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#1 Posted by SHARKBEARAGATOR (1667 posts) - - Show Bio

The Plutonian

Irredeemable #36

Silver Surfer

No morals

Takes place on indestructible planet

Start 15 ft apart

#2 Posted by SHARKBEARAGATOR (1667 posts) - - Show Bio

Little help :P

#3 Posted by Shavo (2061 posts) - - Show Bio

ss wins unless plutonian realizes his power then he wins easily

#4 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah i am going with Surfer. As long as Surfer avoid a meele, he has matter manipulation which would wreck Plutonian. Surfer could just trap him in his board.

But if he , for whatever reason, goes for a direct assault, h2h or anything like that, Surfer is screwed.

#5 Posted by dondave (37380 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall:IIRC the plutonians powers come from Matter Manipulation and after he met the Eleos he learned how to control his matter manipulation, would it really work against him,

#6 Posted by SHARKBEARAGATOR (1667 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave: Did he really learn how to control it I thought it was still a non-conscious thing

#7 Edited by Charlie_Jade (523 posts) - - Show Bio

A bloodlusted Surfer can hit harder than Chary(who beat Plutonian), its also possible Bette's raygun could have seriously injured or killed Plutonian

Plutonian had trouble with radiation, Surfer eats that stuff, gamma, heat, xray, particles, photons...he eats it all

Silver Surfer can bliss Plutonian with telepathy making him chill out or Surfer can transmute him to gold, wood, dust, ash...

The Surfer is faster than Plutonian

#8 Posted by Nefarious (20307 posts) - - Show Bio

Silver Surfer.

Online
#9 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@Killemall:IIRC the plutonians powers come from Matter Manipulation and after he met the Eleos he learned how to control his matter manipulation, would it really work against him,

Why not, having matter manipulation is not going to prevent his body from being dispersed into atoms as surfer has done before.

Defenders 13 Converts a un-named monster into atom

And Surfer's matter manipulation is on planetary level :) has 2 feats of planetary level matter manipulation.

Plutonian matter manipulation is all but dragging a certain mineral from earth.

#10 Posted by dondave (37380 posts) - - Show Bio

@SHARKBEARAGATOR: Initially it was subconsciously but after he met the eleos and grew the extra finger he learned to control but I don't know how well

@Killemall: His powers come from matter manipulation, couldn't he theoretically increase his durability to counter Silver Surfer's matter manipulation

#11 Edited by SlimJ87D (9911 posts) - - Show Bio

@SHARKBEARAGATOR said:

Little help :P

There's a lot of good post from Killemall that show Silver Surfer is pretty slow.

The only thing I know of that makes SS fast in my book is his fight with the runner.

Plutonian IMO is a lot faster mentally than SS. He has taken a beating from Modeus, which Killemall I think disagrees, that is much higher than anything that SS has ever dished out. I'm going to say Plutonian.

Matter Manipulation has become a little overrated power to me. I think I would count it if a character has been shown to use it against very powerful foes. But why couldn't SS just matter anipulate Thanos at any given time?

#12 Edited by Charlie_Jade (523 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

Matter Manipulation has become a little overrated power to me. I think I would count it if a character has been shown to use it against very powerful foes. But why couldn't SS just matter anipulate Thanos at any given time?

Thanos is more or less a 'God' ,

at the start of his life he was born powerful like some kind of deviant, mutant or eternal....and as he grew he started studying technology and black magic to amp himself on levels near Galactus and Odin

Surfer has atomized people before, he has literally turned Thanos into a stone husk and blown him to dust

It's pretty pointless to manipulate Thanos because he also manipulates matter and he came back from the dead many times, Thanos is like Onslaught or Dr Manhattan, he survives without a body, even resisted reality warping

Drax blasted Thanos into little bits and he just willed himself back to existence and tore Drax apart

Ok sure a writer like Bendis comes along and punks Thanos toning him down but manipulating Thanos or transmuting him SHOULD NOT BE EASY...even for Surfer

@SlimJ87D said:

The only thing I know of that makes SS fast in my book is his fight with the runner.

.

P

,

#13 Edited by SlimJ87D (9911 posts) - - Show Bio

@Charlie_Jade: I don't know if I should bother with you, you seem like one of those annoying debaters that just tries to get more and more annoying as the debate goes on continuously posting memes after every post.

#14 Posted by Sideslash (5907 posts) - - Show Bio

@Charlie_Jade said:

@SlimJ87D said:

The only thing I know of that makes SS fast in my book is his fight with the runner.

.

P

,

Can I join in?

#15 Edited by Charlie_Jade (523 posts) - - Show Bio

Surfer has many manipulation feats

I

Surfer has over 60+ years of history with all feats in continuity

and he has used matter manipulation in battles many, many times

How can you legitimately state 'Matter Manipulation has become an overrated power'??

#16 Posted by SlimJ87D (9911 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: See, this is what makes me wonder sometimes.

#17 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@Killemall: See, this is what makes me wonder sometimes.

I am a bit surprised , what are we talking about here? Sorry i am a bit lost.

Also that Thanos stone scan is misrepresented. One was when Thanos faked his death, the other was when thanos with IG created a stone husk to talk to surfer. Surfer never turned Thanos into stone and Thanos has high resistance to matter manipulation.

@dondave said:

@SHARKBEARAGATOR: Initially it was subconsciously but after he met the eleos and grew the extra finger he learned to control but I don't know how well

@Killemall: His powers come from matter manipulation, couldn't he theoretically increase his durability to counter Silver Surfer's matter manipulation

He possible could, he has never done that on panel. The best he has done is made himself intangible.

#18 Posted by SlimJ87D (9911 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: About people trolling the board.

#19 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@Killemall: About people trolling the board.

Yeah there isnt much you can do about that.

#20 Edited by Charlie_Jade (523 posts) - - Show Bio

There should be a sticky at the top of battles

Is Surfer faster than light?

YES....many times in his 60+ years of history he showed many, many FTL speeds

Does Silver Surfer have fast reflexes?

YES...microsecond, nano second and even searched an entire planet before Doc Strange finished his sentence

Is Batman more skilled than Captain America?

YES...Batman is the better martial artist

Does Cap have higher endurance than Batman?

YES....Captain America's serum means he has almost endless stamina in a fight, he will endure and endure and rarely tire out in a fight

Can Back Adam beat Manhunter in telepathy?

NO... some of the WW3 feats are PIS

Does Wonder Woman have an answer to heat vision?

YES....She has speed to react to Superman's heat vision and her bracelets can block almost anything

Would Bane defeat the Thing?

No, never, not even with prep

Can Hulk lift more than one hundred tons as stated in the Marvel handbook?

