#1 Edited by Sovereign91001 (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

Battle takes place

In the anti matter universe at the planet Qward.

A battle between the Monitors and Anti monitor has swung the monitors way and the entire universe will collapse around you in 12 hours.

Any team who hasn't won their battle in that time will be loose two members for the final round ( those two will have to stay behind to hold your enemy while you escape so they will have to be up to holing your opposition long enough)

The winning team will go into the next round with a yellow or Green power ring for each of it's members ( color of the players choice but one color for whole team ). Sorry but realized not all teams would benefit as much with the fear spectrum.

You get 5 hours of prep before your 12 hours but only basic knowledge of your opponents. You also have little to know awareness of the environment your in.

You have access during that prep to only the things either in this universe or the things could normally be expected to carry. You will have to validate how you are aware of or found out what you plan to use from this universe. Nothing you acquired during the prep of the last round will be with you nor will anything that you took from combatants ( Just want to put this out there this disadvantages me more than anyone else).

The planet is populated

You start at opposite sides of the planet

Temporary BFR allowed ( BFR can not defeat a character each character must be brought back to deal with)

win by standard means Kill, KO, entrap.

All characters are IN CHARACTER

Team Sovereign91001:

Phoenix (Jean Grey, Green)

Superman

Doctor Fate (Kent V. Nelson)

Captain Atom

Icon

Boon: Mind Gem

Team DireDrill

Ultron (Techno-Organic)

Kid Amazo

Bastion (Pre-Death)

Eradicator

Apocalypse

Boon: Destroyer Armor

#2 Posted by Sovereign91001 (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill

Our match is up. Would you like first post?

#4 Edited by Sovereign91001 (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill: Well while your gathering your thoughts I'll go ahead and post my prep.

Five Hour Prep

Okay for prep I'll start by having Jean send out a powerful psychic suggestion over a space of a thousand miles telling all living organisms to evacuate the area, and given her natural range, the phoenix and the mind gem this is all highly probable. The purpose of this is to prevent Bastion from Conscripting any of the populace as Prime Sentinels.

Doctor Fate will converse with the spirit of the previous host of Fate (Hector Hall)

I'll have Captain Atom simulate the rays of the yellow sun, giving Superman the equivalent of a five hour sun dip.

While Atom is supercharging Superman he'll be using his various sense's to get a complete picture of the local topography.

Thanks to Superman, my team will have complete knowledge of the battlefield.

Lastly before the battle starts I'll have Jean 'super-charge' Captain Atom, since his powers are largely based on will she'll help him maintain his maximum willpower for the duration of the battle.

That'll do it for me on prep.

#5 Posted by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

@sovereign91001

Do I need to reintroduce my team or do you have a reasonable understanding of them?

Anyways, I'll start with your team's weaknesses.

First and foremost you chose the Mind Gem which is completely useless against 4 of my team members as they are machines and the one guy it could be used on is a telepath himself. Apocalypse's TP is not going to be able to stop the Mind Gem from working especially in Jean Grey's hands but I had planned for the eventuality that I was going to be facing a telepath more powerful than Apocalypse. I have Kid Amazo on my team and he comes preloaded with all of Wonder Woman's powers, skills, and equipment. This gives me access to Wonder Woman's Lasso of Truth. So Apocalypse will be wrapped up in it constantly thinking that he is of sound mind. Because this is true from the beginning, it will be true so long as he has the Lasso of Truth. The consequences of you somehow overriding it will break reality like it did in the Golden Perfect arc. Essentially anything that is believed about something becomes true. Trust me, you do not want to cross the Lasso of Truth. All in all, your Mind Gem is functionally useless here and as such can be completely disregarded.

Now let's start with my prep.

I have 5 hours this time and a planet full of people to corrupt. First things first, Ultron overrides Kid Amazo, the Eradicator, and Bastion's programming and subsumes them all into his technoorganic form creating one giant amalgam. The Eradicator knows all about Qward because he knows everything that Superman knows. Using this knowledge, Ultron starts assimilating as many of its inhabitants as possible, with an eye towards Weaponeers. Those assimilated will be given Prime Sentinel programming along with Amazo Absorption Cells. Ultron can move as fast as the Flash so thousands should be assimilated in mere moments. I assume that you'll suggest that Phoenix simply takes over their minds but that is immaterial as Prime Sentinel Programming override the hosts body making any mind manipulation useless. Using my new Army, the Weaponeers will start making Yellow Lantern Rings, with Flash Level Speed, they should be able to provide enough for my entire army. Using the other people, they build the towers needed to create the barrier as in Second Coming and start building Master Mold Factories within the barrier. These Master Mold Factories start construction of Sentinels that use Yellow Lantern Power Batteries as energy sources providing my army unlimited charge throughout the battle to come. As the Barrier also links up with the Possible Future where Bastion wins, 170,000 Nimrods start pouring out and receive Power Rings. Apocalypse, as the only soul here, will take command of the Destroyer Armor which will then be given 10 Power Rings and escorted by a number of Prime Sentinels keeping him protected from the effects of the Mind Gem with multiple Lassos of Truth. In addition to that, Ultron will enter the Phantom Zone and find whatever Kryptonians he can. Then he will infect them with Prime Sentinel Technology and the Techno-Organic Virus creating at least 3 Prime Sentinel Kryptonians with Power Rings. They will be sent to the nearest yellow sun for sundipping for 3-4 hours. After prep, I should have at least 170,000 Power Ring Enhanced Nimrods, Several Thousand Prime Sentinel Qwardians, Several Hundred Yellow Lantern Battery Sentinels, 3 Prime Sentinel Kryptonians with Yellow Lantern Rings, an Apocalypse empowered Destroyer Armor, and Ultra-Ultron.

