#1 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

Scenario: Kit Fisto and Plo Koon are sent to investagate sightings of dark figures on Naboo. As they reach theed, they are confronted by 2 sith. It then erupts in Battle.

No prep, random encounter.

Morals off, bloodlust off.

Battle ends in death.

Who wins?

#2 Posted by Drache64 (339 posts) - - Show Bio

I researched Tenebrous and the entries seemed pretty vague.  I'm curious why you chose him in this fight as he seemed to be short lived and didn't accomplish mush besides almost destroying the sith by plotting to kill his apprentice and leave them both dead. at any rate I would give this fight to the Sith mainly due to Vader, though I expect vader to kill tenebrous when the fight is over... or maybe when it's mostly in his favour. Kit is the second strongest here but he has a hard time in one on one battles as seen in his fight with asaji ventress. Kit also liked to find weak spots in his opponents guard and exploit them but Vader is accustomed to leaving himself vulnerable just to them strike a killing blow. mostly due to the cartosis in his armor and his robotic apendages. 
 
to sum up: sith win... then vader wins.

#3 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

@Drache64 said:

I researched Tenebrous and the entries seemed pretty vague. I'm curious why you chose him in this fight as he seemed to be short lived and didn't accomplish mush besides almost destroying the sith by plotting to kill his apprentice and leave them both dead. at any rate I would give this fight to the Sith mainly due to Vader, though I expect vader to kill tenebrous when the fight is over... or maybe when it's mostly in his favour. Kit is the second strongest here but he has a hard time in one on one battles as seen in his fight with asaji ventress. Kit also liked to find weak spots in his opponents guard and exploit them but Vader is accustomed to leaving himself vulnerable just to them strike a killing blow. mostly due to the cartosis in his armor and his robotic apendages. to sum up: sith win... then vader wins.

I thought this would be a good battle.

#4 Posted by Drache64 (339 posts) - - Show Bio

dont get me wrong. it is a good fight. and i could see why people would think its close when you see kit fisto in action, he's awesome... and smiley. but when you examine the meat and potatoes, vader has this.

#5 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

#6 Posted by sithlord_1 (10 posts) - - Show Bio

tbh this would be the likely outcome... vader lines up with tenebrous then kills him and then goes on to own kit fisto and plo koon on his own

#7 Posted by shroudofsorrow (3217 posts) - - Show Bio

Since Tenebrous has since been confirmed to be powerful in his own right I'd say either Sith can solo. Together they definitely win.

#8 Edited by Silver2467 (16387 posts) - - Show Bio

No one is soloing, and I hope the drivel about Vader killing off Tenebrous before fighting the other two needs no thorough refutation. 
 
The Sith win just about every time. Vader is more skilled than either on the Jedi team, especially Plo, and he and Tenebrous both are more powerful than either of them are as well.

#9 Posted by ImBoredLetsDebate (561 posts) - - Show Bio

Can't quote in this browser (ie ftw), but "Post by Silver2467 No one is soloing, and I hope the drivel about Vader killing off Tenebrous before fighting the other two needs no thorough refutation. The Sith win just about every time. Vader is more skilled than either on the Jedi team, especially Plo, and he and Tenebrous both are more powerful than either of them are as well. " If by "no one is soloing" you mean no one is soloing because it is 2v2, then you would be correct. However, if you mean no one is soloing as in Darth Vader could not kill, and pretty easily, Plo and Kit 2v1, then you would be wrong imo.

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#10 Posted by zackattack529 (1404 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 has the better team. There dynamic in combat would obviously be better and well thought out strategies.

Team 2 sucks but they have darth vader and when Vader is on his A-Game he is BeastMode. and the extra sith will likely cause many problems. Even if he is a weaker sith than Vader a Sith requires strong amounts of force energy. and there light saber fighting style is better. but that is not the case here. since Vader doesn't use they typical Sith fighting style he much rather prefers using his Over powered force abilities.

Hmm...IM still going to say team 1. All Jedi usually work in team they have the experience to take down a sith. Darth Vader is going to be so difficult either Plo koon or Fisto might die in the process. But ..yaa Team 1 FTW.

#11 Posted by Silver2467 (16387 posts) - - Show Bio
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
However, if you mean no one is soloing as in Darth Vader could not kill, and pretty easily, Plo and Kit 2v1, then you would be wrong imo.
I suggest you actually read material about Fisto and Koon before passing judgment on the outcome. Vader is not beating both at once. 
 
@zackattack529 said:

Team 1 has the better team. There dynamic in combat would obviously be better and well thought out strategies.

Team 2 sucks

Nonsense. Tenebrous can analyze and outmatch any strategy Team 1 can develop. His calculating intellect far surpasses theirs; he is so analytically astute in fact that he can predict the future by mathematical calculation. Tactical ability is not in Team 1's favor. 
 

and the extra sith will likely cause many problems. Even if he is a weaker sith than Vader a Sith requires strong amounts of force energy.