YES....Namor, Hercules, Thor, Ironman and Hulk have lifted objects weighing thousands of tons

and yes it does get tiring when well established posters ignore all previous evidence

ignore all previous scans and ignore previous battle debates and instead bring up the same trolling arguments over and over again

and yes Thanos is more powerful than Surfer

I wasn't showing Surfer beating him, just illustrating a point about Surfer using transmutation, disintegration or molecular manipulation in battles

#21 Edited by SlimJ87D (9911 posts) - - Show Bio

@Charlie_Jade said:

I wasn't showing Surfer beating him, just illustrating a point about Surfer using transmutation, disintegration or molecular manipulation in battles

@Charlie_Jade said:

@SlimJ87D said:

Matter Manipulation has become a little overrated power to me. I think I would count it if a character has been shown to use it against very powerful foes. But why couldn't SS just matter anipulate Thanos at any given time?

Surfer has atomized people before, he has literally turned Thanos into a stone husk and blown him to dust

@Killemall said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@Killemall: See, this is what makes me wonder sometimes.

I am a bit surprised , what are we talking about here? Sorry i am a bit lost.

Also that Thanos stone scan is misrepresented. One was when Thanos faked his death, the other was when thanos with IG created a stone husk to talk to surfer. Surfer never turned Thanos into stone and Thanos has high resistance to matter manipulation.

@dondave said:

@SHARKBEARAGATOR: Initially it was subconsciously but after he met the eleos and grew the extra finger he learned to control but I don't know how well

@Killemall: His powers come from matter manipulation, couldn't he theoretically increase his durability to counter Silver Surfer's matter manipulation

He possible could, he has never done that on panel. The best he has done is made himself intangible.

#22 Edited by SlimJ87D (9911 posts) - - Show Bio

@SHARKBEARAGATOR:

Because you asked me to give my input, I will.

First, who is more durable?

The Plutonian has been shown to take multiple blows, each equating to the energy of a star. First of all, this happened because he was emotionally distressed and sexually confused so he wasn't fighting back but rather listening to Modeus talk.

I don't believe Silver Surfer has dished out this much power in his punches. And don't believe that BS about Plutonian absorbing radiation and dying from it. It was a specific type of special radiation that Modeus, someone that is on Reed Richards level of intelligence created. It's not like it came form a normal nuclear bomb. If you want to pull out BS, remember Doctor Doom stole Silver Surfer's powers once too.

It had a unique nature. Not only that, But Plutonian died right after he received dozens of those star energized blows and he had a magic wax that kills anything in his heart. And if you are wondering why he couldn't prevent Quibit from doing it, it's because Quibit had dozens of things to stop people from reading his mind. You could argue that he candle might have not had anything to do with Tony's death, but the special radiation and receiving dozens of star energized blows did, and most likely the candle did as Quibit's intentions was to trick him all along in the end.

But what about Matter Manipulation?

Matter Manipulation

So people want to argue that SS can use matter manipulation easily. Well first of all, he's never just simply used matter manipulation against an opponent as durable as Plutonian. You can see that other guy in this thread fail when he was BS about SS matter manipulation Thanos because SS didn't.

Second, as you know Plutonian became aware of his powers and how he kept himself mentally together through matter manipulation. He has control over his own body being able to also turn it intangible. Besides the intangible part, sound familiar?

So the first time MM man was able to blow the Sentry up. But once Sentry realized that he had control over his own molecules MM couldn't manipulate his matter anymore. Plutonian is already aware about his powers and his own molecules He might not be able to control MM man, but it's probably enough to get by and stop SS from simply transmuting him. So two arguments, has SS ever transmuted someone as durable as the Plutonian? No. Has there been an occurance where a matter manipulator failed to transmute another person that has control over their own molcules? Yes. Now I will present a third argument. What if he can't manipulate what he can't keep up with? Is Silver Surfer faster than Plutonian?

Speed

I really can't present a better argument than Citizenbane here. Killemall has another great post about Silver Surfers speed too.

@CitizenBane said:

".....was still just a board"

@Malevolent1 said:

LOL! Seriously? The official handbook of the Marvel universe also makes the assertion in one hand book that Thor can only press 95 tons; in another that he can press over 100. Can't believe you seriously are relying on the hand books of the Marvel Universe which are so inaccurate it's unbelievable. I KNOW one of the guys that assisted in the writing of the hand book. The hand books are one of the reasons we try to reach conclusions based on what the characters have demonstrated they can do on panel or or reasonably of. In the comic book. Not the hand book.

Eh, if you insist.

Silver Surfer #122, when Surfer thought Zenn-La faced imminent destruction, at one of his most desperate moments ever, he used a wormhole to traverse light years in seconds. Why go to all that bother if he could do it himself without a wormhole?

Silver Surfer #5, while traveling to the Singularity, Surfer shifts into hyperspace right as he approaches the speed of light.

The simplest thing you could do is post one feat from the last 10 years where Surfer flies faster than light without hyperspace. Even in recent stories like his tie-in to Annihilation, he's traversing light years to Galactus by opening portals in space.

Just one feat from the last 10 years, that's all I ask. Surely that should be a simple enough request. Or will you continue to come up empty as you have done for every other type of feat in this thread thus far? Your reasoning here is akin to claiming that since Wolverine technically has never been stated in any comic book to be more durable than he was back in the 70's-80's, all of his showings from back then when he could be punched unconscious by ninjas should be valid, even though it's crystal clear that Logan has just been written differently for a long time now.

As for the surfboard? Let's make this real simple. If the Silver Surfer could NOT think and move and react at time travelling speeds as you assert, then how did he arrive at his destination? I mean, this would mean that the board is moving faster than he can think. I mean, we can agree that the board at least responds to Norrin's mental commands, no? If that is the case, how has the Surfer travelled time...ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS...unless he was able to think fast enough to guide it there.

You realize that I have never claimed anything to the contrary thus far, right? Have you even read anything I said above? I've already said that Surfer guides his board mentally, and I've already said that the only thing Surfer is doing while time-traveling is psi-telling his board how fast to go and in what direction. Evidently he can think that fast. And that is the only thing he can clearly do at those speeds. It is, in fact, possible for characters to have accelerated thought processes that don't reflect in their own innate physical speed. Ask Xavier or Jean Grey or just about any telepath who's mastered some field of science by downloading and processing all the relevant information in that field in a matter of milliseconds. Surfer's not moving and he's not reacting. All he's doing is thinking, and the board does the moving for him. I've asked you to produce scans that show that Surfer can move his limbs at those speeds, and you've failed to do so. Color me clueless if you think your myriad hypotheses about what Surfer should be able to do should take precedence over clear and indisputable on-panel instances of him actually pulling those feats off. Surely an enthusiast like yourself, in possession of every issue of Surfer's book, should be able to fulfill a request so utterly mundane? I mean, there are Spider-Man villains who can move their limbs at superhuman speeds to deliver thousands of hits. Surely Radd the Radical must have something of the sort for himself? No? Just one instance? Can you not do that much?

