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#51 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nessy said:

@Erik: yes in that case I am calling you an idiot.

And, I'll ask you nicely not to throw around insults next time. Thank you.

#52 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

@KaioKen said:

Those of you who think Dexter will get away with this are either idiots or....

No one in this thread is an idiot, and I would really appreciate it if you refrain from name-calling in the future.

As far as your take on freedom of speech, you can say whatever you want here, but if it violates Terms and Conditions of the site, I will gladly take action against you. Even your freedom of speech can get you in trouble.

#53 Posted by nickthedevil (13199 posts) - - Show Bio

@Static Shock said:

@Nessy said:

@Erik: yes in that case I am calling you an idiot.

And, I'll ask you nicely not to throw around insults next time. Thank you.

@Static Shock said:

@KaioKen said:

Those of you who think Dexter will get away with this are either idiots or....

No one in this thread is an idiot, and I would really appreciate it if you refrain from name-calling in the future.

As far as your take on freedom of speech, you can say whatever you want here, but if it violates Terms and Conditions of the site, I will gladly take action against you. Even your freedom of speech can get you in trouble.

#54 Edited by HowTerribleIsThat (349 posts) - - Show Bio
@Erik said:

@HowTerribleIsThat said:

Dexter meanwhile is not perfect. Doakes always knew there was something off with him and eventually caught him in the act forcing Dexter to lock him up while he tried to figure what to do with him. Eventually he lucked out when that woman blew him up. Last season was full of situations where he almost got caught, there was that time a captive of his got loose and he just managed to catch him in time and make it look like "autoerotic mummification." There was that time there was a single sheet between him and Deb but Deb supported whoever was helping Lumen so she didn't check. There was that time in the first season where that kid couldn't describe him very well. I could go on but basically, Dexter against Jane in a battle of the minds is like Dexter vs Batman in a fight. Dexter might be good, far better than is realistic, but nowhere near good enough to win.

Also, the best FBI agent is trash compared to Patrick Jane.

Doakes only knew because it was revealed that he is just like Dexter. The only difference is that when he did all his killings, he did it behind the badge or backed by the government. The only ones that ever figured Dexter out were other killers. Had Doakes fit the code, Dexter would not have even bothered keeping him alive.

The captive got loose because Dexter was wasting time fixing someone else's mistakes.

Deb almost got Dexter because Dexter was captive by someone that already knew who he really was and had captured him.

What kid?

All your examples are taken out of context. That is just terrible debating.

Who cares if it's the code that stopped Dexter from killing Doakes? It's a part of his character and if it makes him make mistakes then you can't just ignore it. And the bottom line is that Dexter can be read by people who know what to look for, as has happened numerous times. Jane is a killer who has always displayed a near perfect ability to read humans even before he became a killer, if Doakes got an inkling from Dexter then Jane will see right through him.

Who cares if Dexter's captive getting loose was due to him helping someone else? It's still a mistake he should never have made and it's a mistake he could quite easily make again.

And Dexter having already fucking up hugely once by getting caught is not an argument for his side. It was a situation that was entirely in Deb's hands and she just happened not to look behind the sheets...

The bottom line is that Dexter has lost control of situations and only averted being caught by luck numerous times, you can't dodge that fact.

And I guess you didn't watch season one.

Also you're completely ignoring the Jane feats that have been posted so just from this season.

1. Reads a crime scene while not there.

2. Figures out a kidnapper from an overly long hug in a situation where hugging is natural.

3. Figures out a murderer who had been close to the police for years without being caught just by talking to him a few times and then seeing his medicine cabinet.

4. Repeated instances of turning up on a crime scene and instantly being able to tell you what the victim was and how they were murdered, often in situations where it looks like something completely different to everyone else there. 

5. Constantly sets up traps that trick the murderer into revealing themselves, nearly once per episode since the show began. Ignoring Red John I don't think they've ever failed either...

@Erik said:

Maybe I have watched the shows and just think you are wrong. I guess that you are calling me an idiot then.

