I'm giving it to the Phantom Stranger on the grounds that normally, he does not interfere directly with the affairs of the mortal world, but here he is bloodlusted, and I'd wager a lot more powerful (why put him in the Quintessence if he wasn't?).
But that is only my opinion, as the full extent and even the origin of the Phantom Stranger are ambiguous.
The Stranger even the Spectre can only turn him temporarily into a mouse which he can just wait out the spell. Besides he has never lost a fight.
To be fair Spectre defeated Phantom Stranger with barely any effort at all, and he could have done it again just as easily. Phantom Stranger needed a lot of time to undo the spell.
As for the fight, though, Phantom Stranger should win. PS is more on par with the likes of Nabu than Dr. Fate. Plus he is a member of the Quintessence so status wise Phantom Stranger is relatively higher too.
I really REALLY don't know why anyone puts up Phantom Stranger battles.
The Stranger has a MAJOR limitation in DCU magic. He is vastly powerful yes but he can't use it. His role forbids him from intervening in the affairs of others. He is the Presence's hand of Hope in the same way that Spectre is his vengeance. His role is to appear to all men in their time of greatest need and help them choose which road to take. That's why he always turns up when things are bad and tells the good guys what to do. He is all knowing omniscient but he rarely uses ANY power. One of the few times he did choose to use his power he was stripped of it for interceding. That was why Darkseid laughed at hi all throughout the Legends series because he was not a threat to him. In actual battle Phantom Stranger has lost to low level demons, lost to Eclipso at his low levels, he's been bested by vampires for crying out load. The lowest version of Fate has defeated god's.
This is Phantom Stranger against a low level demon. In magic circles a bottom feeder really
This is what happened after that fight, after he chose to actively intervene instead of guide
He was stripped of all his power. he still knew how to work magic and could cast spells that let him teleport (and gave off puffs of brimstone etc) but not really much at all
Dr Fate (any version) would win in a battle because Stranger CAN'T FIGHT. it's not allowed
I'm giving it to the Phantom Stranger on the grounds that normally, he does not interfere directly with the affairs of the mortal world, but here he is bloodlusted, and I'd wager a lot more powerful (why put him in the Quintessence if he wasn't?).
But that is only my opinion, as the full extent and even the origin of the Phantom Stranger are ambiguous.
It's not that he "doesn't" interfere, he can't.
@theps said:
The Stranger even the Spectre can only turn him temporarily into a mouse which he can just wait out the spell. Besides he has never lost a fight.
Actually he's lost quite a few. Even though he hasn't fought many. His win loss ratio would be the worst in comics. Also Spectre only defeated Fate in All Star Squadron 27 by a BFR after Fate fought him for Pages.
@sync1 said:
Phantom Stranger stomps Dr.Fate, Reason:
He knows everything there is to know about Fate (any version) , also every spell he can cast. He knows how to easily counter any of Fate's moves.
How would he counter Fate removing his power. Those Lords in the scan I showed above pulling PS from our plane of existence who stripped him of his power were the Lords of Order. Dr Fate is a Lord of Order (i.e one of the beings from which PS get's his power)
.@Hoarderofhilarity said:
I'm going to say PS because it was my understanding he was second only to spectre in terms of magical ability in the DCU
Lucifer, Micheal, Gabriel and Rama Kushna are just a few above Spectre in magic. Mordru has shown to be greater tha the Stranger also, so has Eclipso (at his higher power levels), Circe and others.
@greenteaforme said:
PS is the only omniscient being in the DCU that we know of. This gives him a huge edge. He also walks time freely, etc.
PS normally doesn't interfere directly, but if he's bloodlusted and going after you, nothing is going to save you.
Dr. Fate is, honestly, out of his league. PS is reaaaaaaally beyond any mortal magic user or Earth god.
Really how about Lucifer, Micheal, Rama Kushna, Pariah? these are all omniscient.
PS can't interfer, it's been shown a few times that when he does he get's stripped of power, so blood lusted really wont help him. Plus his power comes from the very group of which Dr Fate is one.
If PS is so beyond mortal magic users why has he been bested by vampires??
I'm giving it to the Phantom Stranger on the grounds that normally, he does not interfere directly with the affairs of the mortal world, but here he is bloodlusted, and I'd wager a lot more powerful (why put him in the Quintessence if he wasn't?).
But that is only my opinion, as the full extent and even the origin of the Phantom Stranger are ambiguous.
It's not that he "doesn't" interfere, he can't.
