@A Touch of Class (ATC): not all of the PF maybe a fraction of it but not all of it eternity and galactus have both admitted to being inferior to the PF but I am tired and it is late so I will be happy to continue this in the morrning
" @A Touch of Class (ATC): not all of the PF maybe a fraction of it but not all of it eternity and galactus have both admitted to being inferior to the PF but I am tired and it is late so I will be happy to continue this in the morrning "
Neither have ever stated inferiority to Phoenix :D That's comedy!
@A Touch of Class (ATC): i have to commend you for flawlessly dissecting each scenarios.. but if you would go back since the creation of the energy matrix, it has always been Necrom's plan and if was not for Feron which was then served as the Phoenix avatar, Necrom would have succeeded.. but Necrom then dropped his quest to control the energy matrix for he discovered that the Phoenix Force can endow him with more power than the energy matrix.. not to mention that the Phoenix itself was the reason for the creation of the energy matrix.. for it could have never come to be if not for the Phoenix.. true it was the energy from the matrix itself which was used to restore the filaments in every plane but the travel to each reality to another was through Rachel's help.. also it was said that the convergence have started since the creation of the energy matrix by the Phoenix? also, if Merlyn was that powerful with the energy matrix, then why would he be afraid of Necrom? so in context, if a twisted Phoenix avatar re-created such feat once again, only this time intentionally converging all realities, then he is capable to compressing all alternate realities into convergence and thus destroying the Multiverse.. and Merlyn is basically a parasite who feeds of the labor of others.. though i have to give him props for jumping into the energy matrix after Feron created it.. so all in all, merlyn's powers are spawned from the gracious actions of the Phoenix Force..
as for you saying that the Phoenix was defeated by the Ultra Force and the X-Men, i would politely inquire if you have read the comics.. you see, Phoenix Resurrection: Genesis and Revelations starts of with the host less flying in the cosmos when suddenly a portal opened and it was transported to the Ultraverse.. the X-men then arrived to the Ultraverse courtesy of Gateway.. when they arrived there they saw the Phoenix Force as it was impaled by an energy beam that connects the two alien shape ship from Earth and the Sun.. the sentient alien ship used the energy of the Phoenix to reunite itself.. the X-Men the Phoenix cried in pain as its energy is absorbed.. though weaken it still manged to free itself and made Prime its host.. then it left prime and sought out another host, which was Amber Hunt, the key player in this battle.. and by virtue of being a host of the Phoenix Force, and echo of its power is bestowed to whomsoever served as its vessel.. and with that power and her deep connection with the alien ship, she amplified Gate's power to open a portal to another timeline..
Amber hunt successfully teleported the phoenix Force to a different timeline which was later revealed to be the Ultraverse itself in its infancy, and it was the Phoenix Force which caused the crash of the alien ship to Earth which later on caused the evolution of its sentient life of acquire superpowers..
plus you have neglected the fact that the Phoenix Force in its raw Firebird form has no way of wielding its awesome power.. it needs an avatar to act.. it is not like Eternity or the other abstracts which uses an M-Body to manifest before inferior creatures.. the Phoenix in this form is nothing more but a sitting duck vulnerable to attack, can feel pain and even possibly shattered into billions of pieces.. but even that is irrelevant, for the Phoenix as its name suggest is immortal in all its intents and purposes.. even after its "death" it will just resurrects itself once more.. there is just no way of permanently killing the Phoenix, it was even stated during the Ultraverse crossover.. the power of the Phoenix must not be based on its feat as a host-less creature, but rather on the feats displayed by its avatars for it is them who wields the power of the Phoenix for any purpose they desire.. also take note that the feat of an avatar greatly varies from each other.. it will all go down on their own experience of wielding the force and how much it given to them.. an experienced avatar who wields a fraction may prove to be more powerful that an inexperienced one possessing the entire force..
i find it absurd yet admirable for you to continuously saying that the Phoenix is just a universal force.. Marvel itself have acknowledge the Phoenix as a Multiversal/Omniversal entity capable of Multiversal feat.. and you are you to question that.. even the Living Tribunal himself have attested of the Phoenix's multiversal power..
