This topic is locked from further discussion.

#1 Edited by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

No gear. No powers. No claws. No immortality. No adamantium. No Dawg. Fight takes place on the rooftops of Gotham, but no outside interference. Pre-Flashpoint. Who and why?

#2 Edited by AllStarSuperman (21971 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine cause theres no gear, to my knowledge he is better at H2H

#3 Edited by God_Spawn (37950 posts) - - Show Bio

So equalized stats, no healing, no claws etc?

Moderator
#4 Posted by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine has the stats of a 5'3" guy. Equal but human healing, no claws. Just size and fighting ability.

#5 Posted by God_Spawn (37950 posts) - - Show Bio

Then what has Lobo done to even suggest he's on Wolverine's level of skill? I don't think I've ever seen anything that puts Lobo on Nightwing's level of h2h ability, let alone Logan's. Am I missing something here?

Moderator
#6 Posted by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't rightly know what Wolverine's level of skill is.

#7 Edited by God_Spawn (37950 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine's given either given good fights, beaten, and sometimes curbstomped some these people. Wolverine's faced off against Iron Fist (beaten), Captain America (beaten), Daredevil, Shang-Chi (stomped), Deadpool (brutal, but brief fights), Shatterstar (stomped), Nuke, Psylocke, Elektra, Spiral, Shingen, Ogun, Sabretooth, Cyber, Romulus, Daken, Lady Deathstrike, Mister X, Bucky and him as Winter Soldier, Silver Samurai, Omega Red and more.

Logan's top tier in Marvel as far as skill goes. He's already shown pressure points on humans, detecting weak spots on occasion, and has shown knowledge of pressure points on even alien physiology. Unless Lobo is pushing Batman level h2h skills, he isn't on Wolverine's level.

Moderator
#8 Posted by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

Were those wins due to skill alone? Did he turn off his powers and skeleton?

#9 Posted by Joygirl (20045 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolvie may be more skilled but Lobo is no slouch, he's also very smart. Also, Wolvie, while shredded, is a little guy, whereas the 'Bo is a big huge fragger. His non-amped stats should still be massively superior to Logan's.

#10 Posted by God_Spawn (37950 posts) - - Show Bio

He can't shut his powers off and it hardly matters anyway. He barely outstats the heroes he fights and at times he has been hindered ie barely working healing and a lot of his rogues are high class fighters that sometimes out stat him by a fair margin and they also come with healing, weapons, and powers to compensate. And it's already been shown during times of when Logan was a brawler, skilled fighters could wreck him. Sabretooth used to whip him or fight even with him, but he hasn't been a major threat to Logan thanks to his skill for years. Shang-Chi toyed with Logan before and when Wolverine got better and without his adamantium or claws, beat him in 3 pages. He had Cap down when Logan was running on fumes and didn't have the use of his claws because Steve crushed the tendons in his arms that pop the claws so he gave him a hematoma in his leg with a pressure point. He one shot Kid Gladiator with a pressure point and KG was toying with some of the Avengers like Quicksilver and Giant Man. Half his rogue gallery outstats him and has very similar templates in powers as he does.

Moderator
#11 Posted by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

I mean, Mr. X was able to best him, but that was due to powers, not pure skill. I don't see how that's any different from Wolverine steamrolling a human Shang-Chi if James had his powers intact.

#12 Posted by God_Spawn (37950 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not even sure if you're getting it?

Moderator
#13 Posted by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

Depends on how much stock you place in age versus formal training, I guess. Wolverine has a sizable stat edge over any human.

#14 Posted by God_Spawn (37950 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine is also 200 pounds with a large reach. But that is irrelevant to my point. I don't think you're understanding how large the skill gap is here.

Moderator
#15 Posted by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

So you'd back Squall, the SeeD prodigy over Cloud, the SOLDIER-drop out with more field experience, I take it?

#16 Posted by God_Spawn (37950 posts) - - Show Bio

Experience in terms of comics doesn't have a lot to do with anything. Going by their applicable skill feats Wolverine's>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lobo from what I have seen. His skill far outweighs whatever edge Lobo has considering the stats you have placed them on.

Moderator
#17 Posted by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

I remember Batman himself having a hard time with nobodies due to his lack of experience in Year One. And people are constantly slamming martial arts on comic battleboards, claiming experience trumps training.

