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#1 Posted by WhiteLion (34 posts) - - Show Bio

Uh. I didn't see it here... so here it goes. I was in the mode for Star Wars debate.Um so yeah here we go

The Sith vs The Order (Movie Version against Movie version, and Comicbook against Comicbook)

Mindset: IC

Battle Area:Battle of Genosis

Starting Distant: 15 meters

Battle to the Death

#2 Posted by battlexlordx (314 posts) - - Show Bio

Sith. The jedi are out matched by palpatine he could take Obi and Mace at the same time and anakin and dooku could really take yoda.

#3 Edited by BillyTheFox (12 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow...

If we're going in terms of lightsaber skills, I'd say that it would be a very, very long fight with people very equally matched, and that it would likely be a stalemate. In terms of Force powers, though.... Well, all six of them are adept with the Force in various ways, but only Yoda and Palps have actual mastery of the Force in ways that make the others look like chumps by comparison. So by the end they'd be the only ones left standing, and if the battle were more drawn out, I find it likely that Yoda could pull out the win for his team, even though Palps is said to be stronger in the Force (in the Episode III novel, at least). Yoda has nearly 900 years of experience on his side, whereas Palps would be in his sixties by Episode III I believe. So if Yoda can come up with a way to outsmart Palps, he'd be the ultimate winner in this 3 on 3 bout.

#4 Posted by AweSam (7375 posts) - - Show Bio

That depends, who has the high ground?

#5 Posted by BillyTheFox (12 posts) - - Show Bio

@AweSam said:

That depends, who has the high ground?

I see what you did there...

#6 Edited by decepticondave_ (185 posts) - - Show Bio

well here is my breakdown of facts, since we are using movie versions that means they are at the peak of their skill, ill start with saying that the order sweeps this dual in a crubstomp and here are my factual reasons, 1 mace is the greatest lightsaber dualist of that era, even better than yoda, he easily handled palp, now say what you will about "he planned on losing" ive read the books, thats not true, sorry bros, he lost. Vaapad is a far greater style than anyone else can muster, so mace could easily solo ani, and count, and hes already beat palp in the movies, now on to yoda, when yoda isnt holding his anger back, or has morals he would turn ani and count into ground mush with his force powers, plus hes only minorly below mace on lightsaber skills, the only reason he stopped fighting palp was for 2 reasons that i can observe, 1 he was getting angry and he will never chose that path, and 2 he wasnt able to defeat him without using his rage, so he banished himself to the swamps. and Obi defeated ani when he was at his peak of rage, granted ani had to make a hard mistake for that to happen so lets call them perfectly even, so by facts alone light saber dualing mace>yoda>palp>obi=-/=ani>count and force it would lay yoda>palp>mace>count>obi=/=ani, basically mace and yoda could duo this team, throwing obi in the fray only gives him someone to hold off ani while they rofl stomp the other 2, palp is the ONLY one here capable of beating anyone and thats on the sheer chance yoda is holding back. I can list feats if needed, not sure how many posts i have left today tho.

#7 Posted by BillyTheFox (12 posts) - - Show Bio

@decepticondave_: In the Episode III novelization, though, Mace didn't handle Palp "easily" at all. He even admitted to himself that Vaapad alone couldn't beat Palpatine. And if Yoda ever gave into his anger and used the Dark Side to unleash his potential... Gawd, can you IMAGINE the kind of havoc he could wreak if he wanted?! It's absurd!

Also in the Episode III novel, Yoda stopped fighting Palpatine because, in his words, "he had lost before he had begun" (that may be a paraphrase). Palpatine was a member of the Rule of Two, which was an evolved doctrine of the Sith. The less Sith there were, the more powerful they could be, so it was limited to two. The Jedi, however, had spent the last thousand years since the end of the New Sith Wars training to fight the Old Sith Order, not Bane's Rule of Two, so Yoda couldn't actually adapt.

Of course, this is all hypothetical. I for one was more interested in the lightsaber portion of their duel when I watched.

#8 Posted by decepticondave_ (185 posts) - - Show Bio

@BillyTheFox: Windu was one of the greatest swordsmen of his time. He defeated Sora Bulq during their duel on Ruul and overwhelmed Asajj Ventress shortly afterwards. Windu also overwhelmed Count Dooku during the battle of Boz Pity and even managed to defeat Darth Sidious himself; a feat that even Grand Master Yoda had been unable to accomplish. Cited from wookiepedia, the feats mace windu has done clearly out matches any of the sith here, since hes beaten 2 of them already?

#9 Posted by BillyTheFox (12 posts) - - Show Bio

@decepticondave_ said:

@BillyTheFox: Windu was one of the greatest swordsmen of his time. He defeated Sora Bulq during their duel on Ruul and overwhelmed Asajj Ventress shortly afterwards. Windu also overwhelmed Count Dooku during the battle of Boz Pity and even managed to defeat Darth Sidious himself; a feat that even Grand Master Yoda had been unable to accomplish. Cited from wookiepedia, the feats mace windu has done clearly out matches any of the sith here, since hes beaten 2 of them already?

Hey, I'm not saying that Mace couldn't do it-- personally, I think he DID out-duel Palpatine, George Lucas' words be damned. But you have to remember, Palpatine, in terms of Force Potential, is canonically the most powerful Sith Lord in history (though if Vader had not lost his limbs, HE would have taken that honor; Palps even said so). Sora Bulq and even Dooku were nowhere near his level of Force power, and neither was Mace. When it comes to those that can duel Palpatine on even footing, so far only four people have been able to do so: Mace Windu, Yoda, Luke Skywalker, and Galen Marek.

Granted, the fight between Marek and Palps was... Ugh. Just, ugh.

#10 Edited by decepticondave_ (185 posts) - - Show Bio

@BillyTheFox: first off revan is the most powerful sith/jedi in history, period :) palps is strong but yoda is stronger, plus there have been plenty of sith who are far more powerful than palps, i could name 10 that easily defeat him, like the current emperor in SWTOR, google his feat on how he became the current xD its pretty amazing if i do say so myself, but anyways back to the subject at hand, if you wanna talk force feats, yoda, seeing what ive saw in the movies, threw those senate seats UP and sidious threw them DOWN and it took yoda no strain to put a back spin on 1? plus the most notable feat i cant hink of that really shows yodas power is when he was on a crashing republic star ship falling into orbit, he used the force to pull the ship back out into space saving countless lives, without even fainting, mind you he caught palps lightening, the only reason he got knocked back was the same reason magnets get knocked back it was 2 chages of the same charge so obviously the force became 2 great for both of them, and that reverts back to yoda stopping becuase 1 palps kept the high ground ironically, and 2 yodas anger, if this battle had taken place on geonosis however yoda would bring the force of the order down upon their sith heads, and yes ani would have easily have been the most powerful force user to ever live, or equal to that of luke anyways, so thats still brings the facts down yes palp is very very strong, but he in no way could handle mace and yoda, and you cant say that yoda and mace wouldnt dispatch dooku and ani like they were mere younglings, i mean come on, mace isnt a force sissy either lol, feats can be posted on that a well plus he has shatterpoint its a force ability that lets him see ANY weaknesses his enemy may have in combat, and he can almost ALWAYS get it, hence how he beat palps, so thats basically a foresight so i see it goes like this, yoda holds off palps, while obi and mace kill ani and dooku obi may die or be mamed in the process tho but hell mace could solo those 2....lets be honest here, and then windu and yoda have a pretty epic dual with palps but he ultimately gets defeated by the 2 jedi juggernauts, also mace can tap into the darkside of the force without feeling its corruption, edited, thought i would add that, and im basing all my facts in mace seeing as how everyone underestimates how strong he actually is, hes a beast, a very very very angry beast lol, everyone already has a grasp on how strong yoda is.

#11 Edited by BillyTheFox (12 posts) - - Show Bio

@decepticondave_ said:

first off revan is the most powerful sith/jedi in history, period :)

....

That was... really the one thing I paid attention to in your wall of text. Trust me, Revan is certainly one of the most powerful Force users in SW canon, but he's not Palpatine level. Hell, he wasn't even Vitiate level. He held Revan captive for three centuries or so before Revan finally got free.

And you're telling me that Revan had more Force Potential than Anakin Skywalker, who was himself conceived by the Force in order to bite back at Plagueis and Palps for screwing with the midi-chlorians? I don't think so.

Regardless of that, we're getting off-topic. The topic is the 3-on-3 battle we're supposed to be talking about.

#12 Posted by decepticondave_ (185 posts) - - Show Bio

@BillyTheFox: so you are gonna ignore the facts of the 3v3? after i made 1 statement about revan and ignore the rest of my argument? alrighty im done here then lol ive made my point clear with facts that the obvious side here is the order lol, it wouldnt be close in terms of feats, and powers, and thats all we really have to use as a basis of who would win xD so im out until an argument can state otherwise. haha

#13 Posted by Jedi Wolverine (176 posts) - - Show Bio

@decepticondave_ said:

@BillyTheFox: first off revan is the most powerful sith/jedi in history, period :) palps is strong but yoda is stronger, plus there have been plenty of sith who are far more powerful than palps, i could name 10 that easily defeat him, like the current emperor in SWTOR, google his feat on how he became the current xD its pretty amazing if i do say so myself, but anyways back to the subject at hand, if you wanna talk force feats, yoda, seeing what ive saw in the movies, threw those senate seats UP and sidious threw them DOWN and it took yoda no strain to put a back spin on 1? plus the most notable feat i cant hink of that really shows yodas power is when he was on a crashing republic star ship falling into orbit, he used the force to pull the ship back out into space saving countless lives, without even fainting, mind you he caught palps lightening, the only reason he got knocked back was the same reason magnets get knocked back it was 2 chages of the same charge so obviously the force became 2 great for both of them, and that reverts back to yoda stopping becuase 1 palps kept the high ground ironically, and 2 yodas anger, if this battle had taken place on geonosis however yoda would bring the force of the order down upon their sith heads, and yes ani would have easily have been the most powerful force user to ever live, or equal to that of luke anyways, so thats still brings the facts down yes palp is very very strong, but he in no way could handle mace and yoda, and you cant say that yoda and mace wouldnt dispatch dooku and ani like they were mere younglings, i mean come on, mace isnt a force sissy either lol, feats can be posted on that a well plus he has shatterpoint its a force ability that lets him see ANY weaknesses his enemy may have in combat, and he can almost ALWAYS get it, hence how he beat palps, so thats basically a foresight so i see it goes like this, yoda holds off palps, while obi and mace kill ani and dooku obi may die or be mamed in the process tho but hell mace could solo those 2....lets be honest here, and then windu and yoda have a pretty epic dual with palps but he ultimately gets defeated by the 2 jedi juggernauts, also mace can tap into the darkside of the force without feeling its corruption, edited, thought i would add that, and im basing all my facts in mace seeing as how everyone underestimates how strong he actually is, hes a beast, a very very very angry beast lol, everyone already has a grasp on how strong yoda is.

Are you sure you could name 10 sith that could easily defeat Palpatine?...................

On topic - Movie versions, im going to side with Team Yoda

EU (comicbook) versions then Team Palpatine should win

#14 Posted by Saren (25679 posts) - - Show Bio

Isn't Revan way below Sidious as far as the Sith go? And thus below Luke as well as far as the Jedi go? I'm not seeing how he's "the most powerful Sith/Jedi in history, period".

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#15 Posted by Nightflash (713 posts) - - Show Bio

Mace Windu is the best sith killer considering his sword technique because it allows you to channel darkness but since it's a team match i will have to give it too the SITH. Palpatine will destroy obi wan and with the help of dooku they'll kill yoda rather easily and by the time they're done mace windu will have killed anakin after a kinda of tough fight and he would be overpowered by the remaining SITH. and by the way revan is not the strongest jedi in star wars history but strongest during his time.

#16 Posted by joshuagamer (634 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow, you really don't like the dark side. Count Dooku could be taken out by anyone on team 2. Since you said Anakin and not Darth Vader, I assume you mean when he was younger, therefore he could be taken care of by Obi Wan (without the lava environment though, Anakin may win, so Mace could take Anakin out). Mace Windu is also better than Sidious as his form of lightsaber dueling defeated the sith lord before Windu got sucker-chopped by Anakin. As for Yoda... he's freakin' Yoda for goodness sake.

#17 Posted by JediXMan (30630 posts) - - Show Bio
@CitizenBane said:

Isn't Revan way below Sidious as far as the Sith go? And thus below Luke as well as far as the Jedi go? I'm not seeing how he's "the most powerful Sith/Jedi in history, period".

