@DocFatalis said:
I still boycott AvX. This series sucks and is doing more harm to the MU than anything else.
Just like Civil War and Deadpool kills the Marvel Universe.
Yea Marvel isn't doing to hot.
PF Emma Frost vs Silver Surfer
@Jayfournines: well, considering how thor has been written lately, then B would definitely be the answer.
i mean, hes absorbed and re-directed phoenix power before, and mjolnir can absorb galaxy busting power, so its not like it should have been a damn problem for him at all.
with that being said, AvX being a pathetically written comic and thor being used as a measuring stick would also be a great answer
@Lord_Moldemvort said:
@Jayfournines: well, considering how thor has been written lately, then B would definitely be the answer.
i mean, hes absorbed and re-directed phoenix power before, and mjolnir can absorb galaxy busting power, so its not like it should have been a damn problem for him at all.
with that being said, AvX being a pathetically written comic and thor being used as a measuring stick would also be a great answer
I gotta agree with you on all points man, poor Thor, I hate how they took this awesome character and made him into an insane jobber
@Jayfournines: yeah, it sucks man. especially since hes one of my favorite characters. but, theres not a lot i can do about that.
either way, this is a fight thats going to surfer rather easily in my opinion. he should be able to do everything thor should have done in their fight, like drain her then snap her neck or something
@Lord_Moldemvort said:
@chiq: do you have any scans of that?
it can also be said that thor, besides being written bad, was also holding back a lot in that arc. hes destroyed planets with mjolnir before and has also re-direct the phoenixs own power against her and KOed her with it. im not convinced hes going to be humiliated like that against opponents with 1/5 of it when hes fared better against the force itself
but enough about thor. why do you think emma wins this? against a guy like surfer her telepathy is useless, and i dont know what else she has. surfer can drain the force from her, then 1 shot her. i see this being incredibly one sided
I don't but that battle happend in Excalibur. Rachel transported him into a dead galaxy if i remember correctly and they started tossing planets and moons at each other. If anything Thor redirecting the blast of PF rachel against her, makes Rachel the jobber.
I simply think surfer< 1/5 of the PF.
Emma.
@chiq: keep in mind thor has done this twice, as well as others owning her, AS well as her barely having anything to back her up, so i think rachel just sucks
also this fight is with EMMA. if you can tell me what feats she even has that proves she can do anything to surfer, then maybe she has a better chance. until then, im inclined to believe he simply drains the force from her so she cant reform then blows her head up or something like that
@Lord_Moldemvort: It is Emma, with the PF. She's only been in a few issues. We saw what Namor did to the Avengers including Rulk, Thor and Strange. The only thing so far capable of really hurting the P5 were Wanda, Hope and the P5 fighting amongst themselves. All the p5 have consistently owned Thor with help, the Surfer has not. They are clearly being written to be above Thor level in power. I would personally give and edge to the Surfer over Thor but their battles against each other have shown them to be peers. Thor also did better against the Worthy then the Surfer...( yes I know its plot related, but it happend) Surfer has also more low showings then PF emma.
Silver Surfer probably.
@chiq: you cant really say that. for one thing, thor wasnt written to anything but being a jobber in that arc. i didnt see him use any of his effective abilities whatsoever. you could say their written to be above thors level when hes using, what? like a fraction of his power, otherwise im willing to say he could have taken them all on alone. thor and surfer are indeed peers, except thor has used a hell of a lot more power against surfer. and i dont recall surfer having a lot low showings either honestly. the one with black panther was obviously poor writing, and i shouldnt even have to explain red hulk
my point is, what exactly do you think emma is going to do here to win? whats in her arsenal? against a guy like surfer, her telepathy is useless so what else is there?
as far as her durability goes, thor easily shattered her and she only reformed because of the force. surfer can easily drain that out of her. ( thor SHOULD have done that, but then again i dont know what the hell he was doing in that arc ). from there he can do anything really.
thats why i think silver surfer stomps
@Lord_Moldemvort said:
@chiq: you cant really say that. for one thing, thor wasnt written to anything but being a jobber in that arc. i didnt see him use any of his effective abilities whatsoever. you could say their written to be above thors level when hes using, what? like a fraction of his power, otherwise im willing to say he could have taken them all on alone. thor and surfer are indeed peers, except thor has used a hell of a lot more power against surfer. and i dont recall surfer having a lot low showings either honestly. the one with black panther was obviously poor writing, and i shouldnt even have to explain red hulk
my point is, what exactly do you think emma is going to do here to win? whats in her arsenal? against a guy like surfer, her telepathy is useless so what else is there?
