#151 Edited by beatboks1 (8020 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire:

Wally isn't able to do that fast without consequences. It's not mixing Flashes as all he's already been absorbed into the speed force once hence why he was brought back form the "dead" in the lightning saga. When he "died" was when Jay lost his connection to the speed force and was no longer FTL and couldn't speed steal etc. He got it back when Wally returned from the speed force. it is a draw to all Speedsters in the DCU when they go too fast.

@WillPayton:

Alan Scot can only do the soloing Earth thing when out of character and the Starheart takes over. Usually he retains a little will to control the starheart. As such his feats are above a normal GL around I would say Silver Surfer Level. When he is fully possessed by the Starheart because he has allowed his rage out he would be closer to Galactus level. He's been defeated at normal levels by many things well below Odin level, he has also done well against powers close to that level. Again his character portrayal comes in to a lot of that. For example when his wife was taken by Neron to hell he was able to fight all the forces of hell. When his son was consumed by the darkness he sees and reaching his power limits ( which are also pretty damn high) he was able to take him down. Similarly he has shown incredibly driven power levels when his team mates are in danger. Most of these are emotionally driven ergo reducing that control a little. You'd have to be able to argue that fact in context to use those high level feats.

@CadenceV2:

Bare with me this is a bit long

The Dr Strange chosen is current. He is back to SS but he still hasn't exhibited any Classic Strange levels of power. Even at classic levels Strange was no where near a reality warper unless he faced a reality warper of high end. That's the thing in both Marvel and DC that the peak feats of their highest mystics are because they can draw on various power sources to amp themselves ( or so so with plenty of Prep). Strange for example (even in classic levels) was openly admitting in Defenders that Dormammu was vastly superior to him in power. Yet he was able to defeat him in his own series in solo battle. He was only able to do so because he had drawn on the power of the darkworlds ( Dorm's own source of power) to combat him with his own power.

The same sort of thing applies for Dr fate. his only real reality warping feat that I can recall was after he had absorbed his wife to gain not just power from Order AND Chaos but ALSO from the power of the human spirit ( or man). Basically he was drawing power from everything that was to be able to do this. He had to build this power ( and it takes time) that you can really only do in a battle with a mystic because they too are building their power. Other battles of fate have him absorbing or manipulating more mundane powers and energies ( like electricity, atomic power etc). Yet he's lost battles to more mundane powered being because the full level of their power is instantaneous and available from the outset. He of course has powers that are also but they are also his more mundane. Also Sovereign didn't choose a version of fate so by CV rules I will take the most recent ( not current as the New Earth 2 one still has zero feats or even showings). That will mean Kent V which while OK has NONE of those high end feats anywhere near reality warping.

Mordru just like the above too achieves his best feats only through a power up. He is Like Fate he absorbs power from various sources. In order to kill the unkillable (like Lords of Order of Jarred Stephens Fate) he first absorbed the power of others equal to himself or many of such. To defeat Shazam who had powered up ready to fight Spectre, he absorbed the power of the Rock of Eternity itself ( Shazam's own power source). In one battle when he soloed the JSA he had absorbed the power of the starheart from Alan ( he eventually lost because Alan took it back) in the same he was about to "feast on the speed force" from jay until he was interrupted. His one and only universal reality level feat was after he and Glorith absorbed Infinite ,man ( who was the embodiment of everything). At that level he could have ended the universe at will. Also i have chosen 20th Century Mordru, all his peak feats are from his 30th century version who had spent another 10,000 years absorbing energy, taking over sorcerers world and absorbing much of the best mages magic, plus absorbing all magic in the universe ( the only way he was able to solo the LoSH, JLA and JSA combined). 20th Century Mordru in his earliest showings was easily defeated by Amethyst when barely a novice and that was in his place of power.

Since none of the beings they drew power from to achieve those peak feats are in the tourney as they are over the limits, and the versions chosen aren't even the ones that achieved those feats I fail to see how anyone can pull those feats out to use.

@all

Based on the discussion I will only allow Phoenix characters if they are green level and below ( or at least below black and white). If anyone thinks a character with Phoenix chosen is above this let me know ( with proof preferably) and if anyone agrees with you they will be out. I'll be honest the line "equal to god and Satan" concerns me so I'll need to see something for devine Spawn to decide. there have been a few who have questioned Kuurth with gem so I'm also still undecided with that. Starbreaker was said by bane IIRC to be Way over planetary level but does anyone here think he equals Odin??