Since you've already said that you've not seen the show, this is pretty pathetic...
#55 Posted by Nessy (569 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyone that has the logic and reasoning skills above that of a 2 year old's can see that Patrick is intellectually greater than Dexter in literally everyway.

Only bias could lead someone to a different conclusion

#56 Posted by KaioKen (220 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik:

  • Well i am on course to get a 1st class degree so i wouldn't be worried for me, thanks for the concern.
  • You Still do not know what trolling is. Another case where you assume and have no facts.
  • So your admitting you came to your conclusion on one post, where as before you said you took everyone's view into account?
  • He is the best Blood Splatter Expert in the state, no where does it mention " He is only the best forensics investigator in Miami." so he is good in 1 field.
  • It is true, Ever spoken to a Lawyer?
  • You haven't disproved luck. So you are saying that Brian knew Dexter would look at one particular slide? Manipulating him to act in a certain way?
  • Well In this post Patrick Jane in in Miami, and they work with the Police and forensics... Oh it sounds like i am just repeating myself... Must be a piece of information we ignore.
  • You are only looking for information you want to look for, as by your first post having no information about Patrick Jane and assuming (as you said based one one post) that Dexter would get away with this.
#57 Posted by Killemall (18635 posts) - - Show Bio

I really think ppl are selling Patrick short here, Patrick has solved cases within seconds and was forced to tone down, and he has solved case that was humanly impossible. He have read ppl mind although he never explained how he did it.

I think Patrick could take Dexter.

#58 Posted by Jezer (3129 posts) - - Show Bio

"He convinced a jury top let him off after admitting to killing someone and admitting to it. I don't think that this is even possible"

Possible when arguing you killed someone in self defense or use the insanity(irresistible impulse or didn't no the difference between right or wrong) defense. Yes, that's possible in real life and people do it. See: Mary Adams Butler vs. State of Georgia and Durham vs. United States.

"To be insulted by something you must first believe it to be true, the first thing you learn in Psychology." AND "In a court of law if someone sates he was not offended by a remark that the defendant is being tried for, then the defendant is innocent. Just like if someone says they are guilty then they are guilty."

I'm a psych major, and pre-law, and none of what you just said sounds legitimate. Seriously, cite whoever proposed this theory about insults - and the reasoning behind it. Otherwise, I call bull.

Also, I don't even know what you're trying to say about law. Innocence or guiltiness decided by what someone says or whether they're offended? Explain what you're trying to say so I can properly refute your pseudo-lawyer 'knowledge'.

#59 Posted by Fetts (4488 posts) - - Show Bio

I do like Patrick Jane more, but he had enough trouble finding Red John. I don't think he'd be able to find Dexter. 

#60 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nessy said:

Anyone that has the logic and reasoning skills above that of a 2 year old's can see that Patrick is intellectually greater than Dexter in literally everyway.

Not everyone watches Dexter or the Mentalist, so please, try not to insult anyone's intelligence.

#61 Edited by HowTerribleIsThat (349 posts) - - Show Bio
@Jezer said:

"He convinced a jury top let him off after admitting to killing someone and admitting to it. I don't think that this is even possible"

Possible when arguing you killed someone in self defense or use the insanity(irresistible impulse or didn't no the difference between right or wrong) defense. Yes, that's possible in real life and people do it. See: Mary Adams Butler vs. State of Georgia and Durham vs. United States.

That isn't what happened though, he convinced the jury that the victim was Red John (which he believed him to be when killing him) and as a result was declared innocent. It wasn't self defense and it wasn't insanity. So ye, how often have people used the "I wanted revenge." defense and won as a result?

#62 Posted by Killemall (18635 posts) - - Show Bio

@Static Shock said:

@Nessy said:

Anyone that has the logic and reasoning skills above that of a 2 year old's can see that Patrick is intellectually greater than Dexter in literally everyway.

Not everyone watches Dexter or the Mentalist, so please, try not to insult anyone's intelligence.

Not to mention that is just ridiculous claim. Both of them are quite remarkable. I think Patrick isn’t getting as much credit he deserves but I watch both the shows and I like mentalist more and even I would admit saying dexter doesn’t have a chance is being VERY VERY bias.