Celestials are superior to the Phoenix Force...0_0 "
again, a fallacious statement without any factual evidence.. Jean destroying Arishem's hand is a proof the Phoenix is far superior than any celestial either on power levels or semantics..
not all of the PF maybe a fraction of it but not all of it eternity and galactus have both admitted to being inferior to the PF but I am tired and it is late so I will be happy to continue this in the morrning "
Neither have ever stated inferiority to Phoenix :D That's comedy! "
Eternity himself has come and go.. as the universe itself in not forever.. the time will come when the Universe will come to an end once again.. similar on how the previous version of Eternity at the end of the previous creation merged with Galan that resulted to Galactus and the creation of another Big Bang with its current versions of Eternity.. the Phoenix is the resurrection force of the universe which ensures a new creation after the destruction.. it has been described as the very passion of creation and also as the Big Bang itself.. as Galactus have said before, the Universe is finite.. Eternity, along with Infinity is the Universe itself.. supreme to all except for the Living Tribunal.. the Living Tribunal is the sole judge of the physical universe, meaning he is supreme to none except for the creator himself.. and where does the Phoenix stand in this hierarchy? the answer is.. None.
it is because the Phoenix is not an entity of the physical universe.. its domain is the realm of the Spirit and Imagination.. a realm they call, a higher plane of existence.. it is beyond the restrictions of time and space, and of mortality and nothingness; the four aspects that comprise the very fabric of the physical reality.. the Phoenix in its true form is not the Firebird creature it usually portrays.. if you would recall, it only took that guise after Feron touched its mind.. it true form in its purest manner is a force of untold history.. a primal force once dubbed by Uatu the Watcher, Second only to that of the Creator..
plus it was stated on Jean Grey's bio that the extent of her powers after being one with the force is still unrevealed but she is capable of total atomic control of a universe.. it was stated before that she can create her own universe and be God.. but fully understanding the true nature of the power she holds, she understands what she must do and the role she must play in the scheme of things.. a role that would probably revealed in the near future..
"Goblin Force solos, it consumed both the Phoenix Force and Galactus. "
Didn't consume Galactus it beat Galactus. Goblin Force is an overrated random alternate universe nobody that didn't even take down the Phoenix Force, at best a damn avatar of it for obvious reasons. "
The Goblin Force devoured the prime embodiment of the Phoenix Force, and the 5th Host of Celestials defeated the combined might of the Goblin Force/Phoenix Force & Galactus. This was in the 616 Reality, not in Mutant X. We know this because Uatu is a 616 character, and he was talking about the early Universe as a whole, meaning all of creation, and not any specific reality. So yes, it was the embodiment of the Phoenix Force and the original Galactus that got wrecked by the Goblin Force.
Verified On-Panel: "We are the Watchers, we observe, we Know that which the Goblin Entity is capable of,We were there, at the Birth of the Universe, and witnessed the Goblin Entity begin, watched as the blight of the Goblin Entity spread across the ever expanding Universe, and threat Creation itself" "
Theres absolutely no evidence that the Goblin Force existed outside the one universe. As far as 616 is concered it is some random craptastic nobody that got beat in a completely different universe. Uatu himself is a character you have throughout the multiverse, hell Planet-Z Uatu was narrating MZ Return # 2 I believe. Just because It's Uatu talking, doesn't exactly always confirm it's him from 616, much less any events he's talking about ever occuring in 616. That and if the Phoenix Force was devoured, the countless avatars losing their powers across the multiverse or the very dissapearance of the entity itself from said universes would have raised eyebrows. I mean killing guys like Mephisto's supposed to be a big deal for the universe, so yeah it's going to be noticed. "
Uatu states that it is creation itself that is in jeopardy. Creation started from the prime Reality (616). Also, as for the story applying to a single Universe ...that's ridiculous when the Goblin Force was out to conquer the Omniverse:
" @A Touch of Class (ATC): i have to commend you for flawlessly dissecting each scenarios.. but if you would go back since the creation of the energy matrix, it has always been Necrom's plan and if was not for Feron which was then served as the Phoenix avatar, Necrom would have succeeded.. but Necrom then dropped his quest to control the energy matrix for he discovered that the Phoenix Force can endow him with more power than the energy matrix.. not to mention that the Phoenix itself was the reason for the creation of the energy matrix.. for it could have never come to be if not for the Phoenix.. true it was the energy from the matrix itself which was used to restore the filaments in every plane but the travel to each reality to another was through Rachel's help.. also it was said that the convergence have started since the creation of the energy matrix by the Phoenix? also, if Merlyn was that powerful with the energy matrix, then why would he be afraid of Necrom? so in context, if a twisted Phoenix avatar re-created such feat once again, only this time intentionally converging all realities, then he is capable to compressing all alternate realities into convergence and thus destroying the Multiverse.. and Merlyn is basically a parasite who feeds of the labor of others.. though i have to give him props for jumping into the energy matrix after Feron created it.. so all in all, merlyn's powers are spawned from the gracious actions of the Phoenix Force..