And his time travel feat involved him going around earth. Does that sound like a straight line to you?

........I don't know if you just haven't followed or haven't read anything I said, but at no point have I ever said Surfer is limited to guiding his board in straight lines. Why exactly are you attempting to refute things I never said?

Here are two examples of him guiding his board to move in non-straight line patterns while he himself is clearly stationary on it, holding onto someone else. First he's holding onto a duplicate Shalla Bal created by Galactus:

And then, just for you, here's Surfer holding onto Alicia Masters while time-traveling. Both of them are standing still as the board moves between timelines.

I suppose Surfer was moving and reacting while holding onto these two ladies, neither of whom have superhuman attributes of any kind? I sincerely hope that's not a conclusion you arrive at, because if Surfer was moving his limbs at greatly superhuman speeds while holding onto them, they'd get ragdolled all over the skies and probably torn to pieces. So far, you've produced a grand total of squat to back up your claims. This is kinda unreasonable, you know? I'm asking for one scan.

And allow me to clarify. I understand the Surfboard and the Surfer are not physically connected.

Hallelujah

They are one in that the board responds to his mental commands as if it were an extension of his own body.

LMAO, I have been saying this from the beginning. You were the one insisting that they are literally one and the same. At any rate, here is a more in-depth description of the Surfer's board from his own book, wherein the board is given all kinds of descriptive phrases other than literally being a portion of the Surfer's body.

This is pretty clear to me. Sorry it's not to you.
The fight with Durok should be clear evidence that the Surfer can move and react and fight after having passed the time barrier.

Sure, if you get ridiculously creative with your interpretations of that fight, and evidently that's not an issue here, non?

What is even more fascinating about that feat is he is still engaged in a struggle with Durok while mentally commanding the board.

Lol, it's not fascinating, it just makes your argument all the more ludicrous. Durok is a slow brick who does not have a single showing that makes him faster than even street levelers like Wolverine and Spider-Man. Surfer would not need lightspeed reflexes to beat the crap out of him. He would barely even need hypersonic reflexes. And yet you're suggesting Durok put up a fight against a Surfer who was moving his limbs at trans-light speeds? For the love of god......

And the fact that he can mentally guide (which implies he would have to change the direction of the board) is an indication that he can move and react at those speeds, and did do with Durok.

Not really. It's just an indication that he can think at those speeds, not that he can move his limbs at superhuman speeds. That much is evident no matter how much you prefer to claim otherwise.

Aside from his fight with Durok, there are few instances where the Surfer actually DEMONSTRATES combat feats at those speeds. I get that.

You say "few", I prefer "non-existent", but it takes all kinds to make a world.

But it's just as ridiculous to assert he is NOT capable when he can clearly think and move and react at those speeds.

Why? No seriously, why? You can bleat hoarse about the Durok incident, but your interpretation of that is just wrong, frankly. You can see Surfer's not moving because Durok is restraining him from doing anything like moving his limbs, and yet you insist that it proves he can move and react at those speeds? Even though the only thing clear from that instance is that Surfer can think that fast? And all that aside, why shouldn't I assert that he's not capable of moving his limbs at the speeds Superman does? You want scans of Superman or Flash tossing out hundreds of punches in a second? I can make dozens available to you at a moment's notice. I ask for one scan of Surfer doing the same and I get zilch apart from theorizing and hypothesizing that he should be able to do so. Get real. For that matter Surfer himself has been on the receiving end of that kind of blitzing. In his fight with Ganymede, he managed to tag her staff after she hit him about a half dozen times. In other words, she's moving her limbs at superhuman speeds to deliver multiple hits in a small period of time, whereas he's just performing one limb movement to deliver one hit in one moment. See the difference?

Contrast that with Superboy-Prime getting attacked by the Flashes and fighting them off by moving his limbs at rapid speeds to deliver multiple hits, just to note the difference in the two responses:

See how Prime moves his limbs so fast there appears to be a dozen of his fists in the air? Show me Surfer doing that. Show me a single instance of Surfer doing what Ganymede does above. That is the only thing you have to do, and it seems like a simple enough task.

You try to paint the character a statue at those speeds. He has to think to maneuver at that speed, yes or no? Why wouldn't he be able to fight at those speeds (aside from the fight with Durok)? Would you have everyone here believe that the Surfer is a statue at those speeds?

By all means, prove me wrong! Just one scan! Just one! Why is that so hard to do? Thinking and reacting are two separate things. Mr. X could read Quicksilver's mind and predict what he'd do and how to counter it, but he simply couldn't react fast enough to prevent Quicksilver from beating the daylights out of him. The mind was willing, but the limbs were unable.

Better yet, if he cannot react at those speeds, he obviously cannot think fast enough to do so, neither would he be able to manipulate is board in a circle around the earth, much less struggle with Durok.

My turn to provide a walkthrough. Bear with me.

  • Surfer's board is guided by his thoughts.
  • Surfer's board moves at a particular speed because he issues a thought commanding it to, and it moves in a particular direction for the same reason.
  • While moving, if Surfer wants to make a change of direction, he issues a new thought commanding the board to make that change.
  • A thought is not a physical action.
  • Surfer does not need to move his limbs at superhuman speeds to issue thoughts.
  • It is perfectly possible for comic book characters to have accelerated thought patterns that are not reflected in their physical speed. Examples abound.
  • Surfer being able to manipulate his board in a particular direction or travel pattern is a function of his thoughts and the ability of his thoughts to keep pace with his board's speed.
  • At no point does the speed of his limbs play any role.
  • At no point does the speed of his limbs even need to play any role, because his limbs don't command the board. His thoughts do.
  • Struggling with Durok while supposedly moving your limbs at FTL speeds is an absurd notion. Come on, think this stuff through first.

Ta-da.

And you are responding to me for someone else's comment. "I don't think Jonn would stand up to a matter manipulator of his level for very long"....I didn't say that.

Uh, no. You asked me to elaborate on why I said Norrin wins. I replied. Keep up.

Extra dimensional, interdimensional, what's the diff?

One is between dimensions, the other is outside conventional dimensions......you know, what "inter" and "extra" mean, basically.

If hyperspace was the reason Surfer was able to travel past the time barrier as you assert, and he is outside this universe when he is travelling that way, how would the effects of time travel had any effect on Durok?

I said hyperspace was the reason Surfer was able to travel faster than light. He is outside the universe when he is in hyperspace. Why would conditions outside the universe be conducive to Durok? His KO is attributed to temporal disorientation. Who says traveling outside the universe doesn't disorient someone who's not prepared or capable of it? Jenny Quantum recently teleported to hyperspace and nearly passed out because she couldn't survive there, but at the same time Green Lanterns access hyperspace on a regular basis without any strain.

