PH: Spawn (Sirfizzwhiz) vs Larfleeze (Hulkage) VOTING

@hulkage: Np, excellent job btw

Hulkage gets it in my vote. Better counters, more of a solid argument too

Good job on both of your counts.

@cosmicallyaware1@boschepg@jashro44@wyldsong@granitesoldier@laflux@beatboks1@iragexcudder@juiceboks@wyldsong@thetruebarryallen@lukehero@tparks@slimj87d

Tag out for votes, you all might like this one. Not that long, but interesting battle none the less.

well... read the whole thing......... i say...

for @hulkage, i did not see his claim of 'souls of superhumans are powerful than normal humans' to be true ..... this "That's obviously not true. If a soul is just a soul then why couldn't Mephisto take Thor's? Yeah there was some asgardian magic tied up in there somewhere but in comics it has been outright stated that some souls are stronger than others." .... explanation is not convincing at all... you yourself contradicted that thor have asgardian magic to strengthen his soul... so how can that be applicable for every superhuman (pointing to those whom larfleeze have assimilated)?

Jean Grey TP's people all of the time, that doesn't stop people from mindraping her (Onslaught). So just because you have a few low level showings with souls doesn't mean you can compete with Larfleeze's.

onslaught could tp jean because his tp was actually greater than jean's... but i could not find larfleeze's soul manipulation be better than spawn's as i stated above..... as this was your ONLY way to win.. you should've strengthen it a bit more.

for @sirfizzwhizz, i did not see feats to suggest he can release souls of the constructs from the battery (he doesn't know where the battery is right?)... i did not see the feat to suggest how he can find larfleeze's location to teleport near him either (as hiding at some spot and sending his army to deal with spawn was one of hulkage's battle plan).........

and finally... tp could've been a game winner... but i simply did not see spawn TPing anyone with tp resistance (which, hulkage showed that larfleeze has)

so finally.... my verdict is, this fight will go on and on between the orange lantern corps and the hell spawn army even after this whole tournament finishes..... it's a STALEMATE for me... sorry if i let anyone down with it.. :)

Good CaV from both debaters.

My vote however, would go to @hulkage. I felt he better elaborated on how LF would win the battle, and I felt that SirFizz kept insisting that TP would work despite being shown scans that LF has TP defense.

Again, good debate from both sides. And I learned about Spawn, so kudos to Sir Fizz for accurately portraying his abilities.

@sirfizzwhizz: @hulkage: after reading through this twice, I still can't decide. Gimme a bit, but I'll definitely vote. I have to read again and really dissect some statements.....if you even get this tag though, site is glitchy as all hell lately

@cosmicallyaware1: Yeah I'm not getting any notifications but take your time...

My vote doesn't count....but it would be for hulkage, BC he had clear cut counters.

But this battle would go on and on lol

And @sirfizzwhizz good job for explaining spawn you did him justice and I learned crazy things abt him i had to look him up

@scootybali14: Why would your vote not count sir?

@speedster101: Under 500 post

@hulkage: Aaaahhhh ok I see

@hulkage: You get my vote. You stomped the hell out of SirWhiz.

Thanks, glad ya learn some things. Here is a site for Spawn as well that was made. Has feats for Angela, Spawn, Violator, and Malbolgia. Enjoy.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/spawn-tribute-thread-1463736/

Thanks man good shit

Knowledge is power

Knowledge is power, guard it well.

While I am not eligible to vote. I hope people are voting based on the arguments made and not about how they feel about the posters. My vote would have gone to SirFizz even though I have not like his opinion in other topics.

