.O.A.A AND THE PRESENCE all at the same time easy.Remember I`m not the guy who said his universe is like an ocean compared to a drop of water in ours .That was a freaking dumb ass marvel writer,and they have been trying to retcon it for 30years now.But some dummy always has a story with Beyonder close to his orignal powers.Make up your mind already,is he the most powerful being in Marvel or not,Answer please?

#22 Edited by MysticMedivh (18963 posts) - - Show Bio

@beyondergod said:

Pre-Retcon Beyonder Omnistomps.

This.

@galactus1967 said:

If pre-retcon Beyonders power is true,he can beat LT,T.O.A.A AND THE PRESENCE all at the same time easy.Remember I`m not the guy who said his universe is like an ocean compared to a drop of water in ours .That was a freaking dumb ass marvel writer,and they have been trying to retcon it for 30years now.But some dummy always has a story with Beyonder close to his orignal powers.Make up your mind already,is he the most powerful being in Marvel or not,Answer please?

PR Beyonder was god of his very own multiverse, separate from the Marvel multiverse. He is above HOTU Thanos, LT, Scathan, Protégé, Michael/Lucifer, Spectre, and I dare say the Presence.

However, he is not above TOAA, The Fulcrum, Grant Morrison, and Primal Monitor? But why?

The first three are all representations/incarnations of the writers themselves. No matter how powerful the Beyonder is in fiction he can't beat the writer.

I say Primal Monitor as well because it is the canvas in which stories are created, a tool used by the writer, it is something beyond the Beyonder.

If we are going to exclude characters that are writers (The One Above All, The Fulcrum, etc.) then yes, Pre-Recton Beyonder is the strongest fictional character in Marvel.

#23 Posted by galactus1967 (882 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes I understand

and the concept of the writer or (Stan Lee) being the Fulcrum,or Kirby being T.O.A.A,but pre-retcon is still tough as hell to beat no matter who you put up against him!Would still like to see him come back at original levels.

#24 Posted by Kingant27 (13078 posts) - - Show Bio

PR Beyonder is not omnipotent, why do people struggle to accept that; he is nigh-omnipotent.

#25 Posted by ComicsrulebutDBZdoes2 (6381 posts) - - Show Bio
#26 Posted by Kingant27 (13078 posts) - - Show Bio
#27 Posted by galactus1967 (882 posts) - - Show Bio

@mysticmedivh: Thanks for the info,at one time Beyonder was my favorite character,but when they started all this retcon stuff it really pissed me off.Now I see Spiderman with B`s power for like a billionth of a second wreck all the heros and Galactus.Who moon dragon just built up as having no dimensions or boundries.And all we see is the tip of the iceberg.And Spiderman wrecks him,while owen can`t even beat sentry .their origins must have been separated.If anyone is more updated than me please let me know?Thanks again for the info mysticmdivh.

#28 Posted by CosmicOrochi (571 posts) - - Show Bio

LT can barely hold them off? PR Beyonder had LT begging not to take action, of any kind.

#29 Posted by BEYONDERGOD (1946 posts) - - Show Bio

PR Beyonder is not omnipotent, why do people struggle to accept that; he is nigh-omnipotent.

He isnt nigh he is Omni

#30 Posted by ComicsrulebutDBZdoes2 (6381 posts) - - Show Bio

@galactus1967: Owen has only been retconned once and from marvels view sentry is very powerful more so than Odin, they wouldn't of shown all the fears he has of they didn't have plans for him

#31 Edited by Van_Cere (2640 posts) - - Show Bio

@beyondergod: @comicsrulebutdbzdoes2: @mysticmedivh: @galactus1967: This has gone far enough. I challenge all of you to one single CAV, with you using Beyonder as any or all versions and me with lucifer and/or Michael. Nothing will change if it were a regular debate, you would just still go back and do the exact same thing.

I really, truly, hate it when people make claims that they never back up, and if you can not stand against me individually, you can do it as a team. Omnipotent huh, GOD.

Either accept or do not. Just do not waste time thinking of excuses.