He's not. At all. If you want, I can give you a complete list of his best feats - it is a short, slightly impressive list.
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#18 Posted by Saren (25679 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: Ha, yeah, I've seen Silver call him one of the two most overrated SW characters of all time, next to Starkiller.

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#19 Posted by JediXMan (30630 posts) - - Show Bio
@CitizenBane said:

@JediXMan: Ha, yeah, I've seen Silver call him one of the two most overrated SW characters of all time, next to Starkiller.

He is - and it really pains me. He is one of my favorite characters. He's great, but very overrated. Though now he actually has some feats, which is kinda nice...
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#20 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (24907 posts) - - Show Bio

@decepticondave_: even managed to defeat Darth Sidious

No he never Palpatine let him win. All of this is Taken from Silver 2467.

This is a heated topic, and one which both myself and JediXMan have become rather tired of. But I want to write this out here so I can avoid having to re-explain it ad nauseum on the forums. The debate over whether Palpatine truly lost to Mace Windu in Revenge of the Sith or whether he allowed Mace to win in order to win over Anakin is a complex subject. In this blog, I will describe (and provide proof of) the circumstances of the duel, clear up misconceptions, and give my opinion on it. I will say that my perspective on the matter may not be perfectly accurate, but if nothing else, mine is the most evidentially supported. I can respect if others disagree with my assessment, but I would also appreciate it if you consider the case I present here and make an objective consensus on it. If in doing that, you still disagree, fair enough, but if I challenge you in the forums about it, you will need to be able to provide reasoning for it.

Let me start by posting their duel. I believe everyone has seen the movie; so allow me to post the sequence from the novel, as that grants a better view of the whole picture.

The Coruscant nightfall was spreading through the galaxy. The darkness in the Force was no hindrance to the shadow in the Chancellor's office; it was the darkness. Wherever darkness dwelled, the shadow could send perception. In the night, the shadow felt the boy's anguish, and it was good. The shadow felt the grim determination of four Jedi Masters approaching by air. This, too, was good.
As a Jedi shuttle settled to the landing deck outside, the shadow sent its mind into the far deeper night within one of the several pieces of sculpture that graced the office: an abstract twist of solid neuranium, so heavy that the office floor had been specially reinforced to bear its weight, so dense that more sensitive species might, from very close range, actually perceive the tiny warping of the fabric of space-time that was its gravitation.
Neuranium of more than roughly a millimeter thick is impervious to sensors; the standard security scans undergone by all equipment and furniture to enter the Senate Office Building had shown nothing at all. If anyone had thought to use an advanced gravimetric detector, however, they might have discovered that one smallish section of the sculpture massed slightly less than it should have, given that the manifest that had accompanied it, when it was brought from Naboo among the then-ambassador's personal effects, clearly stated that it was a single piece of solid-forged neuranium.
The manifest was a lie. The sculpture was not entirely solid, and not all of it was neuranium. Within a long, slim, rod-shaped cavity around which the sculpture had been forged rested a device that had lain, waiting, in absolute darkness—darkness beyond darkness—for decades. Waiting for night to fall on the Republic.
The shadow felt Jedi Masters stride the vast echoic emptiness of the vaulted halls outside. It could practically hear the cadence of their boot heels on the Alderaanian marble. The darkness within the sculpture whispered of the shape and the feel and every intimate resonance of the device it cradled. With a twist of its will, the shadow triggered the device. The neuranium got warm. A small round spot, smaller than the circle a human child might make of thumb and forefinger, turned the color of old blood.
Then fresh blood.
Then open flame.
Finally a spear of scarlet energy lanced free, painting the office with the color of stars seen through the smoke of burning planets. The spear of energy lengthened, drawing with it out from the darkness the device, then the scarlet blade shrank away and the device slid itself within the softer darkness of a sleeve.
As shouts of the Force scattered Redrobes beyond the office's outer doors, the shadow gestured and lampdisks ignited. Another shout of the Force burst open the inner door to the private office. As Jedi stormed in, a final flick of the shadow's will triggered a recording device concealed within the desk.
Audio only.
"Why, Master Windu," said the shadow. "What a pleasant surprise."

Shaak Ti felt him coming before she could see him. The infra-and ultrasound-sensitive cavities in the tall, curving montrals to either side of her head gave her a sense analogous to touch: the texture of his approaching footsteps was ragged as old sacking. As he rounded the corner to the landing deck door, his breathing felt like a pile of gravel and his heartbeat was spiking like a Zabrak's head. He didn't look good, either; he was deathly pale, even for a human, and his eyes were raw.
"Anakin," she said warmly. Perhaps a friendly word was what he needed; she doubted he'd gotten many from Mace Windu. "Thank you for what you have done. The Jedi Order is in your debt—the whole galaxy, as well."
"Shaak Ti. Get out of my way."
Shaky as he looked, there was nothing unsteady in his voice: it was deeper than she remembered, more mature, and it carried undertones of authority that she had never heard before. And she was not blind to the fact he had neglected to call her Master.
She put forth a hand, offering calming energies through the Force. "The Temple is sealed, Anakin. The door is code-locked."
"And you're in the way of the pad."
She stepped aside, allowing him to the pad; she had no reason to keep him here against his will. He punched the code hungrily. "If Palpatine retaliates," she said reasonably, "is not your place here, to help with our defense?"
"I'm the chosen one. My place is there." His breathing roughened, and he looked as if he was getting even sicker. "I have to be there. That's the prophecy, isn't it? I have to be there—"
"Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?" The door slid open.
"I'm the chosen one," he repeated. "Prophecy can't be changed. I'll do—" He looked at her with eyes that were dying, and a spasm of unendurable pain passed over his face. Shaak Ti reached for him—he should be in the infirmary, not heading toward what might be a savage battle—but he lurched away from her hand. "I'll do what I'm supposed to do," he said, and sprinted into the night and the rain.

[the following is a transcript of an audio recording presented before the Galactic Senate on the afternoon of the first Empire Day; identities of all speakers verified and confirmed by voiceprint analysis]
PALPATINE: Why, Master Windu. What a pleasant surprise.
MACE WINDU: Hardly a surprise, Chancellor. And it will be pleasant for neither of us.
PALPATINE: I'm sorry? Master Fisto, hello. Master Kolar, greetings. I trust you are well. Master Tiin—I see your horn has regrown; I'm very glad. What brings four Jedi Masters to my office at this hour?
your horn has regrown; I'm very glad. What brings four Jedi Masters to my office at this hour?
MACE WINDU: We know who you are. What you are. We are here to take you into custody.
PALPATINE: I beg your pardon? What I am? When last I checked, I was Supreme Chancellor of the Republic you are sworn to serve. I hope I misunderstand what you mean by custody, Master Windu. It smacks of treason.
MACE WINDU: You're under arrest.
PALPATINE: Really, Master Windu, you cannot be serious. On what charge?
MACE WINDU: You're a Sith Lord!
PALPATINE: Am I? Even if true, that's hardly a crime. My philosophical outlook is a personal matter. In fact—the last time I read the Constitution, anyway—we have very strict laws against this type of persecution. So I ask you again: what is my alleged crime? How do you expect to justify your mutiny before the Senate? Or do you intend to arrest the Senate as well?
MACE WINDU: We're not here to argue with you.
PALPATINE: No, you're here to imprison me without trial. Without even the pretense of legality. So this is the plan, at last: the Jedi are taking over the Republic.
MACE WINDU: Come with us. Now.
PALPATINE: I shall do no such thing. If you intend to murder me, you can do so right here.
MACE WINDU: Don't try to resist.
[sounds that have been identified by frequency resonances to be the ignition of several lightsabers]
PALPATINE: Resist? How could I possibly resist? This is murder, you Jedi traitors! How can I be any threat to you? Master Tiin—you're the telepath. What am I thinking right now?
[sounds of scuffle]
KIT FISTO: Saesee—
AGEN KOLAR: [garbled; possibly "It doesn't hurt"(?)]
[sounds of scuffle]
PALPATINE: Help! Help! Security—someone! Help me! Murder! Treason!
[recording ends]
A fountain of amethyst energy burst from Mace Windu's fist. "Don't try to resist."
The song of his blade was echoed by green fire from the hands of Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin. Kolar and Tiin closed on Palpatine, blocking the path to the door. Shadows dripped and oozed color, weaving and coiling up office walls slipping over chairs, spreading along the floor.
"Resist? How could I possibly resist?" Still seated at the desk Palpatine shook an empty fist helplessly, the perfect image of a tired, frightened old man. "This is murder, you Jedi traitors! How can I be any threat to you?"
He turned desperately to Saesee Tiin. "Master Tiin—you're the telepath. What am I thinking right now?" Tiin frowned and cocked his head. His blade dipped. A smear of red-flashing darkness hurtled from behind the desk. Saesee Tiin's head bounced when it hit the floor. Smoke curled from the neck, and from the twin stumps of the horns, severed just below the chin.
Kit Fisto gasped, "Saesee!"
The headless corpse, still standing, twisted as its knees buckled, and a thin sigh escaped from its trachea as it folded to the floor.
"It doesn't..." Agen Kolar swayed. His emerald blade shrank away, and the handgrip tumbled from his opening fingers. A small, neat hole in the middle of his forehead leaked smoke, showing light from the back of his head. "...hurt..." He pitched forward onto his face, and lay still.
Palpatine stood at the doorway, but the door stayed shut. From his right hand extended a blade the color of fire. The door locked itself at his back.
"Help! Help!" Palpatine cried like a man in desperate fear for his life. "Security—someone! Help me! Murder! Treason!"
Then he smiled. He held one finger to his lips, and, astonishingly, he winked. In the blank second that followed, while Mace Windu and Kit Fisto could do no more than angle their lightsabers to guard, Palpatine swiftly stepped over the bodies back toward his desk, reversed his blade, and drove it in a swift, surgically precise stab down through his desktop.
"That's enough of that."
He let it burn its way free through the front, then he turned, lifting his weapon, appearing to study it as one might study the face of a beloved friend one has long thought dead. Power gathered around him until the Force shimmered with darkness.
"If you only knew," he said softly, perhaps speaking to the Jedi Masters, or perhaps to himself, or perhaps even to the scarlet blade lifted now as though in mocking salute, "how long I have been waiting for this..."

Anakin's speeder shrieked through the rain, dodging forked bolts of lightning that shot up from towers into the clouds, slicing across traffic lanes, screaming past spacescrapers so fast that his shock-wake cracked windows as he passed.
He didn't understand why people didn't just get out of his way. He didn't understand how the trillion beings who jammed Galactic City could go about their trivial business as though the universe hadn't changed. How could they think they counted for anything, compared with him? How could they think they still mattered? Their blind lives meant nothing now. None of them. Because ahead, on the vast cliff face of the Senate Office Building, one window spat lightning into the rain to echo the lightning of the storm outside—but this lightning was the color of clashing lightsabers.
Green fans, sheets of purple—
And crimson flame. He was too late. The green fire faded and winked out; now the lightning was only purple and red.
His repulsorlifts howled as he heeled the speeder up onto its side, skidding through wind-shear turbulence to bring it to a bobbing halt outside the window of Palpatine's private office. A blast of lightning hit the spire of 500 Republica, only a kilometer away, and its white burst flared off the window, flash-blinding him; he blinked furiously, slapping at his eyes in frustration. The colorless glare inside his eyes faded slowly, bringing into focus a jumble of bodies on the floor of Palpatine's private office. Bodies in Jedi robes.
On Palpatine's desk lay the head of Kit Fisto, faceup, scalp-tentacles unbound in a squid-tangle across the ebonite. His lidless eyes stared blindly at the ceiling. Anakin remembered him in the arena at Geonosis, effortlessly carving his way through wave after wave of combat droids, on his lips a gently humorous smile as though the horrific battle were only some friendly jest. His severed head wore that same smile. Maybe he thought death was funny, too.
Anakin's own blade sang blue as it slashed through the window and he dived through the gap. He rolled to his feet among a litter of bodies and sprinted through a shattered door along the small private corridor and through a doorway that flashed and flared with energy-scatter. Anakin skidded to a stop.
Within the public office of the Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic, a last Jedi Master battled alone, blade-to-blade, against a living shadow.

Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life. More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their own ways. He was fighting for the Republic that he loved.
Vaapad, the seventh form of lightsaber combat, takes its name from a notoriously dangerous predator native to the moons of Sarapin: a vaapad attacks its prey with whipping strikes of its blindingly fast tentacles. Most have at least seven. It is not uncommon for them to have as many as twelve; the largest ever killed had twenty-three. With a vaapad, one never knew how many tentacles it had until it was dead: they move too fast to count. Almost too fast to see. So did Mace's blade.
Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side. Mace Windu created this style, and he was its only living master. This was Vaapad's ultimate test.