#63 Posted by Jezer (3129 posts) - - Show Bio

@HowTerribleIsThat said:

@Jezer said:

"He convinced a jury top let him off after admitting to killing someone and admitting to it. I don't think that this is even possible"

Possible when arguing you killed someone in self defense or use the insanity(irresistible impulse or didn't no the difference between right or wrong) defense. Yes, that's possible in real life and people do it. See: Mary Adams Butler vs. State of Georgia and Durham vs. United States.

That isn't what happened though, he convinced the jury that the victim was Red John (which he believed him to be when killing him) and as a result was declared innocent. It wasn't self defense and it wasn't insanity. So ye, how often have people used the "I wanted revenge." defense and won as a result?

Well, glancing over the spoilers for the episode, he argued that the guy was Red John, the guy who killed his family and many other people?

In real life, there have been cases where people have used the Irresistible Impulse form of the insanity defense to argue that they shouldn't be held liable for crimes they committed because they just couldn't control themselves because of the person in the situation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorena_Bobbitt#Lorena

Cut off part of her husband's penis, and got off not guilty. Why? Because her husband had a long history of sexually abusing her. Had just raped her. And when she spotted that knife, she just couldn't control herself and her emotions.

Anyways, this mirrors basically what Patrick Jane argued.(After convincing them he was Red John) How could he resist shooting the guy who killed his wife and daughter? They can all empathize with him, so they decide that he shouldn't be held criminally liable for doing something that given the circumstances, none of them could probably resist doing.

In other words, I'm not terribly impressed with what he did. It's plausible, because similar arguments are possible, and have worked, in real life...

#64 Posted by rottenface (4 posts) - - Show Bio

The Fact is Dexter is a lot better than The mentalist.

BUT if Jane could face Dexter, at the first time he will knows about Dexter's secret and i assure you that Dexter doesn't have any idea who this blonde guy is.(Check mate) if Dexter could take a leap forward to hiding or covering some evidences. jane will and always knows. Yes i like comparing this guy as a god...He knows everything but the murder of his own daughter silly isn't it ?

Jane Could win...but why this special agent can't win against dexter, you know the answer is debra...

#65 Posted by Nefarious (21243 posts) - - Show Bio

Dexter.

#66 Posted by GodDamnIronMan (1553 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nessy said:

I know that Dexter is obviously the better show, especially as of recently, but do you really think that Dexter, an almost realistic character, could be smarter than Jane, who is basically like a god in his own world, who in almost every episode is able to determine the murderer instantly the first time they meet.

Dexter has made many many big blunders in the series, while Patrick has pretty much always played everyone, and tricked them so everything works out in the end in every episode.

Dexter can barely control himself from killing as well, and on several occasions has done something stupid or has almost been caught and only got through it out of luck.

Totally Agree with you...

But I have a different theory, I think jane will made a deal with Dexter ( since both are very smart) to kill Red John

the best way to even both character

#67 Posted by Alexander505 (2163 posts) - - Show Bio

Patrick

#68 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (18793 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump. Now that I have seen more of both the character, I can freely say:

@alexander505 said:

Patrick

has this in the bag.

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#69 Posted by Shawnbaby (10867 posts) - - Show Bio

Dexter. Jane is good and all but his tricks won't work on Dexter. And he has been fooled by "Friends of Red John" before. Anyone who's seen the show should remember Grace's Fiance....Jane didn't see that coming. He also didn't see that the guy he murdered wasn't actually Red John.

#70 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (18793 posts) - - Show Bio

Dexter. Jane is good and all but his tricks won't work on Dexter. And he has been fooled by "Friends of Red John" before. Anyone who's seen the show should remember Grace's Fiance....Jane didn't see that coming. He also didn't see that the guy he murdered wasn't actually Red John.