as far as her durability goes, thor easily shattered her and she only reformed because of the force. surfer can easily drain that out of her. ( thor SHOULD have done that, but then again i dont know what the hell he was doing in that arc ). from there he can do anything really.
thats why i think silver surfer stomps
Emma has 1/5 of the PF force so she should be capable of doing nearly anything. Colossus was able to give whales legs and they were terraforming the planet, so as powersets go they should be able to do nearly anything they want. Colossus also said they could raise the dead and bring people back to life. The only thing they can't do apparently is reactivate the stupid mutant x-gene due to bad writing.lol
I think Thor and Binary did try to drain the PF in secret Avengers, they failed.
So i think 1/5 of pf >then S.S while you don't. It's cool...
@chiq: but does that necessarily put them above surfer? destroying planets isnt a problem for him at all, and he has a lot of other abilities. the point is, they havent shown a lot. i understand its somewhat plausible to assume if others can do that with a fraction of the force, then emma can too, but she hasnt shown us anything.
when did thor try to drain them? i dont recall him ever attempting to do that
my whole argument is what is emma going to do here? like i said her telepathy is useless, and she doesnt really have anything else. if you can tell me what EMMA can do based on HER feats, then maybe i can understand your reasoning more. your entitled to your own opinion, but you havent made many points
silver surfer on the other hand DOES have feats to prove he can win easily. for instance, he could drain her, or blast her with cosmic attacks, or trap her in his board, or create a black hole in her face. hes got the feats
@Lord_Moldemvort said:
@chiq: but does that necessarily put them above surfer? destroying planets isnt a problem for him at all, and he has a lot of other abilities. the point is, they havent shown a lot. i understand its somewhat plausible to assume if others can do that with a fraction of the force, then emma can too, but she hasnt shown us anything.
when did thor try to drain them? i dont recall him ever attempting to do that
my whole argument is what is emma going to do here? like i said her telepathy is useless, and she doesnt really have anything else. if you can tell me what EMMA can do based on HER feats, then maybe i can understand your reasoning more. your entitled to your own opinion, but you havent made many points
silver surfer on the other hand DOES have feats to prove he can win easily. for instance, he could drain her, or blast her with cosmic attacks, or trap her in his board, or create a black hole in her face. hes got the feats
and the force within her has the feats and power to not be affected by him. The Phoenix has been stated and shown to be a greater source of power than where he gets his power from (Galactus) and there is even on panel statements by him saying the true source of his power is from the plane of reality (the astral plane) that the Phoenix is the source of. If she had the IG would we argue he can beat her because he has feats and she doesn't? He won't win easily if at all.
@LordOfAllHumans: based on what? she beat him when he was starving and didnt even want to fight. i recall another time where he was erasing her from existence
and what did you say he gets his power from her? thats obviously false, phoenix power isnt the power cosmic
except we actually do know what IG can do, so im not sure what you were implying there
if you can prove to me surfer cant simply drain the force from her, then this is a stomp in his favor. theres absolutely nothing emma can do to him, and theres a lot surfer can do to her
@Lord_Moldemvort: The Phoenix has infinite power Galactus does not. Galactus is a lot weaker, probably one of the weakest cosmic entities because none of the others have have such a crippling weakness in the form of constantly needing to seek out food.
Prove to me that he can absorb the Phoenix or this is a heel shaped stomp.
@Dextersinister: hah, the phoenix doesnt have unlimited power. not sure where you got that from
im also not sure why you have the impression hes fighting the phoenix. this is EMMA with a fraction of the force, and that is a fraction he can easily drain from her
even then what is she going to do? her telepathy is useless and he can go intangible and dodge any of her attacks. this is quite the stomp in surfers favor
@Lord_Moldemvort said:
@LordOfAllHumans: based on what? she beat him when he was starving and didnt even want to fight. i recall another time where he was erasing her from existence
and what did you say he gets his power from her? thats obviously false, phoenix power isnt the power cosmic
except we actually do know what IG can do, so im not sure what you were implying there
if you can prove to me surfer cant simply drain the force from her, then this is a stomp in his favor. theres absolutely nothing emma can do to him, and theres a lot surfer can do to her
She beat him before a meal and it didn't matter as he stated the fight is what left him near death and her powers were only growing during the fight. Logical deduction the power of the Phoenix will tax his limited reserve but her power will not be taxed.