To the battle!

Your heaviest hitter is the Phoenix so Ultra-Ultron will outright speed blitz her using his multiple yellow power rings to deal immense damage with Superman-level blows to weaken her to the point that his Encephalo-Ray can come into play and put her in a coma. Apocalypse will take on Captain Atom using his supreme strength and energy projection to pummel him into exploding. The Destroyer can tank the explosion no problem so he won't even care. Superman will get triple teamed by my Prime Sentinel Zod, Non, and Ursa. He won't stand long against all three pummeling him with Yellow Lantern infused punches. Icon will get shut down by a thousand or so of my Qwardian Prime Sentinels backed up by Power Battery Sentinels. Fate gets speed blitzed by 170,000 Yellow Lantern infused Nimrods whose sole goal is to steal his helmet. They will likely not accomplish their goal but they will keep him busy long enough for Apocalypse to deal with Captain Atom so that he can pummel Kent into submission with his Odin-empowered fists. All in all, my team is much faster than yours thanks to Kid Amazo lending his speed to my entire army. Assuming you put in similar amounts of prep as you did last time, your team can't hope to match mine in numbers, power, and ruthlessness.

Before you question my team's chemistry remember, Ultron will be assuming control of Kid Amazo, the Eradicator, and Bastion so any enmity they may have with one another is moot. Apocalypse and Ultron are both leaders but are willing to work with lesser beings to accomplish their goals. Both generally adopt lesser beings as heralds of sorts like Apocalypse and his Horsemen and Ultron and his Selects. They will both see each other as beneath them but they will work with one another to defeat your team while also working on a means of taking out each other.

You may also question Ultron's ability to use a Yellow Lantern Ring but there are a number of robots in the Sinestro Corps as well as Ranx the Sentient City that have all used Yellow Lantern Rings.

Ultimately my team is too much for your team to handle.

#6 Edited by Sovereign91001 (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill: That's a large post, I'm going to dissect it and try and have a rebuttal up sometime tonight.

#7 Posted by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

We just started so don't rush through it, take your time to do it right.

#8 Posted by oceanmaster21 (7765 posts) - - Show Bio

so debate its gonna be epic dont rush take ur time this is gonna be a very good debate

#9 Posted by Sovereign91001 (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill:

There are a lot of problems with what you just stated:

First and foremost you chose the Mind Gem which is completely useless against 4 of my team members as they are machines and the one guy it could be used on is a telepath himself. Apocalypse's TP is not going to be able to stop the Mind Gem from working especially in Jean Grey's hands but I had planned for the eventuality that I was going to be facing a telepath more powerful than Apocalypse.

Actually you have it backwards, the mind gem and by extension Jean's telepathy will work on four members of your team allow me to prove this point:

The Eradicator has a mind after it reshaped itself in Superman's image, then it went and bonded with a Human being; David Conner with his own identity. The Eradicator most definetly has a mind.

Kid Amazo is mostly Human he has a mind J'onn read it!

Appocolypse has a mind as well and has been defeated by Jean without the Phoenix

The version of Ultron you have (Techno-Organic from Annihilation) is vulnerable to TP; he is in Adam Warlock's body and Adam very much has a brain Jean can manipulate. The only member of your team who isn't vulnerable to psychic manipulation is Bastion as he is completely machine.

I have Kid Amazo on my team and he comes preloaded with all of Wonder Woman's powers, skills, and equipment. This gives me access to Wonder Woman's Lasso of Truth.

Actually this is incorrect: During JLA Classfied 37-41 (Kid Amazo's only apperance) he never once had the lasso or even demonstrated that he could replicate it's powers. In addition the lasso isn't a part of his gear; he may have her skills and powers (he didn't demonstrate them) but he certainly doesn't have her gear or any of the other members of the Justice League's.

So Apocalypse will be wrapped up in it constantly thinking that he is of sound mind. Because this is true from the beginning, it will be true so long as he has the Lasso of Truth. The consequences of you somehow overriding it will break reality like it did in the Golden Perfect arc. Essentially anything that is believed about something becomes true. Trust me, you do not want to cross the Lasso of Truth.

That he can't possibly have the lasso has been established this is irrelvent.

All in all, your Mind Gem is functionally useless here and as such can be completely disregarded.

Not even close, I chose the mind gem for a reason even knowing you were my opponent, there's a reason for that. Also the mind gem enhances TK as well as TP and Jean has very very potent TK

I have 5 hours this time and a planet full of people to corrupt. First things first, Ultron overrides Kid Amazo, the Eradicator, and Bastion's programming and subsumes them all into his technoorganic form creating one giant amalgam.

Before you question my team's chemistry remember, Ultron will be assuming control of Kid Amazo, the Eradicator, and Bastion so any enmity they may have with one another is moot. Apocalypse and Ultron are both leaders but are willing to work with lesser beings to accomplish their goals. Both generally adopt lesser beings as heralds of sorts like Apocalypse and his Horsemen and Ultron and his Selects. They will both see each other as beneath them but they will work with one another to defeat your team while also working on a means of taking out each other.

I placed these too statements together because they play off each other and are relevent together.

I'll start; Bastion is fine he's a robot the other two... not so much. Which is ironic because Bastion is the only one he'd be willing to work with being inorganic.

The Phlanax willingly submitted to Ultron believing he's a god and they had a central intelligence that he managed to infect.

