Palpetine vs Exar Kun and Darth Krayt

Sidious.

AND LOL at ''Darth Krayt being in top 5 most powerful siths ever'' posts.

Team

The Notion that someone like Tenebrous is inherently better than Bane is A B C logic at it's worst. We have no Idea how each apprentice beat his or her master, and each fight would be guarantee to be a extremely close one. Zannah beat Bane by the skin of her teeth and by a dark side force nexus giving her the ability to use literal manifestations of the dark side of the force. So the idea that the farther down the line the Sith go they would inherently beat every preceding master is absurd. Also, note the blow gravid dealt the Sith. his apprentice would have been more than likely pre prime when she was forced to face her master, and so she probably would not have reached her full potential without full training. so even if you are correct in your theory, which i do not agree with for the reasons given above, because of this event, it is very possible that it would have decrease the point at which the apprentice would overcome the master, at least in the short term.

My apologize if that didn't make any sense, and someone correct me if I would appreciate.

@themuser: The entire point of the Rule of Two is that the apprentice surpasses the master and becomes more powerful than all before him. It's canonically what Bane wanted. And considering that there was a source implying Cognus surpassed Bane and Zannah, and that all after her grow student even more powerful would lend itself to suggesting Tenebrous is above Bane. As for ABC logic, it's actually soundly applied in regards to Force powers. Power is a consistent thing, it doesn't have variations that are better or worse in certain instances like dueling. Telekinesis to Bane is telekinesis to Tenebrous, no other way around it. If Tenebrous is more powerful than his master, who's more powerful than his master, who's more powerful than his master and so on and so forth, then you get to Cognus who's more powerful than her master who's more powerful, or equally powerful to her master. That's just it. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Then you consider how many Sith are in the line of the Rule of Two.

Bane=Zannah<Cognus<her apprentice<his apprentice<his apprentice<his apprentice<his apprentice<Vectivus<Gravid<Gean<her apprentice<his apprentice<his apprentice<Tenebrous<Plagueis<Sidious. A quote regarding this has even been made:

Bane's power has been passed down for a thousand years. I vow to be its last recipient.

Source: Book of the Sith

It's been passed down, and each apprentice grew more powerful. The best one can argue is Gravid held them back. But Plagueis and Sidious are mute testimony that a large gap still formed - as Sidious is by statements and feats far and away Bane's superior. And so should be Tenebrous, and so should be Plagueis.

@themuser: Yep, the truth that Sidious killed Plagueis in his sleep, not in a one-on-one duel, and he never achieves the knowledge of using the midichlorian manipulation to save others that proof for the entire banite sith orders relationship about sith master & the sith apprentice, obviously Sidious wasn't an upgraded version of Plagueis, they were a different kind of Sith Lords in terms of power set and as a character. The most important thing about the banite sith order is following the only and one undisputed code which is ''Always two there are'' and nothing more. Some Sith can focus on the physical limitations (Darth Maul for example) while the other can focus on the different type of powers such as sorcery (Darth Zannah for example).

.....I actually agree with this, tbh. We have no idea how the correlation between Appretince and Master worked for most cases, and in the ones we did see - the learners were arguably not even more powerful than the Master. Not to mention Gravid set the Banite Line back severely with his meltdown, so the powerscaling is even more faulty given that fact.

@cis: Go on.

@dccomicsrule2011:

Then Bane is going to be loosely comparable to people like Plagueis or Sidious...

I'm actually OK with that.

That's not even what I meant, LAWL.

I'm of the opinion, that Plagueis and Palpatine are significant outliers to the Banite Lineage. E.I, They are far and away above the rest, with Tenne being the closes, but still far behind. Case in point - The Banite A>B>C logic, is garbage, and Tenebrous being top 5 is inaccurate, and AIDS tier logic. :)

@dccomicsrule2011: That opinion has no basis. You can't just say all of these guys suck, but these two are their exeptions. And I'm pretty sure Venamis rivalling Plagueis is enough to suggest Tenebrous can, as well.

1) It's not really baseless. Lore hype and feats backup my statement. All you have is garbage A>B>C logic that doesn't add up for reasons already stated.