It's so easy to say he was starving and that is how she won, but in actuality a starving Galactus is still powerful enough to destroy multiple galaxies. So he is weak by no stretch of the imagination fed or not.
Do you recall this because you read the comic, or because you read another person say this? He was unable to erase her. That was the point, he was attempting to remove the Phoenix from it's chosen vessel (Rachel) not erase her and the universe was blinking out as a result. He was fully fed and prepped to do this, he was told his actions would turn the universe into void, prior to this he said himself that the Phoenix had the power to do this without his intervention and was told from that void she would re-spark creation. So he can't erase her and was unable to because she represents the cycle that makes sure their will be life even if all is extinguished. He learned her place in existence and it's part of the balance we was created to ensure, so by the nature of the universe he can't erase the Phoenix she is more essential to what he is a part of than he is.
You can't prove he can a drain her at all let alone defeat her by doing this. With the shattering of her physical form we have seen that even without the power of the Phoenix within her actual body, Emma was still able to exist as a Phoenix host and reconstruct herself. So he "drains" the Phoenix from her body, but the Phoenix bonds with the consciousness, so now what happens when she is still present within the energy he drains?
@Lord_Moldemvort said:
@Dextersinister: hah, the phoenix doesnt have unlimited power. not sure where you got that from
im also not sure why you have the impression hes fighting the phoenix. this is EMMA with a fraction of the force, and that is a fraction he can easily drain from her
even then what is she going to do? her telepathy is useless and he can go intangible and dodge any of her attacks. this is quite the stomp in surfers favor
It's pretty much canon that the phoenix itself has unlimited power they mention it almsot every bloody time it shows up.
Yes I am aware she has a fraction 1/5 at worst 1/2 at best if you need exact numbers either way it's much higher than the whatever tiny amount the Surfer has of Galactus.
She can do whatever she can think of, she's a phoenix host.
@LordOfAllHumans:
You can't prove he can a drain her at all let alone defeat her by doing this. With the shattering of her physical form we have seen that even without the power of the Phoenix within her actual body, Emma was still able to exist as a Phoenix host and reconstruct herself.
Personally, I think she feigned shattering to egg Thor on or set up for her next attack considering she was playing with him the entire fight. Emma's regular diamond form has already withstood attacks from the Dreaming Celestial's head and WWH without shattering. Thor under his own power could barely dent a cylinder of adamantium and with her Phoenix upgrade, X-23 couldn't even scratch her so I don't know why Thor would be able to shatter her unless she wanted it to happen and she did show control over her fragments so it was obvious she could control her structure meaning should pull a stunt like that.
Just my opinion on the matter.
@LordOfAllHumans: yeah, and frankly considering the amount of low showings galactus has at his weaker states, thats really not that impressive. when has a weak galactus ever shown to be a galaxy buster? not sure where you got that info, but its obviously false
either way, galactus doesnt need to completely kill her off to defeat her. she has proven to be the spark of life, but thats honestly it. in my opinion i still place a well fed galactus above her any day as far as who can defeat who more
when has the phoenix stayed within the host after its been drained? can you name any instances? as far as im concerned, she could only reform due to the force, so if its removed from her, then thats it. besides, its not like the whole force was in her, it was only a fraction of it
and hell even then im not sure why that would make such a big difference. can you explain what shes going to do? her telepathy is useless, and surfer can go intangible or dodge any of her attacks.
when emma can survive a black hole to the face or planet busting attacks, let me know
@Dextersinister: so? things are stated all the time in comics, doesnt mean its actually true
im not sure why you seem to be basing things off percentages, how about actual feats? surfer with some of power cosmic has done a lot of impressive stuff, and he is galactus most powerful herald
speaking of FEATS, theres nothing to prove she can do whatever she wishes. if that was true, hosts that have had more of the force in them wouldnt get consistently owned by street levelers and EMPS
@Lord_Moldemvort: In Uncanny it was taken from them by Maddie clone as they where genetically grown to be superior hosts but Emma talked to convincing the PF it was better with them and it killed the Maddie clones that took it and went back to her. Phoenix hosts have shown they can do almost anything they want so she can kill him by simple virtue that she is a lot more powerful than him.
The PF 5 have only been taken down by characters with equal or more power and the Surfer does not have more power, the PF has far more power than Galactus most people know this stop pretending otherwise.