Tenebrous is not weaker than Vader. If anything, he is more powerful considering his status in the Banite line. His speed feats outstrip Vader's, and Kit's and Koon's for that matter. His overall showings such as creating Force Shields that repelled explosions powerful enough to sunder mines and telekinetically supporting collapsing cave ceilings, both accomplished with only moderate effort, rival Vader's showings with maximum effort. 
 

but that is not the case here. since Vader doesn't use they typical Sith fighting style he much rather prefers using his Over powered force abilities.

Vader is a better fighter than Fisto and especially Plo. Neither one of them have the combat feats to equal Vader's. 
 

they have the experience to take down a sith.

LOL. They do? Neither Fisto nor Koon have ever fought a Sith, except for when Fisto lost against Sidious. What experience exactly do they have in taking down Sith? And how is that even relevant? If Fisto and Koon's bladework and Force abilties are inferior, then they lose. Their experience is inconsequential, especially when considering the fact that Vader has far more experience fighting Jedi. 
 
Sith team still wins.
#12 Posted by zackattack529 (1404 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: You became irrelevant when you said that dumb looking sith was stronger than Vader lmao

and also how do you know that Kit and Plo have never fought a sith? just because they didn't show it in the movies doesn't mean they havn't fought Siths. Siths are they're specialties.

Also in epidsode 3 that was PIS that Sidious so easily killed Fisto. it almost made my head explode. Lucas obviously did that to piss off his fans because its the last movie.

#13 Edited by Silver2467 (16387 posts) - - Show Bio
@zackattack529 said:

@Silver2467: You became irrelevant when you said that dumb looking sith was stronger than Vader lmao

An ad hominem is a lovely way to start a reply. I maintain what I said. Vader is roughly as powerful as Darth Bane, who is the weakest of the Banite Sith. Tenebrous is one of the last Banite Sith Lords. The Banite Sith's power increases with each successive Sith Lord. Down the line, Tenebrous would have far exceeded his predecessors, and his feats exhibit that. In contrast with Vader, Tenebrous has greater speed, superior protective powers, similar telekinetic skill, comparable mastery, prevailing knowledge, and more esoteric powers.
 
Tenebrous runs so quickly that he nearly knocks over Plagueis on his initial dash and gives Plagueis a struggle to maintain pace. Vader's running speed is nil by comparison.

Nearly knocked over by the swiftness of Tenebrous’s departure, Plagueis had to call deeply on the Force merely to keep up. Retracing the inclined path they had taken from the grotto in which their starship waited, they fairly flew up the crystal-studded tunnel they had picked their way through earlier. Plagueis grasped that a powerful explosion was perhaps imminent, but was mystified by his Master’s almost mad dash for the surface. In the past Tenebrous had rarely evinced signs of discomfort, let alone fear; so what danger had he sensed that propelled him with such abandon? And when, in the past, had they fled danger of any sort? Safeguarded by the powers of the dark side, the Sith could hardly fear death when they were allied to it. Plagueis stretched out with his feelings in an attempt to identify the source of Tenebrous’s dread, but the Force was silent.
Ten meters ahead of him, the Bith had ducked under a scabrous outcropping. Haste, however, brought him upright too quickly and his left shoulder glanced off the rough rock, leaving a portion of his suit shredded.
“Master, allow me to lead,” Plagueis said when he reached Tenebrous. He was only slightly more agile than the Bith, but he had better night vision and a keener sense of direction, over and above what the Force imparted.
His pride wounded more than his shoulder, Tenebrous waved off the offer. “Be mindful of your place.” Regaining his balance and composure, he streaked off. But at a fork in the tunnel, he took the wrong turn. “This way, Master,” Plagueis called from the other corridor, but he stopped to surrender the lead.
Closer to the surface the tunnels opened into caverns the size of cathedrals, smoothed and hollowed by rainwater that still surged in certain seasons of Bal’demnic’s long year. In pools of standing water darted various species of blind fish. Overhead, hawk-bats took panicked flight from their roosting places in the stippled ceiling. Natural light in the far distance prompted the two Sith to race for the grotto; but, even so, they were a moment late.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Plagueis recalls that he and Tenebrous had faced an army of Kursid warriors wielding bows and lances. Vader is incapable of fighting an army of warriors exercising nothing but speed and agility and remain unscathed.