I have to disagree here. Mostly, the only people that can fool jane are ones related to red john. (And that irene adler rip off). And red john himself. Unlike dexter, he playes almost every last person on the show, sees through them and manipulates. Dexter, on the other hand is as human as a fictional serial killer can get, makes many mistakes, and if doakes could notice him, and catch him in the act, Patric, who's lightyears ahead should read him like a book. Saying that jane makes mistakes because of red john is very, very unfair to him, red john seems to be as intelligent as patric and as good a planner as dexter, if not more than both..

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#71 Posted by Shawnbaby (10867 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby said:

Dexter. Jane is good and all but his tricks won't work on Dexter. And he has been fooled by "Friends of Red John" before. Anyone who's seen the show should remember Grace's Fiance....Jane didn't see that coming. He also didn't see that the guy he murdered wasn't actually Red John.

I have to disagree here. Mostly, the only people that can fool jane are ones related to red john. (And that irene adler rip off). And red john himself. Unlike dexter, he playes almost every last person on the show, sees through them and manipulates. Dexter, on the other hand is as human as a fictional serial killer can get, makes many mistakes, and if doakes could notice him, and catch him in the act, Patric, who's lightyears ahead should read him like a book. Saying that jane makes mistakes because of red john is very, very unfair to him, red john seems to be as intelligent as patric and as good a planner as dexter, if not more than both..

I'm not trying to lowball Patrick...He is very intelligent...but he has been fooled by other intelligent people. Dexter is also very intelligent. He's worked for years amongst Homicide detective and the only one that even suspected anything was weird about him was Doakes....who was only able to determine that because he had many of the same qualities Dexter does. Dexter spent time working with the FBI's top agent for tracking down Serial Killers and the dude never even suspected that Dexter was the guy he was hunting. Dexter is at least as intelligent as Red John. He managed to go unnoticed as a serial killer for years...and when he was discovered...he managed to pin it on the one guy that knew he was the killer. After that he went right back to killing people...only this time being even more careful about it.

#72 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (18793 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: I can see you're not, as you seem to like him, too. Sure, he has been fooled by intelligent people, sure he does, but almost all the times, red john's somehow involved there. More often than not.

Patric, in a few looks, saw through panzer, someone who had been leading the hunt party for himself. For years. And was able to kill with the whole CBI looking for him. He has seen through almost every murder, and lier, except for very exceptional cases, in which, more often than not, red john was involved. Not just panzer, how many times has patric seen through the guilty and non guilty? Almost every time.

And saying that dexter is as intelligent as red john is hyping him off the scales. Seriously. Off the scales. Have you seen the stuff he pulls?The reason he went un noticed, is that he trained specifically for killing without suspicion.Yet, he gets suspected by doakes, debs, and ultimately gets discovered by debs right in the middle of killing. Red john, on the other hand, is a showman. He makes a spectacle of his crime, paints his logo on sky, has many followers who know him, brain washes and playes them so perfectly that no even one tells about him, hacks into the secure network of CBI, gets many good agents shot in the office, burns a suspect right in central custody, frames a unit boss of being his accomplice on cbi,deceiving la rosche, has an unknown accomplice in Fbi itself, murders his imitators and a serial killer mocking him right in middle of city..the list goes on. CBI and fbi has boxes of evidence on him, yet they don't have the slightest of clues on his identity.. No. Dexter is not even close to red john.

Edit: omg I can't believe I'm backing a serial killer :o

Re edit: This was the exactly same reaction when patric gets the call about sjk's death, and the incredible music starts, and I said, 'oh, yes, go red john!'

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#73 Posted by Shawnbaby (10867 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: I can see you're not, as you seem to like him, too. Sure, he has been fooled by intelligent people, sure he does, but almost all the times, red john's somehow involved there. More often than not.

Patric, in a few looks, saw through panzer, someone who had been leading the hunt party for himself. For years. And was able to kill with the whole CBI looking for him. He has seen through almost every murder, and lier, except for very exceptional cases, in which, more often than not, red john was involved. Not just panzer, how many times has patric seen through the guilty and non guilty? Almost every time.

