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Edited 1 year, 3 months ago

Poll: Phoenix Force vs Emotional Entities (51 votes)

Phoenix Force 33%
Emotional Entities 61%

In the amglam universe, each of these beings has 1 year to find the most suitable host before entering this battle. takes place in crowded city, where plenty of fear can be fed upon.

Can the entities that empower the the lantern corps defeat the Phoenix Force?

#1 Edited by New_World_Order (12952 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think the Phoenix Force has a chance against all of them together.

#2 Posted by gumflabica (2203 posts) - - Show Bio

@thundergodswrath: i personally think that phoenix force has a good chance here, especially if it has time to find a super powerful amglam telepath to be it's host. J'onn the Phoenix!

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#3 Posted by New_World_Order (12952 posts) - - Show Bio

@thundergodswrath: i personally think that phoenix force has a good chance here, especially if it has time to find a super powerful amglam telepath to be it's host. J'onn the Phoenix!

Haha, true.

#4 Posted by dondave (36124 posts) - - Show Bio

@gumflabica: Are Nekron and The White Entity involved?

#5 Posted by AllStarSuperman (21474 posts) - - Show Bio

Entity's overwhelm phoenix.

#6 Posted by Roddy010 (5196 posts) - - Show Bio

What feats do the Entities have that put them above Phoenix? I'm no Lantern expert.

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#7 Posted by comic_book_fan (5541 posts) - - Show Bio

or j'onn and Xavier could merge then that guy gets the phoenix amp.

#8 Posted by Darksider555 (399 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010 said:

What feats do the Entities have that put them above Phoenix? I'm no Lantern expert.

well it really depeneds on the entity itself. For instance Adaras ( the hope embodiment) host is different than say Parallax (fear embodiment). But given the fact that all seven emotions create the white light of creation (the very force that created life , well in DC at least) and plus connectivity to every living being feeling a particular emotion it safe to say that the Phoenix has its work cut out for it .

#9 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010 said:

What feats do the Entities have that put them above Phoenix? I'm no Lantern expert.

The Entities by itself are powerless, it's assumed that all Entities have the same degree of powerful, and only the host is the limitation.

The Entities that have the most feats is Hal Jordan, Zero Hour Parallax, who at peak is a universe buster.

Kyle as Ion potentially is a universal-level reality warper (according to Spectre), though he never show that he can do it yet. Although most of the feats Ion have shown is capability to create construct more powerful than any, if not most Lanterns.

I've seen Butcher being possessed by a guy who readers probably don't care about, and its power is nothing average Red Lanterns couldn't do like creating solid red light weapons.

#10 Posted by Roddy010 (5196 posts) - - Show Bio

@angryhulks: From what you're telling me this would be a stalemate because Phoenix has both universal and multiversal feats.

@roddy010 said:

What feats do the Entities have that put them above Phoenix? I'm no Lantern expert.

well it really depeneds on the entity itself. For instance Adaras ( the hope embodiment) host is different than say Parallax (fear embodiment). But given the fact that all seven emotions create the white light of creation (the very force that created life , well in DC at least) and plus connectivity to every living being feeling a particular emotion it safe to say that the Phoenix has its work cut out for it .

Interesting thanks for the information. I doubt that the light of Creation would do anything to Phoenix though. (If anything it may empower the force) Phoenix is the nexus of ALL psionic energy (that was, is and will be) which also includes each emotion. I'd say that The Source would be DC's Phoenix.

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#11 Posted by Darksider555 (399 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010 said:

@angryhulks: From what you're telling me this would be a stalemate because Phoenix has both universal and multiversal feats.

@darksider555 said:

@roddy010 said:

What feats do the Entities have that put them above Phoenix? I'm no Lantern expert.

well it really depeneds on the entity itself. For instance Adaras ( the hope embodiment) host is different than say Parallax (fear embodiment). But given the fact that all seven emotions create the white light of creation (the very force that created life , well in DC at least) and plus connectivity to every living being feeling a particular emotion it safe to say that the Phoenix has its work cut out for it .

Interesting thanks for the information. I doubt that the light of Creation would do anything to Phoenix though. (If anything it may empower the force) Phoenix is the nexus of ALL psionic energy (that was, is and will be) which also includes each emotion. I'd say that The Source would be DC's Phoenix.

i just dont get one thing about the Phoenix Force... Why does it need a host?? It has shown it self capable of sustaining itself without a host... ah plot cliches...

#12 Edited by lord_oraculous016 (9282 posts) - - Show Bio

wasn't this thread done before?

#13 Posted by Roddy010 (5196 posts) - - Show Bio

@darksider555: Lol It likes having a human host mainly because of the sensations that humans feel. As a cosmic force it doesn't have the luxury to "feel" like we do.