@theps said:
The Stranger even the Spectre can only turn him temporarily into a mouse which he can just wait out the spell. Besides he has never lost a fight.
Actually he's lost quite a few. Even though he hasn't fought many. His win loss ratio would be the worst in comics. Also Spectre only defeated Fate in All Star Squadron 27 by a BFR after Fate fought him for Pages.
@sync1 said:
Phantom Stranger stomps Dr.Fate, Reason:
He knows everything there is to know about Fate (any version) , also every spell he can cast. He knows how to easily counter any of Fate's moves.
How would he counter Fate removing his power. Those Lords in the scan I showed above pulling PS from our plane of existence who stripped him of his power were the Lords of Order. Dr Fate is a Lord of Order (i.e one of the beings from which PS get's his power)
.@Hoarderofhilarity said:
I'm going to say PS because it was my understanding he was second only to spectre in terms of magical ability in the DCU
Lucifer, Micheal, Gabriel and Rama Kushna are just a few above Spectre in magic. Mordru has shown to be greater tha the Stranger also, so has Eclipso (at his higher power levels), Circe and others.
@greenteaforme said:
PS is the only omniscient being in the DCU that we know of. This gives him a huge edge. He also walks time freely, etc.
PS normally doesn't interfere directly, but if he's bloodlusted and going after you, nothing is going to save you.
Dr. Fate is, honestly, out of his league. PS is reaaaaaaally beyond any mortal magic user or Earth god.
Really how about Lucifer, Micheal, Rama Kushna, Pariah? these are all omniscient.
PS can't interfer, it's been shown a few times that when he does he get's stripped of power, so blood lusted really wont help him. Plus his power comes from the very group of which Dr Fate is one.
If PS is so beyond mortal magic users why has he been bested by vampires??
Phantom Stranger is TRULY omniscience, on a multiversal level.
He also has all knowledge of the Marvel universe, as shown in a cross-over. I know it's "not canon", but it's a testament to his level of omniscience.
Also, Lucifer and Michael are not omniscience. They have both been deceived, etc. before. I can't speak for Kushna or Pariah.
Phantom Stranger is also one of the few TRULY immoral beings in the DcU.
Also, I've noticed you tend to take the lowest showings of the characters you argue against, and ignore their highest showings. You've done it at least half a dozen times that I've seen. You should become more rounded.
Phantom Stranger is TRULY omniscience, on a multiversal level.
He also has all knowledge of the Marvel universe, as shown in a cross-over. I know it's "not canon", but it's a testament to his level of omniscience.
Also, Lucifer and Michael are not omniscience. They have both been deceived, etc. before. I can't speak for Kushna or Pariah.
Phantom Stranger is also one of the few TRULY immoral beings in the DcU.
Also, I've noticed you tend to take the lowest showings of the characters you argue against, and ignore their highest showings. You've done it at least half a dozen times that I've seen. You should become more rounded.
He's more omnipresent than omniscient, as a means of fulfilling his assigned role. It's his purpose to be the Presence's agent of hope and as such to be there in every being's darkest hours to help them choose the right path. there have been several instances of him not knowing things so he is definitely NOT omniscient on a multiversal level. For one thing he was unaware of something that Rama Kushna was in a bronze age brave and the bold. In that same series when asked after someone refers to the fact that deadman calls "god" a woman (Rama Kushna), Stranger also explains that Brande is a young spirit who does not understand and has not seen many of the aspects of God (the presence - of which Rama Kushna is only one). he also stated in that as well that even HE hadn't seen all the aspects either (so that would also contradict true omniscience). Also omniscience would imply a for knowledge of things not yet occurred which he doesn't have and can be shown on several dozen of occasions.
I'm not touching non canon stories that are and always have been meaningless.
Please do point out times that Lucifer and Micheal have been fooled, though it's not like Stranger hasn't. he was surprised several times by things that Constantine has done and choices he made. he also had no idea which way he would go when his soul was cleansed. On that note Constantine also fooled the presence, surely it's not you contention that the Stranger's knowledge is above his??
His immortality is a gift for the role he fulfills, he was offered a chance to to let go of the role and chose instead to continue with his burden.
