Plagueis vs Mace Windu

Both are at their peak and are going all out.

@Silver2467 said:

Plagueis would win just about every time.

Talking about power first, Plagueis is significantly superior. Telekinetically, he has supported a collapsing cave, then threw the falling rubble down as well as breaking off pieces of the ceiling/walls himself, and later stacked that rubble; shook the ground with enough force to cause several people to fall (he did this while injured); practically atomized half a dozen people at once; and so on. Mace at best can lift multiple trees but is unable to manage certain lifts, such as in Shatterpoint when he was incapable of picking up a transport to save a group of young soldiers. He has more noticeable limitations than Plagueis does, and in general, Plagueis' feats in this regard are simply more impressive. Lightning could probably be accounted for by Mace's lightsaber drawing it in, but if Plagueis did manage to land a hit with it, it could be potentially devastating. He once reduced a person's bones to ash with it (although as I recall, he absorbed a blaster bolt before doing this) and has enough range to spread his Lightning far across a field. The trouble is tagging him though, and I doubt Mace would allow that. He is more than fast enough to catch Lightning on his lightsaber. Speed, there is a substantial difference, and this is part of why Plagueis wins. Plagueis is in Yoda's speed class, above Mace's. He has fought armies, deflected blaster bolts from dozens of droids (which circling Sidious, which shows that his running speed exceeds that of a blaster bolt), ran in a blur, and so on. But the two feats that really place him ahead of Mace are when he moved so quickly that 11-4D could only see him in a blur (4D itself is fast enough to dodge blaster bolts; so for him to be unable to visually track Plagueis very well says quite a bit about the latter's speed), and when Plagueis dueled Venamis and they left blurring motions of their blades throughout different parts of the forest simultaneously (Plagueis mused that to an onlooker, their blurs would look like lightning bolts that spread all around the forest). Mace is fast, having reflected fire from a few shooters, moved his blade imperceptibly fast, and thrown blows faster than thought and the like, but he is not on that speed level. This is not to say that Plagueis would instantly overwhelm him by pure speed, because even though characters such as Yoda are discernibly faster than Jedi in Mace's class, they never outright overpowered them by speed alone. But it would make a difference in the long run. Plagueis possesses a few other powers that theoretically could be an issue, such as his Force Scream (which has shattered people's eardrums) or his Dark Rage (which has made his strong enough to smash people's skulls and punch holes through armored chests) or his Protection (which he used to be unharmed by slash and biting wounds) and so on, but there is no guarantee these would turn up. More than likely, he would duel Windu and rely on the more applicable and common offensive powers. Dueling skill, the two are about equal. Mace's bests feats are fighting equally with General Grievous and Dooku. Plaguies beat Venamis, who was trained in exactly the same forms that Plagueis himself was and was trained to fight Plagueis specifically, knowing Plagueis' form, habits, stance, and so on. But Plagueis still eventually defeated him. The only character Mace has conclusively beaten in a duel under his own power is Asajj Ventress, who would never hold a candle to Plagueis. Even if Plagueis was not as skilled as Mace (which there is strong evidence to suggest he is), his considerable power and decent speed advantages would make up the difference enough for him to win. Plagueis 10/10

Mace was crushing Battle Drioids though which should be harder then a human skull. So I don't think Plagueis has the physical advantage. But I agree with the rest.

Plagueis sounds like a beast. Was he better than Palpatine?

@Silver2467 said:

Plagueis would win just about every time.

