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#51 Edited by Marshall_Long (3291 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Yeah that would mean that the Supreme Kai isn't even as Strong as Cell, and Pikkon is at least around the level of Perfect Cell since he fought evenly with a SSJ Goku, Piccolo is nowhere near the level Supreme Kai which would mean he's nowhere near the level of Perfect Cell, so I think Piccolo really made no progress during his training those 7 years.

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#52 Edited by THC (371 posts) - - Show Bio
@marshall_long said:

Piccolo is nowhere near the level Supreme Kai

Wrong, Piccolo was only intimidated because he could sense what the other Z-fighters couldn't. Power not in the form of ki. Piccolo has a direct connection to Otherworld and the Kais due to fusing with Kami, the Guardian of Earth.

Supreme Kai was one-shotted by Buu and visibly lacked fighting experience and martial arts training due to his age and lack of mentors. He was noted as the weakest Supreme Kai to ever exist (yet could still one-shot max power Frieza without effort). As well he was a strategical moron. It was only his inherent cosmic power as a Kai that set Piccolo off guard, which the other Z-fighters couldn't detect.

#53 Edited by Marshall_Long (3291 posts) - - Show Bio

@thc: Oh right forgot about that haven't seen the Buu Saga in while only watch clips of it Youtube every once in a while.

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#54 Edited by Lvenger (23408 posts) - - Show Bio

@thc said:
@marshall_long said:

Piccolo is nowhere near the level Supreme Kai

Wrong, Piccolo was only intimidated because he could sense what the other Z-fighters couldn't. Power not in the form of ki. Piccolo has a direct connection to Otherworld and the Kais due to fusing with Kami, the Guardian of Earth.

Supreme Kai was one-shotted by Buu and visibly lacked fighting experience and martial arts training due to his age and lack of mentors. He was noted as the weakest Supreme Kai to ever exist (yet could still one-shot max power Frieza without effort). As well he was a strategical moron. It was only his inherent cosmic power as a Kai that set Piccolo off guard, which the other Z-fighters couldn't detect.

Huh that makes some sense. So he wasn't awed by physical power but by the godly ki the Supreme Ki was emitting. It was the same in Battle of the Gods where Goku couldn't detect Bills' godly ki and the SSJ God form was said to be more than increasing one's power level wasn't it?

#55 Posted by P0rtal (916 posts) - - Show Bio

Definitely Pikkon.

#56 Posted by THC (371 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

Huh that makes some sense. So he wasn't awed by physical power but by the godly ki the Supreme Ki was emitting. It was the same in Battle of the Gods where Goku couldn't detect Bills' godly ki and the SSJ God form was said to be more than increasing one's power level wasn't it?

I'd guess Bills and Super Saiyan God are similar to the Kais, too, but I haven't seen the movie or spoiled much of it for myself yet. Goku must have been able to sense him (at least in SSJGod form) since he was Instant Transmissioning after him the whole fight.

That fact seems strange to me, I don't understand why Bills would constantly be running away... but yeah I'll see it when an English dub comes around.

#57 Posted by Lvenger (23408 posts) - - Show Bio

@thc: It won't be for a while until we get the English dub. And some DBZ shows like the Yo! Son Goku one haven't been dubbed yet and they came out years ago.

#58 Edited by P0rtal (916 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't forget that Piccolo merged with Kami. I am sure Kami knew or had the ability to sense anyone divine or special in that manner. He knew supreme kai was special. Intuition or some special sense that guardians of a planet are automatically endowed with. Just speculation. Piccolo was never nearly as powerful as Trunks or Super Vegeta, but I think at maximum during the Cell games, SSJ1 Goku was probably stronger than both Trunks and Super Vegeta, with Piccolo far behind. In my opinion, Pikkon is a lot stronger than Piccolo due to nearly beating SSj1 Goku after a death zenkai power boost after he blew himself up. ( not sure if goku got a zenkai after dying, but I always thought he did ) My reasoning is that Yemma asked Vegeta to go back and fight Buu after he killed himself, sort of implying Vegeta was a bit stronger than he was before coming to Otherworld.

#59 Edited by Deranged Midget (18230 posts) - - Show Bio

@thc said:

More powerful than when he fought Android 17. It is debatable where Piccolo lies in power in the Buu Saga, but I'd say somewhere around Dabura, give or take a little. If he couldn't stand up to a SSJ2 for even one shot, he'd have no business participating in the tournament. He is different from 18 and Krillin in that regard... their struggle is explained.