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.
The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?
Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.
Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts. There was no Jedi restraint here. Mace Windu was cutting loose.

Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.
There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared. He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power. He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But—
Neither did he have power over it.
Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.
Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift. The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source. Feeling for its shatterpoint. He found a knot of fault lines in the shadow's future; he chose the largest fracture and followed it back to the here and the now—
And it led him, astonishingly, to a man standing frozen in the slashed-open doorway. Mace had no need to look; the presence in the Force was familiar, and was as uplifting as sunlight breaking through a thunderhead. The chosen one was here.
Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish. His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.
He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete. Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half.
One piece flipped back in through the cut-open window. The other tumbled from opening fingers, bounced on the ledge, and fell through the rain toward the distant alleys below. Now the shadow was only Palpatine: old and shrunken, thinning hair bleached white by time and care, face lined with exhaustion.
"For all your power, you are no Jedi. All you are, my lord," Mace said evenly, staring past his blade, "is under arrest."
"Do you see, Anakin? Do you?" Palpatine's voice once again had the broken cadence of a frightened old man's. "Didn't I warn you of the Jedi and their treason?"
"Save your twisted words, my lord. There are no politicians here. The Sith will never regain control of the Republic. It's over. You've lost." Mace leveled his blade. "You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear."
Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons.
"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"
Lighting blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source. Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that loured from his hands only intensified. He fed the power with his pain.
"Anakin!" Mace called. His voice sounded distant, blurred, as if it came from the bottom of a well. "Anakin, help me! This is your chance!"
He felt Anakin's leap from the office floor to the ledge, felt his approach behind—And Palpatine was not afraid. Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all. "Destroy this traitor," the Chancellor said, his voice raised aver the howl of writhing energy that joined his hands to Mace's blade. "This was never an arrest. It's an assassination!"
That was when Mace finally understood. He had it. The key to final victory. Palpatine's shatterpoint. The absolute shatterpoint of the Sith. The shatterpoint of the dark side itself. Mace thought, blankly astonished, Palpatine trusts Anakin Skywalker...
Now Anakin was at Mace's shoulder. Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.
Palpatine's eyes glowed with power, casting a yellow glare that burned back the rain from around them. "He is a traitor, Anakin. Destroy him."
"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny.'"
Skywalker echoed him faintly. "Destiny..."
"Help me! I can't hold on any longer!" The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. "He is killing me, Anakin—! Please, Anaaahhh—"
Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"
"Ahhh—" Palpatine's roar above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair. The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge. "I... can't. I give up. I... I am too weak, in the end. Too old, and too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender."
Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade. "You Sith disease—"
"Wait—" Skywalker seized his lightsaber arm with desperate strength. "Don't kill him—you can't just kill him, Master—"
"Yes, I can," Mace said, grim and certain. "I have to."
"You came to arrest him. He has to stand trial—"
"A trial would be a joke. He controls the courts. He controls the Senate—"
"So are you going to kill all them, too? Like he said you would?"
Mace yanked his arm free. "He's too dangerous to be left alive. If you could have taken Dooku alive, would you have?"
Skywalker's face swept itself clean of emotion. "That was different—"
Mace turned toward the cringing, beaten Sith Lord. "You can explain the difference after he's dead." He raised his lightsaber.
"I need him alive!" Skywalker shouted. "I need him to save Padme!"
Mace thought blankly, Why? And moved his lightsaber toward the fallen Chancellor. Before he could follow through on his stroke, a sudden arc of blue plasma sheared through his wrist and his hand tumbled away with his lightsaber still in it and Palpatine roared back to his feet and lightning speared from the Sith Lord's hands and without his blade to catch it, the power of Palpatine's hate struck him full-on.
He had been so intent on Palpatine's shatterpoint that he'd never thought to look for Anakin's. Dark lightning blasted away his universe. He fell forever. Anakin Skywalker knelt in the rain. He was looking at a hand. The hand had brown skin. The hand held a lightsaber. The hand had a charred oval of tissue where it should have been attached to an arm.
"What have I done?" Was it his voice? It must have been. Because it was his question. "What have I done?"
Another hand, a warm and human hand, laid itself softly on his shoulder. "You're following your destiny, Anakin," said a familiar gentle voice. "The Jedi are traitors. You saved the Republic from their treachery. You can see that, can't you?"
"You were right," Anakin heard himself saying. "Why didn't I know?"
"You couldn't have. They cloaked themselves in deception, my boy. Because they feared your power, they could never trust you."
Anakin stared at the hand, but he no longer saw it. "Obi-Wan—Obi-Wan trusts me..."
"Not enough to tell you of their plot."
Treason echoed in his memory.
...this is not an assignment for the record...
That warm and human hand gave his shoulder a warm and human squeeze. "I do not fear your power, Anakin, I embrace it. You are the greatest of the Jedi. You can be the greatest of the Sith. I believe that, Anakin. I believe in you. I trust you. I trust you. I trust you."
Anakin looked from the dead hand on the ledge to the living one on his shoulder, then up to the face of the man who stood above him, and what he saw there choked him like an invisible fist crushing his throat. The hand on his shoulder was human. The face... wasn't.
The eyes were a cold and feral yellow, and they gleamed like those of a predator lurking beyond a fringe of firelight; the bone around those feral eyes had swollen and melted and flowed like durasteel spilled from a fusion smelter, and the flesh that blanketed it had gone corpse-gray and coarse as rotten synthplast. Stunned with horror, stunned with revulsion, Anakin could only stare at the creature. At the shadow. Looking into the face of the darkness, he saw his future.
"Now come inside," the darkness said.
After a moment, he did. Anakin stood just within the office. Motionless. Palpatine examined the damage to his face in a broad expanse of wall mirror. Anakin couldn't tell if his expression might be revulsion, or if this were merely the new shape of his features. Palpatine lifted one tentative hand to the misshapen horror that he now saw in the mirror, then simply shrugged.
"And so the mask becomes the man," he sighed with a hint of philosophical melancholy. "I shall miss the face of Palpatine, I think; but for our purpose, the face of Sidious will serve. Yes, it will serve."

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Now, there are some very particular issues that need to be noted here, and despite the intended outcome being somewhat unclear, there are certainties, such as the following:

  • Mace's speed/power was dramatically amped. He was operating on an exceptionally higher level than he ever has before, due to the events that took place.
  • In terms of sheer skill, even with a huge speed and power amp, he still only fought Sidious as a perfect equal.
  • Mace beat Palpatine by exploiting fear in him, but this fear was never there to begin with.
  • Palpatine could have killed Mace with Force Lightning anytime he wanted.
  • Yoda is factually a superior duelist to Mace, yet Palpatine fought evenly with him.

For the first point, let me show how this happened. Mace received a temporary, critical speed augmentation for this one duel. This happened because of the nature of Vaapad. Vaapad is an off-shoot of the Juyo form of lightsaber combat. Juyo is an aggressive and erratic fighting form, much more than even Ataru is, and it is this aggression that has made it a matter of discussion among Jedi whether Juyo is a safe style to learn. It relies on simply relentless strokes thrown continually until the user's opponent is defeated. The notable difference between Juyo and Vaapad is that Vaapad is a channel for darkness. It takes the user "through the penumbra of the dark side." Vaapad affords the practitioner the ability to harness their own inner darkness as a ferocity and drive in combat but does so without them falling victim to their darkness. Basically, Mace or Sora or Depa could draw on their darkness and still stay true to the light. Vaapad also works to turn the darkness of the enemy against them, but this has its limitations. It does not equate to an instant victory against any dark sider; if it did, Mace would not have lost his fight with Kar Vastor. The more darkness in the user, the more potent Vaapad will be. However, in Mace's duel with Palpatine, he achieved a fighting state he had never accomplished before, and this happened because, at that time, the darkness within him had been monumentally increased. It was increased because Mace had an attachment to the Republic that was shattered when Anakin told him that Palpatine, the Republic's Supreme Chancellor, was the Sith. The Republic he had been fighting for had already fallen under the Sith's influence, and this affected him at his core, heightening his darkness. On account of that, Mace managed to wield his own immensely accentuated darkness, Sidious' darkness, and Anakin's fear in order to enhance his speed so much that Anakin was unable to see the movements of Mace's blade and instead only saw the dozens of afterimages of it and the "nets" and "oblate sphere" he blurred from his lightsaber. Mace has never shown to be faster than Anakin or anyone of Anakin's speed class. Characters such as General Grievous, Asajj Ventress, Count Dooku, Saesee Tiin, Anakin, and others are all roughly even in speed (Anakin has demonstrated feats of speed that imply he could be faster when operating at his peak). Mace and Dooku dueled briefly on Boz Pity without Mace gaining any advantage. Ventress fought with Mace briefly before her being forced to flee, but he never outmatched her in speed. Grievous roughly stalemated Mace in a duel. Point is, Windu's consistent feats show that he is nowhere near the fighting speed depicted in his duel with Palpatine, and the book makes it very clear that he was amped in that fight.

Because Mace, too, has an attachment. Mace has a secret love. Mace Windu loves the Republic.
Many of his students quote him to students of their own: "Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace."
For Mace Windu, for all his life, for all the lives of a thousand years of Jedi before him, true civilization has had only one true name: the Republic.
He has given his life in the service of his love. He has taken lives in its service, and lost the lives of innocents. He has seen beings that he cares for maimed, and killed, and sometimes worse: sometimes so broken by the horror of the struggle that their only answer was to commit horrors greater still.
And because of that love now, here, in this instant, Anakin Skywalker has nine words for him that shred his heart, burn its pieces, and feed him its smoking ashes.
Palpatine is Sidious. The Chancellor is the Sith Lord.
He doesn't even hear the words, not really; their true meaning is too large for his mind gather in all at once.
They mean that all he's done, and all that has been done to him—
That all the Order has accomplished, all it has suffered—
All the Galaxy itself has gone through, all the years of suffering and slaughter, the death of entire planets—
Has all been for nothing.
Because it was all done to save the Republic.
Which was already gone.
Which had already fallen.
The corpse of which had been defended only by a Jedi Order that was now under the command of a Dark Lord of the Sith. Mace Windu's entire existence has become crystal so shot-through with flaws that the hammer of those nine words has crushed him to sand.

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.
The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?
Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.
Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.

Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

As can be seen, Mace's own abilities were elevated for that one battle. To further solidify this point, Palpatine killed Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin before either could react. Both of them have speed feats that place them on an even level with Mace. So how is it they died so quickly, yet Mace, who is not faster than they are, could last? Another source even states that Palpatine killed Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto before Mace realized it, showing the difference in speed between Palpatine and Mace and showing that had Mace not tapped into a greater speed level/fighting state, he would have similarly been unable to match Palpatine's speed.

Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

So no matter how you look at this, if Mace never improved his fighting capabilities, he would have been cut down just as quickly as Saesee, Agen, and Kit were.

Next point: Mace only fought as a perfect equal with Palpatine. The novel is very clear that Mace, even when his speed and combat efficiency are so acutely aggrandized, is still only an equal with Palpatine in a duel.

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

This proves that Mace is incontestably not a better duelist than Sidious regardless of what some may think.

Which leads us to the next point: If Mace isn't a more skilled duelist, how did he win? Setting aside the possibility that Palpatine allowed him to, the novel shows that Windu won by exploiting Palpatine's fear which caused him to become distracted and slow down. Mace felt fear emanating around the office, which he believed was Palpatine's, and abused it by breaking the window, resulting in Palpatine hesitating when he stood near it for fear of falling down. This allowed Mace to land a blow that disarmed him.

Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish. His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.
He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete. Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half.
One piece flipped back in through the cut-open window. The other tumbled from opening fingers, bounced on the ledge, and fell through the rain toward the distant alleys below.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

So Mace capitalized on the fear. However, the fear he felt was not Palpatine's; it was Anakin's. Sidious seemed to somehow project Anakin's fear out through himself (either that, or Mace's Force senses are incredibly inaccurate, but it makes no sense to me that Mace would simply "miss" in detecting whose fear it was; it makes more sense that Palpatine misdirected it).