2) Never said they suck. But if that's what you want to use, cool.

3) Nonsense. Venamis did nothing as a Force user to suggest he rivaled Plagueis, LALKEK.

@dccomicsrule2011:

1) It's not really baseless. Lore hype and feats backup my statement.

That's because every Rule of Two Sith bar Sidious, Plagueis, Zannah and Bane hasn't been explored in the slightest. Tenebrous has like 2-3 showings, and the rest are either unknown completely and have some hints about them. I really wish someone would write a novel about them.

All you have is garbage A>B>C logic that doesn't add up for reasons already stated.

Whole point of Rule of Two is apprentice>master, so they can make the ultimate Sith, i.e. Sidious. So it's not garbage, since that's how the order works.

3) Nonsense. Venamis did nothing as a Force user to suggest he rivaled Plagueis, LALKEK.

Fact is Plagueis, a commited Force user, couldn't outright ragdoll him. Meaning he should be loosely comparable. And he already challenged Plagueis as a swordsman so there's that.

Venamis, a sith apprentice trained most of his life by Plagueis' own master of over a century, primed for the sole purpose of killing Hego, mastering not only his forms but every detail on how Plagueis fights and applies his power, was still defeated. On top of that, the Plagueis fighting him was a long way from his prime. I don't think he's "up there".

Alright, I found something interesting regarding Bane that may up his power, a bit:

He was the most powerful Dark Lord in centuries. And this is PoD Bane, we're talking about.

@gunsout: right again

@wollfmyth209 said:

Alright, I found something interesting regarding Bane that may up his power, a bit:

He was the most powerful Dark Lord in centuries. And this is PoD Bane, we're talking about.

That's interesting. Where did you find it?

@freesid_stf123: Star Wars Fact File 83.

@wollfmyth209: ah

Yeah, I'm done, LAL.

Keep drowning in your own disillusion, because I want no part of it anymore.

I don't have dillusions. Now if you'll excuse me, I will ride off on my magical dolphine pet; his name's Bane. Onward Bane!

RotS Palpatine is not overrated. You're probably referring to EU Sidious during the Dark Empire series which, by the way, was as fast, strong, and powerful as reputable Viners say he was.

Anyway, I think RotS Sidious could take this, but it would be quite difficult.

@freesid_stf123: It ups his power in comparison to the Sith that he directly proceeded him, and lets face it those names include names like Darth Desolus, Darth Rivan, and other total unknowns. The fact Bane is the most powerful Sith lord in a chain of featless characters isn't surprising.

@wollfmyth209:

Don't know what someone could find so infatuating about such a sucky characters, but whatevs.

@burnface: makes sense

@burnface: You're forgetting that Rivan was confirmed as capably unleashing Force Storms in Echoes of the Jedi.

^^

With the Darkstaff; an Sith artifact of immense power, and he lost control of them anyway LAWL.

@dccomicsrule2011: Still counts.

P.S. Rivan even says it doesn't make him more powerful:

I could not wield it. I would not. It would not make me more powerful; it would destroy me. And so, I want it gone, erased from the galaxy.

Source: The Darkstaff

@wollfmyth209 said:

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

Keep drowning in your own disillusion, because I want no part of it anymore.

I don't have dillusions. Now if you'll excuse me, I will ride off on my magical dolphine pet; his name's Bane. Onward Bane!

Who needs Acid?

@wollfmyth209said:

P.S. Rivan even says it doesn't make him more powerful:

So? Without the Darkstaff, he was completely incapable of making Force Storms so his thoughts are moot. It enhanced something for him to be capable of creating them with, but not without.

Tough

I'd say it completely depends on how well Kraut and Kun fight together, because they're from completely different era's. If they hinder each other rather than aid, then Palpatine takes it.

Gravid set the Order back in knowledge, but not power. Gean still killed him in a fair duel, just at the cost of some body parts which were replaced with cybernetics, IIRC.

Would be a brilliant accolade if any of the Dark Lords in the centuries leading up to Bane were notable, but sadly, they weren't.

