#1 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4766 posts) - - Show Bio

vs

Round 1:

Fully realized Plutonian, pre-retcon Molecule Man

Round 2:

Fully realized Plutonian, post-retcon Molecule Man

Round 3:

Regular Plutonian, post-retcon Molecule Man

#2 Edited by Shiryu (5357 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Plutonian wins this. Dude was damn near unstoppable in Irredeemable.

EDIT: Also, Post-Retcon Molecule Man got beaten by Sentry. Plutonian would NEVER get beaten by Sentry.

#3 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4766 posts) - - Show Bio

Edited for 3 rounds.

#4 Posted by Shiryu (5357 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre-Retcon Molecule Man was on an even playing field with Pre-Retcon Beyonder, who is considered to be one of the most powerful characters that Marvel has ever created. With that being said, I'm going to go ahead and say I don't see Plutonian winning the first round, as strong as he is. Pre-Retcon Molecule Man is truly a force to be reckoned with, he's like on a Lucifer Morningstar level.

#5 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4766 posts) - - Show Bio

I dunno...Plutonian mastered entropy.

#6 Posted by Hyperlight (7414 posts) - - Show Bio

MM

Plutonian

MM

Online
#7 Edited by Killemall (18771 posts) - - Show Bio

MM all three rounds and assuming Molecule Man is not riddled by PIS, in a stomp.

#8 Edited by laflux (21432 posts) - - Show Bio

MM all three rounds and assuming Molecule Man is not riddled by PIS, in a stomp.

But, but, but couldn't Plutonian use his powers to attack MM with Bendis force, weakening him to defeat?

#9 Edited by czarny_samael666 (17186 posts) - - Show Bio

@shiryu said:

I think Plutonian wins this. Dude was damn near unstoppable in Irredeemable.

EDIT: Also, Post-Retcon Molecule Man got beaten by Sentry. Plutonian would NEVER get beaten by Sentry.

Yes, he would. According what I've just seen Post-R MM was above Kubik. Void won with him, so his mm was simply greater.

Plutonian is not in CC level.

@laflux said:

@killemall said:

MM all three rounds and assuming Molecule Man is not riddled by PIS, in a stomp.

But, but, but couldn't Plutonian use his powers to attack MM with Bendis force, weakening him to defeat?

1.LOL.

2.There was no PIS in this battle. Void never lost a battle of molecular manipulation after he realized what he was doing.

#10 Posted by Killemall (18771 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

But, but, but couldn't Plutonian use his powers to attack MM with Bendis force, weakening him to defeat?

Plutonian doesnt have Bendis force, Rulk and Sentry do :)

But yeah Bendis force is MM kryptonite

2.There was no PIS in this battle. Void never lost a battle of molecular manipulation after he realized what he was doing.

We will never agree to this, because you essentially have 2 options:

1. Believe that Bendis wanted to show Sentry / Void as some uber powerful character,best way to showcase it,beat someone who is deadly powerful, that was MM. So for the purpose of plot Sentry was made to defeat and kill a character way out of his league, thats the very definition of PIS. He says stuffs to himself, so no reason to exaggerate, "ripping out galaxies, thats the easy part".

2. MM, a person who abilities borders on reality manipulation (CCU manipulates reality, he is a CCU being) has a weakness to matter manipulation being used against him, despite having fought and stomped Beyonder, has weakness to being affected by Molecule Manipulation, and Void was genuinely better in molecule manipulation then him, albeit lacking the experience.

Given everything said and done about Sentry i believe 1 is true, you believe 2 is true.

#11 Posted by dondave (40247 posts) - - Show Bio

Molecule Man

#12 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17186 posts) - - Show Bio


@czarny_samael666 said:

2.There was no PIS in this battle. Void never lost a battle of molecular manipulation after he realized what he was doing.

We will never agree to this, because you essentially have 2 options:

1. Believe that Bendis wanted to show Sentry / Void as some uber powerful character,best way to showcase it,beat someone who is deadly powerful, that was MM. So for the purpose of plot Sentry was made to defeat and kill a character way out of his league, thats the very definition of PIS. He says stuffs to himself, so no reason to exaggerate, "ripping out galaxies, thats the easy part".

2. MM, a person who abilities borders on reality manipulation (CCU manipulates reality, he is a CCU being) has a weakness to matter manipulation being used against him, despite having fought and stomped Beyonder, has weakness to being affected by Molecule Manipulation, and Void was genuinely better in molecule manipulation then him, albeit lacking the experience.

Given everything said and done about Sentry i believe 1 is true, you believe 2 is true.

No, I never said that matter manipulation is MM's weakness. I've said that Void has better molecular manipulation than Molecule Man. And it was shown on panel that he has. There is NO other option.

There is nothing to choose, nothing else to belive. We are accepting facts or we don't. As simple as that.

Why WWHulk vs Ghost rider is PIS? Because GR don't belive that there is even one innocent person, so he couldn't ran from fight. If he would have different rules, then he could avoid fight with Hulk.

Why Darwin running from Hulk is PIS? Because his powers always were dealing with his enemy and he never teleported from fight.

But why Darwin vs Hela isn't PIS? Because we've never seen Darwin's full potential. More: he has never done anything close to taking out Hela, but we don't consider this as a PIS, because we didn't know Darwin's limit.

When Thor first time used Godblast against Skyfather level being, he couldn't have any similar feat to that one, so in according to Your logic it was PIS. But it wasn't because Thor never shown limit to this power before.

Hyperion-712's strength never met his limit, so if he will rip star apart like Drax did, it won't be PIS because we don't know his limit.

Void did exactly that. We're never seen any limit for this power. More - he reformed after being thrown in sun. He reformed after magic reality warping attack from Morgana le Fay. Sentry subconsciously bring back his wife.

We knew that there is something behind the scene when it comes to Sentry/Void, but we didn't know what was that. And fight with Molecule Man has shown to us that Void's powers are based on mm and that level of this mm is higher than Owen's.

PIS happens when there is NO answer to what happened in comic. But there is, just people who want to underrate Void refuse to accpet only possible conclusion: Void is above Molecule Man.

If I would be You, I would ONLY possible conclusion and wait for Remender, since he will bring back Sentry and possibly make him some of Celestial creation.

#13 Posted by Killemall (18771 posts) - - Show Bio

No, I never said that matter manipulation is MM's weakness. I've said that Void has better molecular manipulation than Molecule Man. And it was shown on panel that he has. There is NO other option.

There is an easier option, it was PIS.

There is nothing to choose, nothing else to belive. We are accepting facts or we don't. As simple as that.

Fact:

1. Molecule Man power depends on his mental status

2. Molecule Man when not in control of his power was knocked out by Dr. Doom.

3. Molecule Man is vastly more powerful than Void.

4. Bendis has a whole tendency of having character job when its shouldnt logically happen.

So yeah there are so many things so argue , easiest thing part 4 , Bendis.

Why WWHulk vs Ghost rider is PIS? Because GR don't belive that there is even one innocent person, so he couldn't ran from fight. If he would have different rules, then he could avoid fight with Hulk.