ANY reality manipulation is out. If a character in here has such and they aren't changed you wont be able to use the feats in the tourney

#152 Posted by beatboks1 (8020 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

Can I use Pre-52 and Post-52 feats for Mister Terrific? Or would that make him too powerful?

Not sure at all why you would want to use NU52 feats fro MT but it's ok with me. personally I found them wanting.

#153 Posted by Esquire (3960 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1 said:

@Esquire said:

Can I use Pre-52 and Post-52 feats for Mister Terrific? Or would that make him too powerful?

Not sure at all why you would want to use NU52 feats fro MT but it's ok with me. personally I found them wanting.

If I'm using a street-leveler in a cosmic tournament I prefer to keep my options open, lol.

#154 Posted by Backflip (2286 posts) - - Show Bio

So what else needs to be sorted?

#155 Edited by Dredeuced (6228 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire:
Wally isn't able to do that fast without consequences. It's not mixing Flashes as all he's already been absorbed into the speed force once hence why he was brought back form the "dead" in the lightning saga. When he "died" was when Jay lost his connection to the speed force and was no longer FTL and couldn't speed steal etc. He got it back when Wally returned from the speed force. it is a draw to all Speedsters in the DCU when they go too fast.

Wait what? Wally used to be limited to light speed or risk getting sucked into the speed force -- it even happened when he was dealing with Kadabra in the 64th century and he ended up falling through time or whatever and when he was up against Kobra and had to take a proverbial bullet for Linda, and had to use the Speed Formula to do it.

Directly after this he comes back(because Wally ain't no chump, screw you speed force), owns Kobra, and is mainlined to the speed force and does not have the light speed limit he used to. Jay even wakes up all shocked in the hospital by Wally's return. This is when he also learned to speed lend, and even lent speed to allow Superman to go FTL in space (before Superman got some subsequent power ups to be able to do it himself). Being absorbed into the speed force is a long gone problem.

Jay loses his connection to the speed force when Wally and Bart dump Superboy off in the speed force and they use it to restrict him or whatever later, but Wally got over the "sucked into the speed force" draw thing ages ago.

edit-- You still get some issues post-Kobra return sequence, but that's with stuff like Savitar who's directly dicking around with Speedsters and the Speed Force and Wally ends up fighting with him in and around or through the speed force or however Waid described it (sorry it's been some years since I read it).

#156 Posted by Sovereign91001 (5842 posts) - - Show Bio

If Dark Phoenix is disallowed then so should Full Phoenix Force Cyclops; when he absorbed Emma's Half of the Phoenix Force he became Dark Phoenix.

Starbreaker is apparently an juiced up Sun-Eater; I know it took Paralax(Hal) to stop a Sun Eater before and according to his CV page; he is easily multi-Galactic level, seems way more powerful than anyone else in this tournament.

I also feel that: H/P Doomsday, Kuurth, Wally West should be disallowed for the various reasons stated thus far.

Online
#157 Posted by New_World_Order (13893 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sovereign91001 said:

If Dark Phoenix is disallowed then so should Full Phoenix Force Cyclops; when he absorbed Emma's Half of the Phoenix Force he became Dark Phoenix.

Starbreaker is apparently an juiced up Sun-Eater; I know it took Paralax(Hal) to stop a Sun Eater before and according to his CV page; he is easily multi-Galactic level, seems way more powerful than anyone else in this tournament.

I also feel that: H/P Doomsday, Kuurth, Wally West should be disallowed for the various reasons stated thus far.

I agree with this.

#158 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@ThunderGodsWrath said:

@Sovereign91001 said:

If Dark Phoenix is disallowed then so should Full Phoenix Force Cyclops; when he absorbed Emma's Half of the Phoenix Force he became Dark Phoenix.

Starbreaker is apparently an juiced up Sun-Eater; I know it took Paralax(Hal) to stop a Sun Eater before and according to his CV page; he is easily multi-Galactic level, seems way more powerful than anyone else in this tournament.

I also feel that: H/P Doomsday, Kuurth, Wally West should be disallowed for the various reasons stated thus far.

I agree with this.