Talking about power first, Plagueis is significantly superior. Telekinetically, he has supported a collapsing cave, then threw the falling rubble down as well as breaking off pieces of the ceiling/walls himself, and later stacked that rubble; shook the ground with enough force to cause several people to fall (he did this while injured); practically atomized half a dozen people at once; and so on. Mace at best can lift multiple trees but is unable to manage certain lifts, such as in Shatterpoint when he was incapable of picking up a transport to save a group of young soldiers. He has more noticeable limitations than Plagueis does, and in general, Plagueis' feats in this regard are simply more impressive. Lightning could probably be accounted for by Mace's lightsaber drawing it in, but if Plagueis did manage to land a hit with it, it could be potentially devastating. He once reduced a person's bones to ash with it (although as I recall, he absorbed a blaster bolt before doing this) and has enough range to spread his Lightning far across a field. The trouble is tagging him though, and I doubt Mace would allow that. He is more than fast enough to catch Lightning on his lightsaber. Speed, there is a substantial difference, and this is part of why Plagueis wins. Plagueis is in Yoda's speed class, above Mace's. He has fought armies, deflected blaster bolts from dozens of droids (which circling Sidious, which shows that his running speed exceeds that of a blaster bolt), ran in a blur, and so on. But the two feats that really place him ahead of Mace are when he moved so quickly that 11-4D could only see him in a blur (4D itself is fast enough to dodge blaster bolts; so for him to be unable to visually track Plagueis very well says quite a bit about the latter's speed), and when Plagueis dueled Venamis and they left blurring motions of their blades throughout different parts of the forest simultaneously (Plagueis mused that to an onlooker, their blurs would look like lightning bolts that spread all around the forest). Mace is fast, having reflected fire from a few shooters, moved his blade imperceptibly fast, and thrown blows faster than thought and the like, but he is not on that speed level. This is not to say that Plagueis would instantly overwhelm him by pure speed, because even though characters such as Yoda are discernibly faster than Jedi in Mace's class, they never outright overpowered them by speed alone. But it would make a difference in the long run. Plagueis possesses a few other powers that theoretically could be an issue, such as his Force Scream (which has shattered people's eardrums) or his Dark Rage (which has made his strong enough to smash people's skulls and punch holes through armored chests) or his Protection (which he used to be unharmed by slash and biting wounds) and so on, but there is no guarantee these would turn up. More than likely, he would duel Windu and rely on the more applicable and common offensive powers. Dueling skill, the two are about equal. Mace's bests feats are fighting equally with General Grievous and Dooku. Plaguies beat Venamis, who was trained in exactly the same forms that Plagueis himself was and was trained to fight Plagueis specifically, knowing Plagueis' form, habits, stance, and so on. But Plagueis still eventually defeated him. The only character Mace has conclusively beaten in a duel under his own power is Asajj Ventress, who would never hold a candle to Plagueis. Even if Plagueis was not as skilled as Mace (which there is strong evidence to suggest he is), his considerable power and decent speed advantages would make up the difference enough for him to win. Plagueis 10/10

Agreed on all points. Didn't Plagueis use Jar'Kai?

Plagueis is far more potent in the Force, and seems faster than Mace in the novels. Speed counts for a lot in lightsaber combat.

@Silver2467: Yeah, what little ive read of the Plagueis novels do keep descriptions of his and Palpatine's style vague. Maybe artistic choice? Palpatine's style seems to be a blend of several different styles based on the description in the Ep III novelization. Maybe Palgueis is the same way....

@Silver2467 said:

@steelhound56: Could be. It has never been confirmed what form Palpatine specializes in, and Luceno may have simply chosen to lend that ambiguity to Plagueis as well. I took no issue with that personally, but it is interesting to note.

Now, we can form an educated guess as to what style Sidious prefers. I have always been under the impression he favors Juyo. The reason for that is mostly based on his duels in the Revenge of the Sith novelization, The Wrath of Darth Maul, and Dark Empire. In RotS, when Palpatine fought Tiin, Kolar, Fisto, and Windu, he employed his considerable running speed in conjunction with his even more considerable combat speed to just run circles around his opponents and slash at them repeatedly and relentlessly. This bears the mark of Juyo. In TWoDM, he did the same, running and fighting Maul faster than Maul could see him at times and circling him as he threw out attacks. However, in this instance, Sidious was holding back to test Maul; so this was far less evident here and much more brief, as he only struck a few times and then allowed Maul to throw the rest of the blows. In DE, particularly in the second duel, Palpatine adopted one-handed strokes against Luke, and in the audio drama, Leia remarked on their movement speed as beyond her capacity to see, again hinting that Palpatine just ran and attacked as much as possible. The first duel is similar to that, in the audio drama at least, though the comic does depict Palpatine throwing a broad, two-handed blow to disarm Luke that looks like a Djem So tactic (though Juyo can fall back on a two-handed grip as well). Overall, in the majority of his duels, his style seems to be Juyo, based on what we know of the forms, but he also seems to alternate between forms as needed, such as in his first duel with Luke to disarm him or in his duel with Yoda where the environment worked against him. Plagueis though is harder to say. There was little indication of what stances or maneuvers he practiced. It was noted in the novel that Plagueis made a point not to waste time on unnecessary acrobatics; so he is probably not an Ataru master. He did also commend skillful usage of Jar'Kai; so he could be adept in that. But aside from that, not much was given as to what his techniques were.