Or given Ghost Rider's potrayal, and the story arc, he was chasing Lucifer who has just come on earth, would prioritize them above World War Hulk. Something Ghost Rider tells Johnny Blaze repeatedly before joining the fight against Hulk.

So its not that here were no innocent there, he had to choose between saving people in New York, whom he knew Hulk wasnt going to kill, and he didnt kill anyone, or fight Lucifer who was progressing getting stronger and was going to bring hell on earth.

Easy choice.

I could try and reply below but i have no idea how that is even remotely relevant.

When Thor first time used Godblast against Skyfather level being, he couldn't have any similar feat to that one, so in according to Your logic it was PIS. But it wasn't because Thor never shown limit to this power before.

Excuse me, when did i say anything about Thor in my thread?

And Thor using a god blast against the Dark God has very little do with Molecule Man, admitting Void was more powerful.

And Odin had to actually finish off the fight.

As per Thor godblast not having limit:

1. It was said that Thor godblast, amped a million fold by Designati, wouldnt be sufficient to take down Surtur.

2. Thor used an amped up Godblast against Galactus he did not budge.

So yeah, there is that, but unrelated.

PIS happens when there is NO answer to what happened in comic. But there is, just people who want to underrate Void refuse to accpet only possible conclusion: Void is above Molecule Man.

If I would be You, I would ONLY possible conclusion and wait for Remender, since he will bring back Sentry and possibly make him some of Celestial creation.

So now you have a definition of what PIS is?? And you are going to tell me what to believe and what not to believe.

Void is totally above Molecule Man, but yet , despite being angry, he failed to take down Asgard O_o, when Molecule Man would have just stomped Asgard, specially an Odin less Asgard with a wave of his hand. Very convenient.

It was pretty clearly, Void was supposed to be beyond the level of heroes, but a level of the most powerful cosmic cube being, hogwash.

And he is coming as a horseman of apocalypse.

#14 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17186 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

There is an easier option, it was PIS.

It is always easier, since we can call PIS every possible battle in that way.

Fact:

1. Molecule Man power depends on his mental status

2. Molecule Man when not in control of his power was knocked out by Dr. Doom.

3. Molecule Man is vastly more powerful than Void.

4. Bendis has a whole tendency of having character job when its shouldnt logically happen.

So yeah there are so many things so argue , easiest thing part 4 , Bendis.

1.Which means that this can be a reason why he - according to You - was weakned. I can't say if he was or if it really makes him weaker. IDK. But it wouldn't PIS if he was.

2.IIRC MM without acces to his powers have durability of normal human.

3.No, he isn't according to their battle. It is not a fact, it is Your opinion, that You fail to prove. Only fact that we have about it is that Void won the battle with MM.

4.Yes, but it always has to be proved that something is PIS. You can't say: "It was Bendis, so it doesn't count".

Or given Ghost Rider's potrayal, and the story arc, he was chasing Lucifer who has just come on earth, would prioritize them above World War Hulk. Something Ghost Rider tells Johnny Blaze repeatedly before joining the fight against Hulk.

So its not that here were no innocent there, he had to choose between saving people in New York, whom he knew Hulk wasnt going to kill, and he didnt kill anyone, or fight Lucifer who was progressing getting stronger and was going to bring hell on earth.

According to narration Rider belive that Hulk is innocent.

Excuse me, when did i say anything about Thor in my thread?

And Thor using a god blast against the Dark God has very little do with Molecule Man, admitting Void was more powerful.

And Odin had to actually finish off the fight.

As per Thor godblast not having limit:

1. It was said that Thor godblast, amped a million fold by Designati, wouldnt be sufficient to take down Surtur.

2. Thor used an amped up Godblast against Galactus he did not budge.

So yeah, there is that, but unrelated.

Point was that there is no real limit to Mjolnir's power and if it will do something unusual, it wouldn't be PIS. Just because someone is doing something first time, it doesn't make it PIS or irrelevant.

So now you have a definition of what PIS is?? And you are going to tell me what to believe and what not to believe.

Void is totally above Molecule Man, but yet , despite being angry, he failed to take down Asgard O_o, when Molecule Man would have just stomped Asgard, specially an Odin less Asgard with a wave of his hand. Very convenient.

It was pretty clearly, Void was supposed to be beyond the level of heroes, but a level of the most powerful cosmic cube being, hogwash.

And he is coming as a horseman of apocalypse.

This is not a new definition. There is nothing else to belive, since we have pretty obvious situation: two people fought. One used new power and won. There is no place for PIS.

He didn't fail to take down Asgard. He leveled the place. And it is not in his character to use that power. Plus it was pointed out that Void failed to won this whole battle because he was weakned. Without this weakness he would kill them all and we know it already.

I belive that only Sentry will comeback

#15 Posted by Killemall (18771 posts) - - Show Bio

It is always easier, since we can call PIS every possible battle in that way.

Because there are a lot of other battle, where a guy, whose arguably multiversal level, at the very least significanty beyond being who can hold and crush an entire universe in their hand, gets beaten by Sentry?

1.Which means that this can be a reason why he - according to You - was weakned. I can't say if he was or if it really makes him weaker. IDK. But it wouldn't PIS if he was.

2.IIRC MM without acces to his powers have durability of normal human.

3.No, he isn't according to their battle. It is not a fact, it is Your opinion, that You fail to prove. Only fact that we have about it is that Void won the battle with MM.

4.Yes, but it always has to be proved that something is PIS. You can't say: "It was Bendis, so it doesn't count".

1. That would be one possible explanation, included with the fact that he wanted to die in the issue.

2. Yeah his durability depends on whether he uses his powers or not, thats one reason i pointed he was distracted before Void got an upper hand.

3. Molecule Man IS vastly more powerful than Void, ignore all his feats you want, or Void total lack of feat. But yeah that i dont agree.

4. And what do you think the whole barricade of scans were for. You can continue to disagree, i frankly dont care, i know for a fact that once shown all these scans, MOST people in comicvine would agree coz it makes sense. And it fits the writers history.

According to narration Rider belive that Hulk is innocent.

No.

As it reads

Reed: "He's (Zarathos controlled Ghost Rider) leaving"

Dr. Strange: "Yes as I expected him to"

Reed: "But Why?"

Dr. Strange: "The reason is simple as it is grave. The Ghost Rider avengers only the innocent , which we all of us are not/"


Its pretty clear the comics is trying to say, Illumanti were not innocent because they shot Hulk in space.

Point was that there is no real limit to Mjolnir's power and if it will do something unusual, it wouldn't be PIS. Just because someone is doing something first time, it doesn't make it PIS or irrelevant.

God blast is when Thor uses "his" godly essence from within him, and channels it thru mjolnir to a target. Mjolnir might not have a limit to the amount of energy it can absorb and redirect, the godly essence within Thor however will definitely have a limit.

Also i never even once called it PIS.

I would however have called in PIS, if the Dark God, both of them together, admitted Thor was more powerful. Or if Thor without context, fought someone as powerful as Surtur and won.

For example Glory, if Thor had beaten him without context, and going by what the writer said "Glory is the collection of entire pantheon within him , as such more powerful than any single godhead" i would call it PIS. He didnt, he just redirected his own energy back to him, and used his connection with the God to help him overcome Glory.

