Polaris and Jean Grey vs Magneto

K.O.

100 ft away

I would say most of the battles would turn out to be stalemates. Magneto with his psi defenses and shields isn't going down against the two of them and the same is true of Polaris. Jean without the Phoenix Force would be limited in how much she could play a role, but if she had it the balance would shift decisively in team ones favor.

Without the PF for Jean, I think Magneto would probably win. He could negate their powers like he did back in Fatal Attraction (don't remember if Lorna was there or not but I think she was), and then KO them.

Two X-Men are not going to beat him. In order to defeat Magneto without the Phoenix Force, Xavier must require ALL of the X-Men (Gold & Blue), and they need to have a very well organized plan of distracting him by talking to him. This is the only way they can win, so writes history. 

Magneto FTW

@FemmeFatale: I swear this must be your ... ninth battle thread that has included Jean Grey. There are other characters in the Marvel Universe (especially some strong-willed females).

jean grey and polaris,jean without pf can beat him by herself with polaris there they can mess him up pretty bad!

Jean easily solos. She is currently WPOTC. This also didn't need a bump.

@njones5 said:

jean grey and polaris,jean without pf can beat him by herself with polaris there they can mess him up pretty bad!

@YoungJustice said:

Jean easily solos. She is currently WPOTC. This also didn't need a bump.

Yeah, Mags has never beaten Phoenix...

Oh, except when he has. In point of fact, this wasn't even Jean it was the Phoenix Force itself. Not to mention the literally dozens of other times he's beaten Jean along with her teammates, and also the many times he's shown superior control to Polaris, even when he was practically completely depowered and she wasn't.

@LordOfAllHumans said:

except when history wrote that story about Jean and her group of Xmen that went to Genosha at the height of his power and everything he thought was happening was all a telepathically induced reality that she created

Yes, I know this is old, but I'd just like to call PIS here. Mags has held off Jean, Xavier, Xavier and Jean together, and a several other powerful telepaths dozens of times. The two times Jean did bypass his psy-shields (both by the same writer, both times without Magneto even having any knowledge of it), he was not near his highest strength, and it was quite obviously PIS when compared to the dozens of times over a fifty year history of the character almost never even being challenged psychically.

I don't understand your post. You stated this wasn't PF empowered Jean, and even if it was, it wouldnt be WPOTC.

Probably the Team. Jean Grey could probably take Magneto.

@YoungJustice said:

I don't understand your post. You stated this wasn't PF empowered Jean, and even if it was, it wouldnt be WPOTC.

It wasn't Jean at all. It was the Phoenix Force itself masquerading as Jean. Mags took on the Phoenix directly and won, twice, however I'll give you WPOTC winning, but I doubt that the OP intended that to be the battle.

@yodagod: Doesnt Jean Grey have one of those wishing abilities to where she can wish Magneto from existence or is this a different Jeany i'm thinking of?

MAGS FOR THE WIN

If lorna and jean work as a team they could hold there own for a while. Is jean's TK abel to match erik's power?

@Crimsonlord53 said:

If lorna and jean work as a team they could hold there own for a while. Is jean's TK abel to match erik's power?

Jean's TK is molecular, Mags' control is subatomic, consequently his control is superior. She has a few atomic level rearrangements, but very few. Still not enough to match him, nor enough to prevent him from just shutting off both she and Lorna.

that is not real yodagod for one if you think of someone who has beat the xmen not even trying and your saying mags will win than you have some serious issues phoenix has beaten galactus easily galactus!!!!!!!!!!!!!! easily!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@yodagod said:

@njones5 said:

jean grey and polaris,jean without pf can beat him by herself with polaris there they can mess him up pretty bad!

@YoungJustice said:

Jean easily solos. She is currently WPOTC. This also didn't need a bump.

Yeah, Mags has never beaten Phoenix...

Oh, except when he has. In point of fact, this wasn't even Jean it was the Phoenix Force itself. Not to mention the literally dozens of other times he's beaten Jean along with her teammates, and also the many times he's shown superior control to Polaris, even when he was practically completely depowered and she wasn't.