"For all your power, you are no Jedi. All you are, my lord," Mace said evenly, staring past his blade, "is under arrest."
"Do you see, Anakin? Do you?" Palpatine's voice once again had the broken cadence of a frightened old man's. "Didn't I warn you of the Jedi and their treason?"
"Save your twisted words, my lord. There are no politicians here. The Sith will never regain control of the Republic. It's over. You've lost." Mace leveled his blade. "You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear."
Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons.
"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"
Lighting blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source. Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that loured from his hands only intensified. He fed the power with his pain.
"Anakin!" Mace called. His voice sounded distant, blurred, as if it came from the bottom of a well. "Anakin, help me! This is your chance!"
He felt Anakin's leap from the office floor to the ledge, felt his approach behind—And Palpatine was not afraid. Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

But if Mace won by manipulating Palpatine's fear, how did he win if he was never afraid in the first place? This to me seems like the greatest implication from the book that Palpatine had set it all up, but it can be interpreted different ways.

Next: Palpatine could have killed Mace with Lightning at any point. When Sidious started firing Lightning at Mace after losing his lightsaber, he generated so much power with his Lightning that Mace's blade was being contorted. It literally bent back toward his face and would have slashed him if Palpatine continued. The book even goes so far to say that Vaapad is of no consequence; he just lacked the power to defend against it.

Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

With this, we can conclude that even if Mace could beat Palpatine in a duel (which is reaching because Mace is not only severely outclassed in speed but is not a better duelist than Sidious), Palpatine could still kill him with Lightning if he so chooses.

Last fact: Yoda is a better duelist than Mace. Nick Gillard, who was designated by Lucas to choreograph the duels in the movies and conversed with Lucas about character abilities, has stated twice that Yoda is superior to Mace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m2yIAxeBHA&feature=player_embedded (5:28 to 5:35)

"We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda."

http://web.archive.org/web/20051125042817/http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/bts/production/news20000711b.html

"Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda."

Yoda has also beaten Mace before. More than that, he has beaten Dooku twice, who was an equal to Mace.

Master Windu was also known within the Order for his unusual fighting style, one that he developed after studying the dueling styles of various lightsaber masters. His attacks consisted of relentless, unpredictable blows, like shots from an autoblaster. Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

--Taken from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

These are canon facts. Whether Mace beat Palpatine or not, these points cannot be overlooked.

One misconception I feel I should address is Lucas' remarks on the fight during the Revenge of the Sith commentary.

"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

If you fail to pay attention to context, this sounds like Lucas said that Mace in fact did defeat Palpatine. However, you need to notice the comment as a whole. Lucas starts off by offering a description on a certain scene, but then he moves on to tell how he fitted details in with one another. But this is the distinction: He describes a sequence of events as the viewer sees them at first, giving a brief background on what sequence in particular he is talking about, but then his focus shifts from what the audience sees to what the characters' intentions are and what they experience and think. So from the context of simply a perceivable sequence, no, this does not constitute proof that Lucas stated that Mace did really defeat Palpatine.

A last point, in the direct sequel novel to Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine, in his musings, notes that all of his plans for leading Anakin to the dark side had been successful. Anakin aiding him in the holding office, choosing Palpatine over the Jedi, was a crucial moment in his fall. It is entirely possible this indicates that Palpatine had set the entire incident up.

Darth Sidious had had most of his beloved Sith statues and ancient bas-reliefs removed from his ruined chambers in the Senate Office Building, where four Jedi had lost their lives and one had been converted to the dark side. Relocated to the throne room, the statues had been placed on the dais, the sculptures mounted on the long walls. Swiveling his throne, Sidious gazed at them now.
As some Jedi had feared from the start, Anakin had been ripe for conversion when Qui-Gon Jinn had first brought him to the Temple, and for well over a decade all of Sidious's plans for the boy had unfolded without incident.

--Taken from Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

Having gone through all of this, I think my opinion is obvious: I believe Sidious allowed Mace to win to persuade Anakin to help him. The events are too convenient. In the movie, Palpatine communicated with Anakin through the Force while Anakin was in the Council Chamber, goading him to come to the chancellor's office. In the novel, Palpatine sets up a recording device which he alters to make it sound as if he was the victim. Also in the novel, Palpatine notes that it is good that Windu, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto are coming, just as it is good that Anakin is coming. In the novel, Mace won by exploiting a fear in Palpatine that never existed in him at all. All of it just leads me to believe that Palpatine restricted himself purposefully. If you disagree, I can understand. This is only my opinion, not a fact. Do I believe this is a credible and logical assessment of the occurrences? Obviously, or else I wouldn't believe them. But the fact is that there is no fact on this. I don't believe we will ever really know without a doubt who won that duel, as I doubt it will ever be stated in any canon source or by anyone from Lucas Licensing. But we can draw a reasonable conclusion from it, and this is mine. However, simply because we have no irrefutable fact on whether Sidious lost on purpose or not, we do still have to acknowledge what the facts we do have that surround that ambiguity, such as the facts I covered above.

#21 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@CitizenBane said:

Isn't Revan way below Sidious as far as the Sith go? And thus below Luke as well as far as the Jedi go? I'm not seeing how he's "the most powerful Sith/Jedi in history, period".

Revan is not, nor was he ever, even close to being the most powerful Jedi or Sith. 
 
I should just let this go, because I can tell this will be a waste of time, but here we go... 
 

@decepticondave_

said:

well here is my breakdown of facts, 

You have no facts. Everything you said was wrong, and I can tell your only source for information is Wookieepedia. 
 

1 mace is the greatest lightsaber dualist of that era, even better than yoda,

False. Yoda is factually superior to Mace in lightsaber skill, and Yoda has beaten Mace before. 

To the uninitiated, lightsaber combat can seem like a confusing blur of swipes and blade clashes, but on close examination, the secrets of the Jedi Knights become clear. To understand the combat of these warriors, we must delve into the sacred history of the fabled Seven Forms of Jedi lightsaber combat and look at how these have played out in the Star Wars saga. Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen.

--Taken from Insider #62  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m2yIAxeBHA&feature=player_embedded

"We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda."

 
http://web.archive.org/web/20051125042817/http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/bts/production/news20000711b.html  

"Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda."

Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.

--Taken from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter 
 

Master Windu was also known within the Order for his unusual fighting style, one that he developed after studying the dueling styles of various lightsaber masters. His attacks consisted of relentless, unpredictable blows, like shots from an autoblaster. Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

--Taken from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook 
 
Mace is inferior to Yoda. 
 

he easily handled palp,

Right, he easily handled him. That must be why he only reached an impasse with Palpatine despite receiving a monumental power and speed amplification, right? 

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue. 
Impasse.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith 

now say what you will about "he planned on losing" ive read the books, thats not true, sorry bros, he lost.

You claim to have read the novels, and yet you either ignore what happened to be disingenuous or are simply not as informed as you pretend to be. Either way, the novel supported the idea that Palpatine threw the fight, and even if that is not the case, Mace's abilities were enhanced temporarily for that single duel. To explain: 
 
" Mace received a temporary, critical speed augmentation for this one duel. This happened because of the nature of Vaapad. Vaapad is an off-shoot of the Juyo form of lightsaber combat. Juyo is an aggressive and erratic fighting form, much more than even Ataru is, and it is this aggression that has made it a matter of discussion among Jedi whether Juyo is a safe style to learn. It relies on simply relentless strokes thrown continually until the user's opponent is defeated. The notable difference between Juyo and Vaapad is that Vaapad is a channel for darkness. It takes the user "through the penumbra of the dark side." Vaapad affords the practitioner the ability to harness their own inner darkness as a ferocity and drive in combat but does so without them falling victim to their darkness. Basically, Mace or Sora or Depa could draw on their darkness and still stay true to the light. Vaapad also works to turn the darkness of the enemy against them, but this has its limitations. It does not equate to an instant victory against any dark sider; if it did, Mace would not have lost his fight with Kar Vastor. The more darkness in the user, the more potent Vaapad will be. However, in Mace's duel with Palpatine, he achieved a fighting state he had never accomplished before, and this happened because, at that time, the darkness within him had been monumentally increased. It was increased because Mace had an attachment to the Republic that was shattered when Anakin told him that Palpatine, the Republic's Supreme Chancellor, was the Sith. The Republic he had been fighting for had already fallen under the Sith's influence, and this affected him at his core, heightening his darkness. On account of that, Mace managed to wield his own immensely accentuated darkness, Sidious' darkness, and Anakin's fear in order to enhance his speed so much that Anakin was unable to see the movements of Mace's blade and instead only saw the dozens of afterimages of it and the "nets" and "oblate sphere" he blurred from his lightsaber. Mace has never shown to be faster than Anakin or anyone of Anakin's speed class. Characters such as General Grievous, Asajj Ventress, Count Dooku, Saesee Tiin, Anakin, and others are all roughly even in speed (Anakin has demonstrated feats of speed that imply he could be faster when operating at his peak). Mace and Dooku dueled briefly on Boz Pity without Mace gaining any advantage. Ventress fought with Mace briefly before her being forced to flee, but he never outmatched her in speed. Grievous roughly stalemated Mace in a duel. Point is, Windu's consistent feats show that he is nowhere near the fighting speed depicted in his duel with Palpatine, and the book makes it very clear that he was amped in that fight.

Because Mace, too, has an attachment. Mace has a secret love. Mace Windu loves the Republic.
Many of his students quote him to students of their own: "Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace."
For Mace Windu, for all his life, for all the lives of a thousand years of Jedi before him, true civilization has had only one true name: the Republic.
He has given his life in the service of his love. He has taken lives in its service, and lost the lives of innocents. He has seen beings that he cares for maimed, and killed, and sometimes worse: sometimes so broken by the horror of the struggle that their only answer was to commit horrors greater still.
And because of that love now, here, in this instant, Anakin Skywalker has nine words for him that shred his heart, burn its pieces, and feed him its smoking ashes.
Palpatine is Sidious. The Chancellor is the Sith Lord.
He doesn't even hear the words, not really; their true meaning is too large for his mind gather in all at once.
They mean that all he's done, and all that has been done to him—
That all the Order has accomplished, all it has suffered—
All the Galaxy itself has gone through, all the years of suffering and slaughter, the death of entire planets—
Has all been for nothing.
Because it was all done to save the Republic.
Which was already gone.
Which had already fallen.
The corpse of which had been defended only by a Jedi Order that was now under the command of a Dark Lord of the Sith. Mace Windu's entire existence has become crystal so shot-through with flaws that the hammer of those nine words has crushed him to sand.

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own:an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once. 
The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine
Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening. 
Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts. 

Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith   
 
As can be seen, Mace's own abilities were elevated for that one battle. To further solidify this point, Palpatine killed Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin before either could react. Both of them have speed feats that place them on an even level with Mace. So how is it they died so quickly, yet Mace, who is not faster than they are, could last? Another source even states that Palpatine killed Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto before Mace realized it, showing the difference in speed between Palpatine and Mace and showing that had Mace not tapped into a greater speed level/fighting state, he would have similarly been unable to match Palpatine's speed. 

Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary    
 
So no matter how you look at this, if Mace never improved his fighting capabilities, he would have been cut down just as quickly as Saesee, Agen, and Kit were. 
 
Next: Palpatine could have killed Mace with Lightning at any point. When Sidious started firing Lightning at Mace after losing his lightsaber, he generated so much power with his Lightning that Mace's blade was being contorted. It literally bent back toward his face and would have slashed him if Palpatine continued. The book even goes so far to say that Vaapad is of no consequence; he just lacked the power to defend against it. 

Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith   
 
With this, we can conclude that even if Mace could beat Palpatine in a duel (which is reaching because Mace is not only severely outclassed in speed but is not a better duelist than Sidious), Palpatine could still kill him with Lightning if he so chooses."
http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/silver2467/palpatine-vs-mace-windu-what-really-happened/87-77247/ 
 
A drastically amped Mace is still only equal to Palpatine in a duel and can be killed by him anytime Palpatine pleases, and you seriously misrepresent this to show that he "easily" won? 

Vaapad is a far greater style than anyone else can muster, so mace could easily solo ani, and count, and hes already beat palp in the movies,

.... 
.... 
....
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I have never seen anyone on this site fanwank Mace to this degree. What utter nonsense are you spewing out? Dooku has beaten Mace before. Repeatedly. Mace is not superior to him, let alone to the extent that he could handle Dooku and Anakin simultaneously. Anakin in RotS is quite possibly as skilled as Mace is. He is certainly faster and more powerful, if nothing else, and if he is inferior, the gap is marginal.

Master Windu was also known within the Order for his unusual fighting style, one that he developed after studying the dueling styles of various lightsaber masters. His attacks consisted of relentless, unpredictable blows, like shots from an autoblaster. Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

--Taken from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook   

now on to yoda, when yoda isnt holding his anger back, or has morals he would turn ani and count into ground mush with his force powers,

Of course, he will turn Anakin, who is nearly as powerful as Yoda, into mush... 
 