The location of the planet known to the Sith as Kursid had been expunged from the Republic records in distant times, and for the past six hundred years had been reserved for use as a place of spectacle. Masters and apprentices of the Bane lineage had visited with enough regularity that a cult had come into being in that part of the world based on the periodic return of the sky visitors. The Sith hadn't bothered to investigate what Kursid's indigenous humanoids thought about the visits—whether in their belief systems the Sith were regarded as the equivalent of deities or demons—since it was unlikely that the primitives had yet so much as named their world. However, visiting as apprentice and—more often than not—as Master, each Sith Lord had remarked on the slow advancement of Kursid's civilization. How, on the early visits, the primitives had defended themselves with wooden war clubs and smooth rocks hurled from slings. Two hundred years later, many of the small settlements had grown to become cities or ceremonial centers built of a crude sort, and magical guardian symbols had been emblazoned on the sloping sides of defensive walls. At some point previous to Darth Tenebrous's visit as an apprentice, replicas of the Sith ships had been constructed in the center of the arid plateau that served as a battleground, and enormous totemic figures—visible only from above—had been outlined by removing tens of thousands of fists-sized volcanic stones that covered the ground. On Plagueis's first visit, some fifty years earlier, the warriors he and Tenebrous had faced had been armed with longbows and metal-tipped lances.
That the Sith had never demanded anything other than battle hadn't kept the primitives from attempting to adopt a policy of appeasement, leaving at the ships' perpetual landing site foodstuffs, sacrificial victims, and works of what they considered art, forged of materials they held precious or sacred. But the Sith had simply ignored the offerings, waiting instead on the stony plain for the primitives to deploy their warriors, as the primitives did now with Plagueis and Sidious waiting. Announcing their arrival with low runs over the city, they had set the ship down and waited for six days, while the mournful calls of breath-driven horns had disturbed the dry silences, and groups of primitives had flocked in to gather on the hillsides that overlooked the battleground.
"Do you recall what Darth Bane said regarding the killing of innocents?" Plagueis had asked.
"Our mission," Sidious paraphrased, "is not to bring death on all those unfit to live. All we do must serve our true purpose—the preservation of our Order and the survival of the Sith. We must work to grow our power, and to accomplish that we will need to interact with individuals of many species across many worlds. Eventually word of our existence will reach the ears of the Jedi."
To refrain from senseless killing, they wielded force pikes rather than lightsabers. Meter-long melee weapons used by the Echani and carried by the Senate Guard, the pikes were equipped with stun-module tips capable of delivering a shock that could overwhelm the nervous systems of most sentients, without causing permanent damage.
"The next few hours will test the limits of your agility, speed, and accuracy," Plagueis said, as several hundred of the biggest, bravest, and most skilled warriors—their bodies daubed in pigments derived from plants, clay, and soil—began to separate themselves from the crowds. "But this is more than some simple exercise in our rise to ultimate power, and therefore servants of the dark side of the Force. Centuries from now, advanced by the Sith, they might confront us with projectile weapons or energy beams. But then we will have evolved, as well, perhaps past the need for this rite, and we will come instead to honor rather than engage them in battle. Through power we gain victory, and through victory our chains are broken. But power is only a means to an end."
To the clamorous beating of drums and the wailing of the onlookers, the warriors brandished their weapons, raised a deafening war cry, and attacked. A nod from Plagueis, and the two Sith sped across the plain to meet them, flying among them like wraiths, evading arrows, gleaming spear tips, and blows from battle-axes, going one against one, two, or three, but felling opponent after opponent with taps from the force pikes, until among the hundreds of jerking, twitching bodies sprawled on the rough ground, only one was left standing. That was when Plagueis tossed aside the stun pike and ignited his crimson blade, and a collective lament rose from the crowds on the hillsides.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Telekinetically, Tenebrous' feats are on a similar level to Vader. Vader's best telekinetic feat is destroying a cathedral, a feat he managed with considerable effort. With no real strain, Tenebrous supports portions of a collapsing cave from crushing his ship.

A few meters away Plagueis, hurled face-first to the ground by the intensity of the vaporizing blast, lifted his head in time to see the underside of the domed ceiling begin to shed enormous slabs of rock. Directly below the plummeting slabs sat their starship.
“Master!” he said, scrambling to his feet with arms lifted in an attempt to hold the rocks in midair.
His own arms still raised in a Force-summoning posture, Tenebrous swung around to bolster Plagueis’s intent. Behind him, the fireball’s final flames surged from the mouth of the tunnel to lick his back and drive him deeper into the grotto.
The cave continued to spasm underfoot, sending shock waves through the crazed ceiling. Cracks spread like a web from the oculus, triggering collapses throughout the grotto. Plagueis heard a rending sound overhead and watched a fissure zigzag its way across the ceiling, sloughing layer after layer of stone as it followed the grotto’s curved wall.
Now, though, it was Tenebrous who was positioned beneath the fall.
And in that instant Plagueis perceived the danger Tenebrous had foreseen earlier: his death.
His death at Plagueis’s hands.
While Tenebrous was preoccupied holding aloft the slabs that threatened to crush the ship, Plagueis quickly reoriented himself, aiming his raised hands at the plummeting slabs above his Master and, with a downward motion of both arms, brought them down so quickly and with so much momentum that Tenebrous was buried almost before he understood what had hit him.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Tenebrous' Force Barrier is more impressive than Vader's. He creates a Force Barrier that repels an explosion powerful enough to destroy a mine and collapse parts of a cave. Vader's Force Shield has only withstood blaster bolts.