@LordOfAllHumans said:

except when history wrote that story about Jean and her group of Xmen that went to Genosha at the height of his power and everything he thought was happening was all a telepathically induced reality that she created

Yes, I know this is old, but I'd just like to call PIS here. Mags has held off Jean, Xavier, Xavier and Jean together, and a several other powerful telepaths dozens of times. The two times Jean did bypass his psy-shields (both by the same writer, both times without Magneto even having any knowledge of it), he was not near his highest strength, and it was quite obviously PIS when compared to the dozens of times over a fifty year history of the character almost never even being challenged psychically.

And when Jean bypassed his defenses the last time it was after she decided on panel to stop holding back her powers and was more powerful than she was in the last encounters. It actually should have been PIS in his favor when he held them off since she has shown she was powerful enough as Marvel Girl to get through Juggs helmet with a psi blast. He was near his highest strength as he had regained the power he lost due to his stunt before he took over Genosha he found a machine on the Island that rebooted his powers.

@LordOfAllHumans said:

And when Jean bypassed his defenses the last time it was after she decided on panel to stop holding back her powers and was more powerful than she was in the last encounters. It actually should have been PIS in his favor when he held them off since she has shown she was powerful enough as Marvel Girl to get through Juggs helmet with a psi blast. He was near his highest strength as he had regained the power he lost due to his stunt before he took over Genosha he found a machine on the Island that rebooted his powers.

She's "decided not to hold back" nearly as many times as she's died. It means nothing. Her getting through Jugg's helmet and not Magneto's psi shields just demonstrates how good he is. It isn't PIS since he's done it literally dozens of times, not just against Jean, but others of equal or greater power, in some cases with no powers of his own, just his willpower. He reflected Karma's powers back on not only her but the rest of the team as well, he has forced others into the astral plane against their will, including people as powerful as Xavier, proving that not only does he have an iron will, but also impressive psi abilities as well. He held off Legion, the Phoenix Force itself, and the combined attacks of Xavier and Jean who had a psi-battle "across the infinite planes of reality". Yet she can suddenly bypass his defenses without him even knowing? Because one silly writer decides the story requires it? That mein freund is the definition of PIS.

@yodagod said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

And when Jean bypassed his defenses the last time it was after she decided on panel to stop holding back her powers and was more powerful than she was in the last encounters. It actually should have been PIS in his favor when he held them off since she has shown she was powerful enough as Marvel Girl to get through Juggs helmet with a psi blast. He was near his highest strength as he had regained the power he lost due to his stunt before he took over Genosha he found a machine on the Island that rebooted his powers.

She's "decided not to hold back" nearly as many times as she's died. It means nothing. Her getting through Jugg's helmet and not Magneto's psi shields just demonstrates how good he is. It isn't PIS since he's done it literally dozens of times, not just against Jean, but others of equal or greater power, in some cases with no powers of his own, just his willpower. He reflected Karma's powers back on not only her but the rest of the team as well, he has forced others into the astral plane against their will, including people as powerful as Xavier, proving that not only does he have an iron will, but also impressive psi abilities as well. He held off Legion, the Phoenix Force itself, and the combined attacks of Xavier and Jean who had a psi-battle "across the infinite planes of reality". Yet she can suddenly bypass his defenses without him even knowing? Because one silly writer decides the story requires it? That mein freund is the definition of PIS.

There is only one instance of the actual Jean Grey admitting she has been holding back her power ever since she returned after Phoenix took her soul and form. You are bringing up instances when Marvel was claiming he had telepathic powers as well, so the error of one writer against another when it has been more consistent evidence that he does not have any psi powers at all. His fight with Phoenix was purely physical, when he was fighting off Jean and Xavier it was after he messed with the worlds EM field which in turn messed with all psi powers on Earth. Jean since the Jugggernaut blast has shown to be able to get around immunity again with the Juggernaut, 3 times with Emma and several times with Cipher, the Jean that got into his mind was stated to be able to break through any mental shield natural or artificial as the full expression of her power, and was doing things she didn't do before and using more power which actually showed that her no longer holding back was not just some random statement. So you have his inconsistent powers due to bad writing and giving him power that he does not have, and an instance which involves prep before he engaged Xavier and Jean by messing with the Earth EM field. So I'm sticking to her being able to bypass it based on her actually using more power than she used to back then and him not having those ill-defined mental powers from back in the day and it seems even the damage he caused to the EM field has repaired itself.