#159 Posted by beatboks1 (8020 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm at work. wont be able to view this discussion till around 7pm ( more likely after) my time ( now 11 am). Looks like we have a consnsus that at least 5 picks are over limits. with still some question marks on two more. those who want to keep those characters need to PM me ( to save giving away their latermdebaing arguments) the peak feats they think apply or context to those they feel might have others questioning them. If it looks like anything above those is used during tourney I'll disallow. Is everyone fine with that? any more problems with characters you'll have 10'hrs to put forward your case

#160 Posted by New_World_Order (13893 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: You should also make sure everyone in this tourny is dedicated. Remember what happen to the street level tournament, right?

#161 Posted by Sovereign91001 (5842 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: Sounds good

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#162 Edited by DireDrill (2483 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: @beatboks1 said:

@Esquire: can he still only copy mutants or wider

This is a common misconception. Mimic's powers work on pretty much everyone and everything. Mimic himself is not a mutant, he is a mutate. He has copied the Hulk, a mutate, feron, a magic user, and his powers overloaded the Super Adaptoid, a machine. Machines, Mutates, Mutants, and Magic Users are all within his ability to copy.

Amazo's primary directive is to destroy the Justice League, when the Atom disbanded the League, his primary directive was completed. He wasn't powerless, his program had just run to its conclusion. Later on Ivo reworked it so that Amazo can copy any abilities he comes across. I am assuming that is using the post Tornado's path Amazo which was soloing the assembled Justice League.

I wish I had been here to enter this.

#163 Posted by Esquire (3960 posts) - - Show Bio

Both Bornstar and Mr_Ingenuity have Dr. Doom.

I'd like discussion of New-52 Captain Atom. I haven't read his New-52 series, but from all accounts he's pretty haxed.

Is Deadman actually able to be beaten/resisted?

Isn't Man Thing a pretty powerful reality warper? Is that legal in this tourney?

#164 Posted by WillPayton (11802 posts) - - Show Bio

@ThunderGodsWrath said:

@beatboks1: You should also make sure everyone in this tourny is dedicated. Remember what happen to the street level tournament, right?

You dont need anyone to be dedicated... whatever that means, but I assume you mean that the person with each team will be around to argue when the battle happens. But, you dont need that, unless the tourney is specifically about who can argue better... which is not that useful. The tourney should just be about what team wins.

So, start the tourney and schedule each battle at specific times. If people can make it to argue, fine. If not, still fine. Put up the battle, people vote on which team wins, and after X time the battle ends and a winner is chosen. Do this for all teams through the tourney, move up the brackets, and eventually you get your winner. Otherwise you might as well not waste the time with this.

Online
#165 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

Both Bornstar and Mr_Ingenuity have Dr. Doom.

I'd like discussion of New-52 Captain Atom. I haven't read his New-52 series, but from all accounts he's pretty haxed.

Is Deadman actually able to be beaten/resisted?

Isn't Man Thing a pretty powerful reality warper? Is that legal in this tourney?

Man Thing Reality Warper? He cannot reality warp on a inch scale.

Are you thinking Swamp Thing?

Man Thing Powers is Regeneration, Burning Touch (needs fear), powerful Empathy, Dimension Hopping Abilities, and Super Strength.

There is Zero Feats of Reality Warping. At least any I know of.

#166 Posted by DireDrill (2483 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton said:

@ThunderGodsWrath said:

@beatboks1: You should also make sure everyone in this tourny is dedicated. Remember what happen to the street level tournament, right?

You dont need anyone to be dedicated... whatever that means, but I assume you mean that the person with each team will be around to argue when the battle happens. But, you dont need that, unless the tourney is specifically about who can argue better... which is not that useful. The tourney should just be about what team wins.

So, start the tourney and schedule each battle at specific times. If people can make it to argue, fine. If not, still fine. Put up the battle, people vote on which team wins, and after X time the battle ends and a winner is chosen. Do this for all teams through the tourney, move up the brackets, and eventually you get your winner. Otherwise you might as well not waste the time with this.

This is an improper way of viewing things. Debate Tourneys should always be about the arguments not the characters.

Now, if someone does drop I have a team ready to go if you want a replacement.

#167 Posted by New_World_Order (13893 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton said:

@ThunderGodsWrath said:

@beatboks1: You should also make sure everyone in this tourny is dedicated. Remember what happen to the street level tournament, right?

You dont need anyone to be dedicated... whatever that means, but I assume you mean that the person with each team will be around to argue when the battle happens. But, you dont need that, unless the tourney is specifically about who can argue better... which is not that useful. The tourney should just be about what team wins.