Piccolo's regenerative capabilities allow him to keep going against far stronger foes when others fail. When he lost his arm to Raditz he was completely calm, whereas when Tien had his knocked off by Nappa he was on the ground screaming. Tien, being the greatest human warrior in history, didn't stop fighting of course, but he was clearly disturbed by it moreso than Piccolo was. In fact, the reason Piccolo didn't grow his arm back was because he realized at that point it was a waste of energy and wouldn't help him.

2nd Form Frieza was able to speedblitz and one-shot Vegeta, who was equal to 1st form Frieza. By fusing with Nail, Piccolo had a substantial increase in power and fought 2nd form Frieza nearly to a standstill. In my opinion, it was his regeneration that helped keep him in the fight for so long. There's no reason to think such an experienced, intelligent, powerful warrior wouldn't utilize his regenerative capabilities during fights.


Sorry for the late response mate.

There is no possibly way he is as powerful as Dabura nor is he anywhere close to that level of power. Gohan, albeit lacking in training, still relatively kept and grew in power due to age but lost skill and technique and still barely kept up with Dabura. As for joining the tournament, he did so just because Goku was and basically for nostalgic reasons. Why do you think Krillin and 18 joined when they both knew they were severely outmatched by Goku, Gohan and Vegeta? Same exact reasons as Piccolo. Everyone there knew it'd be one of those three who would win and yet, they still joined.

Piccolo barely continued his fight against Raditz when his arm was lost, he didn't even really fight at all. He was simply building up his power as Goku distracted Raditz because they both knew they had no chance whatsoever in keeping up with his power anymore. I don't see the comparison between Tien losing his arm to Piccolo. Tien fought by his lonesome against a far superior opponent and fell in combat. Piccolo, as I mentioned above, used up all his energy to power up the Special Beam canon as he couldn't fight anymore and had Goku to aid him.

Also, Piccolo was barely even injured against second form Frieza. He was on superior standing, hence why Frieza was forced to advance to his third state because he was overcome by Piccolo's fused power. His "regenerative" abilities were of no use there. Once Frieza transformed, Piccolo was smacked around like a ragdoll and he was one-shotted by Frieza's death ray. If his regenerative abilities were truly advanced enough to aid him, he would've kept on going but it was quite the opposite.

No one is a smarter fighter than Goku, but Piccolo is one of the closest, along with Vegeta, Tien, etc. Piccolo has the minds of himself, Nail, and Kami. He has proven time and time again, even while just himself, he is one of the most intelligent and wisest characters in the series. When he gets knocked out in combat, it's usually because he's looking out for someone else.

Of course it proved useless against Cell's second form. Android 16 punched Semi-perfect Cell and he didn't move a nanometer. Piccolo could have used a Kamehameha and it would have had no effect as well, but his techniques are superior, so why would he? Goku's Super Kamehameha hurt Raditz, for sure, but the Special Beam Cannon killed him.

Their techniques rarely show explicit signs or evidence of improving. Especially in cases like Vegeta, where we have no idea exactly how powerful his Gallick Gun or Final Flash are. But Piccolo showed continuous growth in his arsenal of abilities throughout the series, where others like Tien and Yamcha didn't, just as they fell behind in raw power.


Piccolo is easily the second most skilled in regards to martial arts behind Goku and possibly Vegeta, I can easily agree with that. Although, whenever Piccolo is knocked out, it's because most of the time the opponent is far superior to him. Simple as that.

Piccolo can't have used the Kamehameha because he has knowledge of the technique. Again, you have little evidence as to how his techniques are superior or how that would make a difference. Piccolo is severely weaker when compared to all the other Saiyans during the Cell saga or any other that follow (save for possibly Goten and Trunks). Regardless of how capable his techniques are, they will never be more useful because he is far weaker than Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, etc.

By the Cell saga Piccolo could instantly cast out Special Beam Cannons. He could easily do just that to Pikkon and follow up with a defence-penetration Special Beam Cannon, and given the fact that it's destroyed opponents over 3 times as powerful as him, it would have no trouble penetrating Pikkon while he's blind and defenseless.

Goku's Super Kamehameha was stronger because Goku himself was stronger than Piccolo. Piccolo's techniques are clearly superior to the Kamehameha, especially going by feats, and the Masenko is Gohan's creation... he's not exactly the brightest fighter in the books.