@LordOfAllHumans said:

There is only one instance of the actual Jean Grey admitting she has been holding back her power ever since she returned after Phoenix took her soul and form. You are bringing up instances when Marvel was claiming he had telepathic powers as well, so the error of one writer against another when it has been more consistent evidence that he does not have any psi powers at all. His fight with Phoenix was purely physical, when he was fighting off Jean and Xavier it was after he messed with the worlds EM field which in turn messed with all psi powers on Earth. Jean since the Jugggernaut blast has shown to be able to get around immunity again with the Juggernaut, 3 times with Emma and several times with Cipher, the Jean that got into his mind was stated to be able to break through any mental shield natural or artificial as the full expression of her power, and was doing things she didn't do before and using more power which actually showed that her no longer holding back was not just some random statement. So you have his inconsistent powers due to bad writing and giving him power that he does not have, and an instance which involves prep before he engaged Xavier and Jean by messing with the Earth EM field. So I'm sticking to her being able to bypass it based on her actually using more power than she used to back then and him not having those ill-defined mental powers from back in the day and it seems even the damage he caused to the EM field has repaired itself.

There are many instances before that, however. She constantly is either talking about that she's holding back, or the entire other direction, that she's using it with no restrictions and not holding back. Either way, it just confirms that you shouldn't go by what characters say. If you want to do that, then Professor Xavier, Beast, and Moira have all stated that Magneto is the most powerful mutant. The fact that she has never been able to get past his mental blocks, then suddenly (when a single writer deems it necessary to their plot) she suddenly can not only defeat his mental blocks, but can do it without his knowledge. That's the definition of PIS. I've never seen anything that even implied that his EMP did anything to psi powers, psionic powers, or psychics at all. It was a simple electromagnetic pulse. A powerful one, but nevertheless, it didn't harm the EM field at all. If it would have affected psychics as you say, Xavier wouldn't have been able to power his Shi'ar "walking suit", they wouldn't have done as well against Mags as they did based on pretty much every other showing of Magneto vs tp, and Xavier certainly wouldn't have been able to blow out Maggie's mind. Magneto held off Exodus when he had no powers at all, just with pure willpower. The few times the EM field was damaged...during his fight with Joseph, when he was disincorporated into the EM field, and when Reed and Tony screwed it up when they tried to imprison him, he fixed it himself each time. As to his own tp, I can give you plenty of scans over a long history. Many different writers (including Mr. "I established most of what the X-Men and their villains are" Chris Claremont) and spanning different eras even. Dozens of showings of a power (even a seldomly used one), over the entire course history of a character equals consistency. Ignoring fifty years of established continuity is the PIS here. As to a few scans here you are...

That last one is one of my favorites. That's Mags using his astral form and taking down Jean.

Not to mention this is all moot, since Mags has much much faster reaction time than either of them. He can easily just "shut them off" like he already did to both of them, plus the rest of their respective teams during "Fatal Attractions".

You'll remember both Jean and Lorna were present here. And they were completely helpless.

@yodagod said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

There is only one instance of the actual Jean Grey admitting she has been holding back her power ever since she returned after Phoenix took her soul and form. You are bringing up instances when Marvel was claiming he had telepathic powers as well, so the error of one writer against another when it has been more consistent evidence that he does not have any psi powers at all. His fight with Phoenix was purely physical, when he was fighting off Jean and Xavier it was after he messed with the worlds EM field which in turn messed with all psi powers on Earth. Jean since the Jugggernaut blast has shown to be able to get around immunity again with the Juggernaut, 3 times with Emma and several times with Cipher, the Jean that got into his mind was stated to be able to break through any mental shield natural or artificial as the full expression of her power, and was doing things she didn't do before and using more power which actually showed that her no longer holding back was not just some random statement. So you have his inconsistent powers due to bad writing and giving him power that he does not have, and an instance which involves prep before he engaged Xavier and Jean by messing with the Earth EM field. So I'm sticking to her being able to bypass it based on her actually using more power than she used to back then and him not having those ill-defined mental powers from back in the day and it seems even the damage he caused to the EM field has repaired itself.

