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#1 Edited by Lance Bastro (4744 posts) - - Show Bio

 

  • all full powered
 uni-power
  • shuma is continuously feeding
  • the entities can possess anyone as avatars to their liking
phoenix force
  • shuma can possess an avatar as well
 
 

 
exceptions:

 
battle rules:
  • win through containment, incapacitation, KO, or complete annihilation
  • bfr is only a means of temporary victory by mere seconds to minutes unless permanently contained. 
  • battle is take place in multi-dimensional space.
 
 

 
 
 
  star trek vs decepticons
 
                     cyttorak vs marvel & DBZ
 
                                          juggernaut vs doomsday
#2 Posted by AnimeVice (86 posts) - - Show Bio

Phoenix Force solos.

#3 Edited by Goenitz (2064 posts) - - Show Bio

The team here, It's too much power, but Shuma couldn´t be destroyed

#4 Posted by Grand Ninja (2330 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Shuma can handle this team. The Uni power shouldn't be a factor. It's the Phoenix Force that has all the power. But the Phoenix provides the engery that Shuma feeds on, not to mention Uni power as well. I say that the team can get sucked dry.
#5 Posted by FinalStar86 (8681 posts) - - Show Bio

Stop bumping all of your fail threads

#6 Posted by Lance Bastro (4744 posts) - - Show Bio

 come to think of it. what can the unipower actually do here, unless it merges itself with the pheonix entity?  

#7 Posted by Argantyr (245 posts) - - Show Bio

Unipower from what I've seen, bolsters the physical attributes of it's avatars, but other than that would offer little more to whoever was the Phoenix Force avatar. I could be wrong on that though...

IMO Phoenix Force is over rated, Shuma will feed on it for eons and with it will claim 616 as it's own once more.

#8 Posted by marvellover1 (373 posts) - - Show Bio

Phoenix Force  solo  

#9 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (3907 posts) - - Show Bio
@marvellover1 said:
"Phoenix Force  solo   "
#10 Posted by Argantyr (245 posts) - - Show Bio
@marvellover1:
And why is that? If Phoenix Force truly exists in every universe, much like the many abstracts, then Shuma-Gorath has defeated Phoenix Force 100+ times. If not, then Phoenix Force is universal, not to mention all other alternate reality Phoenix Force entities have been royally demolished i.e. Goblin Force, which was only a portion of the Phoenix Force, but still it triumphed. Shuma-Gorath hasn't had nearly as many low showings as Phoenix Force, not even death can seem to kill Shuma-Gorath, nay, even cripple him. At the very least, Shuma-Gorath has had to get BFRd more time than he was defeated, and when he was he was defeated with his own power alone where as the Phoenix Force has been destroyed by Shi-Ar weapons, had a portion of it trapped in a sword, etc, etc.

Phoenix Force = Most overrated abstract with Mikaboshi trailing in second place.
#11 Posted by marvellover1 (373 posts) - - Show Bio

phoenix solo

#12 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (3907 posts) - - Show Bio
@Argantyr said:
" @marvellover1: And why is that? If Phoenix Force truly exists in every universe, much like the many abstracts, then Shuma-Gorath has defeated Phoenix Force 100+ times. If not, then Phoenix Force is universal, not to mention all other alternate reality Phoenix Force entities have been royally demolished i.e. Goblin Force, which was only a portion of the Phoenix Force, but still it triumphed. Shuma-Gorath hasn't had nearly as many low showings as Phoenix Force, not even death can seem to kill Shuma-Gorath, nay, even cripple him. At the very least, Shuma-Gorath has had to get BFRd more time than he was defeated, and when he was he was defeated with his own power alone where as the Phoenix Force has been destroyed by Shi-Ar weapons, had a portion of it trapped in a sword, etc, etc.Phoenix Force = Most overrated abstract with Mikaboshi trailing in second place. "

Not even death can seem to kill Phoenix either, nay even cripple it, the Phoenix has avatars that exists in every universe wheter mortal or firebird, the Force proper resides outside of all space, time and dimensions, it's power touchs them all.  The Phoenix was not destroyed by any Shi'ar weapon, a piece of it was reconstituted by one weapon, the weapon they believed would kill it failed and was neutralized by the White Phoenix.  The portion was not trapped in the sword, their was residual energy left and Jean easily took it back, even Rachel was able to extract some because the piece in it recognized her and bonded, if it were trapped it would not have been able to decide to give her a piece of itself .
#13 Posted by Prince CortSether (2301 posts) - - Show Bio
@LordOfAllHumans said:

" @Argantyr said:

" @marvellover1: And why is that? If Phoenix Force truly exists in every universe, much like the many abstracts, then Shuma-Gorath has defeated Phoenix Force 100+ times. If not, then Phoenix Force is universal, not to mention all other alternate reality Phoenix Force entities have been royally demolished i.e. Goblin Force, which was only a portion of the Phoenix Force, but still it triumphed. Shuma-Gorath hasn't had nearly as many low showings as Phoenix Force, not even death can seem to kill Shuma-Gorath, nay, even cripple him. At the very least, Shuma-Gorath has had to get BFRd more time than he was defeated, and when he was he was defeated with his own power alone where as the Phoenix Force has been destroyed by Shi-Ar weapons, had a portion of it trapped in a sword, etc, etc.Phoenix Force = Most overrated abstract with Mikaboshi trailing in second place. "
Not even death can seem to kill Phoenix either, nay even cripple it, the Phoenix has avatars that exists in every universe wheter mortal or firebird, the Force proper resides outside of all space, time and dimensions, it's power touchs them all.  The Phoenix was not destroyed by any Shi'ar weapon, a piece of it was reconstituted by one weapon, the weapon they believed would kill it failed and was neutralized by the White Phoenix.  The portion was not trapped in the sword, their was residual energy left and Jean easily took it back, even Rachel was able to extract some because the piece in it recognized her and bonded, if it were trapped it would not have been able to decide to give her a piece of itself . "
 
The Phoenix Force is extremely vulnerable:

  1. Nearly gets killed by an alien spaceship
  2. Gets shattered by Xorn with a planetary EMP
  3. Gets shattered by the Shiar
  4. Nearly erased by Galactus
  5. BFR’d and beaten by a few members of the X-Men and some of the Ultraforce.