So, start the tourney and schedule each battle at specific times. If people can make it to argue, fine. If not, still fine. Put up the battle, people vote on which team wins, and after X time the battle ends and a winner is chosen. Do this for all teams through the tourney, move up the brackets, and eventually you get your winner. Otherwise you might as well not waste the time with this.

So your saying if someone doesn't show for the entire tourny they should be allowed? I meant dedicated as in there going to actually show up, and debate, and not toss it to the side. I would know this from personal encounters. If your saying the superior team should win without a debate there is no point for this tourny..

#168 Posted by Esquire (3960 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

Man Thing Reality Warper? He cannot reality warp on a inch scale.

99% sure he was warping reality in Fear Itself. I'll see if I can find the issues.

#169 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@CadenceV2 said:

Man Thing Reality Warper? He cannot reality warp on a inch scale.

99% sure he was warping reality in Fear Itself. I'll see if I can find the issues.

Please do. All my Man Thing is from 80s, 90s, and Hulk as well Midnight Sons and he has Zero Reality Feats.

#170 Posted by New_World_Order (13893 posts) - - Show Bio

When does this start?

#171 Posted by WillPayton (11802 posts) - - Show Bio

@DireDrill said:

@WillPayton said:

@ThunderGodsWrath said:

@beatboks1: You should also make sure everyone in this tourny is dedicated. Remember what happen to the street level tournament, right?

You dont need anyone to be dedicated... whatever that means, but I assume you mean that the person with each team will be around to argue when the battle happens. But, you dont need that, unless the tourney is specifically about who can argue better... which is not that useful. The tourney should just be about what team wins.

So, start the tourney and schedule each battle at specific times. If people can make it to argue, fine. If not, still fine. Put up the battle, people vote on which team wins, and after X time the battle ends and a winner is chosen. Do this for all teams through the tourney, move up the brackets, and eventually you get your winner. Otherwise you might as well not waste the time with this.

This is an improper way of viewing things. Debate Tourneys should always be about the arguments not the characters.

Now, if someone does drop I have a team ready to go if you want a replacement.

It's not improper at all. People who selected teams first got a better pick of characters. Better characters = better feats = easier to argue. So now what, you think that somehow everyone is on equal footing to debate when some teams are inherently better than others? You think everyone is on equal footing when some people have things to do during the day and others can sit at their computer and post on CV 24/7? Well you can think that if you want, but you'll be wrong.

This tournament is about the characters... unless the rules somehow allows the debaters to make up feats as they go along. Yes the persons knowledge of those characters will play a big role, but there's only so much they can do. If a person with a much weaker team loses, does that show they are a bad debater? Not really. It just shows their team is much weaker.

@ThunderGodsWrath said:

So your saying if someone doesn't show for the entire tourny they should be allowed? I meant dedicated as in there going to actually show up, and debate, and not toss it to the side. I would know this from personal encounters. If your saying the superior team should win without a debate there is no point for this tourny..

I'm saying that you cant expect that everyone will be available at all times. People actually have things to do... school, work, other obligations. Expecting that you can set up a tournament like this and it will run smoothly and most people will be able to show up and debate at the same times is a recipe for failure.

What I'm saying needs to be done is to run the tournament as it is, teams vs teams, like normal CV battles. Then let the people know when the battles will occur and they can show up and make their arguments. If someone doesnt show then their team is at a big disadvantage because they're not there to debate and give feats and arguments for them.

Online
#172 Posted by New_World_Order (13893 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton: You do not not get what I mean. I'm not talking about going to work, school, or such, because I am one of those people. There are people who sign up who do not do anything as if they planned this, or were misunderstood on what it was. They forget all about the tourny, and act as if they didn't sign up for anything. But anyways lets just leave it as this.

#173 Posted by beatboks1 (8020 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton said:

@ThunderGodsWrath said:

@beatboks1: You should also make sure everyone in this tourny is dedicated. Remember what happen to the street level tournament, right?

You dont need anyone to be dedicated... whatever that means, but I assume you mean that the person with each team will be around to argue when the battle happens. But, you dont need that, unless the tourney is specifically about who can argue better... which is not that useful. The tourney should just be about what team wins.