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#14 Edited by Darksider555 (399 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010 said:

@darksider555: Lol It likes having a human host mainly because of the sensations that humans feel. As a cosmic force it doesn't have the luxury to "feel" like we do.

ironic isnt it? cosmic entities envy us because of our morality and emotions and we envy them for there power...

#15 Posted by Roddy010 (5196 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010 said:

@darksider555: Lol It likes having a human host mainly because of the sensations that humans feel. As a cosmic force it doesn't have the luxury to "feel" like we do.

ironic isnt it? cosmic entities envy us because of our morality and emotions and we envy them for there power...

lol tis' a sad life for the cosmic beings But just imagine the destruction from all the Phoenixes and Lanterns running around. I'd be the first in line to receive my upgrade. :P

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#16 Edited by Darksider555 (399 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010 said:

@darksider555 said:

@roddy010 said:

@darksider555: Lol It likes having a human host mainly because of the sensations that humans feel. As a cosmic force it doesn't have the luxury to "feel" like we do.

ironic isnt it? cosmic entities envy us because of our morality and emotions and we envy them for there power...

lol tis' a sad life for the cosmic beings But just imagine the destruction from all the Phoenixes and Lanterns running around. I'd be the first in line to receive my upgrade. :P

question: if you could wield a power ring which would it be:

Red ( Rage)

Orange ( Avarice)

Yellow (Fear)

Green (Will)

Blue ( Hope)

Indigo ( Compassion)

Violet ( Love)

???

#17 Posted by Killemall (18513 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord_oraculous016: You are back o_0 havent seen you around in ages man.

@roddy010 said:

@angryhulks: From what you're telling me this would be a stalemate because Phoenix has both universal and multiversal feats.

Could you point me to a multiversal feat from Phoenix? I honestly havent seen one, and the only universal feat i have seen from Phoenix in 616 reality has been of awareness and nothing more.

Its only alternate reality version that has anything beyond universal feat, like 2 What IFs and a whole alternate reality Here Comes Tomorrow, and none of those are multiversal either.

#18 Edited by Roddy010 (5196 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: If I'm not mistaken Jean concealing the M'Kraan crystal (which was said to have the power to destroy the mutliverse) should be considered.

@darksider555: Tough question I think my strongest emotion is Love so I'd go with that one.

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#19 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3597 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd go Orange, because of its abilities and Larfleez being bad ass due to it. Though white or black would do as long as I'm the avatar for the power. :)

#20 Posted by Killemall (18513 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010 said:

@killemall: If I'm not mistaken Jean concealing the M'Kraan crystal (which was said to have the power to destroy the mutliverse) should be considered.

Its hard to interpret that feat has multiversal. She did not tank it or anything. The Crystal has a crack, the energy discharge destroyed a universe called The World and Jean need her fellow X-men to anchor her to the reality in order to seal it.

Also as far as the issue is concerned and preceeding issue the crystal was universal, it was later retconned into being multiversal in power level and perhaps even beyond.

Thats not really a multiversal feat.

#21 Posted by Darksider555 (399 posts) - - Show Bio
@roddy010 said:

@killemall: If I'm not mistaken Jean concealing the M'Kraan crystal (which was said to have the power to destroy the mutliverse) should be considered.

@darksider555: Tough question I think my strongest emotion is Love so I'd go with that one.

coincidently that is my weakest emotion because... I dunno... i have never expirienced true love ,only crushes and as for my emotion it would either be Blue ( hope ) or Red (rage!!!!)

#22 Posted by Roddy010 (5196 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010 said:

@killemall: If I'm not mistaken Jean concealing the M'Kraan crystal (which was said to have the power to destroy the mutliverse) should be considered.

Its hard to interpret that feat has multiversal. She did not tank it or anything. The Crystal has a crack, the energy discharge destroyed a universe called The World and Jean need her fellow X-men to anchor her to the reality in order to seal it.

Also as far as the issue is concerned and preceeding issue the crystal was universal, it was later retconned into being multiversal in power level and perhaps even beyond.

Thats not really a multiversal feat.

The very fact that she could conceal a crack that could destroy a universe (later changed to multiverse) is a formidable show of power. She only needed her fellow X-men to anchor the human form to that reality because she felt it slipping away as she entered the Neutron Galaxy. She then transcended into her energy form and did her work albeit with a bit of strain. But her friends only helped her in spirit Phoenix did the actual work on her own.

This was later retconned to Jean saving the multiverse from destruction. Concealing universal/multiversal destruction is a formidable feat.

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#23 Edited by Roddy010 (5196 posts) - - Show Bio

@darksider555: Awesome Blue and Red are my two favorite colors but if I'd had to pick between the two I'd pick Hope. Rage seems like it would give you a headache after awhile.

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#24 Edited by Killemall (18513 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010 said:

The very fact that she could conceal a crack that could destroy a universe (later changed to multiverse) is a formidable show of power.