Let's see an actual decent feat from Phoenix instead of hyperbole.

Shuma-Gorath has shown better.
#14 Edited by Argantyr (245 posts) - - Show Bio
@LordOfAllHumans:
Well then, if they both cannot be slain by death, then why is Phoenix Force largely considered capable of stomping Shuma-Gorath? I do not agree with it personally, and obviously you can't not read a battle thread without Phoenix Force, so I know a goo bit of knowledge of this foe at hand. Still, Shuma-Gorath on the other hand is what some have called a 'Transfinite' entity, there is but one Shuma-Gorath [if we exclude the MvC universes] that has conquered a plethora of dimensions or as they should be called 'realities' because technically Dimensions are completely different [1 Dimensional, 2 Dimensional, etc, I'd fear if someone conquered 100 dimensions].

It's not that I believe the Phoenix Force may neer score a victory in a span of say thousands of similar situations, but Shuma-Gorath can influence  whole worlds from fast distances, he can leech off of any power, and the Phoenix and Uni-Force is no exception. The fact that the Shi-ar could fabricate weapons to harm the Phoenix Force whereas Dr. Strange himself even with massive magic upgrades, failed to harm Shuma-Gorath at all, but Dr. Strange at that point was extremely powerful, probably more powerful than the Vishanti with the merge with Arioch but in the end had to use Shuma's own magic energies against him before Dr. Strange himself commited suicide to prevent himself from becoming Shuma-Gorath.

Through what I know, I can only conclude that the Phoenix Force is facing omething that, without prep s this massive mystic entity, will no doubt lose, and as for the Uni-Force, I'm not quite sure what it' done outside of the Captain Universe.


 @Lance Bastro: Also, what do you mean when you say 'Shuma may have an avatar'? Does that mean he could use Arioch? XD
#15 Posted by Nelomaxwell (10361 posts) - - Show Bio

SHUMA GORATH!!!!! I love that MVC 2 announcer.

#16 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (3907 posts) - - Show Bio
@Prince CortSether said:
" @LordOfAllHumans said:

" @Argantyr said:

" @marvellover1: And why is that? If Phoenix Force truly exists in every universe, much like the many abstracts, then Shuma-Gorath has defeated Phoenix Force 100+ times. If not, then Phoenix Force is universal, not to mention all other alternate reality Phoenix Force entities have been royally demolished i.e. Goblin Force, which was only a portion of the Phoenix Force, but still it triumphed. Shuma-Gorath hasn't had nearly as many low showings as Phoenix Force, not even death can seem to kill Shuma-Gorath, nay, even cripple him. At the very least, Shuma-Gorath has had to get BFRd more time than he was defeated, and when he was he was defeated with his own power alone where as the Phoenix Force has been destroyed by Shi-Ar weapons, had a portion of it trapped in a sword, etc, etc.Phoenix Force = Most overrated abstract with Mikaboshi trailing in second place. "
Not even death can seem to kill Phoenix either, nay even cripple it, the Phoenix has avatars that exists in every universe wheter mortal or firebird, the Force proper resides outside of all space, time and dimensions, it's power touchs them all.  The Phoenix was not destroyed by any Shi'ar weapon, a piece of it was reconstituted by one weapon, the weapon they believed would kill it failed and was neutralized by the White Phoenix.  The portion was not trapped in the sword, their was residual energy left and Jean easily took it back, even Rachel was able to extract some because the piece in it recognized her and bonded, if it were trapped it would not have been able to decide to give her a piece of itself . "
 
The Phoenix Force is extremely vulnerable:

  1. Nearly gets killed by an alien spaceship
  2. Gets shattered by Xorn with a planetary EMP
  3. Gets shattered by the Shiar
  4. Nearly erased by Galactus
  5. BFR’d and beaten by a few members of the X-Men and some of the Ultraforce.
Let's see an actual decent feat from Phoenix instead of hyperbole. Shuma-Gorath has shown better. "


1. Was being used as a power source by an alien spaceship, and broke out, was stolen from Amber, used again got pissed broke out again and crippled it, inadvertantly being responsible for superhumans on that Earth.

2. And reconstitutes

3. Becomes a Dark Phoenix about to destroy the Earth and maybe more if left unchecked. 

4. And nearly takes the universe with it.

5. Returns to it's home traversing both time and dimensions.

 

She has decent showings, your low open of them notwithstanding, her biggest feats, as few as they are, are granding in scale than his as far as the kind of power it takes to accomplish them, actual in print, actual printed feats not hyperbole.