Nearly knocked over by the swiftness of Tenebrous’s departure, Plagueis had to call deeply on the Force merely to keep up. Retracing the inclined path they had taken from the grotto in which their starship waited, they fairly flew up the crystal-studded tunnel they had picked their way through earlier. Plagueis grasped that a powerful explosion was perhaps imminent, but was mystified by his Master’s almost mad dash for the surface. In the past Tenebrous had rarely evinced signs of discomfort, let alone fear; so what danger had he sensed that propelled him with such abandon? And when, in the past, had they fled danger of any sort? Safeguarded by the powers of the dark side, the Sith could hardly fear death when they were allied to it. Plagueis stretched out with his feelings in an attempt to identify the source of Tenebrous’s dread, but the Force was silent.
Ten meters ahead of him, the Bith had ducked under a scabrous outcropping. Haste, however, brought him upright too quickly and his left shoulder glanced off the rough rock, leaving a portion of his suit shredded.
“Master, allow me to lead,” Plagueis said when he reached Tenebrous. He was only slightly more agile than the Bith, but he had better night vision and a keener sense of direction, over and above what the Force imparted.
His pride wounded more than his shoulder, Tenebrous waved off the offer. “Be mindful of your place.” Regaining his balance and composure, he streaked off. But at a fork in the tunnel, he took the wrong turn. “This way, Master,” Plagueis called from the other corridor, but he stopped to surrender the lead.
Closer to the surface the tunnels opened into caverns the size of cathedrals, smoothed and hollowed by rainwater that still surged in certain seasons of Bal’demnic’s long year. In pools of standing water darted various species of blind fish. Overhead, hawk-bats took panicked flight from their roosting places in the stippled ceiling. Natural light in the far distance prompted the two Sith to race for the grotto; but, even so, they were a moment late.
The gas explosion caught up with them just as they were entering the light-filled cavity at the top of the escarpment. From deep in the tunnel resounded a squealing electronic wail, and at the same time, almost as if the cave system were gasping for breath, a searing wind tore down from a perforation in the grotto’s arched ceiling through which the ship had entered. A muffled but ground-heaving detonation followed; then a roiling fireball that was the labyrinth’s scorching exhalation. Whirling to the tunnel they had just exited and managing somehow to remain on his feet, Tenebrous conjured a Force shield with his waving arms that met the fireball and contained it, thousands of flaming hawk-bats spiraling within the tumult like windblown embers.
A few meters away Plagueis, hurled face-first to the ground by the intensity of the vaporizing blast, lifted his head in time to see the underside of the domed ceiling begin to shed enormous slabs of rock. Directly below the plummeting slabs sat their starship.
“Master!” he said, scrambling to his feet with arms lifted in an attempt to hold the rocks in midair.
His own arms still raised in a Force-summoning posture, Tenebrous swung around to bolster Plagueis’s intent. Behind him, the fireball’s final flames surged from the mouth of the tunnel to lick his back and drive him deeper into the grotto.
The cave continued to spasm underfoot, sending shock waves through the crazed ceiling. Cracks spread like a web from the oculus, triggering collapses throughout the grotto. Plagueis heard a rending sound overhead and watched a fissure zigzag its way across the ceiling, sloughing layer after layer of stone as it followed the grotto’s curved wall.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis
 
So kindly tell me, how am I wrong about Tenebrous being more powerful than Vader?

and also how do you know that Kit and Plo have never fought a sith? just because they didn't show it in the movies doesn't mean they havn't fought Siths. Siths are they're specialties.

We can add appeal to ignorance to your list of fallacies. Never in any Star Wars media, be it the movies or EU, have Fisto or Koon fought a Sith Lord, save for Revenge of the Sith where Fisto was stomped by one, but you presume "Sith are their specialties"? Your proof is lacking.

Also in epidsode 3 that was PIS that Sidious so easily killed Fisto. it almost made my head explode. Lucas obviously did that to piss off his fans because its the last movie.

And this is a red herring. Your opinion of Lucas' regard for SW fans is inconsequential. There was no PIS about the fight; Sidious is just better than Kit. In fact, he killed Fisto and the other two so quickly that Mace never even saw it happen. What's more, the only reason Fisto lasted longer than Tiin or Kolar (not that he lasted very long to begin with) was because of Shii-Cho. Sidious may only have been brandishing a single blade, but due to the speed disparity between him and Fisto, it would appear to Fisto as if Palpatine was swinging several lightsaber, just as it appeared that way to Anakin when he entered the office. Under the pretense of wielding multiple weapons, Shii-Cho's combative attributes, which are acclimated toward fighting more than enemy or one enemy with more than one weapon, would defend Fisto. And despite that, Kit still lost.

Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary
#14 Posted by zackattack529 (1404 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: 0.0.......not gonna lie, you got some serious debating skills haha.

