i don't really think that dark raven has any strong telepathy defenses or any at all for that matter.. so in that matter, raven's mind is putty and she dies horribly or peacefully, depending on the way..uhh i think we should scratch out the peaceful part being that this is the insane as dark phoenix her brain might just get ripped from her head loll
@BMEZY: True Dark Phoenix stomps....Raven does howver have some form of psychic defense...If there is a link between the minds she can share a piece of the evil in her mind which has driving people into comatose states...
Based on feats alone then Raven is going to loose as the worst time she went over the the dark side was during the Darkening (NTT 100-130 basically) and that was only a part of her inhabiting a meta-human womans body, thought she did crank up a huge body count of nameless people and mentally dominated a score of other meta's, Changeling and the Matrix Supergirl included. Those days ended up with her prodding Gordanians or Psions, not sure wich to blow up Tamaran and effectively kill the Technis Planet that Cyborg had grown attached to. Last time it didnt go as bad, but she did easilly flatten the other adult Titans and her six brothers before her own plan came into action.
Anyways, Raven could possibly match DF if she went all out if this is to be believed:
It's one thing that humans say it, its something else when a demon says stuff like that to your face (takes one to know one).
So potentially, yeah I think the two could have a decent scrap, but woe the universe when theres only one left.
Based on feats alone then Raven is going to loose as the worst time she went over the the dark side was during the Darkening (NTT 100-130 basically) and that was only a part of her inhabiting a meta-human womans body, thought she did crank up a huge body count of nameless people and mentally dominated a score of other meta's, Changeling and the Matrix Supergirl included. Those days ended up with her prodding Gordanians or Psions, not sure wich to blow up Tamaran and effectively kill the Technis Planet that Cyborg had grown attached to. Last time it didnt go as bad, but she did easilly flatten the other adult Titans and her six brothers before her own plan came into action.
Anyways, Raven could possibly match DF if she went all out if this is to be believed: It's one thing that humans say it, its something else when a demon says stuff like that to your face (takes one to know one). So potentially, yeah I think the two could have a decent scrap, but woe the universe when theres only one left.
based on this logic a cosmic being that can watch events on a multiveral scale and has been around since the universe was an infant, should be taken more seriously when he says this...
My first instinct is to say Phoenix without a doubt but then again if we are talking about full blown Dark trigon possessed Raven when it could turn into an interesting battle.. i will say that a young raven has been able to stand up to dark phoenix in the teen titan/young x men crossover and she is older now (pre 52 era).
My first instinct is to say Phoenix without a doubt but then again if we are talking about full blown Dark trigon possessed Raven when it could turn into an interesting battle.. i will say that a young raven has been able to stand up to dark phoenix in the teen titan/young x men crossover and she is older now (pre 52 era).
She's nowhere near the Phoenix. She dies in an effortless stomp.
My first instinct is to say Phoenix without a doubt but then again if we are talking about full blown Dark trigon possessed Raven when it could turn into an interesting battle.. i will say that a young raven has been able to stand up to dark phoenix in the teen titan/young x men crossover and she is older now (pre 52 era).
She's nowhere near the Phoenix. She dies in an effortless stomp.
@outside_85: At your request. Here are only some of Phoenix Jean's feats, there are plenty more but I'm too lazy to get them all, you can look them up on threads and other forums, comic vine has many. The last one is a "what if" but I still find it impressive.
@patroklos: Hmm, well that last one really depends on if you find breaking sentinels is impressive (considering how many of them theres been over the years and how they've all ended up broken).
That said, I did ask that question to see if DP blowing up a star really is the pinnacle of what she's actually done.
@outside_85: If you read the Dark Phoenix Saga you'd know that she didn't only, blow up a star. She ate the entire solar system. And if she would've lived instead of killing herself, because no one was able to stop her, in The Dark Phoenix Saga, she would've destroyed the Universe, as shown in "what if phoenix had lived". And sentinels are a force to be reckoned with, haven't you read "Days of Future Past"? And she killed an army of those not just one of them. She surpassed Firelord's power, and it has been reckoned that she is as powerful as Galactus himself, and she has many other feats too. Go read "Dark Phoenix Saga" and "The Phoenix Saga". Jean has had dozens of solar systems and a universe for lunch. With that said Dark Phoenix obviously takes the cake on this one; because she's a near limitless cosmic entity. That being said she has complete control of matter at a sub-atomic level, she'll just think of ripping Dark Raven into shreds, and it'll happen. Raven has no feats as impressive as Phoenix. Phoenix went to the afterlife then came back, she healed the M'Krann Crystal, and in an alt. universe (which is what would've happened had Jean not killed herself) she destroyed the whole universe, and those are just some of her feats, she has plenty. Hence why people vote Phoenix. And as the previous poster mentioned, based on your own logic what Uatu, another cosmic entity, also has a more powerful account of Phoenix/Dark Phoenix than what was said about Dark Raven.