#17 Posted by CapitolPunishment (2303 posts) - - Show Bio
@Prince CortSether said:
" @LordOfAllHumans said:

" @Argantyr said:

" @marvellover1: And why is that? If Phoenix Force truly exists in every universe, much like the many abstracts, then Shuma-Gorath has defeated Phoenix Force 100+ times. If not, then Phoenix Force is universal, not to mention all other alternate reality Phoenix Force entities have been royally demolished i.e. Goblin Force, which was only a portion of the Phoenix Force, but still it triumphed. Shuma-Gorath hasn't had nearly as many low showings as Phoenix Force, not even death can seem to kill Shuma-Gorath, nay, even cripple him. At the very least, Shuma-Gorath has had to get BFRd more time than he was defeated, and when he was he was defeated with his own power alone where as the Phoenix Force has been destroyed by Shi-Ar weapons, had a portion of it trapped in a sword, etc, etc.Phoenix Force = Most overrated abstract with Mikaboshi trailing in second place. "
Not even death can seem to kill Phoenix either, nay even cripple it, the Phoenix has avatars that exists in every universe wheter mortal or firebird, the Force proper resides outside of all space, time and dimensions, it's power touchs them all.  The Phoenix was not destroyed by any Shi'ar weapon, a piece of it was reconstituted by one weapon, the weapon they believed would kill it failed and was neutralized by the White Phoenix.  The portion was not trapped in the sword, their was residual energy left and Jean easily took it back, even Rachel was able to extract some because the piece in it recognized her and bonded, if it were trapped it would not have been able to decide to give her a piece of itself . "
 
The Phoenix Force is extremely vulnerable:

  1. Nearly gets killed by an alien spaceship
  2. Gets shattered by Xorn with a planetary EMP
  3. Gets shattered by the Shiar
  4. Nearly erased by Galactus
  5. BFR’d and beaten by a few members of the X-Men and some of the Ultraforce.
Let's see an actual decent feat from Phoenix instead of hyperbole. Shuma-Gorath has shown better. "


 


Don't forget this one, solo'd by Thor.
#18 Posted by Shuma-Gorath (433 posts) - - Show Bio

#19 Posted by marvellover1 (373 posts) - - Show Bio

Im sorry but if you think the phoenix force is vulnerable, do some research.

#20 Posted by Argantyr (245 posts) - - Show Bio
@marvellover1:  and Research has been done, and it has been presented, accusing those poised against Phoenix that they have not done suitable research only serves nothing, but making you look a tad bit biased.

But that's fine, everyone has their own opinions, just some take it too far and have to try belittling their opposition. Still, feat wise I'm inclind to believe that, while the Phoenix possibly exists in muliple realities [or perhaps it sheds a portion of itself which grows in power, acting as an instrument in it's goals - whatever they may be] but ulitimately, I'm willing to bet Shuma-Gorath is a universal threat just as the Dark Phoenix was. Only Shuma-Gorath has shown such power that few even want to challenge him, never mind actually doing so.

Given Shuma's powerset I still believe he would triumph. IF we even assumed they were equals, since I don't believe hat Shuma is PF's inferior, but assuming they were equal, Shuma would sponge off PF's power, and theres nothing she/it could do about it.
#21 Posted by cloverfield (455 posts) - - Show Bio

shuma gorath
#22 Posted by Prince CortSether (2301 posts) - - Show Bio
@marvellover1 said:
" Im sorry but if you think the phoenix force is vulnerable, do some research. "
Research has been done. Unfortunately for those arguing against the Phoenix Force or any of its avatars in a battle they have to face circular arguments from those supporting Phoenix.

If for example evidence shows the Force itself getting blown to bits the typical comeback is 'well the Force itself cannot fight it needs a host so that's why it's vulnerable' but then when providing multiple accounts of a Phoenix avatar getting mauled the response is 'that's because it was just an avatar and only had a fraction of the force's power' and all that junk.

Here's something, if the Phoenix Force is so powerful and such an integral part of the Marvel universe as is claimed, then where is it during any scenario dealing with cosmic level threats? Doing nothing I'm afraid because it's been shown to be shattered by the likes of Rogue from X-Men.
#23 Edited by Cypher's Gambit (2109 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't get me wrong, Phoenix is very powerful indeed, but offensively powerful. Look at Marvel vs Capcom 3. It's vulnerable to hits though. However, the point of the Phoenix Force is to die, and raise up again. Here is her theme song.


  
P.S: Gawd, I miss Aaliyah. Gonna post about her on the off-topic board.
#24 Edited by lord_oraculous016 (9282 posts) - - Show Bio
@Prince CortSether said:

" @marvellover1 said:

" Im sorry but if you think the phoenix force is vulnerable, do some research. "

Research has been done. Unfortunately for those arguing against the Phoenix Force or any of its avatars in a battle they have to face circular arguments from those supporting Phoenix. If for example evidence shows the Force itself getting blown to bits the typical comeback is 'well the Force itself cannot fight it needs a host so that's why it's vulnerable' but then when providing multiple accounts of a Phoenix avatar getting mauled the response is 'that's because it was just an avatar and only had a fraction of the force's power' and all that junk.
all of this reasons is because of the Phoenix's own characteristics.. the Phoenix is not a concept like Eternity and Death or a cosmic being such as Galactus, but rather, it is a force.. a force that perpetuates life and death.. that is why if it needs to act, it must possess a certain host, as mentioned by Death herself.. and since the whole Dark Phoenix scenario, the Phoenix has been limiting the power it gives to its present host to prevent such instances to happen again.. not to mention the part that skill and experience in wielding the force is also a prime factor in the level and magnitude of a host's power.. as evidenced in its bio, the full extent of the power of the Phoenix is not yet revealed, and most of its feats are based on its host.. as for its most powerful host, Jean Grey possessed the power to possess total control of an entire universe at a sub-atomic level, had been suggested to possess the power to create her own universe if she wills it, and break the curse of the Scarlet Witch which spanned over many universes..