Make sense Palps uses whatever works. I think we can deduce his default is Juyo but he will breakout other styles as needed to gain advantages.

@Silver2467 said:

@ComicStooge said:

Was he better than Palpatine?

No.

Wait. so if Plagueis isn't more powerful then Sidious, then how on earth does he beat Windu? Windu beat Sidious and almost killed him if it wasn't for Emo-Skywalker,Sr. interfering.

I bet Silver's so sick of explaining how Mace was able to fight Palpatine.

@Silver2467 said:

@jojjimbo said:

@Silver2467 said:

@ComicStooge said:

Was he better than Palpatine?

No.

Wait. so if Plagueis isn't more powerful then Sidious, then how on earth does he beat Windu? Windu beat Sidious and almost killed him if it wasn't for Emo-Skywalker,Sr. interfering.

No, he didn't. Mace was amped to a ridiculous degree, Palpatine was still equal to him in combat skill even with that amp, and Sidious misdirected his Force senses to cause him to believe he was afraid when he never was. Unless Mace has a considerable speed amplification here, he is not doing that well.

No he didn't what?? maybe you watch a different movie then i did(i don't know perhaps you where given some special directors cut that only you got to watch) but what i and everyone else saw, was Windu beast Sidious, and would have killed him too, and with out this speed amplification your talking about.

@Silver2467 said:

@jojjimbo said:

No he didn't what?? maybe you watch a different movie then i did(i don't know perhaps you where given some special directors cut that only you got to watch) but what i and everyone else saw, was Windu beast Sidious, and would have killed him too, and with out this speed amplification your talking about.

Because Mace, too, has an attachment. Mace has a secret love. Mace Windu loves the Republic.
Many of his students quote him to students of their own: "Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace."
For Mace Windu, for all his life, for all the lives of a thousand years of Jedi before him, true civilization has had only one true name: the Republic.
He has given his life in the service of his love. He has taken lives in its service, and lost the lives of innocents. He has seen beings that he cares for maimed, and killed, and sometimes worse: sometimes so broken by the horror of the struggle that their only answer was to commit horrors greater still.
And because of that love now, here, in this instant, Anakin Skywalker has nine words for him that shred his heart, burn its pieces, and feed him its smoking ashes.
Palpatine is Sidious. The Chancellor is the Sith Lord.
He doesn't even hear the words, not really; their true meaning is too large for his mind gather in all at once.
They mean that all he's done, and all that has been done to him—
That all the Order has accomplished, all it has suffered—
All the Galaxy itself has gone through, all the years of suffering and slaughter, the death of entire planets—
Has all been for nothing.
Because it was all done to save the Republic.
Which was already gone.
Which had already fallen.
The corpse of which had been defended only by a Jedi Order that was now under the command of a Dark Lord of the Sith. Mace Windu's entire existence has become crystal so shot-through with flaws that the hammer of those nine words has crushed him to sand.

Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Yes, Mace was factually and irrefutably amped; yes, he did only reach an impasse with Palpatine; and no, he could not have killed him. Palpatine could have killed Mace any time he wanted with Lightning but chose not to.

To make that worse, before Mace tapped into his amp, Palpatine killed Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar before Mace even saw it, meaning Sidious is faster than Mace to a ridiculous degree under normal circumstances.

Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

Post something of substance. Mace is not even superior to Dooku or Kar Vastor, let alone Palpatine.