@nomar: It's pretty common knowledge to not vote based on outside bias. Have a little faith in CV xD

Tie. The whole limitless power and draining was just everywhere but it was a very good debate

@nomar: thanks for the vote even if it does not count :)

I need a better reason if your vote is going to count.

alright, voting time. After reading this three times I have come to a conclusion. I'm going ahgainst the grain here and giving my vote, and insane props to @sirfizzwhizz. Ultimately I feel that his was the most convincing argument, and his counters were more structurally sound. Don't get me wrong, the argument for larfeeze was solid. However in the end, I was personally more convinced by Fizzy that Spawn takes the victory......................bam..............drops mic, and walks away............

@ssj_god: @cosmicallyaware1: @iragexcudder: Thanks guys fpr the votes :) Glad it was a good enough read.

Overall great debate @sirfizzwhizz good job representing spawn. In the future you should add more variation to your word choices reading the words "mind rape" every 2 sentences was a bit distasteful. My last sentence will not hold any weight in my decision though. The layout of your posts was good, you had a lot of scans but I feel you did not do the best job of showing how spawn wins. You could be a bit repetitive at times, and you brought up spawn having unlimited power a lot. I feel that you did not do the best job of countering your opponents arguments and counter arguments.

@hulkage You did a good job countering a lot of his points. You did not have as big a scan/feat output but I feel your argument was good enough that you did not need them. I found your comments flowed nicely and they were enjoyable to read. I really have nothing bad to say about your argument, you did a great job.

Well you both did a great job and I hate to pick a winner I think I will have to go with @hulkage. I feel that he did a better job at countering his opponents points. Both of you did great though.

Fair enough, try to stop that in the future, just so use to it being a thing in the past , though many people just do not like the term these day.

It is not necessarily that I am a prude, word variation is just a big part of writing. Also the word just does not sit well with me, I detest the thought of rape and even hearing it in this context is a bit unsettling.

Just my thoughts, you do not have to change the way you write because of lil old me. I did not factor that into my decision btw, that would be unfair.

@sirfizzwhizz: @hulkage:

I think this is really even but Im going to choose a winner anyways.

SirFizzwhizz presented Spawn with even ability. Not too high not too low

Hulkage presented his character with the ability to handle powerful beings, thus making the battle good.

since I think both had their own aspects of debating, Im going to infer some stuff. Im not the expert in either but from what I know and I hope you guys can follow

Spawn as a Hell Lord is definitely in the realm of power with LarFleeze. Spawn is above Daimon Hellstorm, who is a Marvel Hell Lord. Mephisto, Satannish, and Daimon are all powerful in their own right but nowhere near Skyfather level. By Marvel standards, Skyfather magic levels (with some anomalies) were set when Ohstur left and Set started killing everyone else. Mephisto and Morduck Kurious came from the divided power of the slaying. If they arent in their own dimension, they dont approach Skyfather and usually are presented as high Herald level

Now this is how I see it from the DC perspective. Its been awhile since I read LarFleeze but when Blackest Night came out, LarFleeze, and the other Lanterns, were having trouble with the effects of the Black Lantern. Etrigan, a Hell Lord himself was thought to be a good counter to the effects of and took a punch straight through the chest unaffected. I could be wrong as of late but this is how I see it

Hell Lord Spawn to Etrigan

Etrigan > Black Lanterns

LarFleeze struggled with Black Lanterns

Spawn=Etrigan > Black Lanterns > LarFleeze

SirFizzWhizz wins

Scoring

@hulkage (3)

• Speedster101
• Eisenfauste
• OrdinaryAlan
• SithLantern93 (pending)

@sirfizzwhizz (3)

• cosmicallyaware1
• boschepg
• NaughtyTitan

@boschepg: Wait...what?

Umm naughty titan voted for me......

Well you both did a great job and I hate to pick a winner I think I will have to go with @hulkage. I feel that he did a better job at countering his opponents points. Both of you did great though.

It should be

@hulkage (4)

• Speedster101
• Eisenfauste
• OrdinaryAlan
• SithLantern93 (pending)
• NaughtyTitan

@sirfizzwhizz (2)

• cosmicallyaware1
• boschepg

@hulkage: oh, my bad. I saw in SFW's quote that he'd tagged SFW so I got the wrong impression.