That really has no bearing on The Eradicator and K. Amazo to largely organic beings with individual wills and thinking minds in fact the only way Ultron was able to become techno-organic was to merge with an organic body was a piece of equipment that he doesn't even have present. I'm calling him being unable to interface with either of them completely not to mention since they aren't going willingly I believe their wills and survival insticts will play a large factor in fighting him off. The best he could hope for is an incomplete merging with their cybernetic components.

Also while this is going on Apocalypse isn't going to just stand aside and let someone become more powerful them him Apocalypse has a well established god complex.

Your team has large teamwork issues that imo can't be glossed over.

The Eradicator is largely a superhero; he has been since Death Of Superman...he moddled himself after Superman, the chance's that he'd work with any members of your team are next to zero, in fact given that my team has Superman on it, it's more likely that he'd leave your team and join with mine.

Appocolypse the mutant eugenicsit with a god complex that want's in his own words. "“A race of super-mutants! And I shall lead them to war against the puny infection called—man! So swears Apocalypse!"

Do you think for a second that two beings with god complexes such as Ultron and Appocolypse would work together even for a moment? I don't, likely what will happen is they'll fight for control of the team and regardless of who wins your team loses.

I haven't even gotten to the fact that Bastion would be liable to attack Appocolypse on sight. Given all that; there is no way your team is working as a cohessive unit, in fact given their different agenda's it's likely they'll turn on each other.

The Eradicator knows all about Qward because he knows everything that Superman knows.

Proof of this? To my knowledge he is a Kryptonian artifact, now while it was true that the Eradicator absorbed some of Clark's memories when he mimiced his body, I've seen nothing to indicate he has all of Clark's knowledge or memories.

Using this knowledge, Ultron starts assimilating as many of its inhabitants as possible, with an eye towards Weaponeers.

Nope sorry don't buy it, when did Superman encounter the Weaponers prior to his death? Even assuming what you said about Eradicator's knowledge is true All Eradicator would have of Superman's knowledge would be what he knew prior to his death. So unless you can prove otherwise there is no knowledge of the Weaponeers.

Those assimilated will be given Prime Sentinel programming along with Amazo Absorption Cells.

How are these going to be replicated?

These Master Mold Factories start construction of Sentinels that use Yellow Lantern Power Batteries as energy sources providing my army unlimited charge throughout the battle to come. As the Barrier also links up with the Possible Future where Bastion wins, 170,000 Nimrods start pouring out and receive Power Rings.

It won't do them any good: One, they have zero training with the rings. Two they're automotons, by your own words they have no brain. No brain equals no emotion, no emotion equals no way to manipulate the ring. I still don't think this is even possible but now you have 170,000 inert rings.

Apocalypse, as the only soul here, will take command of the Destroyer Armor which will then be given 10 Power Rings and escorted by a number of Prime Sentinels keeping him protected from the effects of the Mind Gem with multiple Lassos of Truth.

I've already disproven that Kid Amazo has the Lasso.

In addition to that, Ultron will enter the Phantom Zone and find whatever Kryptonians he can. Then he will infect them with Prime Sentinel Technology and the Techno-Organic Virus creating at least 3 Prime Sentinel Kryptonians with Power Rings. They will be sent to the nearest yellow sun for sundipping for 3-4 hours.

Putting aside for a second that I don't believe that Ultron can conscript the Eradicator Do you have any proof that there is a yellow sun anywhere near Qward? Let alone one that would allow them to get to in under an hour, sundip for 4 hours and get back too Qward?

After prep, I should have at least 170,000 Power Ring Enhanced Nimrods, Several Thousand Prime Sentinel Qwardians, Several Hundred Yellow Lantern Battery Sentinels, 3 Prime Sentinel Kryptonians with Yellow Lantern Rings, an Apocalypse empowered Destroyer Armor, and Ultra-Ultron.

As far as I'm concerned pretty much all of this is in dispute.

You may also question Ultron's ability to use a Yellow Lantern Ring but there are a number of robots in the Sinestro Corps as well as Ranx the Sentient City that have all used Yellow Lantern Rings.

Putting aside all of the disputes for a second. Even if Ultron could use a ring he has zero experience or training with a ring and it'll take him for longer than a few hours to show any proficiency with it.

Battle Strategy

Assuming your team hasn't imploded and already taken each other out (which I think is highly likely) Jean will knock them out four of them telepathically with Phoenix and the mind gem behind her that should only take the minimal of effort.

The Destroyer Armor is really a non factor here: Whoever you put in the Destroyer Doctor Fate can easily pull their soul out of the Destroyer or Jean can just telepathically compound them to leave the Destroyer.

The only person she couldn't do this too is ironically the only person who can't use the Destroyer: Bastion, he's a robot and has no soul to control the armor. So you're down to Bastion and whatever Prime Sentinals he was able to procur by himself which shouldn't be many if any (In my prep Jean's already sent out a telepathic imperative to have all life forms within a thousand mile radius to evacuate the area).

Regardless though Fate can open a portal and BFR the whole lot of them or Captain Atom can draw the power out of their cybernetics and de-power them. Or Generate a wide field E.M.P and take them out. Sun-dipped Superman could blitz the crap out of them or Jean could telekinetically pull the cybernetics out of them, with her molecular T.K and the mind gem that wouldn't be a problem.

Superman then uses his heat vision and turns Bastion into slag, or Jean use's cosmic fire and incinerates him (cosmic fire is the Phoenix's purview not Jean's mutation so he has no resistance to this) like Hope did. Captain Atom drains him of his energy, incinerates him or pummels him. Fate can cast a veriety of spells that can take him out. Icon can likewise incinerate or pummel him.