Is this something Mace could do at will?? i mean could he use this amped ability anytime he fights a Sith Lord, like he did with Palpatine?

@Silver2467:

Also, is the dark side stronger? because what i see the Jedi only get telekinesis/telepathy...while the Sith get that plus lighting attacks and Plagueis was said to have found a way to prolong his life using the dark side, that's pretty strong...so is the dark side stronger?

@Silver2467 said:

@jojjimbo said:

Is this something Mace could do at will?? i mean could he use this amped ability anytime he fights a Sith Lord, like he did with Palpatine?

No. It happened because his attachment to the Republic had been shattered. Let me just copy/paste my explanation in my blog: "Mace received a temporary, critical speed augmentation for this one duel. This happened because of the nature of Vaapad. Vaapad is an off-shoot of the Juyo form of lightsaber combat. Juyo is an aggressive and erratic fighting form, much more than even Ataru is, and it is this aggression that has made it a matter of discussion among Jedi whether Juyo is a safe style to learn. It relies on simply relentless strokes thrown continually until the user's opponent is defeated. The notable difference between Juyo and Vaapad is that Vaapad is a channel for darkness. It takes the user 'through the penumbra of the dark side.' Vaapad affords the practitioner the ability to harness their own inner darkness as a ferocity and drive in combat but does so without them falling victim to their darkness. Basically, Mace or Sora or Depa could draw on their darkness and still stay true to the light. Vaapad also works to turn the darkness of the enemy against them, but this has its limitations. It does not equate to an instant victory against any dark sider; if it did, Mace would not have lost his fight with Kar Vastor. The more darkness in the user, the more potent Vaapad will be. However, in Mace's duel with Palpatine, he achieved a fighting state he had never accomplished before, and this happened because, at that time, the darkness within him had been monumentally increased. It was increased because Mace had an attachment to the Republic that was shattered when Anakin told him that Palpatine, the Republic's Supreme Chancellor, was the Sith. The Republic he had been fighting for had already fallen under the Sith's influence, and this affected him at his core, heightening his darkness. On account of that, Mace managed to wield his own immensely accentuated darkness, Sidious' darkness, and Anakin's fear in order to enhance his speed so much that Anakin was unable to see the movements of Mace's blade and instead only saw the dozens of afterimages of it and the "nets" and "oblate sphere" he blurred from his lightsaber. Mace has never shown to be faster than Anakin or anyone of Anakin's speed class. Characters such as General Grievous, Asajj Ventress, Count Dooku, Saesee Tiin, Anakin, and others are all roughly even in speed (Anakin has demonstrated feats of speed that imply he could be faster when operating at his peak). Mace and Dooku dueled briefly on Boz Pity without Mace gaining any advantage. Ventress fought with Mace briefly before her being forced to flee, but he never outmatched her in speed. Grievous roughly stalemated Mace in a duel. Point is, Windu's consistent feats show that he is nowhere near the fighting speed depicted in his duel with Palpatine, and the book makes it very clear that he was amped in that fight."

I guess it makes sense, and it also explains why Windu almost defeated Sidious, something that Yoda couldn't do, and Yoda was describe at the most powerful Jedi of his time...good read.

@Silver2467 said:

@jojjimbo said:

@Silver2467:

Also, is the dark side stronger? because what i see the Jedi only get telekinesis/telepathy...while the Sith get that plus lighting attacks and Plagueis was said to have found a way to prolong his life using the dark side, that's pretty strong...so is the dark side stronger?

Plagueis failed to prolong his life.

And I doubt there is much disparity in power toward either side. The most powerful Force sensitive to exist, Luke, was a Jedi. He practiced the light side and was still more powerful than any Sith. And, although TK, TP, and Lightning are more or less the only powers that Jedi and Sith have in the movies, there are quite a few others in the EU. Luke, for instance, has controlled the weather, caused matter to explode, generated a variant of Lightning, dismantled machinery, and so on.

Did not know that, i wish they had show some of those extra powers in the movie it would have been nice to see.

@Silver2467:

Thanks for the recommendation, will do.