How would the Surfer have been able to even grapple with Durok?

A far better question: "How would Durok have been able to even grapple with the Surfer at those speeds?".

Your assertion that the Surfer could not throw a punch while travelling time is no more so ridiculous than asserting the Flash has increased durability because of the speed force. And you're right, for purposes of discussing a forums battle, Wally travelling at those speeds and fighting IS ridiculous, since he has never shown he can do anything but focus on not trying to bounce around in the speed force while moving at that speed. Just trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but whatever.

Cute. I eagerly await with bated breath the moment when you can back up anything you've said thus far with something more concrete than what-ifs and should-be's and everything other than on-panel fact. You assert that Surfer can move his limbs to deliver thousands of punches in a short period of time the way Superman can, and yet you have failed to provide a single scan as evidence of the same every time you've been asked. If nothing else, you're consistent.

Surfer does not have a single showing to suggest his combat speed is any greater than Superman's. Deal with it. Or prove me wrong with just a single scan to back up your claims, but thus far that doesn't seem likely.

I still believe that Silver Surfer is a speed house. He's good, don't get me wrong. And he has done feats before that really puts him up there. But he's never been shown to battle at FTL or at these speeds 1000X the speed of light when he travels through Hyperspace. He's never been shown a mental capacity where they think 10000000000000s times faster than a normal person like Flash. Plutonian though hasn't really shown these kind of things either, but he has shown great reaction times. So what kind of speed feats does Plutonian have?

Here a radio signal is transmitted and sent to reveal his identity. It actually gets a head start of him, radio signals travel at light speed. So it even getting a few microseconds ahead of Plutonian means a lot. He still races and beats it. He INSTANTLY goes FTL here.

Not even good old Superman can instantly go light speed like Plutonian did. Superman actually has to charge up for awhile to reach light speed.

Here Superman flew a bit to get to light speed.

Here it says it again, it takes him a little bit to go light speed.

Plutonian didn't just go light speed instantly, he went FASTER as the radio signal left before he flew away. So you want to see a even better speed feat of Plutonian? Here a signal is sent. It has to travel half way around the world. Here's the important part, pay attention. It will reach its destination in a picosecond.

Light travels around the world 7.5 times in a second. This beam did about half of earth in a picosecond. You can do the rest of the math here. But AGAIN, the SIGNAL had a head start. You see it leave and then you see Plutonian go after it. Traveling at FTL speeds, having even a nanosecond head start is a lot. Plutonian still outraces it and beats it.

Conclusion:

So why do I think Plutonian beats SS? Plutonian is durable enough to take multiple star energized punches. There is not enough conclusive proof that Silver Surfer's matter manipulation powers will work on someone like Plutonian. And finally, Plutonian is capable of instantly going FTL making him much much faster than someone like Superman in reaction time.

Silver Surfer probably has greater control over his powers as they are the power of cosmic, but he's dealing with someone that again can take a punch 100 times more powerful than Flash's IMP (Flash's IMP equals a white dwarf star, Plutonian takes full whole stars, multiple ones) and is quite versatile with his own abilities in addition to instantly pushing his body at FTL instantly. I haven't seen Silver Surfer instantaneously go FTL like the Plutonian has.

That's my final 2 cents and I leave this thread at that. has good critiquing on the way I see things. He has some good arguments that disagree with mine on Plutonian. If I needed someone to critique my work I'd ask him to do it.

#23 Posted by NeonGameWave (7782 posts) - - Show Bio

Silver Surfer wins.

#24 Posted by Malevolent1 (1072 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@SHARKBEARAGATOR:

Because you asked me to give my input, I will.

First, who is more durable?

The Plutonian has been shown to take multiple blows, each equating to the energy of a star. First of all, this happened because he was emotionally distressed and sexually confused so he wasn't fighting back but rather listening to Modeus talk.

I don't believe Silver Surfer has dished out this much power in his punches. And don't believe that BS about Plutonian absorbing radiation and dying from it. It was a specific type of special radiation that Modeus, someone that is on Reed Richards level of intelligence created. It's not like it came form a normal nuclear bomb. If you want to pull out BS, remember Doctor Doom stole Silver Surfer's powers once too.

It had a unique nature. Not only that, But Plutonian died right after he received dozens of those star energized blows and he had a magic wax that kills anything in his heart. And if you are wondering why he couldn't prevent Quibit from doing it, it's because Quibit had dozens of things to stop people from reading his mind. You could argue that he candle might have not had anything to do with Tony's death, but the special radiation and receiving dozens of star energized blows did, and most likely the candle did as Quibit's intentions was to trick him all along in the end.

But what about Matter Manipulation?

Matter Manipulation

So people want to argue that SS can use matter manipulation easily. Well first of all, he's never just simply used matter manipulation against an opponent as durable as Plutonian. You can see that other guy in this thread fail when he was BS about SS matter manipulation Thanos because SS didn't.

Second, as you know Plutonian became aware of his powers and how he kept himself mentally together through matter manipulation. He has control over his own body being able to also turn it intangible. Besides the intangible part, sound familiar?

So the first time MM man was able to blow the Sentry up. But once Sentry realized that he had control over his own molecules MM couldn't manipulate his matter anymore. Plutonian is already aware about his powers and his own molecules He might not be able to control MM man, but it's probably enough to get by and stop SS from simply transmuting him. So two arguments, has SS ever transmuted someone as durable as the Plutonian? No. Has there been an occurance where a matter manipulator failed to transmute another person that has control over their own molcules? Yes. Now I will present a third argument. What if he can't manipulate what he can't keep up with? Is Silver Surfer faster than Plutonian?

Speed

I really can't present a better argument than Citizenbane here. Killemall has another great post about Silver Surfers speed too.

@CitizenBane said:

".....was still just a board"

@Malevolent1 said:

LOL! Seriously? The official handbook of the Marvel universe also makes the assertion in one hand book that Thor can only press 95 tons; in another that he can press over 100. Can't believe you seriously are relying on the hand books of the Marvel Universe which are so inaccurate it's unbelievable. I KNOW one of the guys that assisted in the writing of the hand book. The hand books are one of the reasons we try to reach conclusions based on what the characters have demonstrated they can do on panel or or reasonably of. In the comic book. Not the hand book.

Eh, if you insist.

Silver Surfer #122, when Surfer thought Zenn-La faced imminent destruction, at one of his most desperate moments ever, he used a wormhole to traverse light years in seconds. Why go to all that bother if he could do it himself without a wormhole?

Silver Surfer #5, while traveling to the Singularity, Surfer shifts into hyperspace right as he approaches the speed of light.