#15 Posted by ImBoredLetsDebate (561 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
However, if you mean no one is soloing as in Darth Vader could not kill, and pretty easily, Plo and Kit 2v1, then you would be wrong imo.
I suggest you actually read material about Fisto and Koon before passing judgment on the outcome. Vader is not beating both at once.

I've read a decent amount on both. Kit Fisto is one of my favorite characters in SW. Vader might no solo them easily, but he could, and imo, would, solo them. Vader in his prime >>> Plo and Fisto

Vader was able to take on multiple jedi at once, he was able to kill Cin Drallig with relative ease, he killed Dark Woman (although with some difficulty), and multiple other things before he was even in his prime.

I was one of the first people to join the SW:ToR forums if I recall correctly, and virtually all of the time I spent was on SW Discussion where every other thread was a Vs thread. I never saw any feats that Plo or Kisto performed that would put either one of them anywhere near Vader's skill in lightsaber combat. If you have some I'd like to see/hear about them.

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#16 Edited by Silver2467 (16387 posts) - - Show Bio
@ImBoredLetsDebate said: 

Vader was able to take on multiple jedi at once, he was able to kill Cin Drallig with relative ease, he killed Dark Woman (although with some difficulty), and multiple other things before he was even in his prime.

I know just about all of Vader's combat feats, and no, he would not solo them. Vader fighting several Jedi, such as he did on Kessel and Kashyyyk, was against a group of Jedi of no particular repute. He killed Drallig Pre-Mustafar, and Pre-Mustafar Vader is not translatable to Post-Mustafar Vader. They fight very differently, as exposited on in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader; Vader had to develop a completely new, conglomerate fighting style to adapt to his cybernetics. It is a worthwhile showing but not one that suggests he could beat two Jedi of far eclipsing capability to those Vader defeated before. Beating the Dark Woman is a decent feat, as is beating Roan Shryne, Bol Chatak, Celeste Morne, Sardoth, and fighting evenly with an amped Maul and Luke, among other feats. But none of these portend that he could defeat Fisto and Koon together. The fact that Vader struggles with single Jedi, such as the Dark Woman, Obi-Wan, or Luke, should attest to that. Vader reached the height of his combat skill in RotJ, and Luke, who is only slightly below the level of duelists such as Dooku or Mace Windu, was a perfect equal with him. Fisto is not drastically far behind that fighting status, and Koon only adds to the pressure they could put on Vader.
 

I was one of the first people to join the SW:ToR forums if I recall correctly, and virtually all of the time I spent was on SW Discussion where every other thread was a Vs thread. I never saw any feats that Plo or Kisto performed that would put either one of them anywhere near Vader's skill in lightsaber combat. If you have some I'd like to see/hear about them.

Not really sure why this should matter to me. I was active on the TOR forums as well, and most of my time was also spent in the battle threads. With that said, I know enough about that forum to say that virtually every user on those threads knew nothing about the characters being debated. Barring a select few respectable users, the TOR forum is an extremely poor source of battle-related information.
 
Regarding feats, Fisto has overwhelmed General Grievous in TCW, casually handled two MagnaGuards (although they can be inconsistent, MagnaGuards are viable threats in certain stories, particularly in the Dark Lord trilogy where in Revenge of the Sith, three of them were a challenge to Obi-Wan), and he is one of the best duelists in the Order.
 

Kit's bulging black eyes indicated Palpatine. "They want to take him alive."
The words had scarcely left his mouth when something hit the train with sufficient force to whip everyone from one side of the car to the other, then back again. The Red Guards were just regaining their balance when the roof began to resound with the cadence of heavy, clanging footfalls, advancing from the rear of the train.
"Grievous," Mace grumbled.
Kit glanced at him. "Here we go again."
Hurrying into the vestibule between the two lead cars, they launched themselves to the roof. Three cars distant marched General Grievous and two of his elite droids, their capes snapping behind them in the wind, pulse-tipped batons angled across their barrel chests. Farther back, clamped by animal-like claws to the roof of the train, was the gunboat from which the frightful trio had been released.
Without pausing, Grievous drew two lightsabers from inside his billowing cloak. By the time they were ignited, Mace was already on and all over the cyborg, batting away at the two blades, swinging low at Grievous's artificial legs, thrusting at his skeletal face. The lightsabers thrummed and hissed, meeting one another in bursts of dazzling light. In a corner of Mace's mind he wondered to which Jedi Grievous's blades had belonged. Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long.
Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries. Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. Mace could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing. But he didn't know Vaapad—the technique of dark flirtation in which Mace excelled.
To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light. Resistant to the energy outpourings of a lightsaber, the phrik alloy staffs were potent weapons, but like any weapon they needed to find their target, and Kit simply wasn't allowing that. In moves a Twi'lek dancer might envy, he spun around the guards, claiming a limb from both with each rotation: left legs, right arms, right legs...
The speed of the train saw to the rest, ultimately whisking the droids into the canyon like insects blown from the windscreen of a speeder bike.