It may seem that way but I try to bring a balanced view. I only state the low showings of characters where the majority of posters only seem to be aware of the high ( or worse think they are aware of high that don't exist). I'm a big fan of the Stranger and actually like the character more because of his limitations. You on the other hand seem to always focus on the high end showings and ignore the low. IMO the middle ground is always where a debate should flow from. High end peak showings are usually the limits that a character has to push to achieve. Lower ones are obviously ill prepared or potential low balling. The middle is the only place one should debate a characters abilities from. That and the context of character motivations and limitations. The fact that the Stranger can't intervene (referred to by almost every high level being he's encountered or any being in the know) is a pretty major limitation for a battle. At best he would know how to talk someone down and be unable to be completely killed, not much of a win. he doesn't and never has battled. he wins solely through knowledge, as Fate for 6 to 8 months pre Nu52 was shown to simply attain knowledge by "wanting it" (the Helm was said to be a library of magic that he only needed to be in tune with) he has access to as much knowledge as PS. Earlier versions were shown to also be able to know anything. Hector for example could watch every major power without their knowledge only the Stranger was even aware and that was after he'd been watching him for a while.
@greenteaforme: Sorry it took me a while to find these in my collection
Just wanted to show that he is neither "truly immortal" or completely omniscient. He does doubt himself (VERY rarely) and that means he is never completely certain. other examples would have been during Legends (which was the series I was looking for - came up with this one first).
Just to set the record straight, is he more powerful than Fate? - definitely (at least any version other than Classic which would be border line)
Can fate destroy him? No
The only reason that this goes to Fate IMO is that PS can't actually battle. it's a restriction of the character. It's like Superman who never uses that speed for some BS reason, or Thor who has all this magic power in his hammer and would rather brawl. If he were allowed to use his power in a battle he would whip fate's @$$ but he can't.
@TERMINATORXX said:
Fate Stomps
AHHH NO, this is a plot win only. Fate has no way of doing any lasting damage to the Stranger.
@greenteaforme: Sorry it took me a while to find these in my collection
Just wanted to show that he is neither "truly immortal" or completely omniscient. He does doubt himself (VERY rarely) and that means he is never completely certain. other examples would have been during Legends (which was the series I was looking for - came up with this one first).
Just to set the record straight, is he more powerful than Fate? - definitely (at least any version other than Classic which would be border line)
Can fate destroy him? No
The only reason that this goes to Fate IMO is that PS can't actually battle. it's a restriction of the character. It's like Superman who never uses that speed for some BS reason, or Thor who has all this magic power in his hammer and would rather brawl. If he were allowed to use his power in a battle he would whip fate's @$$ but he can't.
@TERMINATORXX said:
Fate Stomps
AHHH NO, this is a plot win only. Fate has no way of doing any lasting damage to the Stranger.
Yeah, I'll agree with that.
I was going with the fun of the thread and assuming he's going to fight with no restrictions. But if you want to look at it that way, I'll take it. Agree with all those points.
But his omniscience varies from story to story too. I think it's a whim of the writer type of thing.
Phantom Stranger is TRULY omniscience, on a multiversal level.
What the hell are you talking about? There has never been any implication that the Stranger is omniscient. He moves a lot, he see a lot of things, he's learned a lot over the centuries of his existence but that's not omniscience. There are plenty of things the Stranger doesn't know.
Phantom Stranger is TRULY omniscience, on a multiversal level.
What the hell are you talking about? There has never been any implication that the Stranger is omniscient. He moves a lot, he see a lot of things, he's learned a lot over the centuries of his existence but that's not omniscience. There are plenty of things the Stranger doesn't know.
Also, Fate wins.
It's in his character write-up to be omniscient.
Which is why in the cross-over, he had absolute knowledge of all Marvel characters and their powers.
It's in his write up to be wise and mysterious, which is a far cry from all-knowing. There has, again, never been any implication that he's omniscient, and if a retarded crossover is all you have to go on for your argument, you may want to reconsider.
Any of the Endless, high level angels, aspects of God are all easily more scient than the Stranger.
It's in his write up to be wise and mysterious, which is a far cry from all-knowing. There has, again, never been any implication that he's omniscient, and if a retarded crossover is all you have to go on for your argument, you may want to reconsider.
Any of the Endless, high level angels, aspects of God are all easily more scient than the Stranger.
He has knowledge of people, and things, that he's never encountered, simply through his omniscience.
The crossover was just an example of this power being put into use - having knowledge of the Marvel U.
Don't call things retarded, either. It's not classy.
He has knowledge of people, and things, that he's never encountered, simply through his omniscience.
Like when? And no, Marvel U doesn't count. Not the least because Krona's actions actually caused the two universes and timelines to merge into one for a while.
And sorry, but I call them like I see them, and that crossover was pretty damn stupid.