The simplest thing you could do is post one feat from the last 10 years where Surfer flies faster than light without hyperspace. Even in recent stories like his tie-in to Annihilation, he's traversing light years to Galactus by opening portals in space.

Just one feat from the last 10 years, that's all I ask. Surely that should be a simple enough request. Or will you continue to come up empty as you have done for every other type of feat in this thread thus far? Your reasoning here is akin to claiming that since Wolverine technically has never been stated in any comic book to be more durable than he was back in the 70's-80's, all of his showings from back then when he could be punched unconscious by ninjas should be valid, even though it's crystal clear that Logan has just been written differently for a long time now.

As for the surfboard? Let's make this real simple. If the Silver Surfer could NOT think and move and react at time travelling speeds as you assert, then how did he arrive at his destination? I mean, this would mean that the board is moving faster than he can think. I mean, we can agree that the board at least responds to Norrin's mental commands, no? If that is the case, how has the Surfer travelled time...ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS...unless he was able to think fast enough to guide it there.

You realize that I have never claimed anything to the contrary thus far, right? Have you even read anything I said above? I've already said that Surfer guides his board mentally, and I've already said that the only thing Surfer is doing while time-traveling is psi-telling his board how fast to go and in what direction. Evidently he can think that fast. And that is the only thing he can clearly do at those speeds. It is, in fact, possible for characters to have accelerated thought processes that don't reflect in their own innate physical speed. Ask Xavier or Jean Grey or just about any telepath who's mastered some field of science by downloading and processing all the relevant information in that field in a matter of milliseconds. Surfer's not moving and he's not reacting. All he's doing is thinking, and the board does the moving for him. I've asked you to produce scans that show that Surfer can move his limbs at those speeds, and you've failed to do so. Color me clueless if you think your myriad hypotheses about what Surfer should be able to do should take precedence over clear and indisputable on-panel instances of him actually pulling those feats off. Surely an enthusiast like yourself, in possession of every issue of Surfer's book, should be able to fulfill a request so utterly mundane? I mean, there are Spider-Man villains who can move their limbs at superhuman speeds to deliver thousands of hits. Surely Radd the Radical must have something of the sort for himself? No? Just one instance? Can you not do that much?

And his time travel feat involved him going around earth. Does that sound like a straight line to you?

........I don't know if you just haven't followed or haven't read anything I said, but at no point have I ever said Surfer is limited to guiding his board in straight lines. Why exactly are you attempting to refute things I never said?

Here are two examples of him guiding his board to move in non-straight line patterns while he himself is clearly stationary on it, holding onto someone else. First he's holding onto a duplicate Shalla Bal created by Galactus:

And then, just for you, here's Surfer holding onto Alicia Masters while time-traveling. Both of them are standing still as the board moves between timelines.

I suppose Surfer was moving and reacting while holding onto these two ladies, neither of whom have superhuman attributes of any kind? I sincerely hope that's not a conclusion you arrive at, because if Surfer was moving his limbs at greatly superhuman speeds while holding onto them, they'd get ragdolled all over the skies and probably torn to pieces. So far, you've produced a grand total of squat to back up your claims. This is kinda unreasonable, you know? I'm asking for one scan.

And allow me to clarify. I understand the Surfboard and the Surfer are not physically connected.

Hallelujah

They are one in that the board responds to his mental commands as if it were an extension of his own body.

LMAO, I have been saying this from the beginning. You were the one insisting that they are literally one and the same. At any rate, here is a more in-depth description of the Surfer's board from his own book, wherein the board is given all kinds of descriptive phrases other than literally being a portion of the Surfer's body.

This is pretty clear to me. Sorry it's not to you.
The fight with Durok should be clear evidence that the Surfer can move and react and fight after having passed the time barrier.

Sure, if you get ridiculously creative with your interpretations of that fight, and evidently that's not an issue here, non?

What is even more fascinating about that feat is he is still engaged in a struggle with Durok while mentally commanding the board.

Lol, it's not fascinating, it just makes your argument all the more ludicrous. Durok is a slow brick who does not have a single showing that makes him faster than even street levelers like Wolverine and Spider-Man. Surfer would not need lightspeed reflexes to beat the crap out of him. He would barely even need hypersonic reflexes. And yet you're suggesting Durok put up a fight against a Surfer who was moving his limbs at trans-light speeds? For the love of god......

And the fact that he can mentally guide (which implies he would have to change the direction of the board) is an indication that he can move and react at those speeds, and did do with Durok.

Not really. It's just an indication that he can think at those speeds, not that he can move his limbs at superhuman speeds. That much is evident no matter how much you prefer to claim otherwise.

Aside from his fight with Durok, there are few instances where the Surfer actually DEMONSTRATES combat feats at those speeds. I get that.

You say "few", I prefer "non-existent", but it takes all kinds to make a world.

But it's just as ridiculous to assert he is NOT capable when he can clearly think and move and react at those speeds.

Why? No seriously, why? You can bleat hoarse about the Durok incident, but your interpretation of that is just wrong, frankly. You can see Surfer's not moving because Durok is restraining him from doing anything like moving his limbs, and yet you insist that it proves he can move and react at those speeds? Even though the only thing clear from that instance is that Surfer can think that fast? And all that aside, why shouldn't I assert that he's not capable of moving his limbs at the speeds Superman does? You want scans of Superman or Flash tossing out hundreds of punches in a second? I can make dozens available to you at a moment's notice. I ask for one scan of Surfer doing the same and I get zilch apart from theorizing and hypothesizing that he should be able to do so. Get real. For that matter Surfer himself has been on the receiving end of that kind of blitzing. In his fight with Ganymede, he managed to tag her staff after she hit him about a half dozen times. In other words, she's moving her limbs at superhuman speeds to deliver multiple hits in a small period of time, whereas he's just performing one limb movement to deliver one hit in one moment. See the difference?

Contrast that with Superboy-Prime getting attacked by the Flashes and fighting them off by moving his limbs at rapid speeds to deliver multiple hits, just to note the difference in the two responses:

See how Prime moves his limbs so fast there appears to be a dozen of his fists in the air? Show me Surfer doing that. Show me a single instance of Surfer doing what Ganymede does above. That is the only thing you have to do, and it seems like a simple enough task.

You try to paint the character a statue at those speeds. He has to think to maneuver at that speed, yes or no? Why wouldn't he be able to fight at those speeds (aside from the fight with Durok)? Would you have everyone here believe that the Surfer is a statue at those speeds?

By all means, prove me wrong! Just one scan! Just one! Why is that so hard to do? Thinking and reacting are two separate things. Mr. X could read Quicksilver's mind and predict what he'd do and how to counter it, but he simply couldn't react fast enough to prevent Quicksilver from beating the daylights out of him. The mind was willing, but the limbs were unable.