This is not a new definition. There is nothing else to belive, since we have pretty obvious situation: two people fought. One used new power and won. There is no place for PIS.

He didn't fail to take down Asgard. He leveled the place. And it is not in his character to use that power. Plus it was pointed out that Void failed to won this whole battle because he was weakned. Without this weakness he would kill them all and we know it already.

I belive that only Sentry will comeback

There is no such official defination of PIS.

PIS - PLOT induced Stupidity.

When because of Plot (to try and show Void is very powerful) something stupid happens (like Void being able to beat Molecule Man)

So there is plenty of place for it being PIS.

He leveled the place after a long and hard fight, you expect someone as power as molecule man, to destroy a place the size of a small city, with a wave of his hand, specially when he is going all out. Thats not what happened.

Probably will, but marvel is unsure to which they are trying to resurrect after the story arc, because all the character likely wont be resurrected back. I would love to see Sentry back, i am a big fan.

#16 Edited by czarny_samael666 (17186 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

Because there are a lot of other battle, where a guy, whose arguably multiversal level, at the very least significanty beyond being who can hold and crush an entire universe in their hand, gets beaten by Sentry?

1.Since You're such a MM defender, I would like to see a thread in which You would really put him against some multiversal level threat to see who is better. I am not joking, I would really want to see such a debate.

2.There is no reason to limit this to MM or multiversal level. Darwin took down Hela, while he never shown before this level of power.

1. That would be one possible explanation, included with the fact that he wanted to die in the issue.

2. Yeah his durability depends on whether he uses his powers or not, thats one reason i pointed he was distracted before Void got an upper hand.

3. Molecule Man IS vastly more powerful than Void, ignore all his feats you want, or Void total lack of feat. But yeah that i dont agree.

4. And what do you think the whole barricade of scans were for. You can continue to disagree, i frankly dont care, i know for a fact that once shown all these scans, MOST people in comicvine would agree coz it makes sense. And it fits the writers history.

1.Like Sentry whole the time, but until Sentry is showing limits to his energy, limits that he normally doesn't have, Sentry also isn't weakned due to mental state. He was weakned in WWHulk, since he burned out after (low) city level energy projection, while he was able to fight with The Collective and Photon in other occasions. I don't see why we should belive that MM really wanted to die in that certain moment. He was clearly doing everything he can to stop Void. He couldn't touch Void again.

2.But he still could use his powers, he wasn't KOd

3.You don't get it. Void don't need any feats beside this fight. If Void would ever shown limit to his molecule manipulation or if he would really lose battles with more powerfull beings than he is, that aren't based on magic, then You would have a point. But there is no battle - since Void understood what he is doing - in which Void would fail to do something.

4.So now we belive to something, because others belive it? Show me were Void shown any limitations to his power.


Its pretty clear the comics is trying to say, Illumanti were not innocent because they shot Hulk in space.

1.Which isn't right, since they had a reason to do it.

2.Hulk wasn't innocent, so it shouldn't matter. One PS shot would at least show that Zarathos don't let anyone attack him. Anyway, it wasn't the point.

Also i never even once called it PIS.

I never said that. I know You wouldn't, so I used it as an example. As I know that Bendis shouldn't do what he has done, because it is creating another overpowered character. Yet, he did it. Like Milar with Clyde Wyncham.

There is no such official defination of PIS.

I never said there is. I said that I am not making a new one.

When because of Plot (to try and show Void is very powerful) something stupid happens (like Void being able to beat Molecule Man)

So there is plenty of place for it being PIS.

And here we have our clue:

You belive that it is stupid, while it comes from thing that You underrate Void.

When we're making a point about Void's power level, we have to use only his battles from one against MM, since Void to this moment didn't realize what he is really doing.

We also have to remember, that Sentry still don't know it and that Void depends on Sentry. In Siege he barely did, but in this fight he was already weakned so it can't be used against him. A specially that without this weakness he would beat Watcher.

Whole point is: We can be angry on what Fraction did with Odin, what Remender did with Celestials or what Bendis did with Void/Molecule Man. We can say that it was stupid and that it shouldn't happen, but if we can't prove that it couldn't happen, we can't just say that it was PIS.

Probably will, but marvel is unsure to which they are trying to resurrect after the story arc, because all the character likely wont be resurrected back. I would love to see Sentry back, i am a big fan.

Me too. A specially that I'm Bendis hater after what he has done with Sentry in the end. Dark Avengers is my fauvorite series ever, a specially moment in which Bendis is giving us a hint that Void is actually a real Satan or the highest of Angels of Vengeance. But when it all ends and there is still no explanation? No, I was never that dissapointed after reading a comic book or maybe even any book. NEVER.

#17 Posted by Killemall (18771 posts) - - Show Bio

Whole point is: We can be angry on what Fraction did with Odin, what Remender did with Celestials or what Bendis did with Void/Molecule Man. We can say that it was stupid and that it shouldn't happen, but if we can't prove that it couldn't happen, we can't just say that it was PIS.

That pretty much summarises what i have been saying all along.

Thats the whole point, it WAS stupid, done purely for plot, and should have never happened.

Stupid - check

Plot induced - check

Together

Plot Induced Stupidity (PIS)

Thats pretty simple.

Not sure where is the whole thing about "proving it chouldnt happen" coming from.

#18 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4766 posts) - - Show Bio

So round 1 MM obviously wins, round 2 the Plutonian obviously wins, but round 3 any debate?

#19 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17186 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:

Whole point is: We can be angry on what Fraction did with Odin, what Remender did with Celestials or what Bendis did with Void/Molecule Man. We can say that it was stupid and that it shouldn't happen, but if we can't prove that it couldn't happen, we can't just say that it was PIS.

That pretty much summarises what i have been saying all along.

Thats the whole point, it WAS stupid, done purely for plot, and should have never happened.

Stupid - check

Plot induced - check

Together

Plot Induced Stupidity (PIS)

Thats pretty simple.

Not sure where is the whole thing about "proving it chouldnt happen" coming from.

Because PIS would mean that it couldn't happen and that it shouldn't be used as a prove of anything. Void did it and it is a great feat for him that can be used here.

#20 Posted by Killemall (18771 posts) - - Show Bio

So round 1 MM obviously wins, round 2 the Plutonian obviously wins, but round 3 any debate?

Actually majority of people are saying MM all round, there are only like 2 people who think Plutonian would win round 2, and there is going to be no explanation on why.

#21 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4766 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium said:

So round 1 MM obviously wins, round 2 the Plutonian obviously wins, but round 3 any debate?

Actually majority of people are saying MM all round, there are only like 2 people who think Plutonian would win round 2, and there is going to be no explanation on why.

Oh.

Round 2 I feel like Plutonian would win; fully realized he is a reality warper with powers stated to be unlimited in the conventional plane. i.e. Cosmic Cube level, whereas MM is stated to be below Cosmic Cube level.

(also 2 people say MM all rounds, 2 people say Plutonian wins round 2)

#22 Edited by Killemall (18771 posts) - - Show Bio


Because PIS would mean that it couldn't happen and that it shouldn't be used as a prove of anything. Void did it and it is a great feat for him that can be used here.