There are many instances before that, however. She constantly is either talking about that she's holding back, or the entire other direction, that she's using it with no restrictions and not holding back. Either way, it just confirms that you shouldn't go by what characters say. If you want to do that, then Professor Xavier, Beast, and Moira have all stated that Magneto is the most powerful mutant. The fact that she has never been able to get past his mental blocks, then suddenly (when a single writer deems it necessary to their plot) she suddenly can not only defeat his mental blocks, but can do it without his knowledge. That's the definition of PIS. I've never seen anything that even implied that his EMP did anything to psi powers, psionic powers, or psychics at all. It was a simple electromagnetic pulse. A powerful one, but nevertheless, it didn't harm the EM field at all. If it would have affected psychics as you say, Xavier wouldn't have been able to power his Shi'ar "walking suit", they wouldn't have done as well against Mags as they did based on pretty much every other showing of Magneto vs tp, and Xavier certainly wouldn't have been able to blow out Maggie's mind. Magneto held off Exodus when he had no powers at all, just with pure willpower. The few times the EM field was damaged...during his fight with Joseph, when he was disincorporated into the EM field, and when Reed and Tony screwed it up when they tried to imprison him, he fixed it himself each time. As to his own tp, I can give you plenty of scans over a long history. Many different writers (including Mr. "I established most of what the X-Men and their villains are" Chris Claremont) and spanning different eras even. Dozens of showings of a power (even a seldomly used one), over the entire course history of a character equals consistency. Ignoring fifty years of established continuity is the PIS here. As to a few scans here you are...

That last one is one of my favorites. That's Mags using his astral form and taking down Jean.

Not to mention this is all moot, since Mags has much much faster reaction time than either of them. He can easily just "shut them off" like he already did to both of them, plus the rest of their respective teams during "Fatal Attractions".

You'll remember both Jean and Lorna were present here. And they were completely helpless.

I'll remember that as soon as you remember that when Jean got into his mind bypassing his will and helmet, his plot induced psi powers were no more and she was much more powerful than she was before. Those same reflexes failed him even though he had surprise attacked them before their plane even landed. I'm not going by only her saying it, Revolution proves that what she said was true. It was even said by Cable and the Xmen when they fought those Neo that she was using more power than before and that they were afraid she was in Dark Phoenix territory, the very reason why she tells Scott months before that she holds back...it scares her friends when she doesn't.

@LordOfAllHumans said:

I'll remember that as soon as you remember that when Jean got into his mind bypassing his will and helmet, his plot induced psi powers were no more and she was much more powerful than she was before. Those same reflexes failed him even though he had surprise attacked them before their plane even landed. I'm not going by only her saying it, Revolution proves that what she said was true. It was even said by Cable and the Xmen when they fought those Neo that she was using more power than before and that they were afraid she was in Dark Phoenix territory, the very reason why she tells Scott months before that she holds back...it scares her friends when she doesn't.

The fact still remains that he has far more wins against her and her various teams. I'm not arguing that she often held back. The point is that it doesn't matter. She also often went "all out". Even the Phoenix Force when in the midst of the bottle effect was flabbergasted..."I thought I had unlimited power". She was trying to use it all. It didn't work then, it hasn't worked many other times, holding back or not, and there's no reason to think it would be different here. She's in all likelihood, more powerful than Mags overall. But she still isn't a match for his intellect, versatility, and control, even with Lorna as backup. Whether it's tk or tp, she has two PIS showings against Magneto from a single writer. He has fifty years of not just beating her (and her team), but beating her at her own game, with her own powers. Not just winning, but humiliating her (and her team, and other teams including the other X-teams, the Fantastic Four, and a few incarnations of the Avengers). As to the Neo...The X-Men had to work just to keep up with any one of the Neo. The Neo are the stage of evolution beyond mutants. Most have several powers, and even the weakest are far more powerful than the average mutant. In their first appearance, Domina solo'd the entire team, and they've had similar showings since. She killed Sinister dozens of times. Most of the time the X-Men, including Jean, are lucky to survive an encounter with Sinister. Jean had to fight the Neo unleashed just to keep up. Yet still, the Neo think of the X-Men, even Jean, as flatscans. But they bowed before the might of Magneto. You have a single very obvious PIS showing you keep referring to. If they had an astral battle and she won, I'd be willing to acknowledge that she has grown in her ability and control, and Mags would have to find another way to beat her. But instead, they just needed a plot device, ignored all the history of Mags having better tp resistance than pretty much anyone, having tech in his helmet to boost his own tp, and they even the retcon that makes his helmet give him added tp resistance (he never had that until quite recently) and they just said she was in his head all along and he never knew. After all the history, power, and ability Mags has shown, that is pure, unadulterated PIS. You keep calling his abilities PIS. Why? I gave you scans of four instances of Mags using tp himself, and I can give you many more. I don't see why you refuse to acknowledge a dozen showings from seven or eight different writers over the course of at least three entire eras of comics. Being a hater is just as bad as being a fanboy, and I'd like to think you're better than that. When not possessed by the Phoenix, Jean has no actual feats to put her on Magneto's level. She can't tank nukes or Galactus, she can't go toe to toe with someone possessing the unipower, and she certainly can't beat Proteus. She has molecular control, he has subatomic. She has some barely global tp feats, he kept up astrally with Pulsar at lightspeed, and has plenty of global magnetic feats. She has no reaction feats that are even comparable, and no combat feats that are close. You actually think she can win, because she has one viable attack, that worked two out of probably a thousand times? I wouldn't be betting on anything with those kind of odds.