--Taken from Labyrinth of Evil

Most of the Jedi are deployed on distant worlds, but Mace manages to assemble a trio of celebrated swordmasters to assist him in arresting Palpatine: Agen Kolar, a Zabrak known among the Jedi to strike first and ask questions later; Saesee Tiin, a solitary Iktotchi who has never chosen a Padawan learner; and Kit Fisto, Nautolan master of Form 1 lightsaber technique, who distinguished himself on Geonosis and Mon Calamari, and who partnered Mace in battling Grievous on Coruscant.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

Mace Windu stood in the darkened comm center of Jedi Command, facing a life-sized holoscan of Yoda, projected from a concealed Wookiee comm center in the heart of a wroshyr tree on Kashyyyk.
"Minutes ago," Mace said, "we received confirmation from Utapau: Kenobi was successful. Grievous is dead."
"Time it is to execute our plan."
"I will personally deliver the news of Grievous's death." Mace flexed his hands. "It will be up to the Chancellor to cede his emergency powers back over to the Senate."
"Forget not the existence of Sidious. Anticipate your action, he may. Masters will be necessary, if the Lord of the Sith you must face."
"I have chosen four of our best. Master Tiin, Master Kolar, and Master Fisto are all here, in the Temple. They are preparing already."
"What about Skywalker? The chosen one."
"Too much of a risk," Mace replied. "I am the fourth."

Shaak Ti felt him coming before she could see him. The infra-and ultrasound-sensitive cavities in the tall, curving montrals to either side of her head gave her a sense analogous to touch: the texture of his approaching footsteps was ragged as old sacking. As he rounded the corner to the landing deck door, his breathing felt like a pile of gravel and his heartbeat was spiking like a Zabrak's head. He didn't look good, either; he was deathly pale, even for a human, and his eyes were raw. 
"Anakin," she said warmly. Perhaps a friendly word was what he needed; she doubted he'd gotten many from Mace Windu. "Thank you for what you have done. The Jedi Order is in your debt—the whole galaxy, as well." 
"Shaak Ti. Get out of my way." 
Shaky as he looked, there was nothing unsteady in his voice: it was deeper than she remembered, more mature, and it carried undertones of authority that she had never heard before. And she was not blind to the fact he had neglected to call her 
Master
She put forth a hand, offering calming energies through the Force. "The Temple is sealed, Anakin. The door is code-locked." 
"And you're in the way of the pad." 
She stepped aside, allowing him to the pad; she had no reason to keep him here against his will. He punched the code hungrily. "If Palpatine retaliates," she said reasonably, "is not your place here, to help with our defense?" 
"I'm the 
chosen one. My place is there." His breathing roughened, and he looked as if he was getting even sicker. "I have to be there. That's the prophecy, isn't it? I have to be there—" 
"Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?"

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
 
For Plo, with a broken arm he stalemated Ventress, a duelist who gives Obi-Wan and Anakin trouble very frequently.
Neither Fisto nor Koon are as skillful as Vader individually, and he would beat either one individually. But he is not beating both at once. Vader has never defeated two Jedi of their caliber simultaneously before. As I said, even one Jedi of their stature, such as Obi-Wan and Luke, can fight closely with Vader. Two would beat him.
#17 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

I have a question, are you saying because Kit Fisto and Plo Koon don't have any feats against a sith, means that they can't win in a fight against a sith?

#18 Edited by ImBoredLetsDebate (561 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

I know just about all of Vader's combat feats, and no, he would not solo them. Vader fighting several Jedi, such as he did on Kessel and Kashyyyk, was against a group of Jedi of no particular repute. He killed Drallig Pre-Mustafar, and Pre-Mustafar Vader is not translatable to Post-Mustafar Vader. They fight very differently, as exposited on in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader; Vader had to develop a completely new, conglomerate fighting style to adapt to his cybernetics. It is a worthwhile showing but not one that suggests he could beat two Jedi of far eclipsing capability to those Vader defeated before. Beating the Dark Woman is a decent feat, as is beating Roan Shryne, Bol Chatak, Celeste Morne, Sardoth, and fighting evenly with an amped Maul and Luke, among other feats. But none of these portend that he could defeat Fisto and Koon together. The fact that Vader struggles with single Jedi, such as the Dark Woman, Obi-Wan, or Luke, should attest to that. Vader reached the height of his combat skill in RotJ, and Luke, who is only slightly below the level of duelists such as Dooku or Mace Windu, was a perfect equal with him. Fisto is not drastically far behind that fighting status, and Koon only adds to the pressure they could put on Vader.

Ignoring the fact that you contradict yourself several times in your post, example being that pre-mustafar isn't translatable into post, but then use his fight against Obi-Wan as evidence about how he struggled which was pre, I will bite because I feel like this will be a good debate. Obviously you have knowledge so I won't go into deep detail about everything. Also, excuse my lack of scans and the such please. You can ignore posting them as well if you would like, I usually google and cross-reference anything questionable in a debate.