Basically my team has a lot of ways to win this thing.

#10 Posted by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

@sovereign91001: You seem to have a mistake in your post. I am not using the Ultron from when he had taken over Adam Strange's Body. I am using the Ultron from the beginning of Annihilation: Conquest wherein he was using a powerful Phalanx-infused form. I specifically chose this version because not only does it have Ultron's latent technopathic abilities it also comes with the ability to physically assimilate things via the Phalanx. During this time, Ultron had assimilated Xemnu, Shatterax, and Korath the Pursuer which all have organic components but allowed them function independently. This suggests that he has no issue with using lesser beings as pawns just like how Apocalypse has worked with Mr. Sinister for years despite knowing that Sinister is actively working against him and that Sinister is not a mutant. Apocalypse and Ultron will function much like Apocalypse and Sinister because above all else, Apocalypse believes in Survival of the Fittest. Ultron and Apocalypse will no doubt be working to defeat one another, they will do so after defusing the current situation. Apocalypse even worked with the X-men to help defeat Onslaught. What makes you think that a team that includes the Phoenix would not elicit such a reaction from Apocalypse? Lest we forget that Apocalypse raised Stryfe, a clone of the man who continually defeated him only to later be defeated by him. Apocalypse believes firmly in the Survival of the Fittest doctrine and as such has no issue with someone being more powerful than he is especially since he thinks he can acquire that power at some later date. Apocalypse also spent a good amount of his early years talking to an AI named ship without so much as a problem. Likewise, Ultron teamed up with the High Evolutionary to achieve his goals. Ultron even agreed to lose to Kang the Conqueror on just the word of Tony Stark, if that doesn't speak to his ability to work with others then I don't know how to convince you. I have countless examples of Apocalypse and Ultron working with things they deem to be lesser beings without much problem despite those things actively working against them.

I know that both Kid Amazo and the Eradicator are Cyborgs and not pure machines like Amazo or the previous forms of the Eradicator and I chose the Techno-Organic form for this very purpose. They are still machines with organic components that mimic biological life just like Skynet's Terminators or the Matrix's Smith or any other number of Machine-Based Cyborgs. You wouldn't say that the T-800 has a mind would you?

Emotion also does not mean that it has a mind that can be manipulated. Dogs can show fear and yet you never see a telepath reaching into their minds or even sensing them but you do see Animal Empaths doing so while being incapable of reaching into human minds.

When the Phalanx assimilates someone, telepathy ceases working on them.Why do you think that Mantis was so useless against the Phalanx despite them using Assimilated Kree? After they are assimilated, none of their minds will be anything more than lines of code in Ultron's superior form. My strategy is sound, Phalanx assimilation should give me access to all their knowledge, powers, and abilities.

Kid Amazo also has Martian Manhunter's telepathy which means that Martian Manhunter could simply connect to that much like how the Source used Neo as a trojan horse to access Smith. The Eradicator was also reprogrammed by Mr. Majestic which further suggests that while he is outwardly Kryptonian, he is still very much a machine on the inside. Keep in mind that the Eradicator also attempted to merge with Brainiac 13, another AI so I see no problem with the Eradicator merging with Ultron, an AI.

Kid Amazo was made by merging part of Amazo's own body with a Human Ovum. This means that at a minimum Amazo possesses all of Amazo's base abilities which means he can do this:

That is one of his more classic appearances which means even his low end forms were able to manifesting the Lasso and Green Lantern's Ring. Discounting the Dime Store Amazo, Batman PISed to death, all Amazos have included all the powers of the Justice League. Kid Amazo was an idiot when it came to using his powers and only really was designed to take down the Justice League. He didn't manifest many of the powers he should have had since he has only had one appearance. Simply put, if Amazo has the ability to do something, Kid Amazo can do it too.

Eradicator built the Fortress of Solitude and as such has access to all of its data. Superman, much like Batman, documents his adventures for later analysis which means that Eradicator should know about Qward. Even assuming that he does not, the first Qwardian Ultron assimilates will give him all the information needed.

Ultron will replicate the Amazo tech just like Kid Amazo did, through cellular division. This is really not an issue as Kid Amazo had to do it in order to grow into who he is which when combined with Techno-Organics should be child's play for an AI of Ultron's genius since he built Victor Mancha after all.

As I have already indicated, there are a number of Yellow Lanterns who are indeed machines, even the Green Lanterns have them. If I remember correctly there is even a Math Problem that is a Green Lantern. A Math Problem! Given that Cyborg Superman was able to easily use them, I see no issue with Ultron being able to use them especially since he'll have access to the people who made them. Using the Flash's speed, it could also just increase its processing speed giving it more than enough time to train with them.

Eradicator has access to Kryptonian Phantom Zone tech, Ultron can just open a portal to literally any star it knows about and go there. It teleported Superman from Warworld to Earth and pulled Kryptonian tech together to make the Fortress. So Sundipping my Kryptonians should be no problem.

Since my Destroyer will be protected by Lassos of Truth, Fate and Jean won't be touching Apocalypse inside the Destroyer. Also, even if we assume that Kid Amazo and the Eradicator somehow have a soul despite all evidence pointing to the contrary, you are welcome to them as they are just dead weight at this point. You can have their minds too because after Ultron has absorbed them they are of no use. Bastion and Ultron are still both soulless mindless killing machines and as such are immune to both telepathy and soul manipulation.