Again you are talking as if PIS is a pre-defined term and has a hard and fast meaning.

Its not.

It is PIS because it should have never happened, and that feat anyways just stands out of whole Void thing.

Sure you can try and show it as a good feat for Void, but that should NOT in any shape or form, take away the feats from Molecule Man, which once you ignore Void beating MM, drawfs anything Void has done, by at least 1000 order of magnitude.

So i take it next time there is a thread saying Odin vs Void you would say Void stomps? Just curious because feat as well as bio pretty clearly says Kubik is above Skyfathers, and MM is the most powerful cosmic cube being, whom Void just easily beat.

#23 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4766 posts) - - Show Bio

Just out of curiosity, what is the argument between you and czarny about? I don't understand it.

#24 Posted by SHARKBEARAGATOR (1684 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium: They are debating a of the Void in which he defeated Molecule Man. Killemall is saying it is PIS(Plot Induced Stupidity) and Czarny is saying that it is not PIS.

#25 Posted by SHARKBEARAGATOR (1684 posts) - - Show Bio

Also Molecule Man takes this all rounds

#26 Edited by Killemall (18771 posts) - - Show Bio

Just out of curiosity, what is the argument between you and czarny about? I don't understand it.

Thats a totally different argument, Czarny and i are having, about Void vs Molecule Man it has nothing to really do with this thread really.

Oh.

Round 2 I feel like Plutonian would win; fully realized he is a reality warper with powers stated to be unlimited in the conventional plane. i.e. Cosmic Cube level, whereas MM is stated to be below Cosmic Cube level.

(also 2 people say MM all rounds, 2 people say Plutonian wins round 2)


Where exactly are you getting the bolded part from?

Molecule Man is a cosmic cube being, in fact the most powerful Cosmic cube being in existence.

Here LT talks to Eternity about neo-omnipotent cosmic cube beings who are about to interact:

Who is LT talking about? the very next page in the same issue (FF Annual 27)

So MM is just not a cosmic cube being he is

"One of the most powerful being in all creation"

Then he fights with Beyonder , a cosmic cube being , how does it ends, trans-multiversal damange and Beyonder gets owned.

Look at what Kubik (who is cosmic cube created by Aim fully grown) says

Molecule Man : "Do you plan to contest me"

Kubik: "No that would be height of futality. Thor our power is theoritically equal your potential dwarfs my own"

So a cosmic cube being is flat out admitting MM is more powerful, and you are telling me he is weaker than a cosmic cube?

Where exactly did you get that from?

Also Plutonian was theorised to be a reality warper, not something he has done, and not all reality warper automatically are going to be as powerful as cosmic cube beings.

#27 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4766 posts) - - Show Bio

Post-retcon MM is weaker than a Cosmic Cube, yes? That's what the comicvine page states.

#28 Posted by Killemall (18771 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium: Sorry as per count, despite our unrelated argument Czarny as well as Laflux would agree MM would win, in fact lets ask him (@laflux)

The only argument you can make for plutonian is what, Modeus and Kubit thought he would become a reality warper and virtually omnipotent, well Molecule Man just beat a virtually omnipotent Beyonder, and nearly killed another virtually omnipotent Kosmos, and had another virtually omnipotent Kubik agree MM is more powerful simultaneously begging him to fix everything.

I am a MM fan, not going to lie, so even if it was even steven i would pick MM anyday, but it really, really isnt.

Let alone round 1, thats just wayyyyy one sided.

#29 Posted by Killemall (18771 posts) - - Show Bio

Post-retcon MM is weaker than a Cosmic Cube, yes? That's what the comicvine page states.

Then its wrong.

He isnt, he IS an incomplete cosmic cube being, but by virtue of being human, and his humanity, for odd reason makes him more powerful than cosmic cubes, thats pretty clearly shown on panel, i even showed you the scans.

Now its up to you, believe whats in the comics or believe what someone has written in comicvine wiki, your pick.

#30 Edited by czarny_samael666 (17186 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:

Because PIS would mean that it couldn't happen and that it shouldn't be used as a prove of anything. Void did it and it is a great feat for him that can be used here.

Again you are talking as if PIS is a pre-defined term and has a hard and fast meaning.

Its not.

It is PIS because it should have never happened, and that feat anyways just stands out of whole Void thing.

Sure you can try and show it as a good feat for Void, but that should NOT in any shape or form, take away the feats from Molecule Man, which once you ignore Void beating MM, drawfs anything Void has done, by at least 1000 order of magnitude.

So i take it next time there is a thread saying Odin vs Void you would say Void stomps? Just curious because feat as well as bio pretty clearly says Kubik is above Skyfathers, and MM is the most powerful cosmic cube being, whom Void just easily beat.

1.I am not taking anything from MM, I still respect his position. There is other, bigger problem for MM than Void. Fight with Void don't make him weaker or strogner. If something do this, it is Kubik statement that Celestials are more powerfull than Cosmic Cubes. And Galactus is above Celestials. But Galactus nor Celestials aren't above Eternity, while Cosmic Cube seems to be above universal level as well as above Galactus considering Reed's attack on Doom. And currently Odin is shown to be much closer to Galactus than in old days (which would be PIS for me, since he shouldn't be, but since fight with Surtur? I can't decide.).

For me it was always something like this:

I.Eternity

II.Galactus

III.Celestials/Watchers

IV.Skyfathers/Cosmic Cubes

Currently it seems that Odin is in the same level with Celestials. But according to Your scans and opinion, CC are above all people here. And there is other thing - most of these feats are their own statements. While I can belive to Kubik that Celestials are more powerfull then him, I doubt him when he is talking about his own power (as I do about all other characters). In which comic Beyonder fought with MM in Secret Wars (I belive they were talking about second SW)?

2.Against Odin - no, because Odin is magic and Void can't deal with magic. Against Collector, Watcher or Thanos - yes, I am choosing Void.

#31 Posted by uberhikari (2493 posts) - - Show Bio

A fully realized Plutonian is nothing but pure speculation; a fully realized Plutonian doesn't even exist. However, even if we go by the feats of Plutonian's "parents" who brought him to the heat death of the universe in an attempt to kill him, that still wouldn't be enough to contend with Molecule Man. There's no evidence that Plutonian's parents are multiversal or even universal, they barely have any feats, and the true extent of their powers is speculated.

Molecule Man wins every round in a stomp.

#32 Posted by Killemall (18771 posts) - - Show Bio


1.I am not taking anything from MM, I still respect his position. There is other, bigger problem for MM than Void.

What problem?

Cool.

Which is pretty weird considering their feats but its on panel, as well as backed by handbook so lets roll with it.

They are more of less Peers, as in same power level.

If you are talking about Hickman's run of Fantastic Four, it was a Galactus, jacked up on, 4 planets. And Hickman also confirmed the only reason Galactus after being brought back to life manage to beat Celestials one on one was because he was being powered by Franklin Richard, with the power of an entire universe the kid franklin Richard created.

Then Celestials have some insane feats like being the architect of all creation (multiverse) and apparently they broke a huge universe into multiverse with nothing but willpower.