@boschepg: Etrigan is just immune to the heart ripping, like the Shade. I'm not sure that every demon is also immune. You're using ABC logic, and I think that's not the best argument to use for vote. Yes, the point itself is good, but I don't think, just because Etrigan is immune to BL he's more powerful than Larfleeze. In fact I consider the P52 Larfleeze close to Skyfather level, while Etrigan should be a high herald.

@thenewbluebeetle007:

I'm not even trying to be a hater or something...but Boschepg? What were you voting on? Neither guy brought up any of the points you seem to be voting on. I'm actually quite confused on how you voted. Unless I blacked out while I was reading and missed something: neither guy brought up black lanterns or Etrigan or any such comparison...soo....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Any who moving on to my own vote.

Grades:

This was a good CAV, and I am happy to have read. Remember all of these votes are merely opinions & like my college professor once told me: "Opinions are like ***holes, everyone has one." But, if you feel like you learned something from my opinion, then I hope that helps you in some future CAV or tourney. Congrats, on to the grades.

Intros:

Word Smithing:

Counters:

Scans:

Overall:

@lukehero:

you know... you have to chose a winner.. based on which character would win as per you (only depending on the debate presented of course).... i'm not trying to be an antagonist.... but i did not found any indication on how larfleeze going to win the battle on hulkage's behalf from your post..... read my post (#54) and tell me i'm wrong....... many people just voted here... almost nobody gave any real reason depending on the fact presented.. that how either one of these characters are gonna deliver the killer blow.

@ssj_god: Actually IMO Hulkage did.

So here we have a being who has access to limitless energy and the force that holds all creation together getting assimilated and his soul taken to be apart of the Orange Lanterns. This means Spawns durability and regen literally mean nothing because Larfleeze doesn't need to attack him physically.

And it gets even better... Larfleeze doesn't even need to be in the vicinity. He can control his whole corps with thoughts as seen when he sent them to attack the entire blue lantern corps. And his corps members are each more than capable of taking his soul and assimilating him as seen when they almost got John Stewart (he was saved by Fatality).

In fact he mentioned it straight from the get go in his intro and then expounded up on it. Now whether you believe him or not is up to you. Sirfizz whizz listed some options too such as mind rape, but I just feel Hulkage countered enough to provide a strong argument.

sirfizzwhizz showed spawn having powerful soul manipulation ability (he's the hell lord)... at least more powerful than larfleeze.... assimilation was hulkage's only attack process.. but i did not see him assimilate anyone with stronger soul or have the ability to manipulate souls.... so i don't see the reason to believe he could here either..

@ssj_god: Well opinions are opinions, everyone is gonna vote differently. I've already listed why I voted.

yeah i saw... just pointed out that i didn't saw the killer blow (which is the most important in a CaV debate) based on which you decided the winner... well.. almost nobody mentioned it here.... and i didn't find any good killer blows to decide the winner myself...

@ssj_god: Well, I thought Hulkage killing blows were pretty darn good & for the record being able to manipulate souls is not a lock solid defense to having your own soul manipulated. You would need to show a specif character trait, power, or counter for it. Just as having TP powers is not a defense to being TPed. There are many TP users that actually don't have much of a TP defense: The Mandarian is a good example.

yes it is a defense he can manipulate his own soul for defense... same with TP... only way to effect them are being a greater soul manipulator or a greater TP.... which i did not see here...

@ssj_god:

yes it is a defense he can manipulate his own soul for defense... same with TP... only way to effect them are being a greater soul manipulator or a greater TP.... which i did not see here...