EMP is going to be useless here as Bastion, his Prime Sentinels, Sentinels, and Nimrods all were able to battle Magneto without him taking them out with an EMP. Bastion's technology actually allows for adaptive defense against most forms of attack as he is designed to counter any and all mutant powers. Remember that Bastion may be specialized to work against mutants but fire resistance is fire resistance. With his adaptive abilities on top of Ultron's already formidable adaptive abilities, none of your guys would really be able to do too terribly much what with Ultron's Adamantium body.

#11 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, this looks really cool but I'll have to get back and think of a good write up :)

#12 Posted by Sovereign91001 (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill:

You seem to have a mistake in your post. I am not using the Ultron from when he had taken over Adam Strange's Body. I am using the Ultron from the beginning of Annihilation: Conquest wherein he was using a powerful Phalanx-infused form. I specifically chose this version because not only does it have Ultron's latent technopathic abilities it also comes with the ability to physically assimilate things via the Phalanx.

You have your version of Ultron listed as techno-organic. The only time in Annihilation he identified himself as such a being was when he took over Warlock's body if memory serves but okay.

Lest we forget that Apocalypse raised Stryfe, a clone of the man who continually defeated him only to later be defeated by him. Apocalypse believes firmly in the Survival of the Fittest doctrine and as such has no issue with someone being more powerful than he is especially since he thinks he can acquire that power at some later date. Apocalypse also spent a good amount of his early years talking to an AI named ship without so much as a problem. Likewise, Ultron teamed up with the High Evolutionary to achieve his goals. Ultron even agreed to lose to Kang the Conqueror on just the word of Tony Stark, if that doesn't speak to his ability to work with others then I don't know how to convince you. I have countless examples of Apocalypse and Ultron working with things they deem to be lesser beings without much problem despite those things actively working against them.

I'm not talking about lesser beings; that was never in dispute what is however is two beings with established God Complex's working together isn't going to happen and there is no way Apocalypse works with someone more powerful them him, like when Loki offered to let him join his alliance of super villians in X-Factor #50 and despite it being in his best interest to do so he refuses and says that he will actively oppose Loki's agenda. Apocalypse submits to no one and expecting him to let Ultron do as he wishes isn't in his character.

I know that both Kid Amazo and the Eradicator are Cyborgs and not pure machines like Amazo or the previous forms of the Eradicator and I chose the Techno-Organic form for this very purpose. They are still machines with organic components that mimic biological life just like Skynet's Terminators or the Matrix's Smith or any other number of Machine-Based Cyborgs. You wouldn't say that the T-800 has a mind would you?

This would be true but I've already shown that Kid Amazo can be read telepathically. The Eradicator is merged with a HUMAN that has his own identity! It's interfaced with Superman and Maxima telepathically as well (I'm getting scans) Perhaps you didn't see my first scan Jean says that as long as it has a mind she can interface with it telepathically. Additionally the mind gem at it's highest level can access all minds in the Universe at the same time, now obviously without the power gem amping it I cant reach all the minds in the universe but I certainly could telepathically interface with Eradicator and K. Amazo.

Kid Amazo also has Martian Manhunter's telepathy which means that Martian Manhunter could simply connect to that much like how the Source used Neo as a trojan horse to access Smith.

He never demonstrated it, he can't use it.

Kid Amazo was made by merging part of Amazo's own body with a Human Ovum. This means that at a minimum Amazo possesses all of Amazo's base abilities which means he can do this:

That is one of his more classic appearances which means even his low end forms were able to manifesting the Lasso and Green Lantern's Ring. Discounting the Dime Store Amazo, Batman PISed to death, all Amazos have included all the powers of the Justice League. Kid Amazo was an idiot when it came to using his powers and only really was designed to take down the Justice League. He didn't manifest many of the powers he should have had since he has only had one appearance. Simply put, if Amazo has the ability to do something, Kid Amazo can do it too.

Nope, sorry I don't buy it. He never demonstrated the abilites your talking about; if he didn't show it; you can't use it. Amazo's showings have zero to do with Kid Amazo's, two different characters, two different showings. He may have the lasso (I don't think he did as it would have been very useful in his battle with the Justice League) but unless he shows it, that's conjecture on your part pure and simple and with no proof, it isn't viable. Now obviously feats aren't the be-all-end-all but you have to be able to prove what you claim and in this case you can't. I know you know your character better than to try that; it's borderline character misrepresentation.

Eradicator has access to Kryptonian Phantom Zone tech, Ultron can just open a portal to literally any star it knows about and go there. It teleported Superman from Warworld to Earth and pulled Kryptonian tech together to make the Fortress. So Sundipping my Kryptonians should be no problem.

Qward is in a different Universe completely a Universe that the Eradicator has never been too; it doesn't know any stars in this Universe. For all we know in this Universe there aren't any yellow stars, still seems unlikely to me.

Since my Destroyer will be protected by Lassos of Truth, Fate and Jean won't be touching Apocalypse inside the Destroyer. Also, even if we assume that Kid Amazo and the Eradicator somehow have a soul despite all evidence pointing to the contrary, you are welcome to them as they are just dead weight at this point. You can have their minds too because after Ultron has absorbed them they are of no use. Bastion and Ultron are still both soulless mindless killing machines and as such are immune to both telepathy and soul manipulation.

There is no lasso for you to use.

EMP is going to be useless here as Bastion, his Prime Sentinels, Sentinels, and Nimrods all were able to battle Magneto without him taking them out with an EMP. Bastion's technology actually allows for adaptive defense against most forms of attack as he is designed to counter any and all mutant powers. Remember that Bastion may be specialized to work against mutants but fire resistance is fire resistance. With his adaptive abilities on top of Ultron's already formidable adaptive abilities, none of your guys would really be able to do too terribly much what with Ultron's Adamantium body.