Because this is so feasible. At any rate, you blatantly disregarded the OP, which states that morals are "IC" (in character). Yoda will be holding his anger back because this is his way.
 

the only reason he stopped fighting palp was for 2 reasons that i can observe, 1 he was getting angry and he will never chose that path, and 2 he wasnt able to defeat him without using his rage, so he banished himself to the swamps.

...What? Please show me a source that identifies that Yoda was becoming angry. 
 
But there is none, because I have read every sourcebook entry and the RotS novelization to know what was happening with Yoda. What happened is that he realize that he could never beat Palpatine. 

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark. 
In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force. Finally, he saw the truth. 
This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... 
just—
didn't—
have it. 
He'd never had it. He had lost before he started. He had lost before he was born.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith 

Other sources have reiterated this: 

Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

--Taken from The New Essential Chronology 
 

and Obi defeated ani when he was at his peak of rage, granted ani had to make a hard mistake for that to happen so lets call them perfectly even,

Obi-Wan fought well against Anakin when Anakin's emotions and mindset were hindering his skills and power. Rage is not enough; his bloodlust blinded him, preventing him from utilizing his peak skill.

Sidious had had enough. "No, you weren't," he said. "So just imagine what Yoda might have done to you." He flung his words with brutal honesty. "Obi-Wan triumphed because he went to Mustafar with a single intention in mind: to kill Darth Vader. If the Jedi Order had showed such resolute intention, if it had remained focused on what needed to be done rather than on fears of the dark side, it might have proved more difficult to topple and eradicate. You and I might have lost everything. Do you understand?"

But Vader remembered.
Remembered being in thrall of what he had done in Palpatine's office. Watching the old man plead for his life; listening to the old man promising that only he had the power to save Padme; rushing to his defense. Sith lightning hurling an astonished Mace Windu through what had been a window...
Anakin kneeling before Sidious and being dubbed Vader.
Go to the Jedi Temple, Sidious had said. We will catch them off balance. Do what must be done, Lord Vader Do not hesitate. Show no mercy. Only then will you be strong enough with the dark side to save Padme.
And so he had gone to the Temple.
Instrument of the same resolute intent that had carried Obi-Wan to Mustafar with one goal in mind: death to the enemy. 

But even Sidious hadn't foreseen Anakin's defeat by Obi-Wan Kenobi on Mustafar. Anakin had still been between worlds then, and vulnerable.

--Taken from Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader  
 
Lucas even mentioned how arrogant Anakin was acting in that duel. 

"There's a lot of discussion about arrogance both on the part of the Emperor and everybody else, and so the last real thing that, uh, Anakin says other than 'I hate you,' is 'You underestimate my power,' which is sort of a height of arrogance..."

--Taken from The Revenge of the Sith commentary   

Besides that, Obi-Wan won by fighting smarter than Anakin, not by virtue of being more skilled.

Obi-Wan turned his dive into a forward roll that left him barely teetering on the rim of a low cliff, just above the soft black sand of the riverbank. Anakin snarled a curse as he realized he'd been suckered, and leapt off his droid at Obi-Wan's back—
Half a second too slow.
Obi-Wan's whirl to parry didn't meet Anakin's blade. It met his knee. Then his other knee. And while Anakin was still in the air, burned-off lower legs only starting their topple down the cliff, Obi-Wan's recovery to guard brought his blade through Anakin's left arm above the elbow. He stepped back as Anakin fell.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith 
 
So, no, Obi-Wan is not equal to Anakin. He could hold his own, but he would lose. 
 

so by facts alone light saber dualing mace>yoda>palp>obi=-/=ani>count and force it would lay yoda>palp>mace>count>obi=/=ani, basically mace and yoda could duo this team, throwing obi in the fray only gives him someone to hold off ani while they rofl stomp the other 2, palp is the ONLY one here capable of beating anyone and thats on the sheer chance yoda is holding back. I can list feats if needed, not sure how many posts i have left today tho.

You have proven nothing. Palpatine is the best duelist here, followed by Yoda. Then Dooku and Mace, who are equals. Then Anakin, then Obi-Wan. In power, Palpatine>Yoda>Anakin>Mace/Dooku/Obi-Wan. 
 
The Sith win. 
 

@BillyTheFox: Windu was one of the greatest swordsmen of his time. He defeated Sora Bulq during their duel on Ruul and overwhelmed Asajj Ventress shortly afterwards. Windu also overwhelmed Count Dooku during the battle of Boz Pity and even managed to defeat Darth Sidious himself; a feat that even Grand Master Yoda had been unable to accomplish. Cited from wookiepedia, the feats mace windu has done clearly out matches any of the sith here, since hes beaten 2 of them already?

And here is that Wookieepedia garbage I talked about earlier. The only fact here is that Mace beat Asajj Ventress, who was forced to flee. He never beat Sora Bulq or Dooku. 
 
He only fought equally with Sora Bulq for a short time before using a Force Push to hurl him away and left to engage Ventress. Hurling your enemy back and then running away is not a victory.
Mace never beat Dooku at Boz Pity either. Dooku's plans had been realized, and he intended to escape because of the huge numbers of Jedi in the area. Mace confronted him, Dooku taunted him, neither of them landed a hit on the other, MagnaGuards knocked Mace off a hill, and Dooku casually walked away. Nothing here shows either one as superior to the other. 
And for the record, you listed defeating Sora Bulq as a feat for Mace, in spite of the fact that Mace never even accomplished that (which you would have known had you actually read the material instead of coughing up information off wikis), well, Dooku actually did beat Sora and Tholme concurrently. He disarms Sora, proving his lead over Bulq with a lightsaber, then strikes him with Lightning and then incapacitates Tholme.
You keep prattling on and on about how Mace is such a great duelist, and yet he lost to Yoda, lost to Dooku, lost to Kar Vastor, only stalemated Sora Bulq, only stalemated General Grievous, and so on. The only conclusive victory Mace has in a duel is beating Asajj Ventress. But you want me to believe he is the best duelist in the Order and can easily defeat Palpatine, Dooku, and Anakin?
 
Mace is a good duelist, one of the best. The single best? Not at all. Better than Dooku? No. Dooku has beaten Mace before. Dooku also beat Sora Bulq, whom Mace failed to beat. Dooku beat General Grievous repeatedly as well, whom Mace also failed to beat.

Grievous had been a delight to train, as well. No need to coax him to release his anger and rage, as Dooku had been forced to do during the training of his so-called Dark Jedi disciples. The Geonosians had arranged for Grievous to be nothing but anger and rage. And as to the general's combat skills, few, if any, Jedi would be capable of defeating him. There had been moments during the extensive combat sessions when even Dooku had been hard-pressed to outduel the cyborg.

--Taken from Labyrinth of Evil 

@decepticondave_

said:

@BillyTheFox: first off revan is the most powerful sith/jedi in history, period :)

Right....except not really. Revan has no feats to compare to someone like Luke, Palpatine, or Yoda. Furthermore, Yoda has been outright stated as the most powerful light sider to have existed up to his time:

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia   

And Palpatine is indeed the most powerful Sith Lord that ever existed. 

Posted by Canon:
With a crackle of energy the image solidified before the scientist's eyes. It was only a hologram, but it was a hologram of the most powerful being the galaxy had ever known. It was the Emperor himself. Although the scientist was seated at his control module, at the center of his own network of power, he trembled. He could order the deaths of hundreds if he wished. With his terrible knowledge he could engineer nightmares. But as powerful as the scientist was, the Emperor could snuff him out with little more than a thought.
--Taken from Planet Plague
 
Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
--Taken from The New Essential Chronology

The Sith have waited millennium for the birth of one who is powerful enough to return them from hiding. Darth Sidious is that one—the Sith's revenge on the Jedi order for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary
 

The Sith Order, in hiding for a millennium, had awaited the birth of one who was powerful enough to return the Order to prominence. Darth Sidious was the fulfillment of that prophecy, capable of exacting the Sith's revenge on the Jedi for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Darth Sidious proved to be the grim culmination of a thousand years of Sith philosophy and teachings.

--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force  

When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered—in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane—only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the strength of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge.

--Taken from The Dark Side Sourcebook

In truth, Palpatine was well versed in the ways of the Force, having been apprentice to Darth Plagueis the Wise, a Sith Lord who was a master of arcane and unnatural knowledge. In true Sith tradition, Palpatine murdered his Master upon receiving the skill and ability to do so.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

"My own Master, Darth Plagueis, made the grave error of teaching me too much, at which point he became unnecessary."

--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

Unknown to the Rebels, the Emperor had already laid the groundwork for the perpetual rule of his New Order. He had turned a Jedi into his new dark apprentice, the terrifying Darth Vader. Vader himself trained apprentices. And the Emperor created a corps of loyal, Force-skilled minions to maintain his rule. Most powerful of all, of course, was the Emperor himself.

--Taken from The Dark Side Sourcebook

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Even Ulic Qel-Droma would be envious of Palpatine. He had succeeded where all others had failed in taming the Dark Side.

--Taken from the Dark Empire Sourcebook

The key to Luke's turning is the moment when he and Leia realize the Emperor is no longer defined by his physical form, but has become a chaotic nexus of dark energies that swell and burst open the fabric of space, tearing apart everything in the vicinity, human and machine.

--Taken from the Dark Empire endnotes 

Any unusual localization, or vergence, of dark side Force energy. These strange locales emanated the dark side of the Force, and were considered focal points of power for dark side users. As such, they were often guarded by Jedi Knights to prevent their discovery and exploitation. Known dark side nexuses included the twisted tree-cave on Dagobah, Halagad Ventor's hermitage on Trinta, and a "stain" of dark side energy that hovered over Endor following the defeat of the Emperor.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

One structure in particular--columnar in shape, round-topped, propped by angular ramparts—rising from the defiled core of The Works like a stake driven into its heart. Strong in the dark side—made so by Darth Sidious—the building had been the place of Dooku's apprenticeship, just as it had served as a training ground for Darth Maul before Dooku, and who knew who or how many other Sith disciples before Maul.

--Taken from Labyrinth of Evil

And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness. A black hole of the Force.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Plagueis made a soothing gesture and explained in great detail what had taken place. Concluding, he said, "He threatened, too, to place you out of reach."
All the while Plagueis spoke, Palpatine was storming through circles on the narrow path, shaking his head in anger and balling his fists. "He can't do this!" he snarled. He hasn't the right! I won't allow it!" 
Palpatine's fury buffeted Plagueis. Blossoms growing along the sides of the pathway folded in on themselves, and their pollinators began to buzz in agitation. FourDee reacted, as well, wobbling on its feet, as if in the grip of a powerful electromagnet. Had this human truly been born of flesh-and-blood parents? Plagueis asked himself. When, in fact, he seemed sprung from nature itself. Was the Force so strong in him that it had concealed 
itself?

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Outside, the wind picked up another notch, shrieking and groaning among the eleven chimneys as if to announce the arrival of a hideous guest. Dooku's comm console chimed. He glanced over, expecting the daily report from General Grievous, or perhaps a message from Asajj Ventress. He reached over to open the channel, ecognized the digital signature of the incoming transmission, jabbed the channel open, and snapped to his feet. "You called, my Master?" 
The hologrammic projector on his desk sprang to life, and the wavering form of Darth Sidious regarded him. As always the picture was oozy and unclear, as if light itself were uneasy in the presence of the Lord of the Sith. Dark robes, purple shadows—a patch of skin, pale and mottled under his hooded cloak like a fungus growing under a rotten log. From under heavy lids the Master's eyes, snake-cold and serpent-wise, regarded him. 
"What would you have of me, Master?" 
"From you? Everything, of course." Darth Sidious sounded amused. "There was a time when I wasn't sure if you would be able to overcome that...independent streak of yours. After all, you were born to one of the wealthiest families in the galaxy, with gifts and abilities far, far greater than any amount of wealth could bestow. Your understanding is deep; your will, adamant. Is it any wonder you should be proud? Why, how could it be otherwise?" 
Dooku said, "I have always served you well and faithfully, my Master." 
"You have. But you must admit, your spirit was not made for fidelity. After all, a man who will not bow to the Jedi Council, or even Master Yoda...I wondered if perhaps loyalty was too mean, too confining a thing to ask from so great a being as yourself." 
Dooku tried to smile. "The war progresses well. Our plans are on schedule. I have dealt out your deaths, your schemes, your betrayals. I have paid for your war with my time, my riches, my friends, and my honor." 
"Holding nothing back?" Sidious asked lightly. 
"
Nothing. I swear it." 
"Excellent," Darth Sidious said. "Yoda came to the Chancellor's office this morning. He is going on a very special mission. Top secret." He laughed, a harsh sound like the bark of a crow. The wind rose again, shrieking around the mansion like a creature in torment. "When he arrives, Dooku...see that you treat him 
as he deserves." 
Darth Sidious laughed. Dooku wanted to laugh along, but couldn't quite manage it before his Master cut the connection and disappeared. 
 