#32 Posted by Lucano (1585 posts) - - Show Bio
#33 Posted by ComicsrulebutDBZdoes2 (6381 posts) - - Show Bio

@van_cere: it would be pointless it would either be stalemate or beyonder wins due to their power shared betweent the two Of team

#34 Posted by BEYONDERGOD (1946 posts) - - Show Bio
#35 Posted by BEYONDERGOD (1946 posts) - - Show Bio

@van_cere said:

@beyondergod: @comicsrulebutdbzdoes2: @mysticmedivh: @galactus1967: This has gone far enough. I challenge all of you to one single CAV, with you using Beyonder as any or all versions and me with lucifer and/or Michael. Nothing will change if it were a regular debate, you would just still go back and do the exact same thing.

I really, truly, hate it when people make claims that they never back up, and if you can not stand against me individually, you can do it as a team. Omnipotent huh, GOD.

Either accept or do not. Just do not waste time thinking of excuses.

It would be pointless its been stated.

#36 Posted by ComicsrulebutDBZdoes2 (6381 posts) - - Show Bio

@lucano: when was it stolent??? He gave it away he didn't get stolen

#37 Posted by Lucano (1585 posts) - - Show Bio

@beyondergod: Your point?

Beyonder's power was stolen by Doom. A true omnipotent being is for starters an impossibility, because a single entity cannot hold all that power by definition. Only a plural entity can, omnipotence cannot be held without omniscience and omnipresence. For example, the best or closest thing to achieving true omnipotence is Elaine Beloc merging with every living thing and with everything at the end of the Wolf Beneath the Tree arc, achieving omnipresence and omniscience along with omnipotence.

An omniscient being cannot be stripped of his power.

#38 Posted by BEYONDERGOD (1946 posts) - - Show Bio

@lucano said:

@beyondergod: Your point?

Beyonder's power was stolen by Doom. A true omnipotent being is for starters an impossibility, because a single entity cannot hold all that power by definition. Only a plural entity can, omnipotence cannot be held without omniscience and omnipresence. For example, the best or closest thing to achieving true omnipotence is Elaine Beloc merging with every living thing and with everything at the end of the Wolf Beneath the Tree arc, achieving omnipresence and omniscience along with omnipotence.

An omniscient being cannot be stripped of his power.

LOL

Sure man you think that bro

Heart of the universe was TOAA power and who stolen that?....oh thanos?

The Source is a fraction of the presence power who stolen that?.....oh darkseid

see my point?.......

#39 Posted by Lucano (1585 posts) - - Show Bio

@beyondergod: Still, neither of them is omnipotent. Statements do not count. If a being is capable of doing absolutely everything, then it is omnipotent. By definition and logic, no fiction character can be omnipotent because for that, their creators need to be so first. For one to be omnipotent, needs to know EVERYTHING, to be capable of doing everthing. I highly doubt that any writter in this planet is omnipotent.

#40 Posted by BEYONDERGOD (1946 posts) - - Show Bio

@lucano said:

@beyondergod: Still, neither of them is omnipotent. Statements do not count. If a being is capable of doing absolutely everything, then it is omnipotent. By definition and logic, no fiction character can be omnipotent because for that, their creators need to be so first. For one to be omnipotent, needs to know EVERYTHING, to be capable of doing everthing. I highly doubt that any writter in this planet is omnipotent.

Writers>Fan opinion

#41 Posted by Lucano (1585 posts) - - Show Bio

@beyondergod: It is not fan opinion. Does Stan Lee know everything that it is to be known about this and every galaxy and universe? No. Therefor Stan Lee is not omniscient and by definition is not omnipotent. Ergo, none of his characters can be omnipotent, because they are restricted to his knowledge and imagination only. Same applies to every writter and fiction character ever written.

#42 Posted by BEYONDERGOD (1946 posts) - - Show Bio

@lucano said:

@beyondergod: It is not fan opinion. Does Stan Lee know everything that it is to be known about this and every galaxy and universe? No. Therefor Stan Lee is not omniscient and by definition is not omnipotent. Ergo, none of his characters can be omnipotent, because they are restricted to his knowledge and imagination only. Same applies to every writter and fiction character ever written.