Thats one reason why i find that statement weird, and there are other feats too but lets skip that.

Maybe, and its a huge maybe, cosmic cube themselves are more powerful than cosmic cube beings.

i.e. egg is more powerful than a baby (weird but that is one feat that sort of fits)

Odin likely is pretty close to power of Galactus, but still below. After all Galactus is a force of nature, and marvel has been very consistent about this, force of nature are always shown more powerful than gods.

I.Eternity

II.Galactus

III.Celestials/Watchers

IV.Skyfathers/Cosmic Cubes

The bolded part is out of place, read back on the scan i posted of MM vs Beyonder, a watcher in a different universe was WTF pwned as a side effect of a fight , a Watcher actually went blind because MM and Beyonder fought.

Sort of shows they are likely above the Watchers.

d:

Currently it seems that Odin is in the same level with Celestials. But according to Your scans and opinion, CC are above all people here.

Based on feats, yes, but apparently no..

Not really , cosmic cube beings themselves have feats.

1. Shaper of the World created his own solar system, with his Earth.

2. Kubik did hold Beyonder's entire universe in his hand.

3. Beyonder himself attack Kubik with a bunch of planets and Kubik tanked it without a scratch.

4. We also have Startheif, an alien princess with no super power of her own, tapping into the power of Kubik because of her imagination, managed to teleport entire galaxies out of our universe into a pocket universe, thats still a note worthy feat right?

Fantastic Four Annual 27 (1994)

And its not from Secret Wars, i would never put scans from Secret wars because while thats canon, their power level clearly has been retconned with that explanation that it was all a lie.

2.Against Odin - no, because Odin is magic and Void can't deal with magic. Against Collector, Watcher or Thanos - yes, I am choosing Void.

Fair enough.

Well if he is really on level with molecule man, all of the ones you mentioned are inconsequential, Watchers included, and he would pretty solidly be a match for guys like Celestials and Galactus.

#33 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17186 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

They are more of less Peers, as in same power level.

If you are talking about Hickman's run of Fantastic Four, it was a Galactus, jacked up on, 4 planets. And Hickman also confirmed the only reason Galactus after being brought back to life manage to beat Celestials one on one was because he was being powered by Franklin Richard, with the power of an entire universe the kid franklin Richard created.

Then Celestials have some insane feats like being the architect of all creation (multiverse) and apparently they broke a huge universe into multiverse with nothing but willpower.

1.Galactus put down first Celestial without boost from Franklin.

2.Where has it happen?

Thats one reason why i find that statement weird, and there are other feats too but lets skip that.

Maybe, and its a huge maybe, cosmic cube themselves are more powerful than cosmic cube beings.

i.e. egg is more powerful than a baby (weird but that is one feat that sort of fits)

Hard to belive considering that Cosmic Egg was made out few Cosmic Cubes didn't seem to be above Eternity either, just universal level. I haven't read issues when - for example - Red Skull had CC, but did these people ever made any feats above universal level with them? I doubt it.

Besides it was said that Kubik is above universal level, not these CCs. And he would have to be above Eternity and Celestials.

Personally, I simply don't belive that these fights that had effect in Multiverse, were any different than Odin's fight with Seth. It was also said that their fight is tearing apart fabric of Multiverse:

IMO it is pretty clear, that they can damage fundaments, which could start chain reaction that would threat Multiverse, but their own power isn't Multiversal level.

Because in other way, Odin and Seth were both Multiversal level threats at the moment. But if I am right, Kubik wasn't any different than them and his power is limited to his real feats. And single CC's best feats would still be below Galan.

Odin likely is pretty close to power of Galactus, but still below. After all Galactus is a force of nature, and marvel has been very consistent about this, force of nature are always shown more powerful than gods.

Agree, since I never said that Odin is Galactus level, just that he is closer than 30-40 years ago.

The bolded part is out of place, read back on the scan i posted of MM vs Beyonder, a watcher in a different universe was WTF pwned as a side effect of a fight , a Watcher actually went blind because MM and Beyonder fought.

Sort of shows they are likely above the Watchers.

Yeah, Watchers give me a headache...

Based on feats, yes, but apparently no..

If You're talking about Odin and Celestials, I am still on position that most of them have no feats and there is no real reason to put them above Odin. Arishem - ok,his defensive powers are too much for him. Exitar - for sure, since he is more powerfull than whole host. But all the others.

Not really , cosmic cube beings themselves have feats.

1. Shaper of the World created his own solar system, with his Earth.

We both know that it is not worthy mentioning.

2. Kubik did hold Beyonder's entire universe in his hand.

IIRC, this "universe" was just w dimension created by Beyonder, not real universe.

3. Beyonder himself attack Kubik with a bunch of planets and Kubik tanked it without a scratch.

As the first one - Odin, Celestials and Galactus are all above that.

4. We also have Startheif, an alien princess with no super power of her own, tapping into the power of Kubik because of her imagination, managed to teleport entire galaxies out of our universe into a pocket universe, thats still a note worthy feat right?

This is the best feat of these 4. When has it happen? I really need to read more comics with CCs. Currently I remember only:

Thanos series with Kosmos, Star Lord's attack on Thanos and Magus in GoG, Absorbing Man using it against Mighty and Dark Avengers, FF annual #27, Thanos story in Cap MAr-Vell (I just re-read it, did You know that Chronos of Titan is really a Zeus father and that Mentor is his brother? Was it rectonned somewhere?) story in which SotW and Kubik told MM and Beyoner that they are CCs, current false CC in Avengers Assemble and Cosmic Egg made by Godess (but barely). Plus - if You want to count it - Glorian appearance in Annihilation.

Fantastic Four Annual 27 (1994)

And its not from Secret Wars, i would never put scans from Secret wars because while thats canon, their power level clearly has been retconned with that explanation that it was all a lie.

Wait. I have read that comic, but MM said that they fought in SW. I thought that he was talking about second SW, but I've checked it, MM wasn't even present ther. It is confusing, a specially considering that Beyonder isn't even a CC anymore...

But coming to a point:

It means that MM is above both Beyonder and Kubik. Kubik is above Beyonder, Kosmos is below Kubik. This we can call a fact, since they all fought and we know the results.

But I see no reason to really put Cubes so high, since they don't have that great feats. Best fight-feats are Reed's attack on Doom (debatable considering that it happened in SW) and Thanos imprisoning Chronos.

Well if he is really on level with molecule man, all of the ones you mentioned are inconsequential, Watchers included, and he would pretty solidly be a match for guys like Celestials and Galactus.

If we would consider Kubik as one in their level, yes.

#34 Posted by Killemall (18771 posts) - - Show Bio

1.Galactus put down first Celestial without boost from Franklin.

2.Where has it happen?

1. Galactus knew he was fighting Celestials, or he came to the scene having ate 4 planets in anticipation, thats already a boosted Galactus.

I can site few stuffs that shows Celestial are above Galactus if you are interested.

2. Astonishing X-men 61

Hard to belive considering that Cosmic Egg was made out few Cosmic Cubes didn't seem to be above Eternity either, just universal level. I haven't read issues when - for example - Red Skull had CC, but did these people ever made any feats above universal level with them? I doubt it.