Here's something, if the Phoenix Force is so powerful and such an integral part of the Marvel universe as is claimed, then where is it during any scenario dealing with cosmic level threats?

the reason behind this is because the Phoenix is the main deity in X related stories.. writers only tend to use the character for stories related to the X-Men franchise.. there is possibly no appearance of the Phoenix Force outside X themed titles.. 

Doing nothing I'm afraid because it's been shown to be shattered by the likes of Rogue from X-Men.


incorrect.. please read the story.. the X-Men and Ultraforce only managed to spend it back with the aid of Amber Hunt who linked her mind with Gate to open a portal.. Amber Hunt is both linked on the alien ship which tried to use the power of the Phoenix to combine itself with its other half in the sun and to the Phoenix Force itself as she served as its avatar.. this exponentially boosted Amber Hunt's power which gave the group the victory.. without Amber's aid, the heroes were defenseless and the Earth would have been destroyed.. not to mention that this had to happen as it was the Phoenix who actually cause the crash of the alien ship to Earth and thus giving humans there superpowers.. Amber Hunt held a fraction of the Phoenix for some time until this was taken from her by Maxis..
#25 Edited by alexandrinus (428 posts) - - Show Bio


I do believe the Phoenix  would win solo. The Uni-power is a non factor in the figth.  Shuma Gorath is indeed one of the most powerful entities in the entire Multiverse, but the Phoenix Force is the most powerful entitie in the Multiverse as it was responsible for the creation of life itself in the entire Multiverse. It's powers are equal and may even surpass those of the Living Tribunal.

Phoenix is not a Multi-entity but exists as one in the entire multiverse, using avatars in each reality (such as the Living Tribunal enven though the Living Trbunal's avatars are created at is own image whereas the Phoenix Force grants a portion of it's powers to other beings).

.

The Phoenix Force is responsible for the creation of beings such as Galactus not only in the 616 Universe but in the entire multiverse.

 

Let's assume Shuma Gorath does defeat the Phoenix... it would simply revive her/itself again and continue to figth. Even if Shuma-Gorath could kill it for good, he himself would also die/disappear for good. The Phoenix Force is responsible for ALL LIFE (including Death) in the MULTIVERSE.

 

So, in a figth betewwen both, the sole thing Shuma-Gorath could actually do is stalemate the Phoenix Force.

#26 Posted by TheGoldenOne (38849 posts) - - Show Bio

Team

#27 Posted by Omarpool (6773 posts) - - Show Bio
Shuma.
#28 Posted by czarny_samael666 (16944 posts) - - Show Bio

Phoenix Force. Pretty easily IMO.
And Uni-Force is useless here.
P.S.Uni-Force gives more than just boost to physical stats.

#29 Posted by Prince CortSether (2301 posts) - - Show Bio
@alexandrinus said:
"


I do believe the Phoenix  would win solo. The Uni-power is a non factor in the figth.  Shuma Gorath is indeed one of the most powerful entities in the entire Multiverse, but the Phoenix Force is the most powerful entitie in the Multiverse as it was responsible for the creation of life itself in the entire Multiverse. It's powers are equal and may even surpass those of the Living Tribunal.

Phoenix is not a Multi-entity but exists as one in the entire multiverse, using avatars in each reality (such as the Living Tribunal enven though the Living Trbunal's avatars are created at is own image whereas the Phoenix Force grants a portion of it's powers to other beings).

.

The Phoenix Force is responsible for the creation of beings such as Galactus not only in the 616 Universe but in the entire multiverse.

 

Let's assume Shuma Gorath does defeat the Phoenix... it would simply revive her/itself again and continue to figth. Even if Shuma-Gorath could kill it for good, he himself would also die/disappear for good. The Phoenix Force is responsible for ALL LIFE (including Death) in the MULTIVERSE.

 

So, in a figth betewwen both, the sole thing Shuma-Gorath could actually do is stalemate the Phoenix Force.

"

Everything bolded in your post is wrong.
#30 Posted by John_Stewart (13 posts) - - Show Bio
@marvellover1 said:
" Phoenix Force  solo   "
#31 Posted by alexandrinus (428 posts) - - Show Bio

@Prince CortSether:

Actually many of those things ARE rigth. For example, the Phoenix Force did create Galactus in the first place. Galactus real name is Galan, a normal mortal from some planet that was alive when the end of the universe previous to the 616 was coming to an end. Seeing that there was no escape from the end of things, Galan a a bunch of ohter people (space explorers and cientists - the last survivors from that universe) decide to go over to the place where the Universe was being converged. Moments before arriving, all the people except for Galan died and Galan was the only one that was able ro reach the center of th oblivion (the Phoenix Force was protecting Galan at the time). When he reached there, his ship was torn apart and the Phoenix force used it to create Galactus armor and raised a protective cocoon around Galactus from wich he would rise once the new Universe was created. Actually Galactus was at the center of this of what became known as the Big Bang. 
When the Big Bang toke place and te Universe started to expand, The Phoenix Force traveled all over it spreading its power to create life. So, the Phoenix Force is responsible for all life in the 616 Universe and itand Galactus are its more ancient and first living beings (if we can call the Poenix Force a living being).

 

Galactus was there before Death, before Eternity (I won't say The Living Tribunal) and before anything else. And life sprang from the energies that The Phoenix Force spread across the entire 616 Universe.