@Lord_Moldemvort said:
@LordOfAllHumans: yeah, and frankly considering the amount of low showings galactus has at his weaker states, thats really not that impressive. when has a weak galactus ever shown to be a galaxy buster? not sure where you got that info, but its obviously false
either way, galactus doesnt need to completely kill her off to defeat her. she has proven to be the spark of life, but thats honestly it. in my opinion i still place a well fed galactus above her any day as far as who can defeat who more
when has the phoenix stayed within the host after its been drained? can you name any instances? as far as im concerned, she could only reform due to the force, so if its removed from her, then thats it. besides, its not like the whole force was in her, it was only a fraction of it
and hell even then im not sure why that would make such a big difference. can you explain what shes going to do? her telepathy is useless, and surfer can go intangible or dodge any of her attacks.
when emma can survive a black hole to the face or planet busting attacks, let me know
IIRC he did this during Annihilation.
It would appear he does need to kill her to defeat her, because in two encounters he could not defeat her through fighting with and without prep. He tried to remove her from her host and proved he couldn't her then tried to brawl with her and was beaten nearly to death.
The instance of Galactus trying to "drain" the Phoenix from Rachel comes to mind. He was told it was impossible to remove her from her chosen vessel, attempting caused the stars to go out. It was not removed from her because the Phoenix bonds with not just the body but the mind and soul of it's host, so the Phoenix never left her even when her body was shattered. A fraction of the Phoenix which was smaller than what is being thrown around in recent comics can create suns and fling moons with ease against another that had more Phoenix but less experience with dealing with power (Necrom vs. Rachel).
Why is her telepathy useless when he claims the true source of his power is the astral plane, and the Phoenix is the nexus of all psi energy? You do know that the astral plane is the collective psionic energy of all sentient beings in the universe right?
When you prove she can't considering the power within her was busting planets on it's way to Earth, let me know. The firefly sized portion of the Phoenix that started Endsong and ended Warsong was a threat to the universe, I somehow doubt surviving a black hole is beyond it's power no matter the fraction.
@god_spawn said:
@LordOfAllHumans:
You can't prove he can a drain her at all let alone defeat her by doing this. With the shattering of her physical form we have seen that even without the power of the Phoenix within her actual body, Emma was still able to exist as a Phoenix host and reconstruct herself.Personally, I think she feigned shattering to egg Thor on or set up for her next attack considering she was playing with him the entire fight. Emma's regular diamond form has already withstood attacks from the Dreaming Celestial's head and WWH without shattering. Thor under his own power could barely dent a cylinder of adamantium and with her Phoenix upgrade, X-23 couldn't even scratch her so I don't know why Thor would be able to shatter her unless she wanted it to happen and she did show control over her fragments so it was obvious she could control her structure meaning should pull a stunt like that.
Just my opinion on the matter.
the point is her body was not essential, she could beat him in her body or control pieces of her body, the Phoenix is bonded with more than just her body or she would just be Emma Frost with extra power and not Emma possessed by the Phoenix.
@LordOfAllHumans said:
@god_spawn said:
@LordOfAllHumans:
You can't prove he can a drain her at all let alone defeat her by doing this. With the shattering of her physical form we have seen that even without the power of the Phoenix within her actual body, Emma was still able to exist as a Phoenix host and reconstruct herself.Personally, I think she feigned shattering to egg Thor on or set up for her next attack considering she was playing with him the entire fight. Emma's regular diamond form has already withstood attacks from the Dreaming Celestial's head and WWH without shattering. Thor under his own power could barely dent a cylinder of adamantium and with her Phoenix upgrade, X-23 couldn't even scratch her so I don't know why Thor would be able to shatter her unless she wanted it to happen and she did show control over her fragments so it was obvious she could control her structure meaning should pull a stunt like that.
Just my opinion on the matter.
the point is her body was not essential, she could beat him in her body or control pieces of her body, the Phoenix is bonded with more than just her body or she would just be Emma Frost with extra power and not Emma possessed by the Phoenix.
I know that. I'm just bringing it up that she shouldn't be shattered so easily as Thor did to her and I don't think he really did. I'm bringing it up since the other guy thinks she can be shattered easily and then drained right off the bat which I don't think is the case. I'm debating with you, I'm adding another point.
@god_spawn said:
@LordOfAllHumans said:
@god_spawn said:
@LordOfAllHumans:
You can't prove he can a drain her at all let alone defeat her by doing this. With the shattering of her physical form we have seen that even without the power of the Phoenix within her actual body, Emma was still able to exist as a Phoenix host and reconstruct herself.Personally, I think she feigned shattering to egg Thor on or set up for her next attack considering she was playing with him the entire fight. Emma's regular diamond form has already withstood attacks from the Dreaming Celestial's head and WWH without shattering. Thor under his own power could barely dent a cylinder of adamantium and with her Phoenix upgrade, X-23 couldn't even scratch her so I don't know why Thor would be able to shatter her unless she wanted it to happen and she did show control over her fragments so it was obvious she could control her structure meaning should pull a stunt like that.