The underlined part, yes it does, but it doesnt show anywhere close to multiversal power because she did not overpower the crystal, which was , at that time, universal. She did not match the crystal, but rather healed a crack in the crystal thereby preventing the energy outflow. So its by no means a multiversal.

I dont disagree with this, i disagree with this being anywhere close to multiversal feat.

Could you show me a retcon that says Jean saved the multiverse from destruction? I dont believe i have.

I have however seen a different retcon of M'Kraan Crystal during Adventures of X- men 12, where the context is a bit different, the entire power of M'Kraan Crystal was released that killed the phoenix host, and the phoenix force itself. It was also at that time called the destruction of universe, and the big bang that saw the rebirth of everything, Phoenix Force included followed was shown to be universal. It was that feat that was retconned to being multiverse.

#25 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (3978 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010 said:

The very fact that she could conceal a crack that could destroy a universe (later changed to multiverse) is a formidable show of power.

The underlined part, yes it does, but it doesnt show anywhere close to multiversal power because she did not overpower the crystal, which was , at that time, universal. She did not match the crystal, but rather healed a crack in the crystal thereby preventing the energy outflow. So its by no means a multiversal.

I dont disagree with this, i disagree with this being anywhere close to multiversal feat.

Could you show me a retcon that says Jean saved the multiverse from destruction? I dont believe i have.

I have however seen a different retcon of M'Kraan Crystal during Adventures of X- men 12, where the context is a bit different, the entire power of M'Kraan Crystal was released that killed the phoenix host, and the phoenix force itself. It was also at that time called the destruction of universe, and the big bang that saw the rebirth of everything, Phoenix Force included followed was shown to be universal. It was that feat that was retconned to being multiverse.

I thought AoA came out before Adventures? The crystal was multiversal in AoA and according to Jahf the multiverse was gonna be destroyed because Legion altered time and Jean never became an Xman under Xavier meaning no Phoenix, because there was no Phoenix the crack was never repaired and all universes were in danger, Bishop fixes the timeline, Phoenix does intervene thus saving the multiverse.

#28 Edited by Roddy010 (5196 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: She's was able to conceal and fix an artifact that could destroy a universe/multiverse. Whether it's universal or multiversal it's still a formidable show of power. (which is the point I was trying to make). Yes at that time the power possessed by the crystal was universal. The AoA story arc and the Official Handbook stated its power to be Multiversal so even a crack would cause mass destruction on a universal scale at the very least. The Phoenix Saga was never retold (to my knowledge) so retcon was never placed in the story. However the Crystal was referenced in later stories and was stated to contain multiversal power.

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#29 Posted by Roddy010 (5196 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans: It did AoA came out in 1995, while AoX #12 was released in 1997.

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#30 Posted by gumflabica (2203 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave: nope. just the emotional entities.

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#32 Posted by Killemall (18513 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010 said:

@killemall: She's was able to conceal and fix an artifact that could destroy a universe/multiverse. Whether it's universal or multiversal it's still a formidable show of power. (which is the point I was trying to make).

Then thats not what i asked. I am not saying Phoenix is not powerful this is what i asked you.

@lord_oraculous016: You are back o_0 havent seen you around in ages man.

@roddy010 said:

@angryhulks: From what you're telling me this would be a stalemate because Phoenix has both universal and multiversal feats.

Could you point me to a multiversal feat from Phoenix? I honestly havent seen one

Yes at that time the power possessed by the crystal was universal.

Ok.

The AoA story arc and the Official Handbook stated its power to be Multiversal so even a crack would cause mass destruction on a universal scale at the very least.

The destruction caused was on universal scale because even bios after that, says The World was the only universe destroyed, its the potential that could have been bigger still doesnt change the validity of the feat.

Its very hard to somehow see that feat as multiversal, because it clearly isnt.

The Phoenix Saga was never retold (to my knowledge) so retcon was never placed in the story. However the Crystal was referenced in later stories and was stated to contain multiversal power.

Quite the contrary, at least Adventures of X men saga was actually retold on panel, and retold in order to explain the origin of Galactus. That was the time the crystal was stated as multiversal artifact, and the entire power of the crystal was unleased. Like i said there is a difference, when the whole power was unleased the Phoenix Force and the avatar were killed, so that clearly contradicts her power being multiversal, when an actual multiversal destruction no only kills the host but the entire force itself.

#33 Posted by lord_oraculous016 (9282 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord_oraculous016: You are back o_0 havent seen you around in ages man.

yeah.. been really busy and all.. :)

@roddy010 said:

@angryhulks: From what you're telling me this would be a stalemate because Phoenix has both universal and multiversal feats.