So Gorgon & Mr. X get an automatic pass on being TPed since they are both TP users? No. As far as Spawn manipulating his own soul to defend himself, that's not even something Sirfizzwhizz got into to, unless I missed something. He just simply stated Larfreeze couldn't do that to Spawn because Spawn is a powerful Soul Manipulator. So, it's really besides the point & null in void.

and how are you giving this point?.. i don't remember hulkage bringing it up....... as far as from an outside point of view... you have to be a greater soul manipulator to manipulate another soul manipulator's soul... you have to be a greater reality warper to reality trap another reality warper..... same with other abilities.

@ssj_god: I don't need to give the point, I didn't believe in Sir Fizz Whizz's counter of simply being a powerf soul manipulator. Just because someone brings up a counter doesn't make it good or believable. I can bring up Superman being really fast as a counter to Odin's magic, that doesn't make it believable at all, just because I said it. I only brought up my point, because you brought up the latter.

you have to be a greater soul manipulator to manipulate another soul manipulator's soul... you have to be a greater reality warper to reality trap another reality warper..... same with other abilities.

The Reality Warper to Soul & TP manupliation is apples to car parts. It's not similar at all since a reality warpers power is based on pure power scaling, nothing else matters. When it comes to Soul Manipulation power & Soul Manipulation Defense, they are 2 very different things.

Purple Man & The Mandrian are both powerful mind manipulators, either could get TPed by someone lower on the power level like Sage because neither have shown a defense to it. The same logic applies to soul manipulation. Really neither Larfreeze or Spawn showed much of a Soul Manipulation defense. The fact is IMO Hulkage not only pulled the trigger on the soul manipulation first, but he showed more of a spefic example and got more in the nitty gritty ABC's of how he would get it done.

@jas0: @lukehero:

I thought it was even debate. I just used my knowledge of what I know to select a winner

@boschepg: Coolio.

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@lukehero:

i know everyone have a different opinion... i'm not agruing against it.. i just wanted to know how you believed larfleeze would deliver the killer blow

The Reality Warper to Soul & TP manupliation is apples to car parts. It's not similar at all since a reality warpers power is based on pure power scaling, nothing else matters. When it comes to Soul Manipulation power & Soul Manipulation Defense, they are 2 very different things.

you know.. firstly.. it's a complete assumption of yours.. and secondly... hulkage did not brought up this point... so on this one.. you are not saying about the debate on hand...

and no.. i don't see the logic in your theory... a soul manipulator should be having a defense against soul manipulation.. i have not seen anything to show larfleeze can assimilate someone with a stronger soul than normal.... but that's my opinion none the less.

@ssj_god: Not really. As I've just explained, every TP user does not have TP defense. In fact many TP users have been TPed themselves. What would make you think a soul manipulator has defense against soul manipulation automatically? Any who, that's my vote. I'm sticking to it. Good talk.

i'm was not trying to change your vote..lol

What would make you think a soul manipulator has defense against soul manipulation automatically?

so.. you have anything to suggest they does not? TP users does have TP defense greater than normal persons... and reality manipulators needs to be stronger than others to make a reality trap.

@ssj_god: Both of you voted differently for different reasons, did you really have to start an argument and continue that argument even though luke gave you multiple outs?

@ssj_god: Not really. Mandiaran has TP powers, he still got TPed by pyslocke. Gorgon nor Mr. X have shown any TP defense they both can still get TP. Reality manipulation is about the power level and how much and how great of an affect they can create. TP Power & TP Defense are two different things mate. You can be a world level telepath, that doesn't mean you have world level TP defense unless you have actually done it. Just because you have a power, doesn't mean you automatically get a pass on defense.

umm.. we're not arguing on the votes.. we're arguing on a topic.. which is argument worthy

if you are a world level telepath... then you would have greater than normal human TP defense.. and if you mean talking telepathically.. then i don't consider that an offensive tp..... and we are talking about soul manipulation... you are assuming it is more like TP than reality manipulation.. any reason behind that?

and i think SFW said about other hell lords couldn't manipulate spawn (he even defeated some of them).. even though manipulating souls of their entire realm is their main job... don't you think that's a significant defense?