Just my opinion on the matter.
the point is her body was not essential, she could beat him in her body or control pieces of her body, the Phoenix is bonded with more than just her body or she would just be Emma Frost with extra power and not Emma possessed by the Phoenix.
I know that. I'm just bringing it up that she shouldn't be shattered so easily as Thor did to her and I don't think he really did. I'm bringing it up since the other guy thinks she can be shattered easily and then drained right off the bat which I don't think is the case. I'm debating with you, I'm adding another point.
I got that after I posted...My Bad :)
@Lord_Moldemvort said:
@Dextersinister: so? things are stated all the time in comics, doesnt mean its actually true
im not sure why you seem to be basing things off percentages, how about actual feats? surfer with some of power cosmic has done a lot of impressive stuff, and he is galactus most powerful herald
speaking of FEATS, theres nothing to prove she can do whatever she wishes. if that was true, hosts that have had more of the force in them wouldnt get consistently owned by street levelers and EMPS
If it is referenced constantly and never disputed in the story it's canon, Galactus said it himself so stop denying it.
Breaking it down into numbers will show you the difference in power in away that you simply cannot dismiss.
The attacks of the levelers have proven useless and are only there because they are famous characters, the phoenix hosts have a much harder time in restraining themselves from killing them outright. With the exception of things relating to Wanda and Hope who are tied to the Phoenix in some plot device related way the hosts have been able to do anything they wish even wiping out all life and remaking the world if they had wished to.
@LordOfAllHumans: like i said, he lost to her because he was weakened and didnt even want to fight. the only reason he couldnt remove her is because she is the spark of life
you seem to be forgetting that emma DOES NOT possess all the force or even close to it in her. the only reason why draining a host would be a problem is if there was a lot of it manifested in them, like jean grey or rachel. even then, it could still probably be absorbed by greater powers like the anti monitor or the goblin force. i doubt all the stars are going to go out because a host with barely a fraction of it is drained. with that being said, i am not convinced surfer cant drain her, and im not sure why the conscience of the phoenix will make a difference
when was emma busting planets and was a threat to the universe again? i dont recall that. and her telepathy is useless because surfer is highly resistant and even with the force in her she couldnt get in thors head.
i have said this many times now, she is going to get drained. then she cant reform after being hit by several planet busting attacks, hell im not sure even with the force she would survive that without being KOed
@Dextersinister: like i said, feats are much more important than stuff in a text bubble
im not sure why that matters though when compared with actual feats
i dont think so. she was shattered into a million pieces by an EMP and specifically stated to be hurt by shiar tech, as well as being KOed by thor twice, getting owned by the xmen INCLUDING rogue, owned by a giant iron man bot, and while bloodlusted owned by proteus. these consistent showings prove more than stuff in a text bubble. face it pal, she doesnt anything to prove all the hype about her
@Lord_Moldemvort said:
@LordOfAllHumans: like i said, he lost to her because he was weakened and didnt even want to fight. the only reason he couldnt remove her is because she is the spark of life
you seem to be forgetting that emma DOES NOT possess all the force or even close to it in her. the only reason why draining a host would be a problem is if there was a lot of it manifested in them, like jean grey or rachel. even then, it could still probably be absorbed by greater powers like the anti monitor or the goblin force. i doubt all the stars are going to go out because a host with barely a fraction of it is drained. with that being said, i am not convinced surfer cant drain her, and im not sure why the conscience of the phoenix will make a difference
when was emma busting planets and was a threat to the universe again? i dont recall that. and her telepathy is useless because surfer is highly resistant and even with the force in her she couldnt get in thors head.
i have said this many times now, she is going to get drained. then she cant reform after being hit by several planet busting attacks, hell im not sure even with the force she would survive that without being KOed
He didn't want to fight? Then why didn't he run? Right she is the spark and it was an impossible task as stated on panel, that is why he didn't remove her.
She doesn't need to possess all of it, nobody possessed all of the Force until HCT when Jean became one with it. The stars were going out because he was trying to remove the host from it's chosen form, if the Phoenix decides it wants to stay in Emma then the same thing would happen is the point. The consciousness makes a difference because the Phoenix is it's power, unlike Galactus and SS the Phoenix does not tap power outside itself to function, even the echo Rachel had in Shi'ar space had a dash of Phoenix consciousness.