Could you point me to a multiversal feat from Phoenix? I honestly havent seen one, and the only universal feat i have seen from Phoenix in 616 reality has been of awareness and nothing more.

we'll there have been a few. There was the creation of an energy matrix by projection a light tower to all existing realities at the same time.. This created an energy matrix, which if abused, can allow someone to compress all existing realities into singularity much like what Necrom tried before.. also, the Living Tribunal itself considered the PF to be multiversal and i remembered Rachel with the power of the PF unknowing merged 2 universes together.. also, as the recent AvX concluded, the PF undid the Scarlet Witch's spell of "No More Mutants" which has been displayed to affected alternate and possible future realities.. Beast even stated during Children's Crusade that Wanda's spell affected the omniverse (debatable, i agree)..

Its only alternate reality version that has anything beyond universal feat, like 2 What IFs and a whole alternate reality Here Comes Tomorrow, and none of those are multiversal either.

On one of those What If's, it was the Living Tribunal which uttered those words.. and we all know that the Living Tribunal is ominiversal, and thus his appearance even in What If's are considered cannons.. plus, the whole HCT thing is cannon, because the WPOTC portrayed there is 616 Jean Grey herself.. and i beg to disagree, but the whole feat done there was clearly multiversal.. Jean took the Earth-15104 reality from the multiverse and cut off its future (meaning the very essence of that alternate reality) making the universe she is holding the prime reality which is 616 (notice how the Phoenix Conciousness is saying that she needs to make a better future.. this means, she needs to do something to the current universe).. many people often point out that Jean only "pushed" Scott to make a better future during that feat, but what many failed to realized is the gravity of what she is doing.. Jean was telekinetically manipulating atoms on a universal scale (this was backed up on the bio in the OHOTMU).. if cutting of a reality from the multiverse and controlling it atom by atom at once is out a multiversal feat, then i don't know what is.. :)

#34 Posted by Killemall (18513 posts) - - Show Bio

yeah.. been really busy and all.. :)

Cool,its nice to have you back man. Sadly we are likely to clash a lot more often in a thread involving elder gods, but i honestly look forward to debating with you on those topic :)

we'll there have been a few.

I have honestly not seen any thus far , but yeah the Wanda's feat was one i never considered, thanks for pointing that out.

The entire feat cant be attributed to the power of Phoenix for several reason:

1. While building a lighthouse, all across the multiverse (i thought it was omniverse but have to check) is impressive, it was not done on a random time. They waited for a special alignment called Interface Alignment to occur, which occurs naturally. It was only when the alignment occured they could project the said lighthouse, its backed by both on panel evidence and bio.

2. Necrom is not just a random host of the phoenix force,he is on his own right a sorcerer supreme, and as such has his own powers, let alone the time he took to do prep. Although he only had the power of anti-phoenix which is a slight portion of Phoenix power, he clearly had his own power set, thats the reason Rachel with 1/2 the phoenix force was clearly struggling against Necrom with a small portion of Phoenix force and had to reduce to plot to finally defeat him.

So given that feat required interface alignment, as well as power of a prep up sorcerer supreme makes it extremely hard to attribute the feat to Phoenix, even made worse given Rachel with 1/2 the phoenix force going all out, managed to only destroy solar system.

I have heard this before, never seen a scan, would you have one (i would prefer an issue number too). Also if i am not wrong its a what if.

This is from one of the Excalibur issues and there is a context involved i believe, which sadly i cant recall at the moment. Do you have the issue number, i know i can add context to it, also i recall 2 universe first merged and then it seperated on its own

HOM Wanda's feat was indeed omniversal in nature, and it was stated as omniversal in Die by the Sword 01. The problem is her reality warping feat is all but universal, that also incomplete within a universe, while it did affect the past and the future, it only affected the potential past and the future of 616.

The Chaos Wave however tore apart the omniverse, now that is genuinely an omniversal feat, but Phoenix did nothing in order to stop that though. It was Meggan who first tapped into the power of Earth, then Otherworld and when that power was still not even she tapped into the power of the Beyond, together with all these power she manage to close the rift , once the Chaos Wave was halted the omniverse healed itself.

Thats still Phoenix force affecting past and future of mutant race.

On one of those What If's, it was the Living Tribunal which uttered those words.. and we all know that the Living Tribunal is ominiversal, and thus his appearance even in What If's are considered cannons..

We are clearly talking about different issue, i was talking more about issues where Phoenix Force destroys its native alternate reality in 2 what ifs. The Living Tribunal instance i have no read and hence cannot comment.

Never said ti wasnt canon though.

The feat was clearly referred to as universal in the issue as well as bio, hard to argue it was multiversal, not to mention Jean had good help there and she was inside white hot room, where the Phoenix avatar are amped.

Could you show me one on panel evidence or bio that suggests the universe she held on her hand became 616?

That certainly doesnt look like the case.

Earth 15104 is a potential future of 616 , which formes an alternate dimension.

She did pluck Earth 15104 from its mega structure, which likely was the vast amount of potential futures of 616 as opposed to a whole multiverse. Even then given she is inside a nexus of all reality, and plucked a reality, i dont see how that makes it any more than a universal feat.