Thats just not correct, it was made pretty clearly that cosmic egg was closer to Infinity Gauntlet than Eternity, and it was because of CCU "self imposted limitation" rather than lack of power.

Not to mention Goddess's plan was to conquer all realitieS (each reality is a universe or a pocket universe)

Thats one reason why Dormammu, who doesnt even live in our universe, saw Goddess as a genuine threat to dark dimension.

Red Skull with CCU no idea, you have to be good at using it.

As per Odin and Seth damaging the multiverse, thats actually false. Read what it says they were damanging the "fabric of the multiverse" and even you admit any damange they cause were going to be as a chain reaction.

Now read the 2 pages of Molecule Man vs Beyonder and tell me you dont see a difference on whats going on.

As a side effect a 2 dimensional universe was made into a 3 dimensional one

A 3000 year old statue begins to cry

In year 3197. so all the way across time into a far future, a small plan acquires superhuman intellect

So the point seem pretty clearly, cosmic cube being power borders on pure reality warping and the fact was pretty clearilying across Space as well as time, on a trans-multiversal scale, as opposed to things happening as a chain reaction.

Thats also totally ignoring statements like this:

So his death itself would cause "havoc unthinkable" across the multiverse.

And given a single CCU did in fact pwn Dr. Doom with Galactus power + a handful of amp, it also re-created a Galactus who was drained and destroyed.

I dont see how Galactus and Odin's feats are better than CCU

If You're talking about Odin and Celestials, I am still on position that most of them have no feats and there is no real reason to put them above Odin. Arishem - ok,his defensive powers are too much for him. Exitar - for sure, since he is more powerfull than whole host. But all the others.

Why only defensive powers, when Arishem's attack was pretty clearly said to be order of magnitude beyond Odin.

So after 3 skyfather merged their powers, Arishem retaliates (without directly attacking them) and his energy blast is said to be

"...immortal gnats at his feat and unleashed his own immeasurably more potent energy through a dimensional rift"

So not only where Skyfathers called "gnats" his energy was "immeasurably more potent" and to think the person narrating the story is Odin own eye that he sacrificed, its pretty clearly Celestial are much above any gods.

Not really , cosmic cube beings themselves have feats.

1. Shaper of the World created his own solar system, with his Earth.

We both know that it is not worthy mentioning.


I dont agree on this like at all. When has Odin ever created an entire solar system with his own powers? When Galactus re-created Zenn-La he had to use nearly all his powers. Odin's best feat in terms of pure creation is recreating Asgard, which is a city size structure.

And please dont tell me he healed all the damange he cause during Seth vs Odin, because i fundamentally disagree the level of damage he caused.

That doesnt change the fact that Beyonder created his own universe, and Shaper created his own solar system.

Cosmic cube in general and cosmic cube beings has some pretty noteworthy feat.

This is the best feat of these 4. When has it happen? I really need to read more comics with CCs. Currently I remember only:

Thanos series with Kosmos, Star Lord's attack on Thanos and Magus in GoG, Absorbing Man using it against Mighty and Dark Avengers, FF annual #27, Thanos story in Cap MAr-Vell (I just re-read it, did You know that Chronos of Titan is really a Zeus father and that Mentor is his brother? Was it rectonned somewhere?) story in which SotW and Kubik told MM and Beyoner that they are CCs, current false CC in Avengers Assemble and Cosmic Egg made by Godess (but barely). Plus - if You want to count it - Glorian appearance in Annihilation.

I am not sure if you can read the scan, because as you know comicvine changeover f**ked up my threads, but i'll still post it/

Defenders Volume 1, 150: Apparently stars in the universe are disappearing 1 after another because the Star Thief who has somehow , because of his desire, manage to tap the power of Kubik is transporting them into a pocket dimension. Kubik sends a living Nebula to earth to call heroes for help, but upon reaching earth she forgets what happened, then later remember and finally star thief is beaten, as Defenders using the cube reach Star theif's mind and calm her, and cube restores the star in their respective place.

Marvel Handbook 1989 vouches the whole instance

And thats because someone was tapping into a portion of his power.

Thanos vs Kosmos was because she was in a human form that made her vulnerable.

Starlord was using a cosmic cube that was nearly empty, and cracked, and still it was said that they were doing to destroy a whole universe, sacrifice the life, and even thanos couldnt survive such damage.

Thanos in that series was beyond powerful, the way he manhandled Lord Marvel..

Wait. I have read that comic, but MM said that they fought in SW. I thought that he was talking about second SW, but I've checked it, MM wasn't even present ther. It is confusing, a specially considering that Beyonder isn't even a CC anymore...

But coming to a point:

It means that MM is above both Beyonder and Kubik. Kubik is above Beyonder, Kosmos is below Kubik. This we can call a fact, since they all fought and we know the results.

But I see no reason to really put Cubes so high, since they don't have that great feats. Best fight-feats are Reed's attack on Doom (debatable considering that it happened in SW) and Thanos imprisoning Chronos.

Yes MM and Beyonder did fight in Secret Wars and Beyonder beat him, this time around, angered, Molecule Man stomps Beyonder.

MM and Beyonder fought in Secret Wars 2, last issue, before Beyonder is killed. He also admits that Beyonder is at the least, a level of infinity beyond him.

Fair enough, Kubik and Kosmos have never fought though, when Kubik says he beat Kosmos it was reference to him beating Beyonder. But she likely was below he was tutoring them.

Doom vs Reed is not from Secret Wars, the story was called The Rise of Doom, i dont know what the actual story is coz i got a TPB version. It has nothing to do with Beyonder really.

If we would consider Kubik as one in their level, yes.

I see no reason why not.

Just a throw-away feat, during Spiderman and Secret Wars (2011) Spiderman with a portion of Beyonder power was able to re-created entire universe within a nanosecond, and this comes after Beyonder retcon as a cosmic cube.

BTW, bios even past Illumati vol 2 address Beyonder was a cosmic cube being, alongside Molecule Man. I dont think the "inhuman" retcon is something marvel has seriously considered.

Also Surtur was hurt when Thor threw a "planetoid" at him, 1 planetoid.

#35 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17186 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

1. Galactus knew he was fighting Celestials, or he came to the scene having ate 4 planets in anticipation, thats already a boosted Galactus.

Which doesn't make him stronger per se, since it just recover his power. As someone said - Galactus is never really in 100%. No that it is an important point, IMO.

2. Astonishing X-men 61

It happened currently, yes? In this new cross?

I've heard it was dumb, now I see why. But, since I can't currenlty prove it is PIS, then it is a fact - ;-P

Seems familiar, :P

Not to mention Goddess's plan was to conquer all realitieS (each reality is a universe or a pocket universe)

But she failed, so I am not convinced to use this feat for CC.

Thats just not correct, it was made pretty clearly that cosmic egg was closer to Infinity Gauntlet than Eternity, and it was because of CCU "self imposted limitation" rather than lack of power.

Hard to judge if scans with Mephisto really prove that it is above Eternity. Both could be near omnipotent (since neither really is).