Again.......

He is TOAA so its invalid.

#43 Posted by Lucano (1585 posts) - - Show Bio

@beyondergod: Just as I've been poiting valid arguments. Care to explain. Why?

#44 Edited by Van_Cere (2640 posts) - - Show Bio

@beyondergod: The HOTU is not omnipotence, merely the power of that creation and everything in it. Real omnipotent created that creation, and can create far more.

The source was another version when it's power was stolen.

Alien X is not an omnipotent, and there is no proof it is even above universal.

#45 Edited by SilverGalford (3422 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, but PR Beyonder had LT shaking in his wee booties. PR Beyonder wins.

this

#46 Posted by CosmicOrochi (571 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

Yeah, but PR Beyonder had LT shaking in his wee booties. PR Beyonder wins.

this

Like I said..

#47 Posted by MysticMedivh (18963 posts) - - Show Bio
@lucano said:

@beyondergod: Your point?

Beyonder's power was stolen by Doom. A true omnipotent being is for starters an impossibility, because a single entity cannot hold all that power by definition. Only a plural entity can, omnipotence cannot be held without omniscience and omnipresence. For example, the best or closest thing to achieving true omnipotence is Elaine Beloc merging with every living thing and with everything at the end of the Wolf Beneath the Tree arc, achieving omnipresence and omniscience along with omnipotence.

An omniscient being cannot be stripped of his power.

Correct me if I'm wrong but...

  1. Doom had taken the power of Galactus when Galactus was 1-hit K.O.'d by the Beyonder.
  2. Doctor Doom used the opportunity to seize Galactus's power.
  3. Challenging the Beyonder, Doctor Doom got curbstomped.
  4. Using Galactus tech (this happened off-panel) he then "stole" the Beyonder's powers.
  5. The Beyonder willingly "let" Doom do so, knowing that his attempts were in vain, for a mere
    mortal could never actually handle the sheer magnitude of his power.
  6. This was futile for Doctor Doom, he didn't succeed, and so the Secret Wars story
    continued.

Also, keep in mind that the Beyonder was from a multiverse completely separate from the Marvel multiverse, in comparison, the Marvel multiverse was a drop of water and the Beyonder-verse was an ocean, and the Beyonder was the TOAA of that multiverse. When he came to the Marvel multiverse he was pretty much TOAA, a "TOAA" before the idea of TOAA itself had been established in Marvel, truly the strongest being in the time before the actual TOAA was introduced.. I also have some scans of the Beyonder using "omniscience", there are some different ideas about them though.

In conclusion, Beyonder was millions of time more powerful that the multiverse itself and every force and being within it combined, the Living Tribunal was also stated to be a microbe to the Beyonder. He conquered everything just by thinking about it, no cosmic/abstract force dared get in his way, he did what he pleased, whether it was remove Death from the multiverse or cause multiversal destruction by thinking about it. I don't see why the Beyonder isn't omnipotent.

#48 Edited by Lucano (1585 posts) - - Show Bio

@mysticmedivh: Because by definition and most of all logic, he cannot be omnipotent, because he is limited to what a limited intellect (the writters) can imagine him to be able to do. To be TRULLY omnipotent you need to be able to grasp the real concept of everything in existence, so you can do everything. Therefor, The Beyonder being a fiction character is limited to what the autor can imagine, if the autor is not omniscient and omnipotent, he cannot imagine absolutely everything his character could do. Which means, no omnipotence. It is actually simple, leaving fanboism aside, there is no omnipotents in fiction, at all.

Also I've never said he doesn't win this battle, he actually does. What I am saying is that the term omnipotence is thrown away very cheaply around here.

#49 Edited by Spambot (2178 posts) - - Show Bio

@lucano: Beyonder only let Doom have a tiny fraction of his power because he was curious what he would do with it. He states that after taking it back and sending everyone home.

#50 Posted by Lucano (1585 posts) - - Show Bio