You don't need to recall that because you know that the power within her can do all those things, or Marvel Earth would not be concerned at all by a rogue Phoenix manifestation.
Thor resisting her is BS because they needed something since his physical powers proved useless, if Prof X can gain access to the mind of Galactus without help while also dealing with planet wide psi static I don't see why a Phoenix empowered Emma can't enter the mind of his lapdog.
You can say it many more times, but that won't make it true. You have offered nothing to prove he can drain her, I have evidence that his master can't drain a Phoenix. Emma does not posses the full Phoenix and SS does not possess the full Power Cosmic, so a being with a fraction of his power should not do any better against a being with a fraction of her power, as he doesn't even posses 1/5 of the power he wields.
@Lord_Moldemvort said:
@Dextersinister: like i said, feats are much more important than stuff in a text bubble
im not sure why that matters though when compared with actual feats
i dont think so. she was shattered into a million pieces by an EMP and specifically stated to be hurt by shiar tech, as well as being KOed by thor twice, getting owned by the xmen INCLUDING rogue, owned by a giant iron man bot, and while bloodlusted owned by proteus. these consistent showings prove more than stuff in a text bubble. face it pal, she doesnt anything to prove all the hype about her
this is a good argument when you take it all out of context like you just did, in this case the "text bubble" is important because it explains why all these things happened to her.
Death at the end of Planet X. was preordained by the Phoenix and further explained in HCT as a coordinated disinefction
There is nothing or nobody that says it can't be hurt, but the Shi'ar weapon forced a resurrection and caused mental pain, which caused it to not know what it was and why it was suddenly in the corporeal plane so it went to Earth to find Jean.
Are talking about when a possessed Rachel was KOed not by Thor but by her own power being reflected at her?
Rogue? When?
The bot owned nothing, it split it into five and according to Unit that was what would have happened anyway, IIRC the demon planet was visited by Phoenix which split into 5 to undo his spell.
Did you read, Jean was actually beating Proteus and got in her own way, her power was too much for him, her mind which was being manipulating constantly by Mastermind caused her to lapse, not to mention this is directly after it was stated twice that Jean was holding much of the power back even when blood lusted
These showings are not consistent at all, with the exception of Jean watering it's power down.
@Lord_Moldemvort said:
@Dextersinister: like i said, feats are much more important than stuff in a text bubble
im not sure why that matters though when compared with actual feats
i dont think so. she was shattered into a million pieces by an EMP and specifically stated to be hurt by shiar tech, as well as being KOed by thor twice, getting owned by the xmen INCLUDING rogue, owned by a giant iron man bot, and while bloodlusted owned by proteus. these consistent showings prove more than stuff in a text bubble. face it pal, she doesnt anything to prove all the hype about her
How can an event only character with time split between 5 characters rack up the feats of a 50 year old character. I can't believe your discounting dialogue to try and win an argument, she has more power than him so we can she is capable of higher end feats why do we need to see her go blow up other planets in an Earth centric story line just so you will understand how simple that is.
There is no hype about her, she is simply possessed by an entity that is in canon more powerful than Galactus and why list these attacks when none of them had any produced any results whatsoever, I think getting owned means you actually lose and she never lost.
Here's a feat she didn't just beat Thor she toyed with him.
@LordOfAllHumans: im not sure why he didnt flee, but he was not looking for a fight
but that is because a being with much more of the force in her was resisting it. the same thing wont happen with emma because she only possess a small fraction of it, a fraction that surfer can drain. your whole argument is based around comparing apples with oranges. i have FEATS. surfer has drained an exact copy of him with equal power in seconds, absorbed fire lord, absorbed uni-lord, drained hulk, and if your so concerned about the stars he has drained solar energy before and amped his own power with it and has proven to start up a star with his own cosmic rays. this guy can drain near infinite amounts of energy. emma IS going to get the force drained from her
no, i dont know she can do that because SHE HASNT DONE IT. and im also clueless as to why marvel earth would be concerned about rogue
considering the amount of disrespect thor got in that arc, i find it funny you say the bullshit was being thrown in his favor. if he was written to even somewhat of his capability, he could have done so much more. lets see emma take a god blast to the face, or planet busting attacks that have injured sky father level beings. that entire fight was a dog bone for emma
@Lord_Moldemvort said:
@LordOfAllHumans: im not sure why he didnt flee, but he was not looking for a fight
but that is because a being with much more of the force in her was resisting it. the same thing wont happen with emma because she only possess a small fraction of it, a fraction that surfer can drain. your whole argument is based around comparing apples with oranges. i have FEATS. surfer has drained an exact copy of him with equal power in seconds, absorbed fire lord, absorbed uni-lord, drained hulk, and if your so concerned about the stars he has drained solar energy before and amped his own power with it and has proven to start up a star with his own cosmic rays. this guy can drain near infinite amounts of energy. emma IS going to get the force drained from her
no, i dont know she can do that because SHE HASNT DONE IT. and im also clueless as to why marvel earth would be concerned about rogue
considering the amount of disrespect thor got in that arc, i find it funny you say the bullshit was being thrown in his favor. if he was written to even somewhat of his capability, he could have done so much more. lets see emma take a god blast to the face, or planet busting attacks that have injured sky father level beings. that entire fight was a dog bone for emma
Well he got a fight and the point is he was beaten nearly to death.