Better yet, if he cannot react at those speeds, he obviously cannot think fast enough to do so, neither would he be able to manipulate is board in a circle around the earth, much less struggle with Durok.

My turn to provide a walkthrough. Bear with me.

  • Surfer's board is guided by his thoughts.
  • Surfer's board moves at a particular speed because he issues a thought commanding it to, and it moves in a particular direction for the same reason.
  • While moving, if Surfer wants to make a change of direction, he issues a new thought commanding the board to make that change.
  • A thought is not a physical action.
  • Surfer does not need to move his limbs at superhuman speeds to issue thoughts.
  • It is perfectly possible for comic book characters to have accelerated thought patterns that are not reflected in their physical speed. Examples abound.
  • Surfer being able to manipulate his board in a particular direction or travel pattern is a function of his thoughts and the ability of his thoughts to keep pace with his board's speed.
  • At no point does the speed of his limbs play any role.
  • At no point does the speed of his limbs even need to play any role, because his limbs don't command the board. His thoughts do.
  • Struggling with Durok while supposedly moving your limbs at FTL speeds is an absurd notion. Come on, think this stuff through first.

Ta-da.

And you are responding to me for someone else's comment. "I don't think Jonn would stand up to a matter manipulator of his level for very long"....I didn't say that.

Uh, no. You asked me to elaborate on why I said Norrin wins. I replied. Keep up.

Extra dimensional, interdimensional, what's the diff?

One is between dimensions, the other is outside conventional dimensions......you know, what "inter" and "extra" mean, basically.

If hyperspace was the reason Surfer was able to travel past the time barrier as you assert, and he is outside this universe when he is travelling that way, how would the effects of time travel had any effect on Durok?

I said hyperspace was the reason Surfer was able to travel faster than light. He is outside the universe when he is in hyperspace. Why would conditions outside the universe be conducive to Durok? His KO is attributed to temporal disorientation. Who says traveling outside the universe doesn't disorient someone who's not prepared or capable of it? Jenny Quantum recently teleported to hyperspace and nearly passed out because she couldn't survive there, but at the same time Green Lanterns access hyperspace on a regular basis without any strain.

How would the Surfer have been able to even grapple with Durok?

A far better question: "How would Durok have been able to even grapple with the Surfer at those speeds?".

Your assertion that the Surfer could not throw a punch while travelling time is no more so ridiculous than asserting the Flash has increased durability because of the speed force. And you're right, for purposes of discussing a forums battle, Wally travelling at those speeds and fighting IS ridiculous, since he has never shown he can do anything but focus on not trying to bounce around in the speed force while moving at that speed. Just trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but whatever.

Cute. I eagerly await with bated breath the moment when you can back up anything you've said thus far with something more concrete than what-ifs and should-be's and everything other than on-panel fact. You assert that Surfer can move his limbs to deliver thousands of punches in a short period of time the way Superman can, and yet you have failed to provide a single scan as evidence of the same every time you've been asked. If nothing else, you're consistent.

Surfer does not have a single showing to suggest his combat speed is any greater than Superman's. Deal with it. Or prove me wrong with just a single scan to back up your claims, but thus far that doesn't seem likely.

I still believe that Silver Surfer is a speed house. He's good, don't get me wrong. And he has done feats before that really puts him up there. But he's never been shown to battle at FTL or at these speeds 1000X the speed of light when he travels through Hyperspace. He's never been shown a mental capacity where they think 10000000000000s times faster than a normal person like Flash. Plutonian though hasn't really shown these kind of things either, but he has shown great reaction times. So what kind of speed feats does Plutonian have?

Here a radio signal is transmitted and sent to reveal his identity. It actually gets a head start of him, radio signals travel at light speed. So it even getting a few microseconds ahead of Plutonian means a lot. He still races and beats it. He INSTANTLY goes FTL here.

Not even good old Superman can instantly go light speed like Plutonian did. Superman actually has to charge up for awhile to reach light speed.

Here Superman flew a bit to get to light speed.

Here it says it again, it takes him a little bit to go light speed.

Plutonian didn't just go light speed instantly, he went FASTER as the radio signal left before he flew away. So you want to see a even better speed feat of Plutonian? Here a signal is sent. It has to travel half way around the world. Here's the important part, pay attention. It will reach its destination in a picosecond.

Light travels around the world 7.5 times in a second. This beam did about half of earth in a picosecond. You can do the rest of the math here. But AGAIN, the SIGNAL had a head start. You see it leave and then you see Plutonian go after it. Traveling at FTL speeds, having even a nanosecond head start is a lot. Plutonian still outraces it and beats it.

Conclusion:

So why do I think Plutonian beats SS? Plutonian is durable enough to take multiple star energized punches. There is not enough conclusive proof that Silver Surfer's matter manipulation powers will work on someone like Plutonian. And finally, Plutonian is capable of instantly going FTL making him much much faster than someone like Superman in reaction time.

Silver Surfer probably has greater control over his powers as they are the power of cosmic, but he's dealing with someone that again can take a punch 100 times more powerful than Flash's IMP (Flash's IMP equals a white dwarf star, Plutonian takes full whole stars, multiple ones) and is quite versatile with his own abilities in addition to instantly pushing his body at FTL instantly. I haven't seen Silver Surfer instantaneously go FTL like the Plutonian has.

That's my final 2 cents and I leave this thread at that. has good critiquing on the way I see things. He has some good arguments that disagree with mine on Plutonian. If I needed someone to critique my work I'd ask him to do it.

First of all, I know nothing about the Plutonian. So I really don't know what the outcome of the battle would be between him and the Silver Surfer.

Secondly, using an argument from Citizen Bane to indicate the Surfer's speed...not a good idea. Particularly when he is completely wrong.

Do you have any thoughts of your own on the Surfer's speed? Love to hear your perspective. You sound very well read on the Silver Surfer.

#25 Posted by GhostRider2 (3304 posts) - - Show Bio

Silver Surfer owns yet again.

#26 Edited by Charlie_Jade (523 posts) - - Show Bio

Surfer should win here

Yes your making some kind of point Slim but TheSentry beating MoleculeMan has to be one of the most retarded scans in comicboook history, its total PIS

Bendis is a terrible writer

You should stop posting that scan SlimJ87D

and something a lot of people like Citizenbane don't get is Surfer's fighting style, he's from a planet of peace so his hand to hand abilities are low, Surfer in battle falls into habits because of comfort

he zips by on his board and shoots archer style i.e. fighting style he prefers to fight like a .guy on horse tossing bolts or a 50 Cal M2 firing full auto from a humvee or a Starship from StarWars flying by and blasting beams

Silver Surfer don't kick, elbow and throw multiple punches, its not his style....he's more Captain Picard. Surfer's fighting style is fly past and “flash-bang”

Anyways what's to prevent Surfer from simply draining the power out of Plutonian?