#32 Posted by Prince CortSether (2301 posts) - - Show Bio
@alexandrinus said:
"

@Prince CortSether:

Actually many of those things ARE rigth. For example, the Phoenix Force did create Galactus in the first place. Galactus real name is Galan, a normal mortal from some planet that was alive when the end of the universe previous to the 616 was coming to an end. Seeing that there was no escape from the end of things, Galan a a bunch of ohter people (space explorers and cientists - the last survivors from that universe) decide to go over to the place where the Universe was being converged. Moments before arriving, all the people except for Galan died and Galan was the only one that was able ro reach the center of th oblivion (the Phoenix Force was protecting Galan at the time). When he reached there, his ship was torn apart and the Phoenix force used it to create Galactus armor and raised a protective cocoon around Galactus from wich he would rise once the new Universe was created. Actually Galactus was at the center of this of what became known as the Big Bang. 
When the Big Bang toke place and te Universe started to expand, The Phoenix Force traveled all over it spreading its power to create life. So, the Phoenix Force is responsible for all life in the 616 Universe and itand Galactus are its more ancient and first living beings (if we can call the Poenix Force a living being).

 

Galactus was there before Death, before Eternity (I won't say The Living Tribunal) and before anything else. And life sprang from the energies that The Phoenix Force spread across the entire 616 Universe.

"
Everything, including all of the abstracts of the Marvel Universe were created by the Infinity Being. It was the Infinity Being who saved Galan and turned him into Galactus. Shown on panel.





There was no equal to the Infinity Being in the original universe and every being was a part of its sentience. It was its suicide that created the original Big Bang and everything in the universe, as well as all of the abstracts, including LT. Everything spread from the Infinity Being, NOT the Phoenix Force.


#33 Posted by AssertingValor (5380 posts) - - Show Bio


depends who has uni- force (maybe silver surfer or thor)

 

 

mostlikely shuma though...........................................................................

#34 Posted by Cypher's Gambit (2109 posts) - - Show Bio
@Prince CortSether said:
" @alexandrinus said:
"

@Prince CortSether:

Actually many of those things ARE rigth. For example, the Phoenix Force did create Galactus in the first place. Galactus real name is Galan, a normal mortal from some planet that was alive when the end of the universe previous to the 616 was coming to an end. Seeing that there was no escape from the end of things, Galan a a bunch of ohter people (space explorers and cientists - the last survivors from that universe) decide to go over to the place where the Universe was being converged. Moments before arriving, all the people except for Galan died and Galan was the only one that was able ro reach the center of th oblivion (the Phoenix Force was protecting Galan at the time). When he reached there, his ship was torn apart and the Phoenix force used it to create Galactus armor and raised a protective cocoon around Galactus from wich he would rise once the new Universe was created. Actually Galactus was at the center of this of what became known as the Big Bang. 
When the Big Bang toke place and te Universe started to expand, The Phoenix Force traveled all over it spreading its power to create life. So, the Phoenix Force is responsible for all life in the 616 Universe and itand Galactus are its more ancient and first living beings (if we can call the Poenix Force a living being).

 

Galactus was there before Death, before Eternity (I won't say The Living Tribunal) and before anything else. And life sprang from the energies that The Phoenix Force spread across the entire 616 Universe.

"
Everything, including all of the abstracts of the Marvel Universe were created by the Infinity Being. It was the Infinity Being who saved Galan and turned him into Galactus. Shown on panel.





There was no equal to the Infinity Being in the original universe and every being was a part of its sentience. It was its suicide that created the original Big Bang and everything in the universe, as well as all of the abstracts, including LT. Everything spread from the Infinity Being, NOT the Phoenix Force.


"


The 1st scan, bottom panel.
Is... that...
D'Spyare?
#35 Posted by Prince CortSether (2301 posts) - - Show Bio
@Cypher's Gambit: Yep, it's D'Spayre with the Dweller in Darkness
#36 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (3907 posts) - - Show Bio
@Prince CortSether said:
" @alexandrinus said:
"

@Prince CortSether:

Actually many of those things ARE rigth. For example, the Phoenix Force did create Galactus in the first place. Galactus real name is Galan, a normal mortal from some planet that was alive when the end of the universe previous to the 616 was coming to an end. Seeing that there was no escape from the end of things, Galan a a bunch of ohter people (space explorers and cientists - the last survivors from that universe) decide to go over to the place where the Universe was being converged. Moments before arriving, all the people except for Galan died and Galan was the only one that was able ro reach the center of th oblivion (the Phoenix Force was protecting Galan at the time). When he reached there, his ship was torn apart and the Phoenix force used it to create Galactus armor and raised a protective cocoon around Galactus from wich he would rise once the new Universe was created. Actually Galactus was at the center of this of what became known as the Big Bang. 
When the Big Bang toke place and te Universe started to expand, The Phoenix Force traveled all over it spreading its power to create life. So, the Phoenix Force is responsible for all life in the 616 Universe and itand Galactus are its more ancient and first living beings (if we can call the Poenix Force a living being).

 

Galactus was there before Death, before Eternity (I won't say The Living Tribunal) and before anything else. And life sprang from the energies that The Phoenix Force spread across the entire 616 Universe.

"
Everything, including all of the abstracts of the Marvel Universe were created by the Infinity Being. It was the Infinity Being who saved Galan and turned him into Galactus. Shown on panel.


 



There was no equal to the Infinity Being in the original universe and every being was a part of its sentience. It was its suicide that created the original Big Bang and everything in the universe, as well as all of the abstracts, including LT. Everything spread from the Infinity Being, NOT the Phoenix Force.