#18 Posted by God_Spawn (37950 posts) - - Show Bio

Yet Thor and Ares have been fighting for centuries if not millenia, and are mediocre fighters. Their fighting feats are lackluster than the street levelers who have trained only fractions of a fractions of just their lifespan. I really know what to say anymore. I feel like anything I am saying is not getting through. I gave you Logan's rap sheet. I explained that despite his advantages, when he was untrained, mid tier fighters were curbstomping him and when he was a solidified fighter and at time handicapped (lack of adamantium, no use of claws, weak healing) at times and still has bested a lot of Marvel's best and his rogue gallery is filled with high class fighters that have stat edges, healing, weapons etc to match his, he still survives and sometimes beats them because he has the skill to do so. Considering the human levels you placed them on stat wise, that doesn't get rid of Wolverine's fighting ability. Lobo's reach and probable strength edge don't edge out a top tier fighter if he is just bringing street fighting with some wacky, yet smart, intelligence to the table.

To be honest, this isn't even close of a fight.

Moderator
#19 Edited by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

Fair enough. I personally would trust training over experience. (Btw, did they retcon Wolverine into being older than 200 years?)

#20 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

I believe weakest incarnation of Lobo couldn't outperform Batman in fighting skill, Wolverine is probably around Bat's level.

#21 Posted by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

Yet Superman beat Kobra on experience alone (which i disagreed with) and Lobo trashed him while drunk. Wolverine lost to Mr. X hand to hand, until he went berserker, which doesn't exactly scream skill.

#22 Edited by God_Spawn (37950 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_last_son_of_czarnia: Feats >>>>experience. It goes along with my previous point of the God characters that have been fighting for centuries being lack luster fighters because their experience is just centuries of said style of combat and the feats shown don't show for it. If Ares spent centuries of swinging an ax and spear around, fighting people with sticks and stones, that doesn't make him better than Captain America or Daredevil.

And I don't believe so. Last time I checked he was still born in the 1880's.

Moderator
#23 Edited by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, what counts as a skill feat then? How far does 400 years of being a contract killer go?

#24 Posted by Shawnbaby (10804 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_last_son_of_czarnia: It's not like Lobo is facing off against some wide-eyed rookie...Logan isn't lacking in Experience either....and he's got a higher level of skill.

#25 Posted by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

There's quite a gap between 415 years and 234 years.

#26 Posted by God_Spawn (37950 posts) - - Show Bio

Mr. X has been stated to know every martial art and also has the ability to map into an opponent's nervous system and react accordingly before they make their move and Logan wasn't fast enough to compensate. He had to go berserk because X couldn't read his mind then. I'm not sure what you're getting at?

Moderator
#27 Edited by Shawnbaby (10804 posts) - - Show Bio

There's quite a gap between 415 years and 234 years.

There's a bigger gap in actual fighting skill.

If Lobo was fighting a skilled, yet untested, opponent....you might have a case...but against a skilled and seasoned warrior like Wolverine...It isn't going to be a factor.

Ok, what counts as a skill feat then? How far does 400 years of being a contract killer go?

400 years of being a Superman level being. None of his experience prepares him to fight a more skilled opponent with only human level stats.

#28 Posted by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

Exactly. He beat Wolverine due to a power, not raw skill. Just because one defeats a martial artist doesn't necessarily mean it was due to skill, when superpowers are involved.

#29 Edited by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

"Isn't going to be a factor." So 181 = 0?

#30 Posted by God_Spawn (37950 posts) - - Show Bio

He beat Wolverine due to both. And again, people with a higher level of skill than Logan at the time have beaten Logan before plenty of times. Easily. Logan gets better and comes back and beats people. Shang-Chi, wins on skill. Iron Fist in h2h, skill. Captain America when Logan barely had a working healing factor, claws, and was exhausted, skill. Trying to use Mr. X as a staple for your case when I've already explained in 3 separate posts that if he was winning based solely on power set, he wouldn't have been getting his butt whooped so many times.

I'm not so sure what is so hard to get? I say a lot, give consistent examples, and you pick one isolated incident as the core of whatever argument you have and I quite frankly don't even know what it is.

Moderator
#31 Edited by Shawnbaby (10804 posts) - - Show Bio

"Isn't going to be a factor." So 181 = 0?

I can't believe you are trying to make a case for "Lobo is older...he wins"

I guess Nick Fury beats Batman too then. All that skill Batman has accumulated doesn't matter against someone who's been around as long as Nick Fury...right?