Both Pikkon and Goku repeatedly got the best of each other as they continually increased their power. Goku was obviously not trying his hardest, and was treating it rather as sport. Pikkon was able to trade blows with Goku so he's obviously a skilled H2H fighter, but he was foolish, and inexperienced enough to charge up his attack 3 times. Pikkon clearly was lacking in experience in fighting opponents of similar power, which Piccolo is not.

Being able to utilize his techniques with ease is not uncommon as the Z-fighters grew more accustomed with their abilities and grew in power. Goku could toss out several Kamehameha waves but it doesn't mean they would all have the same level of power if he didn't build up his energy into them. Just because Piccolo's special beam canon worked against Raditz, doesn't mean it will have the same effect on every opponent he faces. Take SSJ2 Gohan vs Perfect Cell. He utilized SBC against Gohan but had it swatted away as if it was nothing. A superior opponent will be able to deflect an inferior technique or blast with ease.

Goku's Super Kamehameha was stronger because Goku himself was stronger than Piccolo

You basically just stated what I've been saying this entire time. Piccolo's techniques are of no use here because his power is weaker than that of the opponent he is facing. I still fail to see how Piccolo's techniques are superior to Goku's in any fashion. He might have an advantage in variety and diversity but that's about it. Goku has the edge in power when it comes to the Super Saiyan transformation, Kaio-ken, Kamehameha, and Spirit Bomb.

How do we know that Goku wasn't trying his hardest? His injuries were greater than the ones he sustained when fighting against Cell. His power may have been slightly greater than that of Pikkon's but he himself admitted he was greatly outmatched in terms of speed and pure technique. Piccolo would do no better as he is far weaker than Goku was at that stage, even in the Buu saga.

I think it's completely insensible to think Piccolo got lazy like Gohan and Yamcha, and stayed the same power level or got weaker. But at the very least, yes, he stayed the same power as in the Cell Games...

However Piccolo is obviously determined to fight in the tournament. At 12:10 he states "Good, it makes for better fighting."

You are correct in that fact, Piccolo is not the type to avoid training, but as with Gohan and the others, he reduced his time due to the peace on Earth. Vegeta was clearly the only one who continue through and pushed on with his training as besides Goku, he improved the greatest.

Again, Piccolo was determined to fight in the tournament, as was everyone else, because of Goku's temporary return, not because of his power. Krillin and 18's decision to join aids my supports my argument.

Piccolo only starts getting nervous when the Supreme Kai shows up.

And that's partly because he's fused with Kami, who is connected to Other World and the Kais, being the former Guardian of Earth. Piccolo would have a greater sense of their power than even Goku (and Vegeta). Krillin didn't think them too powerful, as he is just a human who can sense ki. Even Videl was picking up strange vibes from them (though she proved her spiritual power by learning to fly in a day, something no one except Goten has replicated to date):

I don't see what this has to do with anything but ok. Piccolo being able to sense Supreme Kai's heritage means very little as the Kai himself proved to be far weaker than many of the Z-fighters, especially Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta.

As for Piccolo reading his Ki, that means nothing. Goku and Vegeta both had vastly improved and yet, Piccolo sensed nothing and was insanely surprised when he sensed Majin Vegeta's power when he went up against Buu. If he knew all along, he would have no reason to gawk in awe, especially when Goku transformed into a SSJ3.

But now most importantly.

"everyone assumed that Goku hadn't progressed whatsoever and that Gohan was still more powerful than him and Vegeta."

In fact, everyone assumed Goku and Vegeta had both surpassed Gohan.

Nobody in their right mind would assume Goku and Vegeta hadn't improved. Their debate wasn't over who was stronger than Gohan at all, it was who was stronger between Goku and Vegeta. Gohan had spent the last 7 years studying math and science. Vegeta spent the last 7 years training on Earth (and who knows where). Goku spent the last 7 years training with the Universe's greatest martial artists.

(13:40)

If Piccolo had spent the last 7 years sulking, rather than training, he would have had no business participating in the tournament.

No one had assumed that Goku and Vegeta surpassed Gohan. This was better implemented when Supreme Kai stated that Spopovich and Yamu went after Gohan's energy because he was determined to be the most powerful being at the World Martial Art's Tournament.

Obviously, Vegeta wanted to determine whether he finally surpassed Goku or not, but not once was it mentioned by anyone that Goku or Vegeta has presumably surpassed Gohan since neither had mentioned ascending beyond the level of Super Saiyan.