 
"


Shown on what panel?  That top panel shown is the previous universe being destroyed because of an imbalance in the M'Kraan crystal, it had, nothing to do with or no mention of the Infinity being, the sentience of the universe would also be the collective minds of every being in the universe that was gathered by a Phoenix empowered Jean Grey in the panels before.  Reed Richards specifically states that the energies of creation, the big bang and the Phoenix Force are all synonymous and are also responsible for creating Galactus and by definiton everything else since the three words can used interchangeably.  So yeah the power of the Phoenix did flow throughout 616 as the big bang or the energies of creation, or what have you.


 

 


 

#37 Posted by Prince CortSether (2301 posts) - - Show Bio
@LordOfAllHumans said:

" @Prince CortSether said:

" @alexandrinus said:
"

@Prince CortSether:

Actually many of those things ARE rigth. For example, the Phoenix Force did create Galactus in the first place. Galactus real name is Galan, a normal mortal from some planet that was alive when the end of the universe previous to the 616 was coming to an end. Seeing that there was no escape from the end of things, Galan a a bunch of ohter people (space explorers and cientists - the last survivors from that universe) decide to go over to the place where the Universe was being converged. Moments before arriving, all the people except for Galan died and Galan was the only one that was able ro reach the center of th oblivion (the Phoenix Force was protecting Galan at the time). When he reached there, his ship was torn apart and the Phoenix force used it to create Galactus armor and raised a protective cocoon around Galactus from wich he would rise once the new Universe was created. Actually Galactus was at the center of this of what became known as the Big Bang. 
When the Big Bang toke place and te Universe started to expand, The Phoenix Force traveled all over it spreading its power to create life. So, the Phoenix Force is responsible for all life in the 616 Universe and itand Galactus are its more ancient and first living beings (if we can call the Poenix Force a living being).

 

Galactus was there before Death, before Eternity (I won't say The Living Tribunal) and before anything else. And life sprang from the energies that The Phoenix Force spread across the entire 616 Universe.

"
Everything, including all of the abstracts of the Marvel Universe were created by the Infinity Being. It was the Infinity Being who saved Galan and turned him into Galactus. Shown on panel.





There was no equal to the Infinity Being in the original universe and every being was a part of its sentience. It was its suicide that created the original Big Bang and everything in the universe, as well as all of the abstracts, including LT. Everything spread from the Infinity Being, NOT the Phoenix Force.


"


Shown on what panel?  That top panel shown is the previous universe being destroyed because of an imbalance in the M'Kraan crystal, it had, nothing to do with or no mention of the Infinity being, the sentience of the universe would also be the collective minds of every being in the universe that was gathered by a Phoenix empowered Jean Grey in the panels before.  Reed Richards specifically states that the energies of creation, the big bang and the Phoenix Force are all synonymous and are also responsible for creating Galactus and by definiton everything else since the three words can used interchangeably.  So yeah the power of the Phoenix did flow throughout 616 as the big bang or the energies of creation, or what have you.


 


 

"

*Sigh* No.  Phoenix had nothing to do with saving anyone, or Galactus for that matter. Phoenix didn't save anybody because the previous universe still collapsed and was destroyed. It just a message to the live in the universe and told them that they were all going to die, but didn't save any of them. It was the Infinity Being that saved Galan and later merged with him so it could turn him into the universal balance of the future reality created by the Infinity Being's Big Bang.

Nice that you brought up the hyperbole from Reed Richards, because it was the Alien Entity who merged with the fires of creation and it was his thoughts that created the Big Bang while he used Reed Richards mind as a guide, who was there to witness The Alien Entity perform this feat. Enough of this 'Phoenix is the Big Bang' talk. It's seriously getting old and is essentially based on nothing but hyperbole.










#38 Edited by alexandrinus (428 posts) - - Show Bio


Yep.   Prince CortSether is rigth about Galactus. And I was wrong. Still, I believe that the Phoenix Force would win in a figth with Shuma-Gorath.

 

The Phoenix Force is an immortal and mutable manifestation of the prime universal force of life and passion. Born of the void between states of being, the Phoenix Force is a child of the universe. It is the nexus of all psionic energy which does, has, and ever will exist in all realities of the omniverse, the Guardian of Creation, and of the dangerously powerful M'Kraan Crystal.

The Phoenix is among the most feared beings in the entire existence — having the power to cut and re-grow any part of the universe, as well as destroy it entirely, which is part of the Phoenix's purpose: "The Judgment of the Phoenix", to burn away the obsolete. The Phoenix Force is described as being "the embodiment of the very passion of Creation – the spark that gave life to the Universe, the flame that will ultimately consume it."    

#39 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (3907 posts) - - Show Bio


you can post that as many times as you want,as it in no way disproves my post...no matter what initiated the big bang, the energies that make it up are the energies of creation, the Phoenix Force.  Whether TOAA, the Infinity Being or any of the myriad of marvel creation myths you post the end result is the same, the big bang was sparked and the big bang is Phoenix or what have you...you messed up when you used scans from the comic that shows the destruction of the previous universe and tried to attribute what happened there to another being, when anyone who has read it knows that nothing about that being was mentioned and that it was essentially a book focusing on the Xmen, the M'Kraan crystal and the Phoenix.  Phoenix united every sentient mind in the universe, that collective sentience would have been the sentience of the universe, and that was what ushered him into the egg, the powers of creation transfomed Galan and created Galactus, as stated on panel.. for some reason you think that your panel evidence is more valid than others, I have given panel evidence as well, and other than not calling the big bang the Phoenix force, you have proved nothing by posting.  It's funny how Reed is in the scans you have above witnessing the creation event and you take this as gospel, but when he tells you that the energies of that event have been called many names you ignore it simple because on of those names is Phoenix

 

@alexandrinus    he's not right about Galactus, I just showed you on panel evidence that the same eneriges that created Galactus are synonomous with big bang and Phoenix force.  he also showed you scans that are from different books and the one with Galactus mentions nothing about the infinity being commiting suicide, that last universe was at it's end becaue the M'Kraan crystal, that book also shows what happens after the end and that was the current universe being born, and still there is no mention of the infinity being, but of cousre he wouldn't dare post the scans before and after the one he did post.
#40 Posted by tron_bonne (2286 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Shuma might have the power to contain Phoenix Force, but I don't know for how long.