@yodagod said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

I'll remember that as soon as you remember that when Jean got into his mind bypassing his will and helmet, his plot induced psi powers were no more and she was much more powerful than she was before. Those same reflexes failed him even though he had surprise attacked them before their plane even landed. I'm not going by only her saying it, Revolution proves that what she said was true. It was even said by Cable and the Xmen when they fought those Neo that she was using more power than before and that they were afraid she was in Dark Phoenix territory, the very reason why she tells Scott months before that she holds back...it scares her friends when she doesn't.

The fact still remains that he has far more wins against her and her various teams. I'm not arguing that she often held back. The point is that it doesn't matter. She also often went "all out". Even the Phoenix Force when in the midst of the bottle effect was flabbergasted..."I thought I had unlimited power". She was trying to use it all. It didn't work then, it hasn't worked many other times, holding back or not, and there's no reason to think it would be different here. She's in all likelihood, more powerful than Mags overall. But she still isn't a match for his intellect, versatility, and control, even with Lorna as backup. Whether it's tk or tp, she has two PIS showings against Magneto from a single writer. He has fifty years of not just beating her (and her team), but beating her at her own game, with her own powers. Not just winning, but humiliating her (and her team, and other teams including the other X-teams, the Fantastic Four, and a few incarnations of the Avengers). As to the Neo...The X-Men had to work just to keep up with any one of the Neo. The Neo are the stage of evolution beyond mutants. Most have several powers, and even the weakest are far more powerful than the average mutant. In their first appearance, Domina solo'd the entire team, and they've had similar showings since. She killed Sinister dozens of times. Most of the time the X-Men, including Jean, are lucky to survive an encounter with Sinister. Jean had to fight the Neo unleashed just to keep up. Yet still, the Neo think of the X-Men, even Jean, as flatscans. But they bowed before the might of Magneto. You have a single very obvious PIS showing you keep referring to. If they had an astral battle and she won, I'd be willing to acknowledge that she has grown in her ability and control, and Mags would have to find another way to beat her. But instead, they just needed a plot device, ignored all the history of Mags having better tp resistance than pretty much anyone, having tech in his helmet to boost his own tp, and they even the retcon that makes his helmet give him added tp resistance (he never had that until quite recently) and they just said she was in his head all along and he never knew. After all the history, power, and ability Mags has shown, that is pure, unadulterated PIS. You keep calling his abilities PIS. Why? I gave you scans of four instances of Mags using tp himself, and I can give you many more. I don't see why you refuse to acknowledge a dozen showings from seven or eight different writers over the course of at least three entire eras of comics. Being a hater is just as bad as being a fanboy, and I'd like to think you're better than that. When not possessed by the Phoenix, Jean has no actual feats to put her on Magneto's level. She can't tank nukes or Galactus, she can't go toe to toe with someone possessing the unipower, and she certainly can't beat Proteus. She has molecular control, he has subatomic. She has some barely global tp feats, he kept up astrally with Pulsar at lightspeed, and has plenty of global magnetic feats. She has no reaction feats that are even comparable, and no combat feats that are close. You actually think she can win, because she has one viable attack, that worked two out of probably a thousand times? I wouldn't be betting on anything with those kind of odds.