He has knowledge of people, and things, that he's never encountered, simply through his omniscience.
Like when? And no, Marvel U doesn't count. Not the least because Krona's actions actually caused the two universes and timelines to merge into one for a while.
And sorry, but I call them like I see them, and that crossover was pretty damn stupid.
Like always. It's what he does. It's basically all he does.
Comics as a whole are pretty stupid. Hulk and Thor are really stupid too. But they still exist.
Like always. It's what he does. It's basically all he does.
Like never. He knows things because he's been around enough to learn. The Stranger is not omniscient. If you're going to keep claiming he is, start presenting evidence.
@greenteaforme said:
Comics as a whole are pretty stupid. Hulk and Thor are really stupid too. But they still exist.
Like always. It's what he does. It's basically all he does.
Like never. He knows things because he's been around enough to learn. The Stranger is not omniscient. If you're going to keep claiming he is, start presenting evidence.
@greenteaforme said:
Comics as a whole are pretty stupid. Hulk and Thor are really stupid too. But they still exist.
That's... completely not my point.
In your opinion, the crossover was stupid, which makes it even more invalid than a normal crossover.
I think Thor and Hulk are stupid, but they're not invalid.
I think you're pretty invalid too. But, here you are.
In your opinion, the crossover was stupid, which makes it even more invalid than a normal crossover.
I think Thor and Hulk are stupid, but they're not invalid.
I think you're pretty invalid too. But, here you are.
I made myself laugh =3
No, I think the crossover was invalid because it was a crossover. I said it was stupid because... well it was stupid. I shouldn't need a reason to point that out. If I implied that it's even more invalid because of it, that was my poor choice of words.
Although, if you define 'stupid' as 'ignorant of the characters' previously established attributes and history' (and on this site that is a common definition) you could make an argument that it's invalid because it's stupid, but that was not the argument I was trying to make.
Also, I think your opinion of me is invalid. TAKE THAT!!!
In your opinion, the crossover was stupid, which makes it even more invalid than a normal crossover.
I think Thor and Hulk are stupid, but they're not invalid.
I think you're pretty invalid too. But, here you are.
I made myself laugh =3
No, I think the crossover was invalid because it was a crossover. I said it was stupid because... well it was stupid. I shouldn't need a reason to point that out. If I implied that it's even more invalid because of it, that was my poor choice of words.
Although, if you define 'stupid' as 'ignorant of the characters' previously established attributes and history' (and on this site that is a common definition) you could make an argument that it's invalid because it's stupid, but that was not the argument I was trying to make.
Also, I think your opinion of me is invalid. TAKE THAT!!!
I invalidated you before that, making your following opinion of me pre-invalidated. I don't even need to counter invalidate.
Under Alan Grant, The Phantom Stranger had enough power to destroy Lobo but didn't - not out of inability but because he didn't feel it was right to interfere. In one of his possible origins, he stops a woman from being assaulted for what it's worth. When he teamed up with Batman, he used something similar to the Penance Stare on a guy.
So maybe some depictions of him can't fight, but to say he can't period is a pretty bold blanket statement. It would depend on the writer.
Also, I'm rereading the issues in question and the reason Phantom Stranger is depowered isn't because he used his powers; it was because he lost faith. Even depowered he knew some magic, and fought Eclipso.
Under Alan Grant, The Phantom Stranger had enough power to destroy Lobo but didn't - not out of inability but because he didn't feel it was right to interfere. In one of his possible origins, he stops a woman from being assaulted for what it's worth. When he teamed up with Batman, he used something similar to the Penance Stare on a guy.
So maybe some depictions of him can't fight, but to say he can't period is a pretty bold blanket statement. It would depend on the writer.
@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia said:
Also, I'm rereading the issues in question and the reason Phantom Stranger is depowered isn't because he used his powers; it was because he lost faith. Even depowered he knew some magic, and fought Eclipso.
This is much more in line with the PS that I am familiar with. I was taking the other user's claims on faith, because I honestly haven't been keeping up with the character very much at all, just here and there.
The act of intervening is the "lack of faith. that was only one of 4 (maybe 5) times he's been depowered for doing so. He's also been stopped by the voice of the presence twice when about to intervene.
The turning of Etrigan back to blood was if I'm not mistaken when he was controlled by morgan Le Fey. His free will was being taken away so any action of PS wasn't stopping free will. That's usually when it does happen. Not sure about the Lobo one but the only time I recall a penance stare was well before COIE I'd say bordering on Silver Age. He did intervene then but had no where near the pwoer levels of later years.