#41 Posted by Sissel (1985 posts) - - Show Bio

  I don't know if this mean much, but it is posted from Marvel.com 

 

Phoenix

 
http://marvel.com/universe/Phoenix_Force 
 

Shuma-Gorath

http://marvel.com/universe/Shuma-Gorath 
 From what I have seen in this stats, The Phoenix Force is much more powerful than Shuma-Gorath. Also, Fans are over-estimating Shuma-Gorath based on the difference of the official ratings and fan votes. While fans do the opposite for the Phoenix Force. 
#42 Posted by Lance Bastro (4744 posts) - - Show Bio
@LordOfAllHumans said:
@Argantyr said:
" @marvellover1: And why is that? If Phoenix Force truly exists in every universe, much like the many abstracts, then Shuma-Gorath has defeated Phoenix Force 100+ times. If not, then Phoenix Force is universal, not to mention all other alternate reality Phoenix Force entities have been royally demolished i.e. Goblin Force, which was only a portion of the Phoenix Force, but still it triumphed. Shuma-Gorath hasn't had nearly as many low showings as Phoenix Force, not even death can seem to kill Shuma-Gorath, nay, even cripple him. At the very least, Shuma-Gorath has had to get BFRd more time than he was defeated, and when he was he was defeated with his own power alone where as the Phoenix Force has been destroyed by Shi-Ar weapons, had a portion of it trapped in a sword, etc, etc.Phoenix Force = Most overrated abstract with Mikaboshi trailing in second place. "
Not even death can seem to kill Phoenix either, nay even cripple it, the Phoenix has avatars that exists in every universe wheter mortal or firebird, the Force proper resides outside of all space, time and dimensions, it's power touchs them all.  The Phoenix was not destroyed by any Shi'ar weapon, a piece of it was reconstituted by one weapon, the weapon they believed would kill it failed and was neutralized by the White Phoenix.  The portion was not trapped in the sword, their was residual energy left and Jean easily took it back, even Rachel was able to extract some because the piece in it recognized her and bonded, if it were trapped it would not have been able to decide to give her a piece of itself .
 @Prince CortSether said:
@LordOfAllHumans said:

" @Argantyr said:

" @marvellover1: And why is that? If Phoenix Force truly exists in every universe, much like the many abstracts, then Shuma-Gorath has defeated Phoenix Force 100+ times. If not, then Phoenix Force is universal, not to mention all other alternate reality Phoenix Force entities have been royally demolished i.e. Goblin Force, which was only a portion of the Phoenix Force, but still it triumphed. Shuma-Gorath hasn't had nearly as many low showings as Phoenix Force, not even death can seem to kill Shuma-Gorath, nay, even cripple him. At the very least, Shuma-Gorath has had to get BFRd more time than he was defeated, and when he was he was defeated with his own power alone where as the Phoenix Force has been destroyed by Shi-Ar weapons, had a portion of it trapped in a sword, etc, etc.Phoenix Force = Most overrated abstract with Mikaboshi trailing in second place. "
Not even death can seem to kill Phoenix either, nay even cripple it, the Phoenix has avatars that exists in every universe wheter mortal or firebird, the Force proper resides outside of all space, time and dimensions, it's power touchs them all.  The Phoenix was not destroyed by any Shi'ar weapon, a piece of it was reconstituted by one weapon, the weapon they believed would kill it failed and was neutralized by the White Phoenix.  The portion was not trapped in the sword, their was residual energy left and Jean easily took it back, even Rachel was able to extract some because the piece in it recognized her and bonded, if it were trapped it would not have been able to decide to give her a piece of itself . "
 
The Phoenix Force is extremely vulnerable:

  1. Nearly gets killed by an alien spaceship
  2. Gets shattered by Xorn with a planetary EMP
  3. Gets shattered by the Shiar
  4. Nearly erased by Galactus
  5. BFR’d and beaten by a few members of the X-Men and some of the Ultraforce.
Let's see an actual decent feat from Phoenix instead of hyperbole. Shuma-Gorath has shown better.

@Argantyr said:
@LordOfAllHumans:
Well then, if they both cannot be slain by death, then why is Phoenix Force largely considered capable of stomping Shuma-Gorath? I do not agree with it personally, and obviously you can't not read a battle thread without Phoenix Force, so I know a goo bit of knowledge of this foe at hand. Still, Shuma-Gorath on the other hand is what some have called a 'Transfinite' entity, there is but one Shuma-Gorath [if we exclude the MvC universes] that has conquered a plethora of dimensions or as they should be called 'realities' because technically Dimensions are completely different [1 Dimensional, 2 Dimensional, etc, I'd fear if someone conquered 100 dimensions].

It's not that I believe the Phoenix Force may neer score a victory in a span of say thousands of similar situations, but Shuma-Gorath can influence  whole worlds from fast distances, he can leech off of any power, and the Phoenix and Uni-Force is no exception. The fact that the Shi-ar could fabricate weapons to harm the Phoenix Force whereas Dr. Strange himself even with massive magic upgrades, failed to harm Shuma-Gorath at all, but Dr. Strange at that point was extremely powerful, probably more powerful than the Vishanti with the merge with Arioch but in the end had to use Shuma's own magic energies against him before Dr. Strange himself commited suicide to prevent himself from becoming Shuma-Gorath.