As per Odin and Seth damaging the multiverse, thats actually false. Read what it says they were damanging the "fabric of the multiverse" and even you admit any damange they cause were going to be as a chain reaction.

Point was that making a damage to multiverse (like examples You mentioned below) doesn't prove that You can destroy whole Multiverse. In the same way like destroying parts of large object doesn't prove that You can destroy whole object.

"...immortal gnats at his feat and unleashed his own immeasurably more potent energy through a dimensional rift"

You're right, I failed to see that. I belive that Yo missed that too before, becasue we had a long debate about Arishem's offensive power and You didn't use it before. This also makes Exitar more powerfull in my eyes than I have seen him before.

I dont agree on this like at all. When has Odin ever created an entire solar system with his own powers? When Galactus re-created Zenn-La he had to use nearly all his powers. Odin's best feat in terms of pure creation is recreating Asgard, which is a city size structure.

Odin recreated quasars during fight with Infinity, which is more impressive than even recreating whole galaxy.

But I agree that recreating a Galactus puts CC above him.

That doesnt change the fact that Beyonder created his own universe

Rather a dimension.

Defenders Volume 1, 150: Apparently stars in the universe are disappearing 1 after another because the Star Thief who has somehow , because of his desire, manage to tap the power of Kubik is transporting them into a pocket dimension. Kubik sends a living Nebula to earth to call heroes for help, but upon reaching earth she forgets what happened, then later remember and finally star thief is beaten, as Defenders using the cube reach Star theif's mind and calm her, and cube restores the star in their respective place.

Hmmm... In first place You've said she was teleporting entire galaxies... We all make mistakes, don't we?

(BTW, I've found D#150 in net, I will read it later, thx for info)

Also Surtur was hurt when Thor threw a "planetoid" at him, 1 planetoid.

It wasn't Thor, but Fandrall and Hogun. But as we both know, hurting isn't a prove of anything.

To sum it all:

Currently I see CC as things with potential to be above Galactus, since they recreated them. But I still have to check out this:

MM and Beyonder fought in Secret Wars 2, last issue, before Beyonder is killed. He also admits that Beyonder is at the least, a level of infinity beyond him.

#36 Posted by New_World_Order (13893 posts) - - Show Bio

MM all three rounds and assuming Molecule Man is not riddled by PIS, in a stomp.

#37 Posted by New_World_Order (13893 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

Also Surtur was hurt when Thor threw a "planetoid" at him, 1 planetoid.

It wasn't Thor, but Fandrall and Hogun. But as we both know, hurting isn't a prove of anything.

When since did they have the strength to do that?

#38 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17186 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:

@killemall:

Also Surtur was hurt when Thor threw a "planetoid" at him, 1 planetoid.

It wasn't Thor, but Fandrall and Hogun. But as we both know, hurting isn't a prove of anything.

When since did they have the strength to do that?

Not by strength. They summoned it magically with their swords or something like that, I am not giving my word for the it happened.

#39 Posted by New_World_Order (13893 posts) - - Show Bio

@thundergodswrath said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

@killemall:

Also Surtur was hurt when Thor threw a "planetoid" at him, 1 planetoid.

It wasn't Thor, but Fandrall and Hogun. But as we both know, hurting isn't a prove of anything.

When since did they have the strength to do that?

Not by strength. They summoned it magically with their swords or something like that, I am not giving my word for the it happened.

Oh.

#40 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17186 posts) - - Show Bio
#41 Posted by New_World_Order (13893 posts) - - Show Bio
#42 Edited by MrMaster (45 posts) - - Show Bio

The Odin/Seth battle is nothing, and I mean Nothing like the Post-Retcon Beyonder/Owen fight.

That scene has been mis-interpreted for some time but it was corrected by several of us who took a good look at it. "They're tearing at the fabric of the Multiverse" does Not mean, they're tearing the actual Multiverse itself apart lol, the "Fabric" of Reality the Multiverse is 'Space-Time' so they were affecting a localized area of Space-Time which is pretty impressive, but this isn't even Universal damage. Had it actually been the Multiverse itself getting touched here far more than "Galaxies" would be "imperiled." (as Strange said) ... Heck, Beyonder/Owen were turing entire UniverseS upside down son, and Distant FutureS were being re-arranged, all this on a BEYOND Multiversal scale! Anyway, so Odin/Seth make war "across Every Plane of Existence" ... wow, reads grand doesn't it, to some this would seem like universeS are involved but, No! They're referring to the Planes of Existence withIN any single Reality:

The Physical, the Sub-Conscious, and Astral (or spiritual) These are different methods of manifestations of oneself. Like when Doc Strange leaves his body, he's still withIN the 616 Universe but existing on a different "Plane" withIn it. Here's an example: When Korvac battle/stomped Starhawk on every Plane of Existence:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15790098/Planes_of_Existence_1.jpg.html ~~~> (copy/paste to search bar)

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15790099/Planes_of_existence_2.jpg.html ~~~> (copy/paste to search bar)

====================================================================

... meh, or Odin himself again ... when he battled Loki:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15790100/Loki.jpg.html ~~~> (copy/paste to search bar)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anywho, in the end, what was the outcome of Odin/Seth's battle: "long Dead Galaxies are shattered" and "dying Suns are re-ignited" ... nice but ... *yawn*

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What was the end result of Beyonder/Owen's fight:

That's the "Time Variance Authority" who's headquaters/station is literally as long as the Omniverse ... their job is to fix TimelineS across the Omniverse!

Well as we can see, because of ol' Beyo and Owie they got their hands full. lol

======================================================

One last note *** .... Cosmic Containment Units > Cube Beings ... both Beyonder and Owen Reece are special though: Owen is a human being with CCU power, and Beyonder was never nurtured properly and thus grew sentience unrestricted unlike his bretheren, this is why Beyonder's power has always been hailed as the great dangerous thing hiding withIN a Kosmos or Maker.

Beyonder's power is that of a CCU, which is why it Remade All Creation, Past/Present/Future, All of Time-Space, 3 times withIN a nano second in 2010.

#43 Edited by MrMaster (45 posts) - - Show Bio

This site needs to remake its upload system when it comes to scans imo.

*edit ... That Sentry lost was incredibly stipulated. From Owen being mentally unstable, to damping his powers post-Beyonder fight, to sub-consciously literally wanting to lose according to the friends he created which were aspects of said conscious, to a beautiful PIS ending, where Owen gets distracted by a fake nuke dropped at him from a plane which gives Sentry enough time to re-form after being obliterated for the Third time and Then finally he's got Owen under control. Laughable, when Sentry himself needs Owen to remake everyone including bringing the Avengers and an entire space fleet back to life from practically nothingness all the while Sentry is holding onto his molecules LOL! ... Sentry also tells Owie he's better at this than he is, wtf? Anyway Bendis at its finest. (uhh, that's sarcasm) So hahaha, Owen can do all that, while subdued, but can't reform like Sentry did? Or rather, to save Bendis some face, Owen wanted to be left alone like he stated many times, and in the end, just stayed away willingly.

That makes a bit of more sense.

#44 Posted by laflux (21432 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrmaster: So, old friend, is this a temporary visit to Comicvine or the start of an extended stay?