@patroklos: You should read the DPS a little more closely, Jean only 'ate' part of the star which caused it to go nova which then annihilated the rest of the system.
DofP... honestly I couldn't get into it. And that still doesn't really counter that all sentinels (save Nimrod and Master Mold) all end up in a billion pieces once they engage the X-Men.
Also, if you look at my age old posts further up the page, you will notice I am not disputing DP has better proven feats and that I am fairly certain that based on those Raven would loose. What I am continuing to do is work with a theoretical scenario with a Raven that just never appeared on page. (because it's the only way I can really see the point of not calling the mods to lock this thread as a mismatch)
The scan I attached of the demon's claim towards Raven, that is possibly her actual power-level, because her dad could level universes even when at weakest. The thing is though, even when Raven has gone completely south, she is not going to fly off an level a planet or a star, because she has no real reason to do so (unlike the Phoenix that needs the fuel). At any other time however, Raven suppresses the lion-share of her powers out of feat of joining the dark side... if Jean had done the same she might still be alive :)
@outside_85: Jean was brainwashed, and she later came back, she was Dark Phoenix only one time, and when she did come back she had it in complete control, the Phoenix didn't take over her. So your argument that had Jean done the same thing as Raven she'd still be alive is invalid, for Jean's latest death has nothing to do with her ability to control the force. Actually she had mastered the force so well that she became one with the force, White Phoenix of the Crown. And again, based on your standards Jean is still beyond more powerful because Jean has already destroyed universes, and based on what's said about Jean by Uatu and Galactus himself, she's been highly noted, to a further extent than Raven/Dark raven. Well, I posted the scan on The Dark Phoenix Saga, and it doesn't say she only ate part of the star. Everyone's voting Phoenix so that should give you a hint that this is a mismatch regardless of your already proven otherwise premises.
@patroklos: Not really as it was her lack of control that resulted in her first death, the HFC didn't want Jean to go completely crazy, but she did.
And your problem is that WPOTC is not the one being used here, it's is specifically the Dark Phoenix which can and has already been beaten, so it's not like it's impossible.
And while I don't know what version Galactus was talking about, he apparently didn't have any trouble ripping it out of Rachel who had it for years on end. Plus Galactus is by feats only a mote of dust compared to Trigon. :)
@outside_85: Dark Phoenix hasn't lost a battle. She killed herself every time and fought against the Phoenix force to let herself be defeated, but Dark Phoenix hasn't lost. Perhaps Dark Phoenix Cyclops has, but not Jean who is vastly more powerful than Cyclops. She's even regarded in AoA as the "Mutant Alpha" even without the Phoenix force Jean has vast power. In the dark Phoenix saga, Jean didn't lose a battle, she fought against Phoenix to give Xavier the upper hand, which he acknowledges, and she kills herself. In Phoenix endsong she fights against the Phoenix too, and begs Logan to kill her and goes as far as to place his hand on her heart so he could do so, but she wasn't fighting Logan. So dark Phoenix Jean hasn't lost a battle.
Yep, he tried to rip the force out of Rachel, but suddenly saw the stars began to die. And so would he eventually because the Phoenix force is existence itself too. :) And Rachel defeated Galactus. And Rachel as Phoenix wasn't as powerful as Jean. The Beyonder set Rachel to the level of Jean's power as Phoenix and took back the power afterwards. And Jean took the Phoenix away from Rachel as she has been calling back the pieces of the force, to the white hot room, so she can become whole once again.
Either way, if you want to bring Trigon to this I'll bring WPOTC to this too. And your problem is that you bring other feats and other characters like Rachel, who has nothing to do with this. I brought in galactus and uatu to use your own argument against to as to who acknowledges Jean's power, which was the base of your original argument; which LordofAllHumans already disproved, and no one agrees with you.
@patroklos: Except to herself, leading to her demise on several occasions. And even with her vast powers, Magneto still managed to kill her by being sneaky and having a special helmet.