Through what I know, I can only conclude that the Phoenix Force is facing omething that, without prep s this massive mystic entity, will no doubt lose, and as for the Uni-Force, I'm not quite sure what it' done outside of the Captain Universe.


 @Lance Bastro: Also, what do you mean when you say 'Shuma may have an avatar'? Does that mean he could use Arioch? XD

 
really good debate guys. keep up the good work. 
#43 Posted by SuperboyRob (138 posts) - - Show Bio

Phoenix with jean destroys
#44 Posted by demifiend (3575 posts) - - Show Bio

in theory phoenix takes this. 
by feats. Shuma takes this.

#45 Posted by Argantyr (245 posts) - - Show Bio
@Sissel said:
  I don't know if this mean much, but it is posted from Marvel.com 
 

Phoenix

 
http://marvel.com/universe/Phoenix_Force 
 

Shuma-Gorath

http://marvel.com/universe/Shuma-Gorath 
 From what I have seen in this stats, The Phoenix Force is much more powerful than Shuma-Gorath. Also, Fans are over-estimating Shuma-Gorath based on the difference of the official ratings and fan votes. While fans do the opposite for the Phoenix Force. 
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y54/Skhaal/Lol.png
 
Boom, by that logic Mephisto would knock her skinny white ass around. Lol, welcome to this debate, and also I will just lightly say that the feats are by no means inflated, for anyone who had read the arcs he's been in. The only time the Phoenix has really proved she was powerful was the Dark Phoenix saga, that's it. Also the Phoenix is clearly not Jean Grey, Jean Grey proved as host, the Phoenix clearly exists independent of Jean since it is in Rachel atm, and in alternate universes has taken hosts other than Jean, such as Colossus' dead body and changing it into a female.
 
But since this is the raw force, I believe Shuma-Gorath's vast magic powers and leech-like abilities will consume the force and turn it's sights on the Uni-force.
#46 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (3907 posts) - - Show Bio

@Argantyr said:

http://marvel.com/universe/Phoenix_Force

http://marvel.com/universe/Shuma-Gorath

@Sissel said:

I don't know if this mean much, but it is posted from Marvel.com

Phoenix



Shuma-Gorath


From what I have seen in this stats, The Phoenix Force is much more powerful than Shuma-Gorath. Also, Fans are over-estimating Shuma-Gorath based on the difference of the official ratings and fan votes. While fans do the opposite for the Phoenix Force.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y54/Skhaal/Lol.png Boom, by that logic Mephisto would knock her skinny white ass around. Lol, welcome to this debate, and also I will just lightly say that the feats are by no means inflated, for anyone who had read the arcs he's been in. The only time the Phoenix has really proved she was powerful was the Dark Phoenix saga, that's it. Also the Phoenix is clearly not Jean Grey, Jean Grey proved as host, the Phoenix clearly exists independent of Jean since it is in Rachel atm, and in alternate universes has taken hosts other than Jean, such as Colossus' dead body and changing it into a female. But since this is the raw force, I believe Shuma-Gorath's vast magic powers and leech-like abilities will consume the force and turn it's sights on the Uni-force.

Jean is the Phoenix in the flesh, and is a piece of it, it has other pieces that is sends out to take other hosts because there is a piece of it in every universe, the Phoenix Force proper is in the White Hot Room and that is what Jean has now become one with, she is an avatar which by definition is the physical representation of something of a god-like nature. How many times must Marvel state they are the same and that was the original concept when Phoenix was created for people to stop jumping to their own conclusions. Death already told Jean why Rachel would have the Phoenix, when it told her that her children would inherit it, Death also explains to Jean that she and the Phoenix are and have always been, way before HCT or Endsong.

body and soul she belongs to Phoenix and the two of them are not mutually exclusive it is hers by right Death tells her after the Dark Phoenix Saga and, HCT and Endsong cement that.

#47 Edited by Prince CortSether (2301 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sissel: If the marvel.com power grids were considered in battle threads then Dormammu would stomp both Shuma and Phoenix Force since he ranks higher than both of them - but we know from the panels that that's not the case ;P

#48 Posted by Fragneto (746 posts) - - Show Bio

@Prince CortSether said:

@Sissel: If the marvel.com power grids were considered in battle threads then Dormammu would stomp both Shuma and Phoenix Force since he ranks higher than both of them - but we know from the panels that that's not the case ;P

Wow look how powerful Cyclops is

http://marvel.com/characters/bio/1009257/cyclops

#49 Posted by Prince CortSether (2301 posts) - - Show Bio

@Fragneto said:

@Prince CortSether said:

@Sissel: If the marvel.com power grids were considered in battle threads then Dormammu would stomp both Shuma and Phoenix Force since he ranks higher than both of them - but we know from the panels that that's not the case ;P

Wow look how powerful Cyclops is

http://marvel.com/characters/bio/1009257/cyclops

I guess he'd stomp the abstracts like Oblivion then.

http://marvel.com/universe/Oblivion

#50 Posted by demifiend (3575 posts) - - Show Bio

@Fragneto said:

@Prince CortSether said:

@Sissel: If the marvel.com power grids were considered in battle threads then Dormammu would stomp both Shuma and Phoenix Force since he ranks higher than both of them - but we know from the panels that that's not the case ;P

Wow look how powerful Cyclops is

http://marvel.com/characters/bio/1009257/cyclops

lol, cyclops is almost as powerfull as shuma!