@killemall look who I found :D

#45 Posted by SlimJ87D (11921 posts) - - Show Bio

Molecule Man.

#46 Posted by Superbot400 (427 posts) - - Show Bio

Molecule Man should win everything single one of these matches.

Even when he post-retconned, he could do crazy shit with his powers.

#47 Edited by Killemall (18771 posts) - - Show Bio

Which doesn't make him stronger per se, since it just recover his power. As someone said - Galactus is never really in 100%. No that it is an important point, IMO.

This would be true if we were talking about "theoritical" potential within Galactus, of course theoritically speaking he would be just as powerful as a bonafied abstracts.

What we are talking is the normal power level Galactus appears on comics, with his normal diet, after having ate 1 planet.

The Galactus we see, a normally fed Galactus, is just a peer to Celestial, while there are few accounts that actually hits at Celestials actually being more powerful than normally fed Galactus, thats a different matter.

Galactus always get more powerful based on how much he consumes, 4 planets is significantly more than what he normally consumes to be fed, i.e. at level beyond what he normally appears in comics.

It happened currently, yes? In this new cross?

I've heard it was dumb, now I see why. But, since I can't currenlty prove it is PIS, then it is a fact - ;-P

Seems familiar, :P

Point wasnt whether they are geneuniely powerful enough to perform multiversal feat, the point was their power level changes, quite rapidly and drastically based on who is writing. We have 3 skyfather, with their full army, after a 1000 years of prep being absolutely helpless against Celestial and we also have a very recent comics, where someone with Thor's old axe manage to kill a Celestial rather easily.

Celestials power level hasnt been constant and its a very bad benchmark.

But she failed, so I am not convinced to use this feat for CC.

Do you remember where out conversation started in regards to Goddess?

Lets quote you:

Czarny: "Hard to belive considering that Cosmic Egg was made out few Cosmic Cubes didn't seem to be above Eternity either, just universal level."

In reply i said, well she was going to control either multiverse or possibly the omniverse with the cosmic egg, therefore there is nothing to suggest it was just universal level, it wasnt really utilized, its not like anyone actually manage to over-power the cosmic egg, after all it was the power of cosmic egg used against Goddess to beat her.

Hard to judge if scans with Mephisto really prove that it is above Eternity. Both could be near omnipotent (since neither really is).

I never said they were above Eternity, i said they were above skyfathers and quite possibly up there just as powerful as Galactus or even likely above. Eternity while is a sentinent universe, his power is anything BUT universal, just like Ego himself is a planet but his power is significantly above planetary level. ;)

Point was that making a damage to multiverse (like examples You mentioned below) doesn't prove that You can destroy whole Multiverse. In the same way like destroying parts of large object doesn't prove that You can destroy whole object.

Firstly i did not say cosmic cube was powerful enough to destroy the whole multiversal, i said their power was "multiversal", i.e. capable of affecting entire multiverse and they in their fight manage to affect MORE than multiverse, and it was also stated that had Kubik fought Super Adaptoid with Kubik's own power they would have similar damage.

Secondly my point was there is a HUGE difference between Odin vs Seth as compared to Molecule Man vs Beyonder.

Odin and Seth only managed to damage the "fabric" of the multiverse, any damange above that would have to be because of a chain reaction. Their fight manage to endanger distance galaxies not even an entire universe.

In contrast, Molecule Man vs Beyonder, caused , clear damange beyond the bounds of universe they were fight, both in terms of space and time. Space outside their universe was affected, time outside their current time line was affects. The effect wasnt limited to the fabric of the multiverse. They actions were actively "warping" reality beyond the bounds of universe, in fact beyond the bounds of conventional multiverse, hence its a LOT more impressive than what Odin and Seth managed to pull.

Odin recreated quasars during fight with Infinity, which is more impressive than even recreating whole galaxy.

But I agree that recreating a Galactus puts CC above him.

Again you are talking about fixing and re-creating, i am talking about making someone new out of absolutely nothing, the latter in marvel has consistently shown to be harder. In fact, a clone of Adam Warlock managed to repair an entire city, while Adam Warlock cant create a new city out of nothing can he? See the difference.

A fed Galactus had to use a whole lot of his power just to re-create Zen-La

Thats the amount of energy Galactus used to create one planet, while Kubik actually created entire solar system.

And that not including how Shaper was stated to transact on a "transfinite level of existence" thats beyond infinite, beyond normal omnipotence, like Odin.

So cosmic cubes, in all honestly, going by on panel feats, statement and bio, are a level of infinity beyond Skyfathers.

They however are not as powerful as Eternity.

Rather a dimension.

Its pretty clearly called a "universe" on panel, so why put a subjective term to it like dimension which could mean universe or a pocket universe.

Dr. Doom calls it a universe on panel:

Based on what Johnny Storm said it was likely identical to 616

Both Beyonder and Kubik called it a universe.

I really see no reason to believe it anything less than a universe.

Hmmm... In first place You've said she was teleporting entire galaxies... We all make mistakes, don't we?

(BTW, I've found D#150 in net, I will read it later, thx for info)

While i have to admit i got that wrong, she was only teleporting starts at the time, but her power was progressively increasing and that her power had reached Galaxy level, in fact in few minutes she would have made the entire universe dark.

Then its again said here:

".... the entire universe would soon be dark"

And Kubik , in order to save this, send a Nebula on panel earth.

While Nebulas can at times be bigger than entire Galaxy this one wasnt but i think its still a pretty impressive feat:

A sentiment nebula, whose original size was about hundred times the size of out solar system, was sent in a human from on Earth, by Kubik, after a good portion of his power was stolen by Star-theif, impressive wouldnt you say?

@laflux said:

@mrmaster: So, old friend, is this a temporary visit to Comicvine or the start of an extended stay?

@killemall look who I found :D

Its nice to see Mr.Master back, someone told me he was out for exams, and i also realised he hadnt posted on KMC for about a month, so yeah welcome back Mr.Master and glad to see we are of the same view, although i think i interpret Odin vs Seth feat a little more impressive than what Mr. Master is doing, i still strongely maintain, MM vs Beyonder's feat was vastly superior.

Although a quick question, to Mr. Master, what statement are you saying to suggest Beyonder was any better than other cosmic cube beings? Kubik and Shaper seem to see each other as peers, and Kubik rather handily beat Beyonder when they fought for the first time. I dont see anything to suggest Beyonder > than Kubik.

And Spiderman and Secret Wars is an all age comics, referring to past event, notice how we have Molecule Man there after his death, i dont think its canon to 616 and even if it was it wasnt the portrayal of Beyonder at comic cube level but rather his orginal power level, as indicated by another bio Blockbusters of Marvel Universe.

#48 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17186 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

Hey, please send me PM about this threads (http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/annihilators-vs-powerhouses-1458296/#28) so I will be able to answer You later. I currently don't have a time to read this, but it is very intresting for me, considering my lack of knowledge in this area. I know I shouldn't have open PMs, but I forgot that I answered to You yesterday.

#49 Posted by TDK_1997 (16117 posts) - - Show Bio

Molecule Man in all three rounds.