Which still makes Galactus the more powerful, the only reason he stopped was because he realized he wasn't meant to kill the entire universe.
Rachels has as much to do with this as Hal Jordan does to John Steward, they wield the same item, are capable of exactly the same things with it, but approach using it differently.
READ MY FIRST STATEMENT FOR GODS SAKE! I HAVE NEVER SAID NORMAL RAVEN WON THIS! HOW HARD IS IT TO UNDERSTAND?!
@outside_85: Leading to her demise? Not really she always came back, and actually she is still existence. Perhaps not physically as a human, but she transcended to become one with the Phoenix, and she's now a Cosmic Entity, residing in the White Hot Room with virtual omnipotence as White Phoenix of the Crown. So she's probably better off dead as a cosmic entity, than a regular human. Jean had to die in order to know the Phoenix force and be able to become one with it. That wasn't Magneto, it was Xorn, and it was Green Phoenix; and if you ever read "Here Comes Tomorrow" you'd know that it had to happen in order for Jean to be able to disinfect the universe. And so she could evolve to become one with the Phoenix force, known as White Phoenix of the Crown. And if we're going to ignore the retcons and say that Magneto killed her not Xorn, then lets go back to the Dark Phoenix Saga (pre-retcon) Jean was named as the second most powerful after the one above all. And I'm sure since the retcon and other characters we don't generally agree to that. But again a lot of people love cherry-picking retcons.
No, Phoenix is above galactus, this has already been debated on comic vine. Without Phoenix there's no Galactus. The marvel universe will die along with him. Phoenix is creation and destruction and existence itself. And no, Rachel doesn't have anything to do with this, because Rachel was at a completely different level than Jean. Rachel never reached Jean's level of power as Phoenix.
Read my statement for god sake, this is a mismatch by every standard and everyone agrees! The mods should just lock this thread.
Leading to her demise? Not really she always came back, and actually she is still existence. Perhaps not physically as a human, but she transcended to become one with the Phoenix, and she's now a Cosmic Entity, residing in the White Hot Room with virtual omnipotence as White Phoenix of the Crown.
So she's probably better off dead as a cosmic entity, than a regular human. Jean had to die in order to know the Phoenix force and be able to become one with it. That wasn't Magneto, it was Xorn, and it was Green Phoenix; and if you ever read "Here Comes Tomorrow" you'd know that it had to happen in order for Jean to be able to disinfect the universe.
And so she could evolve to become one with the Phoenix force, known as White Phoenix of the Crown. And if we're going to ignore the retcons and say that Magneto killed her not Xorn, then lets go back to the Dark Phoenix Saga (pre-retcon) Jean was named as the second most powerful after the one above all. And I'm sure since the retcon and other characters we don't generally agree to that. But again a lot of people love cherry-picking retconns.
No, Phoenix is above galactus, this has already been debated on comic vine. Without Phoenix there's no Galactus. The marvel universe will die along with him. Phoenix is creation and destruction and existence itself. And no, Rachel doesn't have anything to do with this, because Rachel was at a completely different level than Jean. Rachel never reached Jean's level of power as Phoenix.
Read my statement for god sake, this is a mismatch by every standard and everyone agrees! The mods should just lock this thread.
AKA: Dead, what you are describing is no different than someone's soul ascending to heaven or where ever they go. Plus its in the description of the white hot room, everyone is born there and they return when they die.
Magneto was Xorn under the influence of Sublime, perhaps not with the approval of Morrison, but that is whats on the paper. (And before you ask, I do have the 'Ultimate Collection' of Morrisons X-men work.)
I would rather go with the dozen or so individuals thats displayed more power than DP did. Yes, she might have been said to be that powerful, by a 3rd person narrator who I think is about as useful as a glass of water against a forest fire, but she never showed it back then.
Phoenix Force is Phoenix Force, they have the same power, only difference is if and how they use it. And if Phoenix was above Galactus, the wouldn't have been able to do what he did.
Then please tell me why you bothered engaging me in the first place when every statement I have made regarding Raven beyond the first has been about the untapped potential she has in regards to power? AKA Pure Speculation.
@outside_85: I'm really getting tired of proving otherwise over and over. Phoenix force is above galactus she had him to the palm of her hands. Secondly wrong not everyone goes to the white hot room once they die. *sight* let's just begin with you don't even know who goes to the white hot room.
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