as for you saying that the Phoenix was defeated by the Ultra Force and the X-Men, i would politely inquire if you have read the comics.. you see, Phoenix Resurrection: Genesis and Revelations starts of with the host less flying in the cosmos when suddenly a portal opened and it was transported to the Ultraverse.. the X-men then arrived to the Ultraverse courtesy of Gateway.. when they arrived there they saw the Phoenix Force as it was impaled by an energy beam that connects the two alien shape ship from Earth and the Sun.. the sentient alien ship used the energy of the Phoenix to reunite itself.. the X-Men the Phoenix cried in pain as its energy is absorbed.. though weaken it still manged to free itself and made Prime its host.. then it left prime and sought out another host, which was Amber Hunt, the key player in this battle.. and by virtue of being a host of the Phoenix Force, and echo of its power is bestowed to whomsoever served as its vessel.. and with that power and her deep connection with the alien ship, she amplified Gate's power to open a portal to another timeline..
Amber hunt successfully teleported the phoenix Force to a different timeline which was later revealed to be the Ultraverse itself in its infancy, and it was the Phoenix Force which caused the crash of the alien ship to Earth which later on caused the evolution of its sentient life of acquire superpowers..
plus you have neglected the fact that the Phoenix Force in its raw Firebird form has no way of wielding its awesome power.. it needs an avatar to act.. it is not like Eternity or the other abstracts which uses an M-Body to manifest before inferior creatures.. the Phoenix in this form is nothing more but a sitting duck vulnerable to attack, can feel pain and even possibly shattered into billions of pieces.. but even that is irrelevant, for the Phoenix as its name suggest is immortal in all its intents and purposes.. even after its "death" it will just resurrects itself once more.. there is just no way of permanently killing the Phoenix, it was even stated during the Ultraverse crossover.. the power of the Phoenix must not be based on its feat as a host-less creature, but rather on the feats displayed by its avatars for it is them who wields the power of the Phoenix for any purpose they desire.. also take note that the feat of an avatar greatly varies from each other.. it will all go down on their own experience of wielding the force and how much it given to them.. an experienced avatar who wields a fraction may prove to be more powerful that an inexperienced one possessing the entire force..
i find it absurd yet admirable for you to continuously saying that the Phoenix is just a universal force.. Marvel itself have acknowledge the Phoenix as a Multiversal/Omniversal entity capable of Multiversal feat.. and you are you to question that.. even the Living Tribunal himself have attested of the Phoenix's multiversal power..
Celestials are superior to the Phoenix Force...0_0 "
again, a fallacious statement without any factual evidence.. Jean destroying Arishem's hand is a proof the Phoenix is far superior than any celestial either on power levels or semantics..
not all of the PF maybe a fraction of it but not all of it eternity and galactus have both admitted to being inferior to the PF but I am tired and it is late so I will be happy to continue this in the morrning "
Neither have ever stated inferiority to Phoenix :D That's comedy! "
Eternity himself has come and go.. as the universe itself in not forever.. the time will come when the Universe will come to an end once again.. similar on how the previous version of Eternity at the end of the previous creation merged with Galan that resulted to Galactus and the creation of another Big Bang with its current versions of Eternity.. the Phoenix is the resurrection force of the universe which ensures a new creation after the destruction.. it has been described as the very passion of creation and also as the Big Bang itself.. as Galactus have said before, the Universe is finite.. Eternity, along with Infinity is the Universe itself.. supreme to all except for the Living Tribunal.. the Living Tribunal is the sole judge of the physical universe, meaning he is supreme to none except for the creator himself.. and where does the Phoenix stand in this hierarchy? the answer is.. None.
it is because the Phoenix is not an entity of the physical universe.. its domain is the realm of the Spirit and Imagination.. a realm they call, a higher plane of existence.. it is beyond the restrictions of time and space, and of mortality and nothingness; the four aspects that comprise the very fabric of the physical reality.. the Phoenix in its true form is not the Firebird creature it usually portrays.. if you would recall, it only took that guise after Feron touched its mind.. it true form in its purest manner is a force of untold history.. a primal force once dubbed by Uatu the Watcher, Second only to that of the Creator.. plus it was stated on Jean Grey's bio that the extent of her powers after being one with the force is still unrevealed but she is capable of total atomic control of a universe.. it was stated before that she can create her own universe and be God.. but fully understanding the true nature of the power she holds, she understands what she must do and the role she must play in the scheme of things.. a role that would probably revealed in the near future.. "
That scan with Phoenix and LT is from a non-canon 'what if' and only the Living Tribunal's 'what-if' appearances are canon, not Phoenix's.