Dooku paced his office. With the end of Sidious' call, the storm had slackened, and the shrieking wind outside now only sobbed quietly under the gables of Château Malreaux. 

--Taken from Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure.

--Taken from the Dark Empire Sourcebook


Feats:
  • Creating Force Storms capable of destroying fleets of ships and devastating the surfaces of planets
  • Surviving as a spirit whenever his body is killed and traveling as a spirit across lightyears of space
  • Making the planet Byss a dark side nexus
  • Siphoning the life energies of the nearly 20 billion inhabitants on Byss
  • Telepathically subjugating the wills of nearly 20 billion beings on Byss, erasing the memories of millions on Coruscant, and inducing fear into Jedi across the galaxy
  • Projecting Force Lightning capable of scorching Sithspawn to ash, burning people to skeletons, and contorting lightsaber blades
  • Causing the Force to become imbalanced to blind the Jedi's perceptions
  • Hiding his Force sensitivity from the most powerful Jedi in the Order
  • Perceiving events and eventualities throughout the galaxy
  • Altering the tides of battles by influencing armies and fleets
  • Controlling midi-chlorians to sustain life
  • Moving his lightsaber too fast to be seen by Jedi who can react to lightning bolts and ships flying at sublight speeds
This is not my opinion. This is fact. Revan has no feats to compare with any of the upper tier Jedi or Sith.
 

palps is strong but yoda is stronger, plus there have been plenty of sith who are far more powerful than palps, i could name 10 that easily defeat him, like the current emperor in SWTOR, google his feat on how he became the current xD its pretty amazing if i do say so myself,

You mean Vitiate, the guy who needed the help of hundreds of other Sith Lords and weeks of time to Drain a planet and render himself immortal? You think he is more powerful than a character who can destroy planetary surfaces, mind control billions, cause thousands of Jedi to experience fear/aggression, easily collapse buildings, fight too fast for Jedi to see, and so on? 
 
Again, Yoda is not more powerful than Sidious, and Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord. 
 

if you wanna talk force feats, yoda, seeing what ive saw in the movies, threw those senate seats UP and sidious threw them DOWN and it took yoda no strain to put a back spin on 1?

Yoda only threw one pod; the Emperor threw multiple without effort while floating on one in simultaneity. 
 

plus the most notable feat i cant hink of that really shows yodas power is when he was on a crashing republic star ship falling into orbit, he used the force to pull the ship back out into space saving countless lives,

Source? And by "source," I mean the story or sourcebook in which this occurred, not Wookieepedia.
 
Not that this matters. It hardly compares to a character who can Drain a planet or destroy buildings effortlessly. 
 

mind you he caught palps lightening, the only reason he got knocked back was the same reason magnets get knocked back it was 2 chages of the same charge so obviously the force became 2 great for both of them, and that reverts back to yoda stopping becuase 1 palps kept the high ground ironically, and 2 yodas anger, if this battle had taken place on geonosis however yoda would bring the force of the order down upon their sith heads, and yes ani would have easily have been the most powerful force user to ever live, or equal to that of luke anyways, so thats still brings the facts down yes palp is very very strong, but he in no way could handle mace and yoda, 

I like how you run off on this rant that is based on entirely fabricated information with no sources or factual veracity to substantiate your assertions. 
 
Prove all of this, or stop making up information. 
 

and you cant say that yoda and mace wouldnt dispatch dooku and ani like they were mere younglings, i mean come on, mace isnt a force sissy either lol, feats can be posted on that a well plus he has shatterpoint its a force ability that lets him see ANY weaknesses his enemy may have in combat, and he can almost ALWAYS get it, hence how he beat palps, so thats basically a foresight so i see it goes like this, yoda holds off palps, while obi and mace kill ani and dooku obi may die or be mamed in the process tho but hell mace could solo those 2....lets be honest here, and then windu and yoda have a pretty epic dual with palps but he ultimately gets defeated by the 2 jedi juggernauts, also mace can tap into the darkside of the force without feeling its corruption, edited, thought i would add that, and im basing all my facts in mace seeing as how everyone underestimates how strong he actually is, hes a beast, a very very very angry beast lol, everyone already has a grasp on how strong yoda is.

And again, none of this is true, but I already proved all of this false anyway. Just read my above comments. 
 

@decepticondave_

said:

alrighty im done here then

Thank God. 
 

@Nightflash

said:

Mace Windu is the best sith killer considering his sword technique because it allows you to channel darkness but since it's a team match i will have to give it too the SITH. Palpatine will destroy obi wan and with the help of dooku they'll kill yoda rather easily and by the time they're done mace windu will have killed anakin after a kinda of tough fight and he would be overpowered by the remaining SITH. and by the way revan is not the strongest jedi in star wars history but strongest during his time.

Mace brings nothing to the table that allows him to definitively beat anyone on Team 1. He factually loses to Palpatine, given that Sidious already proved he can kill Windu with Lightning at his choosing and given that he is too fast for Mace to even see. He is only equal with Dooku, and even if Mace is superior to Anakin with a lightsaber (debatable in its own right), Anakin greater speed and massively greater power could certainly clear the gap. 
 
The Sith win here just about every time.
#22 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

Isn't Revan way below Sidious as far as the Sith go? And thus below Luke as well as far as the Jedi go? I'm not seeing how he's "the most powerful Sith/Jedi in history, period".

Revan is massively overrated. He's an awesome character, but severely lacking in feats. His best feat to date was wrecking a Dark Council member by re-directing her power back at her. He's far off from being the most powerful.

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#23 Posted by JediXMan (30630 posts) - - Show Bio

@Deranged Midget said:

@CitizenBane said:

Isn't Revan way below Sidious as far as the Sith go? And thus below Luke as well as far as the Jedi go? I'm not seeing how he's "the most powerful Sith/Jedi in history, period".

Revan is massively overrated. He's an awesome character, but severely lacking in feats. His best feat to date was wrecking a Dark Council member by re-directing her power back at her. He's far off from being the most powerful.

Achieving what appears to be a form of Oneness and casually tossing open and closing two large heavy doors aren't bad feats, either.

But you're right.

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#24 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan said:

@Deranged Midget said:

@CitizenBane said:

Isn't Revan way below Sidious as far as the Sith go? And thus below Luke as well as far as the Jedi go? I'm not seeing how he's "the most powerful Sith/Jedi in history, period".

Revan is massively overrated. He's an awesome character, but severely lacking in feats. His best feat to date was wrecking a Dark Council member by re-directing her power back at her. He's far off from being the most powerful.

Achieving what appears to be a form of Oneness and casually tossing open and closing two large heavy doors aren't bad feats, either.

But you're right.

The form of "oneness" was impressive, but the opening of the Emperor's doors was meh. I could see most mid to high level force users replicating the feat.

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#25 Posted by steelhound56 (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011: Agreed. Mace was also amped out of his mind during his fight with Palpatine. And even amped up to unreal standards, Palps still threw the fight to give Anakin that final push into joining The Sith.

Sith take this. Dooku takes Obi Wan, Anakin can hold Mace off long enough for Palpatine to incapacitate Yoda. Then Palatine and Anakin gang up on Mace and crush him.

#26 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@steelhound56 said:

@dccomicsrule2011: Agreed. Mace was also amped out of his mind during his fight with Palpatine. And even amped up to unreal standards, Palps still threw the fight to give Anakin that final push into joining The Sith.

Sith take this. Dooku takes Obi Wan, Anakin can hold Mace off long enough for Palpatine to incapacitate Yoda. Then Palatine and Anakin gang up on Mace and crush him.

I agree with the majority of your post but do you really believe Anakin would have a harder time with Mace than Palpatine with Yoda? Palpatine was completely goading Mace and restricting himself in the majority of their brief battle and could've ended it quickly if needed be. Anakin, if his emotions weren't clouded as they were on Mustafar, would be far more agressive towards Mace and could possibly overpower him similarly as he did to Dooku.

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#27 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Deranged Midget said:

Palpatine was completely goading Mace and restricting himself in the majority of their brief battle

Palpatine never goaded Mace, unless you were referring to prior to the start of the duel, when he set up circumstances to give the appearance that he was the victim. The duel was entirely void of any dialog or any other means of goading that I could see. Beyond that, it was hardly a brief battle. Maybe in real time it was brief, but to the accelerated perceptions and thoughts of Mace and Sidious, it was a decently drawn out fight. 

Anakin, if his emotions weren't clouded as they were on Mustafar, would be far more agressive towards Mace and could possibly overpower him similarly as he did to Dooku.

Anakin overpowering Dooku was a combination of several factors, one of the primary ones being their respective lightsaber forms. Vaapad, being an extension of Juyo, is not as susceptible to the raw power that Djem So brings to bear as Makashi is. Now, this is not to say that Anakin couldn't overpower Mace, because there is a possibility he could. His skills by RotS were among the best, between beating Dooku and Cin Drallig, and it is conceivable that he was on Mace's level, maybe slightly higher. This is highly debatable though.
#28 Posted by JediXMan (30630 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

@CitizenBane said:

Isn't Revan way below Sidious as far as the Sith go? And thus below Luke as well as far as the Jedi go? I'm not seeing how he's "the most powerful Sith/Jedi in history, period".

Revan is not, nor was he ever, even close to being the most powerful Jedi or Sith.

I have a feeling BioWare is going to attempt to change that, though....

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#29 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan said:

@Silver2467 said:

@CitizenBane said:

Isn't Revan way below Sidious as far as the Sith go? And thus below Luke as well as far as the Jedi go? I'm not seeing how he's "the most powerful Sith/Jedi in history, period".

Revan is not, nor was he ever, even close to being the most powerful Jedi or Sith.

I have a feeling BioWare is going to attempt to change that, though....

At this point, I give no thought to what BioWare says. The entire TOR multimedia project needs to die for all the stupidity it keeps putting out.
#30 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: Yes, I meant in the way that he pretended to act the victim. Of course it's purely debatable whether Anakin could overpower Mace in a similar fashion to what he did to Dooku, but I could definitely see him gaining an upper hand. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Dooku bested Mace in combat before? Completely forgot about Dooku's far less defensive saber style, thanks for pointing that out.

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#31 Posted by JediXMan (30630 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

@JediXMan said:

@Silver2467 said:

@CitizenBane said:

Isn't Revan way below Sidious as far as the Sith go? And thus below Luke as well as far as the Jedi go? I'm not seeing how he's "the most powerful Sith/Jedi in history, period".

Revan is not, nor was he ever, even close to being the most powerful Jedi or Sith.

I have a feeling BioWare is going to attempt to change that, though....

At this point, I give no thought to what BioWare says. The entire TOR multimedia project needs to die for all the stupidity it keeps putting out.

I was against this whole hidden Sith Empire thing since I heard about it. Yeah it's a nice premise. but feels really cheap and unoriginal. It makes Palpatine's order look like a ripoff. And considering his Empire only lasted twenty three years (Dark Empire, pre-Empire, and the Remnants not included), it really kind of looks like a failure in its own way.

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#32 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Deranged Midget said:

@Silver2467: Yes, I meant in the way that he pretended to act the victim. Of course it's purely debatable whether Anakin could overpower Mace in a similar fashion to what he did to Dooku, but I could definitely see him gaining an upper hand. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Dooku bested Mace in combat before? Completely forgot about Dooku's far less defensive saber style, thanks for pointing that out.

Dooku has beaten Mace, but although this has never been outright stated to my knowledge, presumably Mace has beaten Dooku as well. They were equals according to an Insider issue. 
 
@JediXMan said:

@Silver2467 said:

@JediXMan said:

@Silver2467 said:

@CitizenBane said:

Isn't Revan way below Sidious as far as the Sith go? And thus below Luke as well as far as the Jedi go? I'm not seeing how he's "the most powerful Sith/Jedi in history, period".

Revan is not, nor was he ever, even close to being the most powerful Jedi or Sith.

I have a feeling BioWare is going to attempt to change that, though....

At this point, I give no thought to what BioWare says. The entire TOR multimedia project needs to die for all the stupidity it keeps putting out.