Silver Surfer drains enemies, pure and simple.

I don't see why Surfer couldn't repeat the same radiation against Plutonian

energy and radiation is Surfer's thing, and cosmic awareness has helped Surfer in battlles

.

#27 Posted by SHARKBEARAGATOR (1667 posts) - - Show Bio

BUMP :P

#28 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

Still Surfer :)

And for the record, Surfer is still more versatile.

#29 Posted by SHARKBEARAGATOR (1667 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall:Big elaborate post about why he wins please :)

#30 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@SHARKBEARAGATOR said:

@Killemall:Big elaborate post about why he wins please :)

Yes sir.:)

Firstly, Plutonian has pretty much always been a brute, granted given his origin there was a speculation made that he can potentially become a reality warper,however this is a potential he might some day be, sure he is surrounded by a lots and lots of hyperbole, even been called near omnipotent at times, but feats show otherwise.

So firstly the hyperbole from Irredeemable Special 01

So if you go via bio, then yeah no one in Surfer league can beat him.

The problem being its unsubstantiated and he doesnt have feats to prove he is "that" powerful.

Irredeemable 25, 2 of the mega brains of Irredeemable universe Modeus and Qubit were discussing about his powers.

That problem being these are things he can do if he moves from Kinder Garden to Grade School, not to mention these are actually unsubstantive guesses from the two of what he might be able to do as oppose to what he normally does, which would be mind-over matter.

This is further enforced by the fact that Toni himself said he cannot stop/ turn back time, obviously because he doesnt know how to.

The scan below is from Irredeemable 16

So he has potential to be a near omnipotent being, problem being its an unrealized potential and frankly he doesnt know how to use it.

Towards the end of the series he does learn few new tricks , not disagreeing that.

Here are tricks that Qubit taught Tony, scans below are from Irredeemable 34

So the abilities being taught was manipulating atomic density, exploiting quantum entanglement, inertia negation and telekenesis.

So cool abilities nothing that alludes him being able to escape the exotic powers of Silver Surfer, but more on the Surfer's part later.

Now, had this been a meele yeah Plutonian have better durability feat than Surfer and i would expect Plutonian to win. Problem is it doesnt have to be a meele given Surfer's powers.

Why?

Lets start with Speed.

Marvel Comics Presents 01: Nanosecond reaction time

Silver Surfer Volume 3, issue 143: Another nanosecond reaction time

Surfer has pretty good, well documented reaction time.

Silver Surfer Volume 3, Issue 122: Traps Legacy (Genis Vell) in his board, he has done so to Jack of Hearts as well

Silver Surfer has extremely powerful molecule manipulation, and can disperse Plutonian's body into nothing but atoms , the first scan shows him doing exactly that to a un-named monster, while the latter scan shows him performing molecule manipulation on a planetary scale, used to justify that he could do this to even someone as durable as Plutonian (coz that dude is sure as hell uber durable)

Defenders 13 Converts a un-named monster into atom

Silver Surfer Volume 4 Issue 14: Surfer repairs a dying earth

This is one of the two planetary level matter manipulation Silver Surfer has performed, and if someone can in fact matter manipulate on a planetary scale manipulating Plutonian's body shouldnt be above and beyond his abilities. This is not a tactic Surfer would normally use with morals on, without morals there is really nothing stopping surfer from using such abilities.

Furthermore, while Betty hitting Plutonian with the gravitation power of an entire star is pretty good and dandy and shows his durability, the thing to be noted is, Plutonian in Irredemable 35 was absolutely hepless, and would have likely ended up dead had Qubit not intervened.

Here is the whole fight.

Irredeemable 35

Now given Betty , the lady he is fighting, is Tony's love of his life. One could argue Tony was holding back. Problem being, very next issue, after getting distracted by Qubit, Tony actually kills her, certain shows he likely wasnt holding back.

So this shows a person amped with the power of an entire star can have Plutonian in trouble. Thats not the only time he has struggled.

Irredeemable 08: Charybdis, amped on the power of his brother, fights and beats Tony.

Given that Charybdis is a pure energy manipulator, Surfer could likely do this to him.

Furthermore, it leaves Tony vulnerable to his tactic.

Annihilation: Heralds of Galactus 03: Silver Surfer destroys a planet and creates a black hole with ease.

While in a normal state i would assume Plutonian can escape a black hole, can he do that after being hit by a past capable of busting planet and actually ripping a hole in the fabric of space and time?

Also Surfer could simply drag him to astral plane, being a non telepath he is going to be helpless there.

Silver Surfer In Thy Name 03:

So in conclusion: Physically, even in such limited appearance Plutonian has been shown superior to Surfer, problem being while Plutonian is a lot versatile against a Superman class beings, here he is facing a person as versatile as it can get in a herald class. Its Surfer versatility that should win him the fight, as long as he avoid a direct assault Had this been an in character fight, Surfer is outmatched, a morals off, out of character, Surfer has a pretty decent odds of beating him via means listed. :)

That just how i see it, not sure you would agree, i know slim doesnt agree with me but we have agreed to disagree with all respect for both parties.

Thats as detailed as i can go :p, hope this helps.

#31 Posted by Strider92 (16454 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

Yeah i am going with Surfer. As long as Surfer avoid a meele, he has matter manipulation which would wreck Plutonian. Surfer could just trap him in his board.

But if he , for whatever reason, goes for a direct assault, h2h or anything like that, Surfer is screwed.

This

#32 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92: We finally agree on plutonian :) thats awesome. BTW have you read the current Artifact ongoing series, i just started and was told by Bane than Darkness re-created an entire universe, aware of that?

#33 Posted by Strider92 (16454 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: Haven't read artifacts yet (budget D:) but I did hear about the feat. Jackie apparently created his own universe. Saw the scan where he was fighting Angelus and Rapture. Rapture was getting annoyed about Jackie doing it IIRC.

#34 Posted by laflux (15891 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@SHARKBEARAGATOR said:

@Killemall:Big elaborate post about why he wins please :)

Yes sir.:)

Firstly, Plutonian has pretty much always been a brute, granted given his origin there was a speculation made that he can potentially become a reality warper,however this is a potential he might some day be, sure he is surrounded by a lots and lots of hyperbole, even been called near omnipotent at times, but feats show otherwise.

So firstly the hyperbole from Irredeemable Special 01

So if you go via bio, then yeah no one in Surfer league can beat him.

The problem being its unsubstantiated and he doesnt have feats to prove he is "that" powerful.

Irredeemable 25, 2 of the mega brains of Irredeemable universe Modeus and Qubit were discussing about his powers.