Phoenix is the Big Bang? Phoenix is beyond Eternity? I hope you're just entertaining me with sarcasm, lord_oraculous016.
Nothing, anywhere in comics does it say that the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang. It doesn't even hint at the idea. It is very literally stated by the actual Phoenix Force that it was born in the Big Bang, not the other way around. It says, "this is how I came into being".
She was reborn from the Big Bang like all the abstracts, who remain constant throughout any Universe.
Now let's take a look at this:
Now, look at this scan with Galactus, which I am sure you must have seen before. He is talking about Phoenix being the life force of life. Not Reality! The Phoenix's Reality/Life depends on the existence of living things, because the Phoenix receives its power from said place. In other words, Phoenix is not at all self-sufficient even if it sustains the stars, because it is actually the living beings that sustain the stars, because they sustain the Phoenix Force.
Anyway, Galactus replies to Phoenix after she claims to be the embodiment of all life. He clearly tells her that she is wrong!
["You're an expression of the universal life force, NOT a well spring !'" ]
He's talking about the life force of LIFE! The Phoenix Force's bio even states: (excerpt from official Marvel Handbook - Phoenix Force - bio 2005): "The PF is a manifestation of the prime universal life force of life! Derived from the psyches of all living beings"
The very same official handbook states that Phoenix is nothing but another child of the Universe. It is not the Universe's creator or anything even alluding to such. "The Phoenix Force is a child of the Universe"
This bio explicitly declares that Phoenix was "reborn from the cosmic fires of the Big Bang." Well, so was Galactus, who never really died like Phoenix, and everything else in the Marvel Universe was created from the same fires. It was the Alien Entity that created and even held the spark setting all of it off in his hand, before Phoenix was even reborn.
Phoenix herself states she is sustained by Life's cycle, that means that her power and existence (even in its Natural State as Galactus points out) is dependent upon living creatures. The life-force of Reality is Eternity/Infinity who both make up time and space. Phoenix operates within Eternity/Infinity, and like the Phoenix Force's bio illustrates, Phoenix is nothing but a child of Eternity/Infinity.
@A Touch of Class (ATC): once again your petty attempt to demean me has failed you.. let me break this down to you..
The Phoenix is an IMMORTAL, INDESTRUCTIBLE and MUTABLE manifestation of the Prime Universal Force of Life - the Phoenix is the embodiment of Life.. likewise, it share all the characteristics of what defines life.. Life is IMMORTAL, not in a conventional way of its definition, but rather it pertains to which has no end.. in all realities, even in ours, Life has no definite origins.. organic life sprang out all of a sudden from and endless ocean of inorganic substance.. so by virtue of logic, something that technically has no beginning, also has no end.. in order words, life will find a way.. Life is INDESTRUCTIBLE.. it is because of the sole reason life is a force, and you cannot for intents and purposes destroy a force.. this has been displayed by the Phoenix many times, like when it was shattered into billions of pieces.. yes it did shattered, but you cannot deny the fact the it still exist.. Life is MUTABLE.. this clearly defines the connection of life and evolution.. life is subjected to change and with that idea comes the eternal words that life cannot be contained.. many have tried containing life, but in the end, nature itself finds a way.. it is a form of Deus ex Machina.. same goes for when the Scarlet Witch altered reality and halted the evolution of sentient life by preventing mutation.. it was later revealed that new mutants were born all with connections to the return of the Messiah..
derived from the psyches of all living beings - it was said on X-Men: Prelude to the Second Coming that the Phoenix is the manifestation of the psyches of all the sentient beings in the Multiverse.. but this fact doesn't mean the Phoenix is dependent on the life force of living beings.. for she is the force of life itself..
Galactus told Phoenix about where she "steal" her powers.. Phoenix replied that she is the embodiment of life and that she does not not need to steal.. Galactus answered back,
"You're an expression of the universal life force, not a well spring..'" Galactus replied.. and it is here were you got confused..
In its natural state, this life-cycle is enough to sustain the Force - contrary to what you have said, it is not the life force or the psyches of living beings which sustains the Phoenix Force.. what really sustains the Phoenix is the endless cycle of life and death, of creation and destruction.. as she said, she is sustained by LIFE'S FIERY CYCLE..
Galactus supported this idea.. and later said, "In your natural state perhaps.. but it is not sufficient to maintain your activities in this plane.."