You can keep bringing all that up fact remains later in her life she mind raped him, those stats and feats are all outdated for both of them. As for him and Green Phoenix fighting, she did not have unlimited power at the time regardless of the comment and I have shown scans before proving that when tested directly after this battle there were subconscious blocks placed on her power to keep them at lower levels than what she used when fixing the M'Kraan crystal, you're also ignoring that she was not using telepathy in that battle and then there is the whole her astral form was also fighting a time traveling Dr. Doom at the same time. I'm betting on it because she was not the same when last they met and his power was rebooted and he was just as powerful as he has ever been, it did nothing to stop her mindraping him. I'm betting on it because she was then shown to consistently break through so-called telepathic immunity without the Phoenix. This battle would be different if we were using her from those times before she actually got an upgrade in power while he remained the same minus his PIS induced psi powers that had him rivaling Xavier.

He wins when you take all his feats into consideration (even the PIS ones) while you ignore that both Jean and Lorna have grown in power and skill considerably since previous encounters. He said himself that Lornas power was incredible and used her power to accomplish any feat he could have done with his own, her skill was not on par with him, but then he began to teach her his tricks.

Magneto with ease.

@zackattack529 said:

Magneto with ease.

Yeah with ease 20 years ago

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@zackattack529 said:

Magneto with ease.

Yeah with ease 20 years ago

Well technically as of MARVEL NOW, the jean from 20 years ago applys here. Polaris is still recent so magneto still wins. with a lower level jean

@zackattack529 said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@zackattack529 said:

Magneto with ease.

Yeah with ease 20 years ago

Well technically as of MARVEL NOW, the jean from 20 years ago applys here. Polaris is still recent so magneto still wins. with a lower level jean

The Jean as of Marvel now is time displaced, her existence does not erase the adult Jean or 616 would not exist due to the M'Kraan crystal. The recent Lorna is still the one that had power that rivaled his when he needed it when he was powerless.

Together they definitely have a chance.

@LordOfAllHumans said:

You can keep bringing all that up fact remains later in her life she mind raped him, those stats and feats are all outdated for both of them. As for him and Green Phoenix fighting, she did not have unlimited power at the time regardless of the comment and I have shown scans before proving that when tested directly after this battle there were subconscious blocks placed on her power to keep them at lower levels than what she used when fixing the M'Kraan crystal, you're also ignoring that she was not using telepathy in that battle and then there is the whole her astral form was also fighting a time traveling Dr. Doom at the same time. I'm betting on it because she was not the same when last they met and his power was rebooted and he was just as powerful as he has ever been, it did nothing to stop her mindraping him. I'm betting on it because she was then shown to consistently break through so-called telepathic immunity without the Phoenix. This battle would be different if we were using her from those times before she actually got an upgrade in power while he remained the same minus his PIS induced psi powers that had him rivaling Xavier.

He wins when you take all his feats into consideration (even the PIS ones) while you ignore that both Jean and Lorna have grown in power and skill considerably since previous encounters. He said himself that Lornas power was incredible and used her power to accomplish any feat he could have done with his own, her skill was not on par with him, but then he began to teach her his tricks.

The fact remains that your entire argument is entirely based around a single showing. Nothing is outdated, because it shows what the characters are capable of over time. And while Jean and Lorna have indeed both matured and grown in power, they still are not able to contend with Magneto in your average battle scenario. I'm ignoring nothing. Jean and the Phoenix masquerading as Jean had long since given up on tp against Mags because it doesn't work. It has never worked. The most powerful telepaths on the planet and a few from other planets were never able to make it work. Your example, until proven over time against Magneto (which I guarantee won't happen), will remain PIS.

He wins when you take all of their feats into consideration, and don't hinge on a single occurrence from a bad writer. Everybody has a low end. But a thousand times not being affected by tp, even multiple tp attacks from characters who have equal or greater tp than Jean, outweigh the couple times he has.

@LordOfAllHumans said:

The Jean as of Marvel now is time displaced, her existence does not erase the adult Jean or 616 would not exist due to the M'Kraan crystal. The recent Lorna is still the one that had power that rivaled his when he needed it when he was powerless.

Together they definitely have a chance.

Lorna's power has never rivaled Magneto. Her best feats she only accomplished through Magneto's coaching, or him (with practically no power of his own mind you) usurping her power to use the right way. And doing even simple things, things Magneto took for granted, caused her great strain. She doesn't have the experience, or the intellect to truly utilize the scope and depth or her power. And she certainly doesn't have he feats. She has no global feats, no subatomic feats, no reflex feats, and no sensory feats. She doesn't even compare to Magneto. Lorna's almost as much help as a fly in this scenario. It's more likely that he'll shut her off, then use her powers to augment his own. He's done it before, and he certainly has the brain capacity and multitasking abilities.