Sorry but i am a little confused on what you are trying to say on the () part, because Here Comes Tomorrow wasnt a good future as it was destined to die, it was orphaned by Jean Action and later erased as a potential future because of what Scott did.

Ok..

She manipulated the universe, or a potential future of 616, atom by atom and extracted the sublime atom, that her real big feat there isnt it. The rest was clearly attributed to Scott, which is shown on panel, backed by bio, as well as writer's commentary.

So that does make it pretty clearly universal feat, done by one of the most powerful Phoenix avatar, in her place of power.

That certainly isnt a multiversal feat, you got to admit, she is in a nexus of all reality, which clearly gives her access to any reality in the multiverse, then from there she picks one universe, that also unintentionally, even then its all but a potential future of 616, perhaps this picture will help:

All she did was pick one of those branches, manipulated it, and push Scott Summers to take an action that prevent that certain branch or future never happened.

Clearly universal if you ask me.

Now this is more of a multiversal feat, post retcon beyonder vs molecule man

Or this weirdest feat from Celestials that appeared quite recently, its multiversal or at the least significantly beyond universal.

#35 Edited by PowerWoman (3344 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: hey,bro,where come from these scan?

never see it

#36 Posted by PowerWoman (3344 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord_oraculous016: wow!!!a long time not see you!!!

I have a BIG question, In the real world the Crown is the beginning point and end of all life and creation. The Divine name of Keter/The Crown is Eheieh (which is rendered as Pure Being,or Presence.). It is the highest divine essence that can possibly be conceived. Beyond it is the Unknowable God. Everything exists in Keter in its archetypical form.The colour used to represent it is brilliant white,both to symbolize burning radiance and the union of all colors of the spectrum. (White Phoenix of Crown)

this right?

#37 Posted by Killemall (18513 posts) - - Show Bio

@powerwoman: Fantastic Four Annual 27. Those are cosmic cube beings, pretty damn powerful.

#38 Posted by PowerWoman (3344 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: this even not pre-beyonder???wow,crazy powerful

#39 Posted by Killemall (18513 posts) - - Show Bio

@powerwoman: No its not pre-retcon Beyonder, who was a lot more powerful than this. In fact in the issue Beyonder is rather easily defeated by Molecule Man (pre-retcon Beyonder won rather easily, and Molecule Man admited Beyonder was a lot more powerful).

Have you watched Avengers movie? Remember the terreract, or the cube Loki used, these guys are being who evolved from the cube. The cosmic cube is like an egg and these guys like chicken. Hence so crazy powerful.

#40 Edited by PowerWoman (3344 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: yes,i wached it,i dont know cosmic cube soooooo powerful

and i found some scan:this is also cosmic cube

look like marvel have different infinite power

#41 Posted by Killemall (18513 posts) - - Show Bio

@powerwoman: Firstly from the bottom , yes marvel does have different infinities as they follow a theory proposed by Greg Cantor, and in his view there are level of infinity.

The concept goes like this.

Infinity 1 x 2 = Infinity 2

Where Infinity 1 and Infinity 2 are 2 different names given to infinity, both of them are infinity but Infinity 2 > Infinity 1, thus forming level of infinity.

Yes both the beings in the scans are cosmic cube beings , one of them is Kubik the other Kosmos and its from Fantastic Four Annual 26, its just that given who much Celestial power level changes from 1 writer to another i dont think that shows a limit in their power level. I mean look at the second scan i posted, Celestial apparently, using only their will, broke one universe into a multiverse, they are therefore the architect of the multiverse.

As per Kubik, here is one feat you might like, Kubik holds an entire universe in his hand and is about to destroy it before he is asked to calm down.

You see a guy in last panel holding Kubik, thats yet another cosmic cube called shaper of the world, he , after getting permission from Living Tribunal created his own solar system.

Notice how in the second scan it says

"Behold those who transact at Transfinite Level of Existence which humankind will not even imagine for tens of thousands of years"

transfinite = beyond infinity, these beings are pretty damn powerful, with Molecule Man there being the most powerful and Beyonder the least powerful (barring Kosmos with whom Beyonder has never fought).

Cosmic cube in marvel universe are very powerful.

#42 Edited by PowerWoman (3344 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!LIke it!!!!!thanks scan!!!

but these scan from which comic?!

#43 Posted by PowerWoman (3344 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: oh.different infinite,so TOAA is..?infinite x infinite? that too hard to think...

#44 Posted by Killemall (18513 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: oh.different infinite,so TOAA is..?infinite x infinite? that too hard to think...

Yes something like that.

And the issue you asked is Avataars Covenants of Shields 01, its not a issue most people have read because its about a new earth called Eurth and its own heroes, all of which were created by Shaper of the World.