However, in order to manifest itself on the physical plane, the Force must tap into the near limitless source of energy provided by life-force reserved for future generations, thus denying them existence - this what i mean.. the Phoenix wasn't intended to reside in the physical plane.. the domain of the Phoenix is the realm of the Spirit and Imagination, a plane where the essence of Time and Space don't apply.. a real beyond what we call REALITY.. if it chooses to manifest itself into the physical universe, it needs to tap into the limitless source of energy intended for the unborn.. and thus its mere presence in the physical plane denies countless innocent souls the change to exist..
like what Galactus told her.. "What price has the Universe paid to indulge your vain glory? What life has perished so that you may prance and strut among lesser beings in search of adoration?"..
it is also the time when the Phoenix is at its most vulnerable.. when in manifest into the physical plane and takes the guise of its famous Firebird from, it is composed of pure cosmic energy.. and energy itself is vulnerable to attacks from weapons of sufficient power as well as absorption by beings that hungers for cosmic energy..
the Phoenix may be a manifestation of all the psyches of all living beings.. but it is certainly not the reason for its creation.. if you can remember, the Phoenix was born BETWEEN STATES OF BEING.. it pertains to the line that signifies the boundaries of nothingness and creation.. so by virtue of logic, it could not have been spawned from the minds of sentient life.. it was proven on panel and on its bio..
being called the "Child of the Universe" doesn't mean the Phoenix is nothing but just a mere child of Eternity/Infinity, but rather because it was spawned again within and alongside the Universe itself.. like what the scan you posted earlier suggest.. after the collapse of the previous reality, a new took place.. the Phoenix is referred to as "the spark that gave life to the Universe and the flame that will ultimately destroy it.." after the Phoenix saved all life from eternal damnation, it was reborn from the flames of the Big Bang.. it may never be explicitly depicted as what initiated creation, but remember, what is the Phoenix in its true form.. yes, a FORCE.. it may not be depicted as an entity, but nevertheless i has been proven to be the force of creation itself.. that is why Reed Richards referred the Phoenix Force as the Big Bang..
and it was been referred to as such ever since its first appearance in comics..
Eternity embodies Time while Infinity embodies Space.. Time and Space are concepts applied on the physical universe.. Space is the dimension of such reality and Time is the concept which defines the length and duration of an existence.. such concepts are of no importance in the realm of the spirit and imagination, which is the domain of the Phoenix.. also, it must be noted that Eternity and Infinity encompass all that exist in the temporal and spatial axis of the physical Universe.. making them the Universe personified.. the Universe itself is what comprise what we call the Human or Physical Reality.. and all of this is beyond the Phoenix.. and contrary to what you said, the Phoenix does NOT operate in the physical reality.. it affects and influence the physical universe in her own domain by allocating the force of life and creation, as well as to serve as the judge of evolution .. Jean Grey herself being one with the primal force is capable of sub-atomically controlling the entire physical universe.. it has been proven on panel as well as in her bio..
the Phoenix is probably the most unique of all Marvel abstracts.. she is in a league of her own.. she is above the concerns of the physical universe.. but what separates the White Phoenix of the Crown from everyone else is, she is tainted with a human heart.. a human heart which knows the meaning of love and compassion.. she is practically a Goddess with all the power of Creation, with the Human compassion to use it properly..
i say phoenix wins cause sheif you see the picture it looked like a surpirse attsck when the gf beated her. and the phoenix out ranks the other one cause it is eqivlent to a universe phoenix not the entire phoenix same with gf plus gf before she was sheild apenrlty relied on sneack attacks .
I don't even understand what the Phoenix Force is doing here, she is the most powerful charecter in MU second only to TOAA.
The Force itself is what created the MU and will one day make sure it's distruction, Goblin Force on the other hand is powerful entity but nothing to the likes of PF.
It's devouring of a fraction power of the Phoenix Force on an none-cannon universe wasn't even a cannon comic. So it isn't true and there is something off about the GF if u really give it a thought.
It has the same powers as the PF but on the level of a universal scale higher than Galactus tho. I personally think that GF is the Phoenix gone evil/dark, but then shouldn't it be like darkflaming bird or something?
Well too confusing on it's form theory but i think the PF has something to do with the existence of the GF, just like the PF, th GF is the nexus of all psionic energy, powerful mental abilities etc.
But the actual Phoenix Force is in the WHR and all the firebird we see across the multiverse is it's fractions of power which themself btw limits their powers in order to insure their hosts does not go all supernova and destroy their whole universes
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