So, start the tourney and schedule each battle at specific times. If people can make it to argue, fine. If not, still fine. Put up the battle, people vote on which team wins, and after X time the battle ends and a winner is chosen. Do this for all teams through the tourney, move up the brackets, and eventually you get your winner. Otherwise you might as well not waste the time with this.

Tounaments are all about the debate. just picking a better team wont win if you dont offer a strategy and support it. it is a debating tournament

#174 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1 said:

@WillPayton said:

@ThunderGodsWrath said:

@beatboks1: You should also make sure everyone in this tourny is dedicated. Remember what happen to the street level tournament, right?

You dont need anyone to be dedicated... whatever that means, but I assume you mean that the person with each team will be around to argue when the battle happens. But, you dont need that, unless the tourney is specifically about who can argue better... which is not that useful. The tourney should just be about what team wins.

So, start the tourney and schedule each battle at specific times. If people can make it to argue, fine. If not, still fine. Put up the battle, people vote on which team wins, and after X time the battle ends and a winner is chosen. Do this for all teams through the tourney, move up the brackets, and eventually you get your winner. Otherwise you might as well not waste the time with this.

Tounaments are all about the debate. just picking a better team wont win if you dont offer a strategy and support it. it is a debating tournament

On a side note it really helps to be able to pick characters you know well (popular characters have more fans wanting to pick them) and can debate easier with. It be hard to debate Spider Man vs Thanos for example.

#175 Edited by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: And quit picking on Man Thing. Are you sure he had legitament (Again 70s, 80s, 90s, and Current Man Thing I have) Reality Warping or some one time feat for that overall all terrible FEAR event?

#176 Posted by DireDrill (2483 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

Both Bornstar and Mr_Ingenuity have Dr. Doom.

I'd like discussion of New-52 Captain Atom. I haven't read his New-52 series, but from all accounts he's pretty haxed.

Is Deadman actually able to be beaten/resisted?

Isn't Man Thing a pretty powerful reality warper? Is that legal in this tourney?

I don't think there is a restriction on number of people who can have a character.

Captain Atom's power levels vary relatively often so who knows.

Deadman can be beaten by magic, assuming his spirit form.

#177 Posted by beatboks1 (8020 posts) - - Show Bio

@DireDrill: boschePG has dropped out so there is still a spot if you want it

#178 Posted by DireDrill (2483 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton: Who gets chosen is irrelevant it is how they are being used. Your team for instance has severe team chemistry issues that could be used to easily separate your team and then conquer them.

#179 Posted by Sovereign91001 (5842 posts) - - Show Bio
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#180 Edited by DireDrill (2483 posts) - - Show Bio

Cool!

I'll take:

Ultron (Techno-Organic)

Kid Amazo

Bastion (Pre-Death)

Eradicator

Apocalypse

#181 Posted by WillPayton (11802 posts) - - Show Bio

@DireDrill said:

@WillPayton: Who gets chosen is irrelevant it is how they are being used. Your team for instance has severe team chemistry issues that could be used to easily separate your team and then conquer them.

You just contradicted yourself in the single sentence. Either the characters chosen matter, or they dont matter.

But obviously the characters matter. You can be the best debater in the world, but you still wont convince anyone that Captain America can defeat Wonder Woman.

Online
#182 Posted by DireDrill (2483 posts) - - Show Bio

I did not. I am simply exposing a weakness in your team that could be exploited in your match to defeat your team despite your team having some potent powerhouses.

Captain America could easily talk Wonder Woman into not fighting him.

#183 Posted by beatboks1 (8020 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton:

when people just don't show they auto win by default, which takes away a lot of the fun of tournaments IMO

Also I think your looking at the advantage thing the wrong way. There are always characters available in these things who can match and defeat the best known owerhouses or ubber power levels. I always prefer to ick later in a tourney so i can see some of the choices and pick deliberate counters to address them. I'm pretty sure Mr ingenuity and a few other regular tourney goers do the same. In all likelyhood a few of my choices would be very different if I was not the first to pick. For one thing I wouldn't pickk Despero if I'd picked later.

you say that with debate you can't get past superior charactrrs yet in tournaments I do exactly that all the time. Using Mark Shaw ( the 4th Manhunter) I've beaten Dr Mcninja and Slade Wilson Terminator with tacticks. In the Good v Evil Tourney I beat three teams with more powerful or more versatile characters who had better feats and they were shown.