#32 Edited by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

So he loses to the guys he's supposedly more skilled than and that proves his wins later weren't due to his infamous superhuman speed and healing? Is Maximus Lobo some kinda ninja master? Is the Hulk a martial artist?

#33 Posted by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

It works for Thor. His millennia of battle experience is often cited as to why he beats Superman.

#34 Posted by Shawnbaby (10804 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_last_son_of_czarnia: Bad example... most people believe that Thor would get beat by Superman due to Superman having superior Speed.

#35 Edited by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

Nah, he can tag Surfer so he's faster than Flash. And Mjolnir is many, many times FTL.

#36 Edited by Shawnbaby (10804 posts) - - Show Bio

Nah, he can tag Surfer so he's faster than Flash. And Mjolnir is many, many times FTL.

I won't even get into how wrong that is as it has nothing to do with the debate here.

Lobo's experience counts for nothing here anyway...since he's never before had to fight with only human level stats.

#37 Edited by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

At least we can agree that Vegeta would beat Goku if they were equal in power then.

#38 Posted by God_Spawn (37950 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll repeat myself again. He loses and has lost to people more skilled than him at the time because that is what he relied on and he wasn't as trained. Not that he was already more skilled than them. I have already said this again and again and again. Logan is already faster, stronger, and more durable than someone like Shang-Chi, yet with his claws out, couldn't lay a single hit on him and got beat. Shang joked with him. Logan, later in continuity after becoming an established fighter, came back and stomped in h2h in 2-3 pages. With a barely working healing factor and claws, he got the better of Captain America. In a h2h fight between Iron Fist, he beat Iron Fist. Iron Fist was able to land hits on Logan and vise versa. He barely, as in not much, as in little, has a stat edge over guys like Captain America or Iron Fist because they to have feats suggesting they are close enough in speed and skill to tag him as well. If their skill levels were so much higher, they would have beaten him.

And are you seriously using the Hulk now? Hulk is a class 100 character and has a healing factor that deals with virtually everything thrown at him...

Moderator
#39 Posted by Shawnbaby (10804 posts) - - Show Bio

At least we can agree that Vegeta would beat Goku if they were equal in power then.

Actually, I cannot agree with that statement since I never really watched Dragonball.

#40 Posted by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

You just went on a rant about how being powerful means there's less room for skill.

#41 Posted by Shawnbaby (10804 posts) - - Show Bio

You just went on a rant about how being powerful means there's less room for skill.

I'm not sure who you were directing that comment at (hint: use the reply and/or quote functions) but neither of us have gone on any such rant about how being powerful leaves less room for skill.

#42 Posted by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

Can't on my iPad. But it's been fun. Night.

#43 Posted by God_Spawn (37950 posts) - - Show Bio

No I didn't. I said experience does not equal skill and equated to the Gods in Marvel's skill being centuries of fighting vastly inferior opponents with vastly weaker weapons. Because their experience just constitutes of what I just stated. When they have shown a level of skill instead of just swinging an axe and overpowering an opponent, it is only a decent level of skill feats. And this is backed up by their usual opponents just using stats and being brawlers. If Hercules and Thor were both so skilled, they should have both beaten Hulk without much trouble an issue since they used to start stronger than him and are hella lot older.

This is in no way a good comparison to use against Wolverine. Herc and Thor are trained yet fight a relatively close physical match of an opponent that isn't as old as they are and is just a brawler. Unlike them, Wolverine has established feats. Has beaten established fighters. Barely outstats and is at times out gunned himself in terms of physical prowess against established fighters and so on.

And if power meant no room for skill then tell that to Gamora, Wonder Woman, Orion, She-Hulk etc that.

Moderator
#44 Edited by God_Spawn (37950 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby said:

@the_last_son_of_czarnia said:

You just went on a rant about how being powerful means there's less room for skill.

I'm not sure who you were directing that comment at (hint: use the reply and/or quote functions) but neither of us have gone on any such rant about how being powerful leaves less room for skill.

I don't even believe I said such a thing either.

I really should have just done this from the start. Mismatch. Under these conditions, Lobo doesn't have the feats to suggest he can hang with a top tier like Wolverine and this thread hasn't gone anywhere and has just been turned into a bunch of misconstruing of words.

Moderator