No particular repute as in barely known, yes, but several were Jedi masters. To imply that they aren't skilled, even half of that of Plo or Kit with a lightsaber, is stretching. Vader killed 4 even though he fought 7(?), and this was not even at his height of power. You can't say Plo and Kit are "far exclipsing capability to those Vader defeated before" because Cin is, considering who he was, a better duelist than Kit and Plo. Vader struggled with single Jedi when he was still struggling to find a form/master the one he created. Vader is above Dooku's level in RotS, and since he is at the height of his power in RotJ, that would put Luke above Dooku's level and arguably above Mace's level at RotJ.

Post-Mustafar >>>>> Pre-Mustafar in basically every way. And it wasn't "completely new". He took parts of different forms and merged them into one, some of those forms he already had experience in. Fisto is pretty far behind Windu, Luke, and arguably Obi-Wan. His only great feats are against multiple opponents/lightsabers (as you provide with scans(?) below). What feats does Fisto have vs a single opponent? His form gets him wrecked by single opponents as far as I know, as seen with his fight vs Ventress who was able to defeat him, but she wasn't near as powerful as Dooku or anywhere near as good of a duelist as him. Kit's form does not help at all in this instance, and would actually be terrible as Vader could dispose of him rather quickly. Plo uses Djem So which is aggressive and would just play in Vader's hands as well.

Not really sure why this should matter to me. I was active on the TOR forums as well, and most of my time was also spent in the battle threads. With that said, I know enough about that forum to say that virtually every user on those threads knew nothing about the characters being debated. Barring a select few respectable users, the TOR forum is an extremely poor source of battle-related information.

I said that because you told me to read up on them the Kit and Plo. Yes, some/a lot of the threads were, but there were a decent amount that were not; particularly the Vader vs threads since he was/is such an iconic character.

Regarding feats, Fisto has overwhelmed General Grievous in TCW, casually handled two MagnaGuards (although they can be inconsistent, MagnaGuards are viable threats in certain stories, particularly in the Dark Lord trilogy where in Revenge of the Sith, three of them were a challenge to Obi-Wan), and he is one of the best duelists in the Order.

As you state, they are inconsistent, and as I have stated, and as we both know, Fisto's forms allows him to excel vs multiple opponents, but severly lacks vs a single one.

For Plo, with a broken arm he stalemated Ventress, a duelist who gives Obi-Wan and Anakin trouble very frequently.

Yes, this is a good feat. However, Ventress was a master of Makashi, and Plo a master of Djem So. Djem So is very effective against Makashi as it relies on the opponent to be aggressive. Also, Anakin has beaten Ventress in TCW if I recall correctly, and that was far before he was at the height of his power.

Neither Fisto nor Koon are as skillful as Vader individually, and he would beat either one individually. But he is not beating both at once. Vader has never defeated two Jedi of their caliber simultaneously before. As I said, even one Jedi of their stature, such as Obi-Wan and Luke, can fight closely with Vader. Two would beat him.

I think you underestimate Vader or overestimate Kit and Plo...or both. Yes, they both have some feats, but none of them are near equal to what Vader has been able to do, save Fisto defeating Grevious, which, as stated, his form helps him greatly to do. And, again, you use his fight on Mustafar for evidence, but tried to refute mine by saying Pre =/= Post.

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#19 Posted by JamesKM716 (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

@MasterJohn: That's not what he's saying at all. Vader and Tenebrous are two of the most powerful Sith Lords ever. Kit Fisto and Plo Koon are above average Jedi. They can't beat this team.

It's like saying Anakin and Obi-Wan vs Sidious. Anakin and Obi-Wan are powerful Jedi. But Sidious is an entirely level above them.

Fisto and Koon could potentially defeat a Sith. THey could kill many i suspect, such as Darth Talon, or Darth Malgus (potentially), but Tenebrous and Vader are simply a league above most sith.

#20 Edited by Silver2467 (16387 posts) - - Show Bio
@ImBoredLetsDebate said: 

Ignoring the fact that you contradict yourself several times in your post, example being that pre-mustafar isn't translatable into post, but then use his fight against Obi-Wan as evidence about how he struggled which was pre

There are no contradictions in my post. The fight with Obi-Wan I referenced was from ANH, not RotS. That should be obvious given the criteria I was addressing for relevant feats to Vader.
 

No particular repute as in barely known, yes, but several were Jedi masters. To imply that they aren't skilled, even half of that of Plo or Kit with a lightsaber, is stretching.