And saying that dexter is as intelligent as red john is hyping him off the scales. Seriously. Off the scales. Have you seen the stuff he pulls?The reason he went un noticed, is that he trained specifically for killing without suspicion.Yet, he gets suspected by doakes, debs, and ultimately gets discovered by debs right in the middle of killing. Red john, on the other hand, is a showman. He makes a spectacle of his crime, paints his logo on sky, has many followers who know him, brain washes and playes them so perfectly that no even one tells about him, hacks into the secure network of CBI, gets many good agents shot in the office, burns a suspect right in central custody, frames a unit boss of being his accomplice on cbi,deceiving la rosche, has an unknown accomplice in Fbi itself, murders his imitators and a serial killer mocking him right in middle of city..the list goes on. CBI and fbi has boxes of evidence on him, yet they don't have the slightest of clues on his identity.. No. Dexter is not even close to red john.

Debra never suspected him of being a killer until she was right there watching him kill a guy...and even after that he almost bullshitted his way out of that too. Doakes only suspected him because in the Dexter-verse killers have this way of recognizing each other for what they really are...Doakes didn't even really know what set him off about Dexter until he basically stumbled upon the truth. Lundy, however, a trained FBI agent who specialized in tracking down Serial Killers for decades...never had the slightest clue as to what Dexter was. And, during that entire investigation...Dexter was running interference to keep it that way. Dexter has also tracked down multiple serial killers well before the police did. I think you are really downplaying what Dexter is capable of.

I have seen the stuff Red John pulls off...and he is very intelligent...but Red John also has a lot of help from his "friends". Dexter often has to work without help...and sometimes even actively against his own Precinct.

#74 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (18793 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: I'm not trying to downplay dexter, any more than you're downplaying patric, which you say is none.. The whole point about dexter was not letting anyone suspect about his presence. Debs not only once, but twice noted about the presence (once when she said that the cut could be a signature, and she came up with a theory about another killer. Doakes had gone through his apartment and found the blood slides. Fooling miami and a killer-special agent is nothing compared to killing whole cbi and fbi.. Not to mention fooling a man who sees through about everyone for so many years. The more clarifying difference is, dexter wants to be a secret. So he keeps his victims and evidence hidden away. Red john uses the bodies as a part of the show, leaves boxes full of papers of case files about evidence and theories about him, and still, no clue in the world seems to reach to him. Patric seems to be the only man who even gets close to him, and we see how much problematic it is for him, not to mention he's still in the dark about his identity.

I'm not sure how red john has 'help' from his friends, it's like saying patric gets 'help'. No. They both use them (patric does so nicely, though) and he brainwashes them perfectly. (By sisters death, or giving them the person they love..etc.)

Dexter makes mistakes. Red john doesn't.

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#75 Edited by Shawnbaby (10867 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1 said:

@shawnbaby: I'm not trying to downplay dexter, any more than you're downplaying patric, which you say is none.. The whole point about dexter was not letting anyone suspect about his presence. Debs not only once, but twice noted about the presence (once when she said that the cut could be a signature, and she came up with a theory about another killer. Doakes had gone through his apartment and found the blood slides. Fooling miami and a killer-special agent is nothing compared to killing whole cbi and fbi.. Not to mention fooling a man who sees through about everyone for so many years. The more clarifying difference is, dexter wants to be a secret. So he keeps his victims and evidence hidden away. Red john uses the bodies as a part of the show, leaves boxes full of papers of case files about evidence and theories about him, and still, no clue in the world seems to reach to him. Patric seems to be the only man who even gets close to him, and we see how much problematic it is for him, not to mention he's still in the dark about his identity.

I'm not sure how red john has 'help' from his friends, it's like saying patric gets 'help'. No. They both use them (patric does so nicely, though) and he brainwashes them perfectly. (By sisters death, or giving them the person they love..etc.)

Dexter makes mistakes. Red john doesn't.

All I'm saying is a lot of what Red John has done would not have been possible without his Friends. He may use them and control them...but they still go places and do things that he can't.

Also...it isn't Red John Versus Dexter anyway. It's Patrick versus Dexter...and Patrick makes mistakes too.