Not true, my team has two (arguably three) matter manipulators. Jean, Atom and Fate. For example here is what Captain Atom is capable off at a higher level.

I obviously can't use that level of power as it's way above tournament levels however I can go up to Odin's level of power (roughly galactic) Captain Atom can turn your team into feathers or puppies or water vapor or blink them out of exsistence or drain him of his energy or any number of things (Jean amped his willpower during my prep).

Ultimately that doesn't violate any of the power restrictions as there are characters in this tournament (New52 Atom for one) who can do the very same thing. Likewise Jean can manipulate matter at a molecular level and with the mind gem enhancing her TK she can break your team down to their composite atoms, reshape them etc. Bastion's adaptive powers aren't going to be of any help he's already demonstrated he can't adapt to the Phoenix in his battle with Hope.

#13 Posted by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

@sovereign91001: You do realize that the Phalanx list themselves as Techno-Organic too, right? If I wanted Adam Strange Ultron, I would have identified it as such but the only time where he was truly Techno-Organic was when he was using his Phalanx-Infused Form as the Phalanx are techno-organic.

So all that time with the Vastly Superior AI named Ship which created and empowered him Techno-Organic powers did not happen to En Sabah Nur? Remember, someone like Ultron made Apocalypse what he is today. Now given that he worked with Ship FOR CENTURIES, what makes you think that he won't work with Ultron for a couple hours especially since he can offer protection against the Phoenix? Until you can explain how Ship, an AI with Techno-Organics, is different from Ultron, an AI with Techno-Organics, in the eyes of Apocalypse then you should just drop this line of questioning.

David Conner's mind was read, not the Eradicator. Did you see Terminator: Salvation? You know how the main character was a machine with a human brain? You realize that Marcus Wright was a prototype for the T-800 right? What does this all mean? You can reach the human part of a machine without a problem but ultimately it is still a machine which is why Marcus had to physically rip out the parts that Skynet was using to control him. Frank Halloran's mind was read by MMH through MMH's Telepathic backdoor, he admits as much in this scan. Again, as I indicated in my last post, you can have both David Conner and Frank Halloran's minds, I don't need them after I assimilate their tech.

Perhaps Batman will convince you that Kid Amazo can do everything that Amazo can. If Batman's can't do it then I suppose we are at an impasse. So go ahead, try and disprove Batman. As I said, Amazo extracted part of his own body to make Kid Amazo. How does someone with Amazo parts in him not have Amazo's abilities? Machines generally improve when you iterate them not regress which is why Kid Amazo was far more potentially dangerous than Amazo himself. I chose him specifically to get access to his Amazo Tech without having to fight Amazo. As I said, you can have Frank once I am done with him.

I realize that the Anti-matter Universe is a different universe, but so is the Phantom Zone. The Phantom Zone allows me to jump from universe to universe with no real issue so I could easily jump to Earth if I absolutely needed to do so.

Ultron comes preloaded with a matter manipulator to allow him to change his form as need be so you can try and manipulate him but he'll just manipulate it back. Apocalypse is outright immune to Matter Manipulation as he has mental control over all of his molecules. Interestingly enough, Fate will be completely useless against him because only really Chaos Magic has been shown to affect his Ordered consciousness so a Lord of Order is going to be hard pressed to even challenge him. Also, if you are going to be so hardline on what characters can and cannot do, show me them manipulating Adamantium. When you can't show me this, I'll consider this your concession on Kid Amazo.

#14 Posted by Sovereign91001 (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill: Frank Halloran's mind was read by MMH through MMH's Telepathic backdoor, he admits as much in this scan. Again, as I indicated in my last post, you can have both David Conner and Frank Halloran's minds, I don't need them after I assimilate their tech.

Wow... first off he doesn't admit anything of the sort, second you've take that scan completely out of context... how does him saying "If you were Martian we could telepathically bond." prove J'onn got through a telepathic backdoor? Here is what actually happened.

As you can see what really happened is the Justice League faked an argument causing the various personalities of the League that he mimicked bounce back and forth until he had a feedback, overloaded and ultimately self destructed.

So all that time with the Vastly Superior AI named Ship which created and empowered him Techno-Organic powers did not happen to En Sabah Nur? Remember, someone like Ultron made Apocalypse what he is today. Now given that he worked with Ship FOR CENTURIES, what makes you think that he won't work with Ultron for a couple hours especially since he can offer protection against the Phoenix? Until you can explain how Ship, an AI with Techno-Organics, is different from Ultron, an AI with Techno-Organics, in the eyes of Apocalypse then you should just drop this line of questioning.

How is Ultron different from ship? Ultron is trying to manipulate Apocalypse for his own goals and agenda and that is something Apocalypse does not stand for.

Perhaps Batman will convince you that Kid Amazo can do everything that Amazo can. If Batman's can't do it then I suppose we are at an impasse. So go ahead, try and disprove Batman.

Well first you pretty much proved what I've been saying. Batman says that he can and I quote: "Replicate each of the Justice League's individual powers."

Replicate their powers; the lasso is not a power, it's a piece of equipment, like Green Lantern's ring, my Mind Gem or your Destroyer Armor. Not that it really matters as Batman's statement is hyperbole. During his story arc K. Amazo really only manifested: Super speed, Super strength, invulnerability, heat vision, flight and X-ray vision. Here are a couple showings of those abilities.