Honestly I have seen very few Phantom Stranger offensive attacks to say he could really put down Doctor Fate... Fate has a lot more feats to his credit. Overall I guess it could be a decent fight though
check what exactly? the only thing he had done before the Lords of Order came to take him was actively intervene. up until page 10 he had been fulfilling his normal role trying to make the cult see the ligh as to what their leader was. as soo. as he actually fought the LOO come for him. the exchange between him and them asside he had done nothing else that could be called a loss of faith. that combined with the times he referenced it in his later appearances in Hell Blazer, Books of Magic and in Swamp thing he stated i was because he had oversteped his perview. I still don't see how that can be anything else. I'll admit as DCU magic based characters go I have a lot less of PS appearances ( by %) than other magic based characters ( hell there are a few Marvel magi. characters I have more of as a %). I have between 150- 200 of his compared to over 200 of Spectre, around 400 of Dr Fate, over 500 of Alan Scot, a couple hundred each of Cap Marvel, Etrigan, Dr Occult, several hundred of WW. so there are wholes of course. I haven't seen much more than 1/4 of his. but everything I've seen supports my stance when taken from the larger mythology of the. haracter. not that it matters anymore as OP has removed the restriction. still it leaves it purely to speculation as we have almost no feats of him actually figting.
Never mind, I just had a look. (damn lucky I re-organized part of my collection a few weeks ago and knew the Demon series was on one of three shelves of a book case, cause before then I wouldn't have had a clue where to start).
In the Conjurors, DC has him as the Father of Magic, the first human ever to wield arcane forces through his medallion and these arcane forces he then shares with humanity. So, he was first in that story. Still not sure if he could "beat" anybody.
Gotta say if the scan I loaded above is the one your thinking of where PS can but chooses not to kill Lobo, it sorta proves my point. I may have had the semantics wrong but as I've seen it PS's role is to sustain in a way the ability of mortals to determine their own fate. The propagation of free will. As such I don't believe he can do anything to take that away. Any story to the contrary IMO is just bad writing.
@theps: ?? The Stranger is and always has been an enigma. he has multiple origins and DC has never committed to a single one.He has been said to be like Galactus a being that comes from the existence that was before the universe (the previous universe - in that there have been some instances in Classic Fate where Nabu and the LOO/LOC were said to be the same). He has been described as a former angel of heaven that didn't choose sides, that fell but not as far as those who dwell in hell, and walks the middle. He was a few from the old testament (the wandering jew) who learned magic over centuries and learned much more.
All these have been referred to many times (there are a few others). Etrigan has remarked on a few occasions how his fall was not as great as some and how "pretty he is" for a fallen angel, as has FOF and Lucifer. DC deliberately never choose one single origin for him as it would take away the mystery that shrouds him.
There are also other stories where the Lords of Order and Chaos are a part of the creation myth. One where the Stranger explains (and I can't for the life of me remember who to or when) that even they are not aware of their part, that they were created by a higher power so that the energy of their conflict would spark creation. He has also explained on a few occasions how magic is in and through all things. that the mana can be manipulated but that to use it for vast magic requires to either draw it through a talisman or familiar or the Lords of Order/Chaos. That wielding that much power through a mortal form could do irrevocable damage or destroy it. That statement has been supported by several other characters and in other places in DCU magic. In Classic Fate tales Nabu explains that his choice to take on a mortal form limited him and was why he eventually had to rest and could no longer wield great power. In the post COIE mini where Kent (original fate) had to pass on the mantel to Eric Straus it was because he had wielded far to much power through a mortal form in a short period of time. In the Straus Run Nabu in Kent form explains several times how he is limited because of his form and that doing anything vastly powerful would destroy his shell and scatter his essence. Spectre explained to Classic fate in one of their battles that the thing that limits fate (and not Spectre) was the mortal form through which his power went. something like " I am a spirit freed of human limitations that is my strength, while you are a lord of order incarnate in a mortal host and that is your weakness".
The greater mythology within the DCU would indicate that magic does not come from PS to mortals.
My first post on this thread was a slight about using Phantoms stranger in a battle. Think I'll take that back, since this has become one of the more in-depth discussions I've had on my favorite character types. Normally when a thread about Fate/Stranger? Dr Strange/ Hellstrom ? etc etc is put up it either does or degenerates into fanboyism at a superliminal speed. ( Marvel fans saying Strange stomps, DC fans saying Fate stomps and me stuck in the middle with a stalemate)
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