#45 Posted by PowerWoman (3344 posts) - - Show Bio
#46 Posted by lord_oraculous016 (9282 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

Cool,its nice to have you back man. Sadly we are likely to clash a lot more often in a thread involving elder gods, but i honestly look forward to debating with you on those topic :)

- Thanks man.. :)

1. While building a lighthouse, all across the multiverse (i thought it was omniverse but have to check) is impressive, it was not done on a random time. They waited for a special alignment called Interface Alignment to occur, which occurs naturally. It was only when the alignment occured they could project the said lighthouse, its backed by both on panel evidence and bio.

2. Necrom is not just a random host of the phoenix force,he is on his own right a sorcerer supreme, and as such has his own powers, let alone the time he took to do prep. Although he only had the power of anti-phoenix which is a slight portion of Phoenix power, he clearly had his own power set, thats the reason Rachel with 1/2 the phoenix force was clearly struggling against Necrom with a small portion of Phoenix force and had to reduce to plot to finally defeat him.

So given that feat required interface alignment, as well as power of a prep up sorcerer supreme makes it extremely hard to attribute the feat to Phoenix, even made worse given Rachel with 1/2 the phoenix force going all out, managed to only destroy solar system.

-

  1. Point taken.. but that doesn't change a fact the feat was a multiversal feat.. it only added more room for debate regarding the matter.. :)
  2. One must remember that possessing the force means you can actually utilize its full power.. remember when Rachel fought the Shadow King, he said that her inexperience unable her to wield the full power of the force she wields..

I have heard this before, never seen a scan, would you have one (i would prefer an issue number too). Also if i am not wrong its a what if.

- Yes.. I believe it's a What If.. I believe the title was "What If the X-Men Lost Inferno?" What if...? (2nd series) # 6.. Here is the scan..

This is from one of the Excalibur issues and there is a context involved i believe, which sadly i cant recall at the moment. Do you have the issue number, i know i can add context to it, also i recall 2 universe first merged and then it seperated on its own

- Yes.. I believe is was from Excalibur: Weird War III (Marvel Graphic Novel # 66).. From what i remember, the PF merged the two realities because of the mental energies of Herr Xavier's mentally slaughtered mutants evolved into a single consciousness.. Their cries and anguish coxed the PF to merged the two universes and seperated when the cosmic balance was restored..

HOM Wanda's feat was indeed omniversal in nature, and it was stated as omniversal in Die by the Sword 01. The problem is her reality warping feat is all but universal, that also incomplete within a universe, while it did affect the past and the future, it only affected the potential past and the future of 616.

- Yes, it was but that was the warped she did when she created House of M.. During the HoM, we are aware that there were alternate realities which were not affected by the warped and it was isolated in 616, well used to be 616.. But, the same thing cannot be said on her second spell, the spell of "No More Mutants".. When she uttered those words, it just did not only shifted every possible alternate futures of the 616 universe, but it also affected alternate realities as shown in Endangered Species.. There we see alternate realities, and alternate counterparts of Beast figuring out how to undo the spell of "No More Mutants"..

The Chaos Wave however tore apart the omniverse, now that is genuinely an omniversal feat, but Phoenix did nothing in order to stop that though. It was Meggan who first tapped into the power of Earth, then Otherworld and when that power was still not even she tapped into the power of the Beyond, together with all these power she manage to close the rift , once the Chaos Wave was halted the omniverse healed itself.

- No i never had the Chaos Wave in mind.. And you are correct, the PF did nothing to do to stop it and that it was Meagan..

Thats still Phoenix force affecting past and future of mutant race.

- Again, i was referring how it undid the spell of "No More Mutants" which apparently also affected alternate universes..

We are clearly talking about different issue, i was talking more about issues where Phoenix Force destroys its native alternate reality in 2 what ifs. The Living Tribunal instance i have no read and hence cannot comment.

- Oh, sorry.. My bad.. :)

The feat was clearly referred to as universal in the issue as well as bio, hard to argue it was multiversal, not to mention Jean had good help there and she was inside white hot room, where the Phoenix avatar are amped.

- Hmmm.. I never heard that the PF avatars are amped while within the WHR.. Are they like Elder Gods, Demons or Principalities now, who are significantly more powerful while within their realms?

Could you show me one on panel evidence or bio that suggests the universe she held on her hand became 616?

That certainly doesnt look like the case.

Earth 15104 is a potential future of 616 , which formes an alternate dimension.

She did pluck Earth 15104 from its mega structure, which likely was the vast amount of potential futures of 616 as opposed to a whole multiverse. Even then given she is inside a nexus of all reality, and plucked a reality, i dont see how that makes it any more than a universal feat.

Sorry but i am a little confused on what you are trying to say on the () part, because Here Comes Tomorrow wasnt a good future as it was destined to die, it was orphaned by Jean Action and later erased as a potential future because of what Scott did.