I was against this whole hidden Sith Empire thing since I heard about it. Yeah it's a nice premise. but feels really cheap and unoriginal. It makes Palpatine's order look like a ripoff. And considering his Empire only lasted twenty three years (Dark Empire, pre-Empire, and the Remnants not included), it really kind of looks like a failure in its own way.

That part, while moderately annoying, is hardly my main problem. If nothing else, there is the saving grace that Palpatine's Empire actually succeeded, while Vitiate's failed. So who cares if it lasted longer. The original Sith Empire lasted a couple millennia, but they were nowhere near as successful as the New Order. What really bothers me is all the unoriginality in characters/plot threads/etc., mishandling of the Force, mediocre writers (Karpyshyn, for instance), disregarding continuity (such as Sadow surviving, as one of many examples), and so on. There are numerous items to take issue with in that multimedia project, and I have become rather jaded with it. 
 
Now, if others enjoy it, by all means, keep enjoying it. I am not trying to tell anyone else what they should or should not like; this is just for me. I really dislike the direction of the whole TOR project. 
 
But anyway, you and I have had this discussion before.
#33 Posted by JediXMan (30630 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467:

Fair point.

I mean, I'm still playing it, but more for fun than the story. Though the personal stories of the characters we play isn't too bad.

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#34 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan: Oh, I am fairly confident that the stories of companion characters are good as they were in KOTOR 1 and 2; I was referring more to the plot of TOR as a whole (which I think you knew but just for clarification...).
#35 Posted by JediXMan (30630 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

@JediXMan: Oh, I am fairly confident that the stories of companion characters are good as they were in KOTOR 1 and 2; I was referring more to the plot of TOR as a whole (which I think you knew but just for clarification...).

I knew what you meant. I mean the story aside from the main plot is good (not as good as KOTOR, but still). It has good voice actors, the companions are rather unique, the plot is engaging, etc. Though this bothered me: the Sith Inquisitor gets a Togruta companion who, for lack of a better term, is a failed Padawan who embraced her anger and was too overconfident for her own good (remind you of another Togruta? Just saying). Well she leaves the Jedi and follows you, but guess what? SHE REFUSES TO BECOME SITH. Yeah, so she goes around saying "There is no emotion," "Don't make me go against my teachings," etc. Well get off my ship, you little brat! God she pissed me off... if I can't turn her, at least let me kill her...

The Sith Warrior companion was more interesting. Similar idea, but she embraces the Dark Side when you reveal the hypocrisy in her old master. Sure she becomes a whirling maelstrom of destructive insanity and becomes a true psychopath, but she turns to whatever alignment you are and I think that's a good thing.

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#36 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan: The game seems to be the best part of the whole multimedia projects. The novel and comic tie-ins...we could have done without some of the content there.
#37 Posted by ShootingNova (17225 posts) - - Show Bio

@decepticondave_ said:

@BillyTheFox: first off revan is the most powerful sith/jedi in history, period :) palps is strong but yoda is stronger, plus there have been plenty of sith who are far more powerful than palps, i could name 10 that easily defeat him, like the current emperor in SWTOR, google his feat on how he became the current xD its pretty amazing if i do say so myself, but anyways back to the subject at hand, if you wanna talk force feats, yoda, seeing what ive saw in the movies, threw those senate seats UP and sidious threw them DOWN and it took yoda no strain to put a back spin on 1? plus the most notable feat i cant hink of that really shows yodas power is when he was on a crashing republic star ship falling into orbit, he used the force to pull the ship back out into space saving countless lives, without even fainting, mind you he caught palps lightening, the only reason he got knocked back was the same reason magnets get knocked back it was 2 chages of the same charge so obviously the force became 2 great for both of them, and that reverts back to yoda stopping becuase 1 palps kept the high ground ironically, and 2 yodas anger, if this battle had taken place on geonosis however yoda would bring the force of the order down upon their sith heads, and yes ani would have easily have been the most powerful force user to ever live, or equal to that of luke anyways, so thats still brings the facts down yes palp is very very strong, but he in no way could handle mace and yoda, and you cant say that yoda and mace wouldnt dispatch dooku and ani like they were mere younglings, i mean come on, mace isnt a force sissy either lol, feats can be posted on that a well plus he has shatterpoint its a force ability that lets him see ANY weaknesses his enemy may have in combat, and he can almost ALWAYS get it, hence how he beat palps, so thats basically a foresight so i see it goes like this, yoda holds off palps, while obi and mace kill ani and dooku obi may die or be mamed in the process tho but hell mace could solo those 2....lets be honest here, and then windu and yoda have a pretty epic dual with palps but he ultimately gets defeated by the 2 jedi juggernauts, also mace can tap into the darkside of the force without feeling its corruption, edited, thought i would add that, and im basing all my facts in mace seeing as how everyone underestimates how strong he actually is, hes a beast, a very very very angry beast lol, everyone already has a grasp on how strong yoda is.

Firstly, Revan equals nowhere near close to Palpatine and Yoda and Luke. Most powerful Jedi/Sith equals Luke, stated by canon, period.

Palpatine is more powerful than Yoda.

There are less than 10 people that can defeat Palpatine.

Sith Emperor in TOR would get murdered like a Texan Wife against Palpatine.

Senate pods mean little. Sidious owns Revan with a Wormhole, speedblitz, Force Lightning, countless other powers, etc.

Luke was stated to become what Anakin could have become. Its debatable whether Anakin could have been more powerful.

Palpatine is much more powerful than either Yoda or Mace.

@Nightflash said:

Mace Windu is the best sith killer considering his sword technique because it allows you to channel darkness but since it's a team match i will have to give it too the SITH. Palpatine will destroy obi wan and with the help of dooku they'll kill yoda rather easily and by the time they're done mace windu will have killed anakin after a kinda of tough fight and he would be overpowered by the remaining SITH. and by the way revan is not the strongest jedi in star wars history but strongest during his time.

No, Luke is the greatest Sith killer.

@decepticondave_ said:

well here is my breakdown of facts, since we are using movie versions that means they are at the peak of their skill, ill start with saying that the order sweeps this dual in a crubstomp and here are my factual reasons, 1 mace is the greatest lightsaber dualist of that era, even better than yoda, he easily handled palp, now say what you will about "he planned on losing" ive read the books, thats not true, sorry bros, he lost. Vaapad is a far greater style than anyone else can muster, so mace could easily solo ani, and count, and hes already beat palp in the movies, now on to yoda, when yoda isnt holding his anger back, or has morals he would turn ani and count into ground mush with his force powers, plus hes only minorly below mace on lightsaber skills, the only reason he stopped fighting palp was for 2 reasons that i can observe, 1 he was getting angry and he will never chose that path, and 2 he wasnt able to defeat him without using his rage, so he banished himself to the swamps. and Obi defeated ani when he was at his peak of rage, granted ani had to make a hard mistake for that to happen so lets call them perfectly even, so by facts alone light saber dualing mace>yoda>palp>obi=-/=ani>count and force it would lay yoda>palp>mace>count>obi=/=ani, basically mace and yoda could duo this team, throwing obi in the fray only gives him someone to hold off ani while they rofl stomp the other 2, palp is the ONLY one here capable of beating anyone and thats on the sheer chance yoda is holding back. I can list feats if needed, not sure how many posts i have left today tho.

These aren't facts.

Vaapad is a dreadfully infirm form that skilled beings can easily exploit.

Dooku and Mace are about even, so adding Anakin in would murder Mace.

Yoda is above Mace Windu. Where are you getting all of this incorrect information from? Hopefully not SuperShadow or Wookieepedia...

Obi-Wan defeated Anakin because the latter was torn and made a mistake.

Dueling goes like this:

Palpatine>Yoda>Mace Windu>Anakin>=Obi-Wan.

Mace and Yoda duo nothing.

The only reason he managed to do anything against Palps was because he gained a large amplification.

Yoda never got angry, he lost because Palpatine was more powerful.

Force would lay as this:

Palpatine>Yoda>Windu=Anakin=Obi-Wan

Mace and Yoda rofl nobody.

Palpatine solos the fight in the EU, movie-wise it would go:

Palpatine defeats Yoda, helps Dooku murder Windu, then the two help Anakin murder Obi-Wan.

#38 Posted by The_Thunderer (2894 posts) - - Show Bio

Palpatine > Yoda = Dooku > Mace > Anakin = Obi Wan

IIRC

Movies made it seem to me like mace overpowered sidioud through being better irrespective of what the actual aim was to convey.

Dunno comics, but in books Palps is pretty powerful as is Yoda.

#39 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

What was the point of bumping this?

#40 Posted by The_Thunderer (2894 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: You talking to me?

#41 Posted by ShootingNova (17225 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

What was the point of bumping this?

No idea. Sorry.

#42 Posted by ShootingNova (17225 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Thunderer said:

Palpatine > Yoda = Dooku > Mace > Anakin = Obi Wan

IIRC

Movies made it seem to me like mace overpowered sidioud through being better irrespective of what the actual aim was to convey.

Dunno comics, but in books Palps is pretty powerful as is Yoda.

Palpatine is more powerful than Yoda.

Yoda > Dooku.

#43 Posted by The_Thunderer (2894 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova: i said that.. also i was talking duelling

#44 Edited by ShootingNova (17225 posts) - - Show Bio

And Yoda is superior to Dooku in duelling.

#45 Posted by G1d3on (96 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

Mace is a good duelist, one of the best. The single best? Not at all. Better than Dooku? No. Dooku has beaten Mace before. Dooku also beat Sora Bulq, whom Mace failed to beat. Dooku beat General Grievous repeatedly as well, whom Mace also failed to beat.

I realize this post was made 2 months ago and opinions may have been reconsidered, but I must respectfully take issue with some of this.

First, Labyrinth of Evil depicts Windu outmaneuvering Grievous, who later laments the defeat and concedes that he’d neglected Dooku’s earlier warning about “Windu’s prowess with a blade” and “now he understood.” These are not the musings of a victorious warrior—or even an equal one, in my opinion. Especially considering the ease with which Kenobi and Ventress, lesser duelists than Windu, handle Grievous in Star Wars: The Clone Wars, I think it is almost impossible to argue against the idea that Mace did and would beat Grievous in the majority of encounters.

Second, Windu’s duel with Dooku on Boz Pity is peculiar because—if I recall correctly—Dooku specifically instructed his minions to leave “the Jedi to [him]”, indicating that he would take it upon himself to engage any Force-wielding adversary. When Windu finds him, the Count apparently reconsiders and has MagnaGuards blindside him, which I take to mean that any victory the Count could muster would be extremely hard fought and time consuming.

Additionally, Dooku’s past defeat of Windu does not require that he remained Mace’s superior. We are not given the timeframe or context of the duel, though the text clearly indicates it was when both were Jedi. Given the thirty year age disparity between the two characters, it could have been at a time when Mace was a padawan and Dooku a Knight or Master. The quote you provided from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook does not intimate that Yoda or Dooku are conclusively better than Windu (though we know Yoda is, thanks to other sources), merely that only two Jedi have ever defeated him in any combat situations.

Third, I disagree with your assessment of their respective performance against Sora Bulq. While I suppose you could rightfully argue that Windu did not defeat him, the duel did end with Windu in a position of advantage. Similarly, from the scan you provided, it appears to me that Dooku did not disarm Bulq with a lightsaber strike, but batted his blade away and overcame him with Force lightning. This does not inherently prove Dooku’s superiority over Windu as a swordsman, but merely shows that the Count has access to a crippling ability that Mace does not share.

Just my two cents on the issue, I hope you don’t take issue, as I found your overall argument to be very strong.

#46 Posted by ShootingNova (17225 posts) - - Show Bio

@G1d3on said:

@Silver2467 said:

Mace is a good duelist, one of the best. The single best? Not at all. Better than Dooku? No. Dooku has beaten Mace before. Dooku also beat Sora Bulq, whom Mace failed to beat. Dooku beat General Grievous repeatedly as well, whom Mace also failed to beat.

I realize this post was made 2 months ago and opinions may have been reconsidered, but I must respectfully take issue with some of this.

First, Labyrinth of Evil depicts Windu outmaneuvering Grievous, who later laments the defeat and concedes that he’d neglected Dooku’s earlier warning about “Windu’s prowess with a blade” and “now he understood.” These are not the musings of a victorious warrior—or even an equal one, in my opinion. Especially considering the ease with which Kenobi and Ventress, lesser duelists than Windu, handle Grievous in Star Wars: The Clone Wars, I think it is almost impossible to argue against the idea that Mace did and would beat Grievous in the majority of encounters.