My thoughts exactly. Their teamwork is non existent, they don't even know what style the other is using. We have seen competent duelists (Dooku and Kenobi) exploiting not perfect teamworks (Anakin&Kenobi and Savage&Maul) by putting them in each other way. For Sidious, who is above both Dooku and Kenobi and the team's teamwork being leagues below Anakin&Kenobi and Savage&Maul, it will be a childs play.

Krayt and Kun Force spamming requires little synergy.

@i_like_swords: Even less effort from Sidious to evade. And then he retaliates with his lightning that can bend lightsabers, or slap it right out of their hands, and knock them unconscious.

@cs_zoltan: Nice fanfic

If you can't even make a serious reply then I take that as a concession.

What a great "debating" forum, if someone makes a longer reply than the name of one of the character in the OP he gets mocked. Now go on, I'm sure there's a thread somewhere that requires a one word reply...

@shootingnova: Actually, Odion was a Sith who lived less than 100 years prior to 1000 BBY. And he was capable of feeding off people's deaths, causing massive rage and frenzy in groups of people, survived being almost completely burned alive and kept himself living through rage, and one-shotted Kerra Holt with lightning, tho she did manage to survive. There's some other impressive feats he has, but I'll need to re-read Knight Errant. And PoD Bane is more powerful than him.

@cs_zoltan: You made claims such as Sidious just "evading" direct sorcery/telekinesis/lightning or disarming both Kun and Krayt with one lightning blast with no supporting basis or evidence. Until you provide as much I couldn't care to reply to your fan fic of what you think could happen.

U trolling bro, tbh. Palpatine Force Storms them both, tbh.

Palpatine

@i_like_swords:Yeah, because you provided soooo much proof for your argument:

Please hold back on the word count, I can only read so much...

@cs_zoltan: Yeah, difference is I didn't claim my opinion was an argument that required addressing. Like I said, put some meat on your bones and I'll humour you. Maybe. I'm busy.

@dccomicsrule2011: Your mother has deformed eyebrows.

If you don't want to initiate the argument that's fair, but I have 0 intrest to debate with someone who insults straight out of the gate.

Learn some manners first.

@cs_zoltan: Saying your argument lacks substance isn't an insult. Sorry if you felt offended. We can debate this in something like 6 hours and the following day if ya want.

There are better ways to say that than "Nice fanfic".

Apology accepted though, if you meant it as one.

@i_like_swords: Well here's my argument:

First of all "force spamming" still requires some level of teamwork. For example: Sidious stands between Kun and Krayt, Kun releases a Force Blast, Sidious dodges it at the last second, Force Blast hits Krayt. Or if they don't attack simultaneously Sidious can resist them individually.
But more importantly neither Kun or Krayt is really the kind of guy who engages in a Force duel. Kun engaged Vodo and Ulic with his saber, and Krayt engaged Celeste, Wyyrlok, Cade, Obi-Wan, and the Imperial guards with his saber. Obviously they don't shy away from using their power in a duel, but that's not how they approach a fight most (if not all) of the time.
As for Sidious, his lightning could bend lightsabers, as you can see that in his duel with Mace Windu, or sap the saber out of Yoda's hand, and even knock him unconscious. Yoda being more powerful and more skilled than either Kun or Krayt suggest that Sidious could do the same to them (one at a time).

I already covered the teamwork part, but in short Kun and Krayt don't know each other. At all. They don't even know what style the other is using etc. Inferior duelist to Sidious could exploit superior teamwork to Kun and Krayt, so I don't see how it wouldn't happen here. All he needs to do is put them in each other ways, and eventually finding an opening and BFR one of them with lightning. A few minutes of 1on1 is a sure win for Sidious. And that is why I think Sidious takes the majority. If just once he can connect a lightning it's practically over.

I'd say 6/10 for Sidious, because of Dark Transfer can net a few wins to the team. If the team would be a master/apprentice duo with the same skill and power then it would be 10/10 for the team.

Saying that Sidious can win easily is pretty ridiculous. He's probably not beating two Vader-level characters in the first place, anyway.