@yodagod said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

You can keep bringing all that up fact remains later in her life she mind raped him, those stats and feats are all outdated for both of them. As for him and Green Phoenix fighting, she did not have unlimited power at the time regardless of the comment and I have shown scans before proving that when tested directly after this battle there were subconscious blocks placed on her power to keep them at lower levels than what she used when fixing the M'Kraan crystal, you're also ignoring that she was not using telepathy in that battle and then there is the whole her astral form was also fighting a time traveling Dr. Doom at the same time. I'm betting on it because she was not the same when last they met and his power was rebooted and he was just as powerful as he has ever been, it did nothing to stop her mindraping him. I'm betting on it because she was then shown to consistently break through so-called telepathic immunity without the Phoenix. This battle would be different if we were using her from those times before she actually got an upgrade in power while he remained the same minus his PIS induced psi powers that had him rivaling Xavier.

He wins when you take all his feats into consideration (even the PIS ones) while you ignore that both Jean and Lorna have grown in power and skill considerably since previous encounters. He said himself that Lornas power was incredible and used her power to accomplish any feat he could have done with his own, her skill was not on par with him, but then he began to teach her his tricks.

The fact remains that your entire argument is entirely based around a single showing. Nothing is outdated, because it shows what the characters are capable of over time. And while Jean and Lorna have indeed both matured and grown in power, they still are not able to contend with Magneto in your average battle scenario. I'm ignoring nothing. Jean and the Phoenix masquerading as Jean had long since given up on tp against Mags because it doesn't work. It has never worked. The most powerful telepaths on the planet and a few from other planets were never able to make it work. Your example, until proven over time against Magneto (which I guarantee won't happen), will remain PIS.

He wins when you take all of their feats into consideration, and don't hinge on a single occurrence from a bad writer. Everybody has a low end. But a thousand times not being affected by tp, even multiple tp attacks from characters who have equal or greater tp than Jean, outweigh the couple times he has.

@LordOfAllHumans said:

The Jean as of Marvel now is time displaced, her existence does not erase the adult Jean or 616 would not exist due to the M'Kraan crystal. The recent Lorna is still the one that had power that rivaled his when he needed it when he was powerless.

Together they definitely have a chance.

Lorna's power has never rivaled Magneto. Her best feats she only accomplished through Magneto's coaching, or him (with practically no power of his own mind you) usurping her power to use the right way. And doing even simple things, things Magneto took for granted, caused her great strain. She doesn't have the experience, or the intellect to truly utilize the scope and depth or her power. And she certainly doesn't have he feats. She has no global feats, no subatomic feats, no reflex feats, and no sensory feats. She doesn't even compare to Magneto. Lorna's almost as much help as a fly in this scenario. It's more likely that he'll shut her off, then use her powers to augment his own. He's done it before, and he certainly has the brain capacity and multitasking abilities.

How was that bad writing when it was part of a natural progression of a character? So him astral projecting and basically using powers he doesn't have is not bad writing? All your examples of his mental powers are examples of bad writing.

She didn't have the training when he was doing those things and that was causing strain the rushes her power being used in ways she didn't know were possible, if she were not powerful enough to do the things he could like tap into the EM for greater power then it just wouldn't have worked. For months he still went unchallenged due to secretly using her powers instead of his own, he told her he would unlock her power and she even pretended to be him from time to time to hide him being powerless. The worlds governments had been aware of his particular energy signature for quite some time now, if her powers were not at least rivaling his at the time there is no way this ruse could have worked. Is he better than her with control? Yes, but that does not negate the fact that he helped her unlock potential that rivaled his own in output. The first time he tapped her powers shows how great they are when he used them to attack Monolith, before nothing was even slowing him down, her power mixed with his knowledge however did accomplish what an entire team could not.

You seem to be under the impression as most people do that because I side with a particular team or character that I am definitely saying they win. I am merely pointing out that he will not just walk through them, like he did when they were younger and weaker. They certainly have a better chance as they matured then they ever had in the past.

Team should win

Mags FTW!!!!! it will be tough but I think Erik could get the win