Second, Windu’s duel with Dooku on Boz Pity is peculiar because—if I recall correctly—Dooku specifically instructed his minions to leave “the Jedi to [him]”, indicating that he would take it upon himself to engage any Force-wielding adversary. When Windu finds him, the Count apparently reconsiders and has MagnaGuards blindside him, which I take to mean that any victory the Count could muster would be extremely hard fought and time consuming.

Additionally, Dooku’s past defeat of Windu does not require that he remained Mace’s superior. We are not given the timeframe or context of the duel, though the text clearly indicates it was when both were Jedi. Given the thirty year age disparity between the two characters, it could have been at a time when Mace was a padawan and Dooku a Knight or Master. The quote you provided from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook does not intimate that Yoda or Dooku are conclusively better than Windu (though we know Yoda is, thanks to other sources), merely that only two Jedi have ever defeated him in any combat situations.

Third, I disagree with your assessment of their respective performance against Sora Bulq. While I suppose you could rightfully argue that Windu did not defeat him, the duel did end with Windu in a position of advantage. Similarly, from the scan you provided, it appears to me that Dooku did not disarm Bulq with a lightsaber strike, but batted his blade away and overcame him with Force lightning. This does not inherently prove Dooku’s superiority over Windu as a swordsman, but merely shows that the Count has access to a crippling ability that Mace does not share.

Just my two cents on the issue, I hope you don’t take issue, as I found your overall argument to be very strong.

That's true. And Silver's argument is virtually always incredibly strong.

#47 Posted by G1d3on (96 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@G1d3on said:

@Silver2467 said:

Mace is a good duelist, one of the best. The single best? Not at all. Better than Dooku? No. Dooku has beaten Mace before. Dooku also beat Sora Bulq, whom Mace failed to beat. Dooku beat General Grievous repeatedly as well, whom Mace also failed to beat.

I realize this post was made 2 months ago and opinions may have been reconsidered, but I must respectfully take issue with some of this.

First, Labyrinth of Evil depicts Windu outmaneuvering Grievous, who later laments the defeat and concedes that he’d neglected Dooku’s earlier warning about “Windu’s prowess with a blade” and “now he understood.” These are not the musings of a victorious warrior—or even an equal one, in my opinion. Especially considering the ease with which Kenobi and Ventress, lesser duelists than Windu, handle Grievous in Star Wars: The Clone Wars, I think it is almost impossible to argue against the idea that Mace did and would beat Grievous in the majority of encounters.

Second, Windu’s duel with Dooku on Boz Pity is peculiar because—if I recall correctly—Dooku specifically instructed his minions to leave “the Jedi to [him]”, indicating that he would take it upon himself to engage any Force-wielding adversary. When Windu finds him, the Count apparently reconsiders and has MagnaGuards blindside him, which I take to mean that any victory the Count could muster would be extremely hard fought and time consuming.

Additionally, Dooku’s past defeat of Windu does not require that he remained Mace’s superior. We are not given the timeframe or context of the duel, though the text clearly indicates it was when both were Jedi. Given the thirty year age disparity between the two characters, it could have been at a time when Mace was a padawan and Dooku a Knight or Master. The quote you provided from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook does not intimate that Yoda or Dooku are conclusively better than Windu (though we know Yoda is, thanks to other sources), merely that only two Jedi have ever defeated him in any combat situations.

Third, I disagree with your assessment of their respective performance against Sora Bulq. While I suppose you could rightfully argue that Windu did not defeat him, the duel did end with Windu in a position of advantage. Similarly, from the scan you provided, it appears to me that Dooku did not disarm Bulq with a lightsaber strike, but batted his blade away and overcame him with Force lightning. This does not inherently prove Dooku’s superiority over Windu as a swordsman, but merely shows that the Count has access to a crippling ability that Mace does not share.

Just my two cents on the issue, I hope you don’t take issue, as I found your overall argument to be very strong.

That's true. And Silver's argument is virtually always incredibly strong.

So I'm learning. lol

#48 Posted by GhostRider29 (2673 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011

I came with the same opinion but with out all of that research. Lol It literally looks like Sidious held back against Mace in the movie. I believe in reality Mace had no chance. But whenever I say it, people just say I'm a Sidious fan boy. Which in fact, I hate Sidious.

#49 Posted by ShootingNova (17225 posts) - - Show Bio

@G1d3on: LOL

@GhostRider29 said:

@dccomicsrule2011

I came with the same opinion but with out all of that research. Lol It literally looks like Sidious held back against Mace in the movie. I believe in reality Mace had no chance. But whenever I say it, people just say I'm a Sidious fan boy. Which in fact, I hate Sidious.

In the duel, Mace had a severe amplification due to Vaapad which allowed him to defeat Sidious in a duel, but Sidious was owning him with his lightning, which was literally bending his lightsaber out of his hands, and it was beyond anything he had ever faced before, beyond Vaapad.

#50 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@G1d3on said: 

I realize this post was made 2 months ago and opinions may have been reconsidered, but I must respectfully take issue with some of this.

Fair enough. 
 

First, Labyrinth of Evil depicts Windu outmaneuvering Grievous, who later laments the defeat and concedes that he’d neglected Dooku’s earlier warning about “Windu’s prowess with a blade” and “now he understood.” These are not the musings of a victorious warrior—or even an equal one, in my opinion.

Yes, Mace outmaneuvered Grievous, but you have to note how and why. Mace and Grievous were dueling one another on top of the mag-lev train as it traveled through Coruscant's airways. Mace called on the Force to root him in place as a measure of circumventing the wind resistance and avoiding falling off the train. Grievous' magnetic clamps offered a parallel effect, but for him, the adherence restricted his mobility. Mace was capable of moving freely without hindrance of motion, but Grievous was locked in place with far less dexterity and switfness than he usually enjoys. This factor, combined with Grievous' neural networking systems, is why Mace managed to lock his foot hold. Even then, after one of Grievous' feet had fallen into the crevice that Mace's lightsaber created on the mag-lev's surface, Mace still never overwhelmed him with a lightsaber. Rather, he BFR'd Grievous by a Force attack. I would hardly call this advantageous for Mace as a duelist. I would call him the victor in the sense that he ended the duel but not by virtue of being more skilled, and lightsaber proficiency is all we were discussing. Grievous lost, but his duel with Mace was very equal in respects to how they matched one another skillfully.

Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long.

--Taken from Labyrinth of Evil 

Especially considering the ease with which Kenobi and Ventress, lesser duelists than Windu, handle Grievous in Star Wars: The Clone Wars, I think it is almost impossible to argue against the idea that Mace did and would beat Grievous in the majority of encounters.

I never said Mace couldn't beat Grievous in a contest of pure skill. Had Windu and Grievous' duel concluded purely as a duel, I feel confident the victory would have been Mace's. My point is that despite the fact that Mace and Grievous did engage in a fairly protracted duel, Mace still never outmatched the General as a combatant; he outmatched him by exploiting the environment and Grievous' decreased fluidity of motion. If it continued, sure, Mace would've won. If anything though, the showing is very impressive for Grievous, because he fought well against Mace while he was unable to move as agilely as usual and because Grievous only employed two blades against Mace as opposed to four. Regarding Grievous' performance in TCW, I think you already know my opinion on that. 

I take to mean that any victory the Count could muster would be extremely hard fought and time consuming.

No argument there. Whoever wins between Dooku and Mace, the duel is sure to last a fairly long period of time. All I was arguing is that Mace never definitively beat Dooku on Boz Pity, regardless of what people say happened there.
 

Additionally, Dooku’s past defeat of Windu does not require that he remained Mace’s superior. We are not given the timeframe or context of the duel, though the text clearly indicates it was when both were Jedi. Given the thirty year age disparity between the two characters, it could have been at a time when Mace was a padawan and Dooku a Knight or Master. The quote you provided from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook does not intimate that Yoda or Dooku are conclusively better than Windu (though we know Yoda is, thanks to other sources), merely that only two Jedi have ever defeated him in any combat situations.

Actually, we can decipher a few details on that. For one thing, Mace was a council member before the age of thirty. From this, we know for a fact that he was a Jedi Master by that age. Secondly, Dooku left the Order just after the Battle of Naboo. Mace was forty or a bit older by then, which means he had been a council member more than a decade and a master more than that. Thirdly, Depa Billaba was a council member by the Battle of Naboo as well, meaning she had been trained by Mace and promoted passed his apprenticeship years before then, as Mace stated she did in his journal in Shatterpoint. Fourthly, Depa displayed skill in Vaapad during the Emissaries to Malastare arc in Republic, as Mace recorded in his journal. If she knew Vaapad already and was already a master and council member, then Mace had to have developed Vaapad with Sora years before he himself became a council member so that he could have taken on Depa as his Padawan and trained her in Vaapad. Fifthly, when Dooku dueled Sora and Tholme, he was able to identify the intricacies of Vaapad in Sora's techniques, which demonstrates Dooku's affiliation with the style; the only way he could be affiliated with it is to have dueled Mace, who had to have had it fully developed as a Jedi Master. That being the case, Mace had more than a decade of mastery with Vaapad (his time on the council before TPM) within which he could have dueled Dooku. Considering the fact that Mace entered sparring matches with Saesee Tiin in the Infinity's End arc of Republic and a sparring match with Quinlan Vos in the Jedi: Mace Windu issue, as well as the fact that the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook stated that Mace fought many master swordsman, he certainly is not hesitant to join sparring matches. So from all of this alone, I find it very unlikely that Mace and Dooku, who were friends in the Order, never dueled one another as masters. This is my first point. 
 
My second point is this: Both sources that identify that Mace and Dooku were of near equal skill level specifically included their title before their names, "master." In the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook and in Insider #109, it notes Mace as "Master Windu," not simply Jedi Knight Windu, implying that the two had dueled before as Jedi Masters. Now, in Insider #109, it was stated "it is considered..." that Dooku is equal to Mace. "It is considered..." may not be irrefutable fact; however, if it is considered that Master Mace and Master Dooku were peers as swordsman, that at least further implicates that they dueled one another as Jedi Masters. 
 "Masters Yoda and Mace Windu..."

Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

--Taken from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook 
 
Also, this is completely opinion-based, but I would like to address Yoda's assessment of Dooku's talents as a swordmaster. You can choose to disregard this at your own discretion, because Yoda's opinion is merely his opinion, not fact, but Yoda has fought both Mace and Dooku, which does lend credibility to his opinion in this instance. Yoda stated that on fair ground, only Mace might be a match for Dooku (and that on Vjun, Dooku is more deadly). Considering Mace and Dooku's history with one another; their reputation as swordsmen; and Yoda's relationship with them, I find this a valid opinion.

The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light.

--Taken from Yoda: Dark Rendezvous 

All this compiled, I think we can very reasonably say that Mace and Dooku, as reputed Jedi Masters, had dueled one another before. 
 

While I suppose you could rightfully argue that Windu did not defeat him, the duel did end with Windu in a position of advantage.

The advantage came from a Force attack, not skill, and that was my point. Beyond that, all Mace did was knock Sora over with the Force. Sora successfully sent a Force Push against Mace, but whatever edge that may have provided, if any, was short-lived. Whether Sora remained in an unfavorable position is indeterminable because Mace left, as did the focus of the comic's art. We never saw how Sora may have recuperated from that afterward. 
 

Similarly, from the scan you provided, it appears to me that Dooku did not disarm Bulq with a lightsaber strike, but batted his blade away and overcame him with Force lightning.

But Dooku batted away Sora's blade with his own. So I fail to see how that shows no lightsaber superiority. Additionally, the fact that Dooku handled Sora with far greater ease than Mace, who gained no lead over Sora solely by his adeptness as a fighter, is telling, especially since Dooku was simultaneously dealing with Tholme. What Dooku actually showed is that he supersedes Sora both as a swordsman and as a Force practitioner: First he disarms Sora with his own lightsaber; then, when Sora is vulnerable, Dooku incapacitates him with Lightning. 
 

This does not inherently prove Dooku’s superiority over Windu as a swordsman, but merely shows that the Count has access to a crippling ability that Mace does not share.

Actually, I never intended to insinuate that Dooku is a better swordsman than Mace but an equally skilled one. I was debating against someone who claimed that Mace is obviously vastly superior to Dooku as a duelist, which I refuted by pointing out Dooku's performance against characters Mace has fought and Dooku's performance against Mace himself. I can see how this can be interpreted as my saying that Dooku is superior though, and in hindsight, I should've worded my point more clearly. But, no, I agree. I see no disparity between Dooku and Mace as duelists. To me, they seem even in raw skill.