debate and tactics have a lot to do with how a tourney plays oit

#184 Posted by WillPayton (11802 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1 said:

@WillPayton:

when people just don't show they auto win by default, which takes away a lot of the fun of tournaments IMO

Also I think your looking at the advantage thing the wrong way. There are always characters available in these things who can match and defeat the best known owerhouses or ubber power levels. I always prefer to ick later in a tourney so i can see some of the choices and pick deliberate counters to address them. I'm pretty sure Mr ingenuity and a few other regular tourney goers do the same. In all likelyhood a few of my choices would be very different if I was not the first to pick. For one thing I wouldn't pickk Despero if I'd picked later.

you say that with debate you can't get past superior charactrrs yet in tournaments I do exactly that all the time. Using Mark Shaw ( the 4th Manhunter) I've beaten Dr Mcninja and Slade Wilson Terminator with tacticks. In the Good v Evil Tourney I beat three teams with more powerful or more versatile characters who had better feats and they were shown.

debate and tactics have a lot to do with how a tourney plays oit

Ok, good points. And yes I agree that who you chose against a certain team is important, but I'm also saying that it's very hard to win if you simply have an inferior team. The point being that losing doesnt mean you're a worse debater, sometimes it's just that your team wasnt as good as the other one.

I was just trying to offer a way to approach the tourney that would avoid it turning into a failure because of lack of participation. I also hate when these things turn into a popularity contest, and teams who obviously should lose the fight win because the people voting just like one debater over the other. That just seems ridiculous and I have no interest in that. If it's a tourney between teams, then the team should win based on its merits. So for example, maybe the debater fails to mention an important power of one of his team that would give him the win, but I'm aware of it. Should I ignore it and give the team a loss, or take that into account and give it a win? Well, I'm going to take it into account, because we're not voting on who has a greater knowledge of their team, we're voting on which team wins the battle.

Now if you say the tourney has nothing to do with the actual teams and who'd win the battles, fine. Make it a contest of knowledge of the teams and say that there is no actual battle between them. But, if those are the rules, then things like matching one character against another like you describe is relevant, because we're not actually judging who'd win a fight between them. See what I mean? It's either a battle or it's not. If it is, then I'm voting for the team that I think will win, not the person who's more knowledgeable about his team.

Online
#185 Posted by beatboks1 (8020 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton:

I was just trying to offer a way to approach the tourney that would avoid it turning into a failure because of lack of participation.

The thing is ( the others can back me up on this if they like) most of us who play tourney's ( just like CaV) enjoy the debate and the too and fro. We enjoy exploring the characters and Seeing just how far we can take them. For me personally I like to do tourneys with characters that have either not been seen for a while or who have limited appearances because it's a chance for me to tell a story with them. If my opponent doesn't show i don't get the chance to build the story around the actions he chooses to make. Whether I win or loose is completely irrelevant to me. I really couldn't care about the win except in that it gives me a chance to tell another story. The other fun is in researching and being introduced to new characters that I haven't experienced before. That's the whole fun of a tourney and if your opponents don't even offer rebuttal it looses it's fun. Usually when that happens those who want to play loose interest because they aren't getting the interaction that they wanted from it.

Now for the questions re this mornings post. Will I assume your all good, note as you didn't state so Cyborg supes will be without any yellow lantern rings.

I so far only have a PM from Cadence to support his case but no-one has done a team change up on the disputed ones ( no more disputed so far)

Are you still in ? What version if any of Doom do you want? Jugg's wont be trion

Can you please confirm your still playing

Any issues with characters other than those you've already raised? If you have some with man thing can you PM me evidence of what puts him over.

You All Good ?

Also forgot to ask you which version of Fate. for the record Kent/Classic will be off the table. That leaves you Erik/Linda, Linda, Inza, Hector, and Kent V ( I'm going to assume you wont want Kalid since he so far has ZERO feats).

Since you haven't pm'd me a defense for wally as this morning's post I'm assuming your changing him?? By the looks of it any other Flash is OK since they have the getting sucked into thespeed force weakness that actually gives them a top speed.

You still in this

Still no support for Kuurth or a swap ?? Since I missed the Doom thing it's gone too far into it to make you change up now, sorry.

I know there is no need to ask you or Esquire or Backflip



We seem to still have issues with Kyle ( white lantern that is the version people are most concerned with) and Phoenix Cyclops. You ahven't PM'd me what you beleive are the top end feats of either so are you swapping out??