- Ok.. Here is the thing.. Jean plucked 15104.. Earth 15104 is only one of the many possible futures of Earth 616.. Now, we see Jean, cutting of the future (pertaining to the reality which is Earth 15104).. Now, since the dire future has been cut off, the possibility of the universe she was holding being Earth 15104 has been eliminated (how can it be the future reality when the future has already been cut off).. That is exactly why Quentin Quire told Jean that she must water it with her hearts blood, meaning she must let Scott, her one true love, go and allow him to be happy with Emma.. that is the only way for the current universe she is holding (616) to have a better future.. Her actions of giving Scott a mental push happened in the prime universe which is 616.. So therefore, the universe she was holding is clearly the prime reality..

Besides, the Phoenix has always been described as multiversal.. As evidenced by this scan..

That certainly isnt a multiversal feat, you got to admit, she is in a nexus of all reality, which clearly gives her access to any reality in the multiverse, then from there she picks one universe, that also unintentionally, even then its all but a potential future of 616, perhaps this picture will help:

All she did was pick one of those branches, manipulated it, and push Scott Summers to take an action that prevent that certain branch or future never happened.

Clearly universal if you ask me.

- Yes, yes i am well aware of that.. The WHR is indeed the Nexus of All Realities, but does that really underweight her feat.. The WPOTC has basically no feats outside the WHR so we cannot justify.. Nor does one can conclude she only control one universe at a time while inside her realm, nor does being in her realm boost her power.. Fact is, she can do basically anything to a certain universe as she wishes.. She held the prime universe in her hand from the rest of the existing realities, who knows the true extent of her powers.. We saw how the PF merged two realities before.. One can only assume of things she can do..

Now this is more of a multiversal feat, post retcon beyonder vs molecule man

- Ah.. Pre-Retcon Beyonder and Molecule Man.. Can't argue with those two..

Or this weirdest feat from Celestials that appeared quite recently, its multiversal or at the least significantly beyond universal.

- Never seen that before.. Thanks buddy.. :)

#47 Posted by lord_oraculous016 (9282 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord_oraculous016: wow!!!a long time not see you!!!

I have a BIG question, In the real world the Crown is the beginning point and end of all life and creation. The Divine name of Keter/The Crown is Eheieh (which is rendered as Pure Being,or Presence.). It is the highest divine essence that can possibly be conceived. Beyond it is the Unknowable God. Everything exists in Keter in its archetypical form.The colour used to represent it is brilliant white,both to symbolize burning radiance and the union of all colors of the spectrum. (White Phoenix of Crown)

this right?

Thanks.. :P

We that's is what defines it the the concept of the Tree of Life.. As Phoenix or others would call her "Green Phoenix", Jean was described as Tiphereth, the Heart of the Tree of Life.. like the concept which it is based on, the Green Phoenix is a being that symbolizes LOVE and COMPASSION.. As Dark Phoenix, a being who only hungers for carnal sensations, she may be described as concept of Malkuth in the Tree of Life which is associated with the realm of matter and earth and relates to the physical world.. And now as the White Phoenix of the Crown, she is described as Keter, also known as the Crown is the topmost Sephirot, which is described as the attribubutes/emenations through which GOD reveals himself and continuously creates both the physical realm and the chain of higher metaphysical realm.. I think this is what Marvel wants to portray Jean as the WPOTC.. Hope this helped..

#48 Posted by PowerWoman (3344 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord_oraculous016: I know this,in fact that mean WPOTC is highest divine essence,more like WPOTC is GOD itself or something..

#49 Edited by Killemall (18513 posts) - - Show Bio

- Thanks man.. :)

No problem :)

  1. Point taken.. but that doesn't change a fact the feat was a multiversal feat.. it only added more room for debate regarding the matter.. :)
  2. One must remember that possessing the force means you can actually utilize its full power.. remember when Rachel fought the Shadow King, he said that her inexperience unable her to wield the full power of the force she wields..

Well the feat itself is multiversal that i cant argue, its Phoenix Power involved in the feat being multiversal thats the thing i am questioning.

Lets look at something similar that happened quite recently, 5 months ago, in a Thor story arc called Everything Burns, when Surtur was allowed to channel his energy to the otherworld, a nexus, he was going to burn all the multiverse.

So the whole point was interference alignment must have had a huge part in the feat, if Surtur whose power has always been universal at best could burn the entire multiverse using nexus, its possible the same would be true for Phoenix.

- Yes.. I believe it's a What If.. I believe the title was "What If the X-Men Lost Inferno?" What if...? (2nd series) # 6.. Here is the scan..

Sorry man i find this feat really underwhelming.

So we are saying its a multiversal feat because it says

"For the shake of the multiverse it must today heed the words of the Living Tribunal"

Could very well be the action of Living Tribunal was the one thatwould have problem to the multiverse after all it says

"The Tribunal would have destroyed the entire orb now there is no need"

Sort of like LT was going to destroy the entire universe perhaps that was going to have repercussion to the multiverse.