#76 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (18793 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: Obviously, they do. His using them makes him far more capable of accomplishing things lone killers like dexter never can. He's dexter without the rules and moriarty rolled into one. (A bit better than dexter but less than moriarty imo) But more important thing is, not even one of his people back fire.

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#77 Edited by Shawnbaby (10867 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: Obviously, they do. His using them makes him far more capable of accomplishing things lone killers like dexter never can. He's dexter without the rules and moriarty rolled into one. (A bit better than dexter but less than moriarty imo) But more important thing is, not even one of his people back fire.

Still has nothing to do with it. It's not about Dexter vs Red John and his entire "organization". Yes, Red John and his people can do a lot of stuff that Dexter can't do on his own... but Dexter doesn't work with killers...he kills them. But this isn't Red John vs Dexter. It's Patrick Jane vs Dexter.

Patrick has never caught Red John. He's never even come close. The one time he did think he caught Red John turned out to be an elaborate ruse that Jane bought hook, line, and sinker. He's never even caught anyone as accomplished as Dexter. Most of the people he catches are one-time murderers that committed Crimes of Passion that they then try to cover up. Not someone that has spent his entire life avoiding suspicion.

#78 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (18793 posts) - - Show Bio

Still has nothing to do with it. It's not about Dexter vs Red John and his entire "organization". Yes, Red John and his people can do a lot of stuff that Dexter can't do on his own... but Dexter doesn't work with killers...he kills them. But this isn't Red John vs Dexter. It's Patrick Jane vs Dexter.

Patrick has never caught Red John. He's never even come close. The one time he did think he caught Red John turned out to be an elaborate ruse that Jane bought hook, line, and sinker. He's never even caught anyone as accomplished as Dexter. Most of the people he catches are one-time murderers that committed Crimes of Passion that they then try to cover up. Not someone that has spent his entire life avoiding suspicion.

Exactly. Red john has a whole organisation and is infinitely more powerful and devious than dexter. So the point about jane being unable to detect red john making him unable to catch dexter was not a very good point. Jane is fooled very, very few times, and more often than not red john is involved. That doesn't mean any accomplished killer can fool him.

He saw through james in one, or two talks at most. The guy who killed right in the open, lead the world's attention to himself, had the cbi, and fbi hunting him down, and still managed to kill. Avoiding suspicion by hiding, against hiding even after making every one hunt you. Not to mention, dexter was found, by doakes, gabrielle, and was seen by the little kid, who luckily forgot him. As I said, he's as real a fictional killer can be, makes mistakes, and with skill AND luck avoids capture. He won't be escaping someone who reads situations around him so easily as if they were written in block letters around him. Dexter didn't even have a master player playing against him yet, much less some at patric's level. I don't see him lasting more than a few days if patric comes to miami. Whether or not patric will let him continue is much more interesting question, if you think about it.

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#79 Posted by Nessy3 (94 posts) - - Show Bio

lol thread gets bumped after Nessy gets banned.

Patrick obviously has this, he is virtually perfect. what a shit show

#80 Posted by theONEtaichou (1553 posts) - - Show Bio

Patrick Jane

#81 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (18793 posts) - - Show Bio

Bumping this. I'm even more sure of Jane's easy victory here, with his cake trick on rigsby. The guy is a massive reality warper 0.0

Edit: Maybe I shouldn't have bumped it..

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#82 Posted by Om4zd (923 posts) - - Show Bio

Jane could catch him.

#83 Posted by rcda66 (1 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Jane will find out easilly who Dexter is, but he gonna work with him to catch RED JHON, thats how both win, Dexter Kill a serial killer and Jane finally catch RJ!

#84 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (18793 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice bump. Still with patric, he could find out about dexter the moment they meet. But I can see them trying to find out about red john together.

(Still, jane will be scared of dexter..)

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#85 Edited by AllaithAlsaleh (492 posts) - - Show Bio

Patrick Jane obviously I think Jane can GODStomp Sherlock Holmes,Batman,Monk and Clombo but Hercule Poroit is better than Jane,By the Way nice Thread man :D

#86 Posted by AllaithAlsaleh (492 posts) - - Show Bio

Jane overkill.