He showed no usage of gear.

But if you want to continue claiming that he has the lasso even after your own scan disproved it and he was never shown using it then there's not much I can do.

Machines generally improve when you iterate them not regress which is why Kid Amazo was far more potentially dangerous than Amazo himself. I chose him specifically to get access to his Amazo Tech without having to fight Amazo.

If you wanted to use Amazo's showings then you should have picked Amazo. If your character didn't demonstrate a feat,or something in line with it, you can't use it. But you are right machine's do improve; K. Amazo's improvement is that he can mimic the personalities of the Justice League; but that improvement ultimately lead to his destruction so I guess it's debatable how much of an improvement it is.

I realize that the Anti-matter Universe is a different universe, but so is the Phantom Zone. The Phantom Zone allows me to jump from universe to universe with no real issue so I could easily jump to Earth if I absolutely needed to do so.

Now compare that to what you said about the Phantom Zone in your previous thread with joeagentofhand1:

The Phantom Zone runs parallel to our universe and the Mirror Verse has exits in every universe which means that the Mirror Verse has exits in the Phantom Zone. Any attempt at BFRing, even temporarily will just result in my team opening a portal into the Phantom Zone and then opening another portal into reality.

Here is a link showing I didn't alter Diredrill's words in any way.

Now, how can the Phantom Zone open up in a universe it's not even connected with? And why didn't the Eradicator just poof Majestic back to his own Universe when he placed him inside the Zone during the DC/Wildstorm crossover instead of going through all the trouble of placing him in the Zone and bombing the time storm? Now I'm skeptical of not only your ability to find a yellow star but to even recruit Kryptonian's in the first place. Now my understanding is in line with your second statement; basically that the Phantom Zone is basically an extra-dimensional prison. Now if what your claiming is true (that the Phantom Zone can be used to cross between Universe's) please show me a time the Phantom Zone was used as a bridge between Universe's. If you can do so consider this line of questioning dropped.

Also, if you are going to be so hardline on what characters can and cannot do, show me them manipulating Adamantium. When you can't show me this, I'll consider this your concession on Kid Amazo.

So I show scans of Captain Atom creating a Universe (complete with it's own laws of physics) and life on a planet, destroying that universe and a scan stating and showing his control over atoms is only limited by his willpower and imagination and your questioning whether or not he can manipulate a metal?

A metal that has been manipulated by Magneto in the past, who's matter/energy manipulation is limited to certain metals and energy in the E.M spectrum.

The difference in what I stated and what your attempting to do is I went above what I'm stating Atom can do, if he can manipulate the laws of physics, a Universe and the limits of his powers are only constrained by his imagination he can certainly manipulate Adamantium.

Whereas you have used hyperbole, conjecture, character misrepresentation and out of context scans to support your position.

I think I'm done as I don't think there is much more I can say. You can take the last post and we can go to votes.

Closing statement

So just to summerize my argument for those reading:

Ultron

  • Captain Atom with as high a level of molecular manipulation as the tournament rules allow turns Ultron, the lantern's, Kryptonians, anything else you conscripted) into packs of cute puppies, rendering all the technology in the Ultron fusion being inert the process.
  • Alternatively he draws all the energy out of Ultron and he shuts him down.
  • Jean can likewise transmute them into a rock or water vapor or whatever, regardless Ultron won't be able to reform himself as his technology is inert or she can pull apart and scatter their atoms letting them float free

Apocalypse

  • Jean telepathically shuts down Apocalypse and compels his spirit to leave the Destroyer (she has more than enough power to do so even without the Phoenix or the mind gem amping her).
  • Barring my opponent showing what he claimed about Apocalypse being unaffected to all magic except chaos magic, Fate pulls his soul out of the Destroyer.

Realistically I don't think there is a counter available for my opponent and I still have the usage of two to three of my characters:Superman (who has been sundipped), Icon and possibly Fate.

General Disputes

  • As K. Amazo never demonstrated using the lasso or any Justice League member's gear it is imo off the table and I believe I have thoroughly proved this.
  • I don't believe the Phantom Zone can work in this Universe.
  • I believe there was character misrepresentation on the part of my opponent, as well as the usage of out of context scans to support his position. Whether this is intentional or not I don't know and I'm not going to speculate on.

#15 Edited by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

That scan was not taken out of context, you just have a different interpretation of it that is obviously skewed. Why would Kid Amazo's Martian Manhunter personality template suggest that if he were martian they could form a bond if we already know that Martian Manhunter can telepathically read humans? It makes no sense for Martian Manhunter personality template to not know something about Martian Manhunter. Remember, Kid Amazo mimics not only their powers but also their minds.

Are you suggesting that when Batman says that he can mimic every individual power of the Justice League that it somehow is limited to only their physical powers? Is Batman suggesting that he gained only John Stewart's physical stats? So when we talk about Thor for example and how powerful he is we assume that he doesn't have Mjolnir or his Belt? When we talk about Iron Man and how powerful he is, we only discuss him and his extremis upgrade, no armors and no devices? That is ridiculous. Given that part of Amazo's own body went into making Frank, your suggestion that he only has those limited powers when Batman suggests otherwise is nothing short of an overt attempt to misrepresent my character. This is ultimately something that the Voters will have to decide as we have reached an impasse here. To sum things up:

  • Kid Amazo is made from Amazo's Own Body.
  • Amazo has duplicated the Lasso of Truth and Green Lantern Ring.
  • Batman says he has every individual power of the Justice League.