Comparing apples to oranges? Isn't that what you are doing when you compare a copy of the SS being drained to him being able to drain the Phoenix? A power that is far greater than the source of his power, as stated by his benefactor. You have him draining energy that has no will of it's own. The Phoenix force is still able to take actions on it's own, unlike a star or the gamma radiation on the Hulk it can fight being drained and as shown if the Phoenix really doesn't want to leave the universe will suffer. It goes where it wants, even an echo of the Phoenix can choose to leave a vessel and take another, there is nothing to suggest you can successfully drain the Phoenix, as evidenced by Galactus trying to remove it from Rachel, as evidenced by an alien ship trying to use it as a power source until it got pissed and lashed out.
As I said she is a Phoenix, there are feats of beings with less Phoenix than her busting a galaxy it's not hard to imagine she could do such things, you don't see it happening because the story they are involved in does not require it. It's insane that people know what the Phoenix is and still doubt what one host can do because they have not directly displayed this power. I would like you to read the forum rules and know that feats are only one part of the debate and are used to support claims not the end all be all of a debate which also involves logical deduction. Necrom had a sliver, a piece so small the Phoenix didn't even notice it was taken and that power destroyed moons, planets and created a sun. It's not difficult to conclude that 1/5 of the Phoenix can do a lot more damage than that if the plot called for it.
Getting beat by the Phoenix IMO does not constitute him being disrespected, it should have been expected that a single Earth god would be no match for something like the Phoenix, most things in the Marvel universe are not. Phoenix >>>>>>> skyfathers, so them being hurt by an attack of Thors is not really saying much. It was shown that whatever damage was dealt to her body was temporary and that she can shatter and easily reform, so I doubt a god blast to the face would do any more damage to her than this black hole to the face you spoke of earlier.
If all you've got is draining and black holes, things that are not beyond the power of the Phoenix, then SS is not winning this.
@Lord_Moldemvort: Your examples of him either absorbing the non-sentient energy of silver age one shot nobodies or characters characters weaker than him. She is more powerful than him and the last bunch of characters that took the PF without it's permission got fried, your putting a lot of emphasis on utilizing an ability that will get him killed.
@LordOfAllHumans: no, im listing feats that prove he can drain her without any problems. i dont understand why you constantly keep referring to an opponent he isnt even fighting, which is the phoenix. he is fighting EMMA with a fraction of the force. you could have a point if this was jean or rachel, 2 hosts that were given much more power. but no, its just emma with barely a fraction of it, and i dont see that fraction being able to resist being absorbed by a guy that can drain near infinite amounts of energy. surfer can destroy moons and planets easily, hes 1 shotted a planet to prove a point once. creating a star? cool, drax ripped through one of those. none of that puts them above surfer, and what i find quite funny is that actual force or beings with a greater amount have barely been able to do anything more than that. weird, right?
i didnt say losing to the phoenix was a bad showing, i said being humiliated by characters with a fraction of it is a bad showing, especially when you have taken on worse. sure, maybe you could say the actual force is above sky fathers, despite the fact that i have never seen her be displayed as multiple galaxy buster, but the same cant be said at all for hosts with a fraction of it
surfer can do WAY more than that. forget about the black holes, but i have already proved draining emma wont be a very troublesome act for him to perform. he can also go intangible, use her own force to amp himself, increase his strength and durability, dish out planet busting attacks, has easily tanked attacks that could destroy a planet, completely healed from being cut into pieces, is highly resistant to TP, out speeds her by light speeds, has nanosecond reactions
what is emma going to do?