That problem being these are things he can do if he moves from Kinder Garden to Grade School, not to mention these are actually unsubstantive guesses from the two of what he might be able to do as oppose to what he normally does, which would be mind-over matter.

This is further enforced by the fact that Toni himself said he cannot stop/ turn back time, obviously because he doesnt know how to.

The scan below is from Irredeemable 16

So he has potential to be a near omnipotent being, problem being its an unrealized potential and frankly he doesnt know how to use it.

Towards the end of the series he does learn few new tricks , not disagreeing that.

Here are tricks that Qubit taught Tony, scans below are from Irredeemable 34

So the abilities being taught was manipulating atomic density, exploiting quantum entanglement, inertia negation and telekenesis.

So cool abilities nothing that alludes him being able to escape the exotic powers of Silver Surfer, but more on the Surfer's part later.

Now, had this been a meele yeah Plutonian have better durability feat than Surfer and i would expect Plutonian to win. Problem is it doesnt have to be a meele given Surfer's powers.

Why?

Lets start with Speed.

Marvel Comics Presents 01: Nanosecond reaction time

Silver Surfer Volume 3, issue 143: Another nanosecond reaction time

Surfer has pretty good, well documented reaction time.

Silver Surfer Volume 3, Issue 122: Traps Legacy (Genis Vell) in his board, he has done so to Jack of Hearts as well

Silver Surfer has extremely powerful molecule manipulation, and can disperse Plutonian's body into nothing but atoms , the first scan shows him doing exactly that to a un-named monster, while the latter scan shows him performing molecule manipulation on a planetary scale, used to justify that he could do this to even someone as durable as Plutonian (coz that dude is sure as hell uber durable)

Defenders 13 Converts a un-named monster into atom

Silver Surfer Volume 4 Issue 14: Surfer repairs a dying earth

This is one of the two planetary level matter manipulation Silver Surfer has performed, and if someone can in fact matter manipulate on a planetary scale manipulating Plutonian's body shouldnt be above and beyond his abilities. This is not a tactic Surfer would normally use with morals on, without morals there is really nothing stopping surfer from using such abilities.

Furthermore, while Betty hitting Plutonian with the gravitation power of an entire star is pretty good and dandy and shows his durability, the thing to be noted is, Plutonian in Irredemable 35 was absolutely hepless, and would have likely ended up dead had Qubit not intervened.

Here is the whole fight.

Irredeemable 35

Now given Betty , the lady he is fighting, is Tony's love of his life. One could argue Tony was holding back. Problem being, very next issue, after getting distracted by Qubit, Tony actually kills her, certain shows he likely wasnt holding back.

So this shows a person amped with the power of an entire star can have Plutonian in trouble. Thats not the only time he has struggled.

Irredeemable 08: Charybdis, amped on the power of his brother, fights and beats Tony.

Given that Charybdis is a pure energy manipulator, Surfer could likely do this to him.

Furthermore, it leaves Tony vulnerable to his tactic.

Annihilation: Heralds of Galactus 03: Silver Surfer destroys a planet and creates a black hole with ease.

While in a normal state i would assume Plutonian can escape a black hole, can he do that after being hit by a past capable of busting planet and actually ripping a hole in the fabric of space and time?

Also Surfer could simply drag him to astral plane, being a non telepath he is going to be helpless there.

Silver Surfer In Thy Name 03:

So in conclusion: Physically, even in such limited appearance Plutonian has been shown superior to Surfer, problem being while Plutonian is a lot versatile against a Superman class beings, here he is facing a person as versatile as it can get in a herald class. Its Surfer versatility that should win him the fight, as long as he avoid a direct assault Had this been an in character fight, Surfer is outmatched, a morals off, out of character, Surfer has a pretty decent odds of beating him via means listed. :)

That just how i see it, not sure you would agree, i know slim doesnt agree with me but we have agreed to disagree with all respect for both parties.

Thats as detailed as i can go :p, hope this helps.

the modesty at the end of the post is what does it for me

Online
#35 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: You know i was pretending to be modest right? Honestly I have been called many things in my life, modest really isnt one of them ;)

#36 Posted by thanobomb1124 (2014 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: you don't say. :-)

#37 Posted by SHARKBEARAGATOR (1667 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: Thank you good sir. Great as always.

#38 Posted by SlimJ87D (9911 posts) - - Show Bio

@SHARKBEARAGATOR: no problem

#39 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@SHARKBEARAGATOR said:

@Killemall: Thank you good sir. Great as always.

if you are trying to get me and slim to debate here, i dont think thats going to happen. We both know we disagree on this topic, although among other things we however agree that in a purely physical encounter, or energy attack Surfer isnt winning this.

The rest Slim has good grounds to not agree with me, and i have good grounds to not agree with Slim. It goes back and forth but doesnt really change the fact that we both respect each other, we both have read the whole irredeemable as well as incorruptible series.

We just agreed to disagree. He has his point, his post was well thought out, i have my points, lets just leave it at that =)

#40 Edited by SlimJ87D (9911 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: hey have you read berserk? I think you'll really like it.

I want someoneelse's opinion on Gorgon vs Guts. s

#41 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@Killemall: hey have you read berserk? I think you'll really like it.

I want someoneelse's opinion on Gorgon vs Guts. s

I havent, will surely check it out. I am actually going away from tomorrow so will likely read it after i come back. Btw Gorgon as in marvel Gorgon? Coz i know very little about him, i am not much of a street level guy, i generally read more stuffs like Thor, Silver Surfer, Captain Marvel , Nova etc.

#42 Posted by SlimJ87D (9911 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: okay well jus Google berserk scans. It's online. I'll PayPal you a dollar if you don't like it lol. That's how sure I am.

#43 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@Killemall: okay well jus Google berserk scans. It's online. I'll PayPal you a dollar if you don't like it lol. That's how sure I am.

Can i read, like it and still ask for a dollar :p, i am a accountant by profession dollars matter to me man ;)

#44 Posted by SlimJ87D (9911 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: if you pass a quiz yeah sure I'll send the dollar lol

#45 Posted by SHARKBEARAGATOR (1667 posts) - - Show Bio

Welp I tried :P good debate from both sides feel free to debate amongst your selfs

#46 Posted by Smart_Dork_Dude (2638 posts) - - Show Bio

Surfer

#47 Posted by monarch_prime (381 posts) - - Show Bio

Plutonian.

#48 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

Really, Plutonian when not at full power is not that impressive either. I think Surfer can still win after a good fight.

#49 Posted by terry2012 (5211 posts) - - Show Bio

The Plutonian.

#50 Posted by Lone_Wolf_and_Cub (5052 posts) - - Show Bio

SS ftw. Irredeemable was a great series btw. Just another great book by Mark Waid.