Ship was actively working against Apocalypse because he hated him for using him. Loki wanted to use Apocalypse as some sort of bit player in his overall plan. Ultron wants to join with Apocalypse to achieve their goals which are basically the same.

Maybe you don't remember this but DC Earth is at the Center of the DC Multiverse which means that all of the universes run parallel to one another. The Phantom Zone projector runs parallel to our universe and also to the Anti-Matter Universe. Jumping from one to the other is childsplay as it is. Even if I could not go back into the Positive Matter universe, Anti-Matter Earth is in the exact same place as DC Earth and it has a yellow sun so I could just go there. I don't see what your point in quoting me was because it just proves my point.

You showed Atom creating a universe but did that universe have adamantium? You showed him manipulating the laws of physics when Adamantium already behaves outside the laws of physics as he knows them. Remember, Adamantium functions on a completely different set of physics to what Captain Atom knows. You have yet to show me even the Phoenix doing this. Magneto has only been shown to change Adamantium's shape, he has never disintegrated it. Show me Captain Atom manipulating something that works on a completely different set of physics. Show me Jean manipulating Adamantium, heck she has been killed by an Adamantium-infused Wolverine.

I will have relatively unlimited energy to keep my Ultron's charged because of my Battery Sentinels. Keep in mind that even Anti-Monitor levels of power were unable to kill Cyborg Superman and Ultron is likewise just as unkillable. I doubt that Captain Atom, under the limitations of the tournament is even capable of dispelling Ultron. Also, even if you manage to take out Ultron, I'll just pop out another one from my Bastion-Controlled Future and continue the attack. Add to this the fact that Ultron has Flash's molecular control on top of Ultron's Matter Manipulator and I don't see you touching any of my army with molecule manipulation.

I mispoke in my last post, I was referring to Ultron when it came to Chaos Magic, not Apocalypse. I also accidentally referred to Adam Warlock as Adam Strange. Apocalypse is protected by Lassos of Truth so I don't need him to be immune to Order Magic anyways.

You also have not in anyway told me how your are going to deal with the fact that my team is orders of magnitude faster than your team as Kid Amazo outran the Flash which means he is faster than EVERY person on your team.

To sum up:

  • My Prep gives me access to an entire army of beings with speed and power beyond what you can handle.
  • My team is composed of people who are functionally immune to your Mind Gem rendering it relatively useless.
  • 2 of your team members are relatively useless here.

I assume that from your conclusive post, that you are ready for voting?

#16 Edited by beatboks1 (7001 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice so far.

#17 Posted by Sovereign91001 (4007 posts) - - Show Bio
#18 Posted by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

Good luck to my competitor and let the voting begin!

@beatboks1

#19 Edited by Sovereign91001 (4007 posts) - - Show Bio
#20 Posted by New_World_Order (12573 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm..hard choice.

#21 Edited by oceanmaster21 (7765 posts) - - Show Bio
  
#22 Posted by boschePG (2179 posts) - - Show Bio
  
#23 Posted by beatboks1 (7001 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump, I'll be back in the morning to vote.

#24 Posted by Backflip (2256 posts) - - Show Bio

Backing Sovereign.

#26 Posted by oceanmaster21 (7765 posts) - - Show Bio

@oceanmaster21: well both of u did very well both had fantastic arguments honestly i say its a tie great job guys.

#27 Posted by beatboks1 (7001 posts) - - Show Bio

Sovereign has my vote. Nicely debated both of you.

#28 Posted by beatboks1 (7001 posts) - - Show Bio

Sovereign 2

Diredrill 0

At this stage

More votes people

#29 Posted by Sovereign91001 (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump for votes

#30 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (7218 posts) - - Show Bio
#31 Edited by beatboks1 (7001 posts) - - Show Bio

Sovereign91001 -3

Diredrill -0

#32 Edited by beatboks1 (7001 posts) - - Show Bio

more votes

#33 Posted by boschePG (2179 posts) - - Show Bio

@sovereign91001: @diredrill:

diredrill put together a good battle strategy with his tech characters formin some super Ultron and giving Apocalypse the Destroyer armor. It was a valid strategy. Sovereign posted more scans but scans arent everything and diredrill explained it to a level that was really good. sovereign made his run on how to take out each member individually but not addressing this super Utlron creature, though the yellow rings and the speed of Alpha Sentinels was a little bit of a reach for me. Sovereign kept bringing up how to take the other techs but in this super Ultron mode, I didnt know if Sovereign was saying he could influence the collective parts of this new Ultron creature individually? maybe I missed it, or maybe it wasnt brought up but Im not supposed to imply my own thoughts on the battle. Only the facts presented, so diredrill got alot of credit here. What got me was Sovereign ripping Apocalypse from the Destroyer armor with Fate, in which he posted a scan. Super Ultron wasnt a problem no more to me, Sovereign had just taken out Apocoyer with Fate and Jean. That essentially made it 5 planetary heroes vs 1 super Ultron. In this case, I didnt have to assume anything. The sheer fact of getting it to 5 vs 1 shut down the whole conversation after that.

I voted for Sovereign. ( I dont know if something was going on but you seemed off in this battle compared to previous) Diredrill did go down swinging to the point I dont know if you could defeat this Super Ultron in the time allotted. Sovereign may have won my vote but Diredrill did some serious damage, IMO

#34 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Soverign

#35 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not sure enough about either of the teams to know who was correct in their ideas about things like Ultron and some of the questions about minds and the like, but I was more convinced by diredrill. Plus his team was ridiculously well put together. He gets my vote by pretty pretty much no margin over Sov.