I work a long day tomorrow ( Sunday - 8pm Sat my time). Will kick off on Monday morning some time my time

:

Are you three all still in

Your team looks fine

#186 Posted by afueikawa (1109 posts) - - Show Bio

@DireDrill said:

@beatboks1: @beatboks1 said:

@Esquire: can he still only copy mutants or wider

This is a common misconception. Mimic's powers work on pretty much everyone and everything. Mimic himself is not a mutant, he is a mutate. He has copied the Hulk, a mutate, feron, a magic user, and his powers overloaded the Super Adaptoid, a machine. Machines, Mutates, Mutants, and Magic Users are all within his ability to copy.

Amazo's primary directive is to destroy the Justice League, when the Atom disbanded the League, his primary directive was completed. He wasn't powerless, his program had just run to its conclusion. Later on Ivo reworked it so that Amazo can copy any abilities he comes across. I am assuming that is using the post Tornado's path Amazo which was soloing the assembled Justice League.

I wish I had been here to enter this.

Yeah, I'm referring to that Amazo with all JL powers intact of course.

:P

#187 Posted by Sovereign91001 (5842 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1:

Okay my team is gonna need some changes I read the O.P all my guys have to be able to work together so I have to (regrettably) cut Vulcan. I'll take Nova-Prime in his place. As for Fate since Fate's can use the Amulet to interact with previous Fates my understanding is Fate be able to use abilities shown by previous hosts of the amulet also because Nabu is the same througout all Fate incarnations can't any feat with Nabu in control of Fate be used as well?

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#188 Posted by 202122 (1260 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: ok well since apparently WW is to good for some reason i'll replace him with Maxima

#189 Posted by beatboks1 (8020 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sovereign91001 said:

@beatboks1:

Okay my team is gonna need some changes I read the O.P all my guys have to be able to work together so I have to (regrettably) cut Vulcan. I'll take Nova-Prime in his place. As for Fate since Fate's can use the Amulet to interact with previous Fates my understanding is Fate be able to use abilities shown by previous hosts of the amulet also because Nabu is the same througout all Fate incarnations can't any feat with Nabu in control of Fate be used as well?

No not feats. If you were hector you could have the guidance of previous versions of Fate but not the feats of them. He was the only version who showed this capability. Hector had good feats but none of the universal level reality warping that Classic Showed in a few tales. Classic fought Spectre and held his own for several pages on a few occasions.

That would be like me taking 30th Century Mordru who could solo the combined SILVER AGE LoSH, JLA, and JSA combined ( including one shotting Fate- that grouping had about 8 SA Superman level characters). That's a far cry from the 20th century one who has been beaten by solo characters including two chosen in this tourney.

#190 Posted by Sovereign91001 (5842 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: Ah oh well, I'll stick with Kent V then.

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#191 Posted by beatboks1 (8020 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sovereign91001 said:

Cool, you can probably use Hector feats for Kent V as well, since at the end the Helm was shown to be a magic library that could make the user "aware" of the spell they needed if they were ope to it. That being the case he would know how to do the spells Hector did and nothing that Hec did seemed anywhere near Classic ridiculous levels.

@202122: that's cool

#192 Posted by New_World_Order (13893 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: I'm good. I just wanted to see if bornstar wanted to trade his Thor for my Silver Surfer.

#193 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: My Goal in online vine life is to beat you, laflux, Killemall, and God_Spawn in a debate. Im Shallow till I beat you at least once then I wont care who wins between us. LOL

#194 Posted by Juiceboks (13725 posts) - - Show Bio

Of course. There are certain teams in the tourney I cant wait to face.

#195 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (33096 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: Yeah I'm still in.

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#196 Posted by DireDrill (2483 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton said:

@beatboks1 said:

@WillPayton:

when people just don't show they auto win by default, which takes away a lot of the fun of tournaments IMO

Also I think your looking at the advantage thing the wrong way. There are always characters available in these things who can match and defeat the best known owerhouses or ubber power levels. I always prefer to ick later in a tourney so i can see some of the choices and pick deliberate counters to address them. I'm pretty sure Mr ingenuity and a few other regular tourney goers do the same. In all likelyhood a few of my choices would be very different if I was not the first to pick. For one thing I wouldn't pickk Despero if I'd picked later.

you say that with debate you can't get past superior charactrrs yet in tournaments I do exactly that all the time. Using Mark Shaw ( the 4th Manhunter) I've beaten Dr Mcninja and Slade Wilson Terminator with tacticks. In the Good v Evil Tourney I beat three teams with more powerful or more versatile characters who had better feats and they were shown.

debate and tactics have a lot to do with how a tourney plays oit

Ok, good points. And yes I agree that who you chose against a certain team is important, but I'm also saying that it's very hard to win if you simply have an inferior team. The point being that losing doesnt mean you're a worse debater, sometimes it's just that your team wasnt as good as the other one.