@Dextersinister: the point is, this guy has proven he can drain near infinite amount of energy. emma only has a small fraction of the force. absorbing her wont be a problem at all
why dont you go ahead and explain to me how emma wins? im curious to see what you have to say
@Lord_Moldemvort said:
@LordOfAllHumans: no, im listing feats that prove he can drain her without any problems. i dont understand why you constantly keep referring to an opponent he isnt even fighting, which is the phoenix. he is fighting EMMA with a fraction of the force. you could have a point if this was jean or rachel, 2 hosts that were given much more power. but no, its just emma with barely a fraction of it, and i dont see that fraction being able to resist being absorbed by a guy that can drain near infinite amounts of energy. surfer can destroy moons and planets easily, hes 1 shotted a planet to prove a point once. creating a star? cool, drax ripped through one of those. none of that puts them above surfer, and what i find quite funny is that actual force or beings with a greater amount have barely been able to do anything more than that. weird, right?
i didnt say losing to the phoenix was a bad showing, i said being humiliated by characters with a fraction of it is a bad showing, especially when you have taken on worse. sure, maybe you could say the actual force is above sky fathers, despite the fact that i have never seen her be displayed as multiple galaxy buster, but the same cant be said at all for hosts with a fraction of it
surfer can do WAY more than that. forget about the black holes, but i have already proved draining emma wont be a very troublesome act for him to perform. he can also go intangible, use her own force to amp himself, increase his strength and durability, dish out planet busting attacks, has easily tanked attacks that could destroy a planet, completely healed from being cut into pieces, is highly resistant to TP, out speeds her by light speeds, has nanosecond reactions
what is emma going to do?
When you are possessed by, hosting or being an avatar for the Phoenix you are the Phoenix, this is no longer Emma Frost the mutant it is Emma Frost the Phoenix. You have not proved anything, you have given examples of him absorbing energy that is not on par with a Phoenix host regardless of the fraction the energy he has absorbed also does not have a will of it's own.
The amount of Power cosmic he wields is not even 1/5 of the power of Galactus. Galactus is not more powerful than Rachel with one half of Dark Phoenix. Dark Phoenix split itself and one piece went into Rachel and the other into Maddie. So how can something with less than one fifth of the power that can't beat one half of the Phoenix suddenly beat one fifth of the Phoenix?
@LordOfAllHumans: wait so it doesnt matter how much of the force she has in her, she just instantly becomes the phoenix? that doesnt quite make sense. or perhaps you were saying shes just called the phoenix, not her power suddenly becomes equivalent to the actual force
whether or not some of those opponents are overall above emma, thats not exactly the point i was trying to make. those guys have a lot of energy within them, and surfer was able to drain it easily. the whole point was surfer is not going to somehow get overloaded by absorbing this small fraction of force within her. true it has a will, and now i admit it could pose a slight problem, but im willing to believe surfer can handle it based on his draining/absorbing feats
once again im going to have to disagree. i do NOT believe the phoenix is overall above a full fed galactus, and either way your basing stuff off the wrong things. frankly, does it really matter how much power one is given in general? its more important with what is DONE with that power, just because you have a lot of something doesnt mean you can perform impressive feats. keep in mind im speaking in general
with that being said, if you read my post i listed many things in favor of surfer, while you still have listed nothing in favor of emma
@Lord_Moldemvort: Here's one for you show me proof of a fully fed Galactus. By that I mean this untapped potential people keep going on about.
@Dextersinister: pal, what does galactus have anything to do with this fight? its weird that this topic keeps getting strayed from for whatever reason. but either way, im not sure if galactus has ever really been completely full powered. basically when hes in that state hes about equal to eternity, and for that to happen he needs to absorb all life in the universe
now, lets actually stay on topic here. this fight is between surfer and emma. i have stated things in favor of surfer, now its your turn
@Lord_Moldemvort: Just humour, do you have any idea where this full power myth comes from.
@Dextersinister: no. its not important either way
@Lord_Moldemvort said:
@Dextersinister: no. its not important either way
You assumed that Galactus has some untapped potential that makes him equal to Eternity despite no proof of this, the current version of Eternity was made at the same time as Galactus so people have based this myth entirely on that. Now you are assuming that the Surfer can absorb the PF from a character more powerful than him with no evidence to prove it just his ability to absorb generic energy despite the fact that it is not some named energy it is the being itself he would be trying to absorb.
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