Based on what? The Jedi Vader fought in Dark Lord were not masters as I recall, except for Shryne, and he fought him one on one. Regarding the Jedi he fought in Purge, the only ones Vader killed who were masters were Koffi Arana and Shadday, and Vader never even beat Koffi or Shadday in a duel. He killed Koffi by telekinetically hurling a cortosis dagger into his chest, and he killed Shadday, again not by virtue of being more proficient with a lightsaber, but by Force pulling her toward himself after she disabled his lightsaber with a cortosis blade and then snapping her neck. Ma'kis was a Knight, and so was Sia-Lan. Those were the only Jedi Vader defeated on Kessel. As I said, none of these characters have anything that approaches Koon or Fisto. 
 

because Cin is, considering who he was, a better duelist than Kit and Plo.

I have seen nothing to suggest that. Drallig's status as a duelist is by reputation, not established or demonstrated fact. Not unless you were hoping to use his position as battlemaster to somehow substantiate his formidability, to which I would respond that if that position equated to titanic fighting abilities, he should be the best or at least second best duelist in the Order, but those titles belong to Yoda and Mace Windu respectively. If you were hoping to cite Dooku's reference to Drallig in Labyrinth, I could just as easily respond by pointing out Maul's high opinion of Plo Koon in Shadow Hunter. And again, that was Pre-Mustafar Vader. 
 

Vader struggled with single Jedi when he was still struggling to find a form/master the one he created. 

Not true. Vader formed and mastered his conglomerate Djem So form within months after the formation of the Empire. His style is similar to Luke's in that its core form is Djem So, but it incorporates disciplines from every style. He had mastered it before he battled Roan Shryne on Kashyyyk. 
 

Vader is above Dooku's level in RotS, and since he is at the height of his power in RotJ, that would put Luke above Dooku's level and arguably above Mace's level at RotJ.

Post-Mustafar Vader was at his height in RotJ. However, Anakin beat Dooku, as you pointed out, because of Djem So's physical dominance over Makashi, which contributed profusely to Anakin's victory. Whether that asserts him as equal or even above Dooku and Mace in raw skill is arguable. But even if it does, as I said, Post-Mustafar Vader is not equitable to Pre-Mustafar Vader. They have different physical capabilities, they fight differently, they operate differently. And, no, Luke was not above Mace or Dooku by RotJ. If he was, he never would have struggled with Flint or Lumiya within a year after RotJ. 
 

Post-Mustafar >>>>> Pre-Mustafar in basically every way. And it wasn't "completely new".

I have seen no feats of power or skill from Post-Mustafar Vader that Anakin had not accomplished preceding it. Vader has destroyed a cathedral; Anakin moved a Conqueror-class dreadnaught. Anakin beat Cin Drallig and Dooku; Vader stalemated Luke and beat Roan Shryne. Tell where this massive disparity exists between them, because I don't see it. 
 

He took parts of different forms and merged them into one, some of those forms he already had experience in.

...Which is still different. Vader had to specifically adjust to the mechanics of his limb movement and grip, which changed his form considerably. Pre-Mustafar, Anakin could be very agile and limber; Post-Mustafar, he could leap long distances but not perform the acrobatic evasions he could before. 
 

Fisto is pretty far behind Windu, Luke, and arguably Obi-Wan.

Not really. 
 

His only great feats are against multiple opponents/lightsabers (as you provide with scans(?) below). What feats does Fisto have vs a single opponent? His form gets him wrecked by single opponents as far as I know, as seen with his fight vs Ventress who was able to defeat him, but she wasn't near as powerful as Dooku or anywhere near as good of a duelist as him.

Fisto lost to Ventress because Makashi is particularly suited to defeat a Shii-Cho practitioner. 
 

Kit's form does not help at all in this instance, and would actually be terrible as Vader could dispose of him rather quickly.

Dispose of him quickly like he didn't dispose of Obi-Wan quickly? Or how he didn't dispose of Luke quickly? 
 

Yes, this is a good feat. However, Ventress was a master of Makashi, and Plo a master of Djem So. Djem So is very effective against Makashi as it relies on the opponent to be aggressive.

Source? What evidence do you have that Koon is a Djem So adept? And how do you know that that even factored into the duel? Djem So does not automatically afford an advantage over a Makashi swordmaster; if it did, Anakin would have beaten Dooku in AotC (after losing his second lightsaber, since he adopted an Ataru fighting technique while fighting with two blades). There needs to be a substantial physical gap between the two swordsmen for that to become an issue, as was the case when Anakin dueled Tyranus in RotS; the amount of impact force he threw at Dooku was made very apparent in the novelization, an impact force that is consistent with his various other speed and strength feats. Koon has no particularly notable strength showings, and the fact that he fought with one arm also works against your theory. Djem So involves usually broad and two-handed blows which are designed to strike with maximum force. Plo fought one handed and was on the defensive in certain points (specifically after he deprived Ventress of one of her blades). How would that alter the duel at all? 
 

I think you underestimate Vader or overestimate Kit and Plo...or both.

You overestimate Vader. If Vader was capable of beating two Jedi of Fisto or Koon's caliber, he would cease to struggle with just one Jedi of their caliber, yet just about every Jedi he faces gives him pause. Why you think he would suddenly grow new skills to beat two is beyond me.