I was just trying to offer a way to approach the tourney that would avoid it turning into a failure because of lack of participation. I also hate when these things turn into a popularity contest, and teams who obviously should lose the fight win because the people voting just like one debater over the other. That just seems ridiculous and I have no interest in that. If it's a tourney between teams, then the team should win based on its merits. So for example, maybe the debater fails to mention an important power of one of his team that would give him the win, but I'm aware of it. Should I ignore it and give the team a loss, or take that into account and give it a win? Well, I'm going to take it into account, because we're not voting on who has a greater knowledge of their team, we're voting on which team wins the battle.

Now if you say the tourney has nothing to do with the actual teams and who'd win the battles, fine. Make it a contest of knowledge of the teams and say that there is no actual battle between them. But, if those are the rules, then things like matching one character against another like you describe is relevant, because we're not actually judging who'd win a fight between them. See what I mean? It's either a battle or it's not. If it is, then I'm voting for the team that I think will win, not the person who's more knowledgeable about his team.

Inferior teams beat superior teams all the time. How many times has Spider-man defeated the Sinister 6? They have Electro and Sandman who are both ridiculously powerful and Spider-man takes them on despite being a vastly weaker person. Participation is always going to be an issue regardless of approach because we can't compel participation. Deathstroke should handily defeat Mark Shaw. He is faster, stronger, and more skilled but beatboks1 was able to convince people that Mark should win. The team should win based on its merits as presented by the debater. If the debater fails to deliver a compelling argument then by all means you should vote against the team you know should win. In the situation where a debater has failed to present information that should give him an advantage then you do not use that information in judging who to vote for. You are not voting for characters, you are voting for people. If the person has done a crappy job representing their characters then they do not deserve your vote. Let's say you are a republican and you are voting in an election and that you are for less regulation. The republican candidate's plans for once he is in office actually increase regulation while the democrats plans do not. If you vote for the republican because he is a republican then you are voting wrong because the republican actually will be working against your interests. Now if you vote for the republican because the democrat failed to bring this to your attention then that is perfectly fine because the democrat failed to present a good case for why you should vote for him. Voting for the characters you think wins is like voting straight republican because you are a republican, it is stupid and leads to poor debaters getting accolades they should not.

A debate tourney comes down to Knowledge and Application of said Knowledge. Knowledge without application is meaningless.

#197 Posted by Esquire (3960 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: Man-Thing is probably fine. As far as I know he's totally legal before Fear Itself, and Cadence isn't using the Fear Itself feats, so I have no problem with him. New-52 Captain Atom will be an issue for most teams because he's basically unkillable, but my team won't have much trouble with him so I won't complain. Other than that I don't have anything to mention that hasn't already been brought up.

When it comes to a team winning purely because it's more powerful, my views are summed up pretty nicely by the fact that my team in this Cosmic-level tournament has two street levelers.

#198 Posted by WillPayton (11802 posts) - - Show Bio

@DireDrill said:

A debate tourney comes down to Knowledge and Application of said Knowledge. Knowledge without application is meaningless.

@Esquire said:

When it comes to a team winning purely because it's more powerful, my views are summed up pretty nicely by the fact that my team in this Cosmic-level tournament has two street levelers.

I'm not disagreeing that how you debate the battle matters. I'm just saying that at the end of the day the question is either "who debated better" or "which team wins"? They are not the same thing.

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#199 Posted by DireDrill (2483 posts) - - Show Bio

You have a very interesting team but I have already built in counters to your team in my own. Joshua Coldrake is going to knock some of the contestants for a loop especially when combined with Damper.

#200 Posted by Esquire (3960 posts) - - Show Bio

@DireDrill: I like my odds against most of the teams here, but yours is one of the three or so that really worry me. There should be some very interesting debates here, though. Lots of strong teams.