I know i am just nitpicking but it feel very underwhelming feat, something like this.

We have also seen statement like this made in regards to Kosmos (cosmic cube)

Oddly enough though Kosmos dies during Annihilation: Silver Sufer 03 with nothing happening.

- Yes, it was but that was the warped she did when she created House of M.. During the HoM, we are aware that there were alternate realities which were not affected by the warped and it was isolated in 616, well used to be 616.. But, the same thing cannot be said on her second spell, the spell of "No More Mutants".. When she uttered those words, it just did not only shifted every possible alternate futures of the 616 universe, but it also affected alternate realities as shown in Endangered Species.. There we see alternate realities, and alternate counterparts of Beast figuring out how to undo the spell of "No More Mutants"..

I have not read Endangered Species so i think i just have to agree here :p, this however to be has been the best Phoenix feat thus far, and honestly i think it was writers not thinking the re-precussion of the feat than anything else. But its on panel, despite how much disagreement i might have, on panel trumps , personal opinion.

I concede this particular point.

- Hmmm.. I never heard that the PF avatars are amped while within the WHR.. Are they like Elder Gods, Demons or Principalities now, who are significantly more powerful while within their realms?

To some extent yes, during House of M we saw the have access to extra powers inside the Crystal.

Both Rachel and Betsy seem capable of accessing their alternate reality counterparts within white Hot Room, something we know they cant normally do.

- Ok.. Here is the thing.. Jean plucked 15104.. Earth 15104 is only one of the many possible futures of Earth 616.. Now, we see Jean, cutting of the future (pertaining to the reality which is Earth 15104).. Now, since the dire future has been cut off, the possibility of the universe she was holding being Earth 15104 has been eliminated (how can it be the future reality when the future has already been cut off).. That is exactly why Quentin Quire told Jean that she must water it with her hearts blood, meaning she must let Scott, her one true love, go and allow him to be happy with Emma.. that is the only way for the current universe she is holding (616) to have a better future.. Her actions of giving Scott a mental push happened in the prime universe which is 616.. So therefore, the universe she was holding is clearly the prime reality..

Ok lets see:

1. Jean plucked Earth 15104 - Agreed

2. 15104 is a possible future of 616 - Agreed

3. Jean cut off the reality making it orphan - Agreed, although she only cutts off the potential future of reality 15104. The reality itself has to have a future, after all every potential future is a universe. Every branch in the scan i posted above has sub branches. There is also absolutely no statement about it being 616 in either the story, or Here Comes Tomorrow bio on marvel handbook, or in Phoenix Handbook suggesting anything there happened in 616.

4. Even if we assume she was holding 616, which she manipulated atom by atom, water it with her hearts blood, it still is universal isnt it.

Besides, the Phoenix has always been described as multiversal.. As evidenced by this scan..

Contrary to popular belief, and honestly i have seen the same scan being brought up more than once, its false. Phoenix has consistently been described as being universal.

Now lets see what the boxed part actually says

"ALLEGEDLY, it is the respidatory of psionic energy in the multiverse"

So supposidely its collectionof psionic energy in the multiverse, its not and never been stated as fact.

Is there then evidence to suggest its universe, yes there is :)

Lets look at a whole bunch of bio from classic to current.

Marvel Handbook 1986

"The phoenix force is a manifestation of a primal force of the universe which derives from the psyches of all living beings in theuniverse"

Marvel Handbook 1983

"....This is a manifestation of a primal force of the universe which derives from the psyches of all living being in the universe."

Marvel Handbook 2005

"The Phoenix Force is an immortal, indestructible, and mutabale manifestation of the prime universal force of life.."

Its also the same in Phoenix Handbook 2011, i can look up for the handbook if you like.

- Ah.. Pre-Retcon Beyonder and Molecule Man.. Can't argue with those two..

Its actually post retcon Beyonder and Molecule Man, both of whom are cosmic cube being, and the fight took place in Fantastic Four Annual 27.

#50 Posted by lord_oraculous016 (9282 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord_oraculous016: I know this,in fact that mean WPOTC is highest divine essence,more like WPOTC is GOD itself or something..

I don't think so.. That is just a bit too much.. IMO, she's more like someone who acts in behalf of a superior being in terms of the concept of the spirit, life and creation.. We all know that The Living Tribunal is the supreme judge of the omniverse.. The one who acts as the chief arbitrator and serves as the guardian of the ominiverse, in a physical way i mean.. For what i can tell, the WPOTC acts the same, but serves as a guardians of the metaphysical to spiritual realm.. The realm of the mind and spirit.. In my opion, she appears more akin to an angel in a biblical sense rather than being God.. Also, she reminds me of one.. Remember the Seraphim?.. The angel of the highest order who is clothed in holy flames.. I think she is more like that.. But to be God, heavens no.. :)