Ozai vs Iroh vs Jeong Jeong (Read OP)

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Arcus1

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Who is the ultimate ATLA Firebender?

Fight takes place during Sozin's Comet where Zuko and Azula had their Agni Kai

No lightning

Morals off, victory by KO or death

They start in a triangle 25 feet from each other

Who comes in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd?

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rogueshadow

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#2  Edited By rogueshadow  Moderator

Ozai>>>>>Iroh>>>>>>Jeong Jong

Iroh's BSS busting was incredibly impressive, but Ozai was more impressive in my opinion in his fight against Aang and that immense flame projection he created.

Jeong Jong was powerful, his flight and flame walls etc but I think either of the brothers could beat him with considerable effort.

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pooty

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I didn't see Ozai do anything feat wise that iroh couldn't counter. but orig showed fighting skills that the others didn't. Iroh FTW

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Arcus1

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#4  Edited By Arcus1

@rogueshadow: Remember that both Iroh and Jeong Jeong preferred nonviolence and sometimes held back, especially Jeong Jeong. Do you think the lack of morals here will make a difference?

@pooty: What about Ozai's flight and speed?

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#5 rogueshadow  Moderator

@arcus said:

@rogueshadow: Remember that both Iroh and Jeong Jeong preferred nonviolence and sometimes held back, especially Jeong Jeong. Do you think the lack of morals here will make a difference?

Didn't notice the morals, I did read the op but it escaped my attention somehow; I think it would be a toss up between Iroh and Ozai. Ozai's youth might give him an edge. Jeong Jong still goes down though in my opinion.

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Arcus1

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@rogueshadow: How do you think they'd get past his fire shields?

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#7  Edited By rogueshadow  Moderator
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pooty

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@arcus: I don't see flight helping. Iroh can still attack him even when Ozai is flying. and I don't recall him bending while flying. What speed are you referring to? And the only reason Ozai has a chance is because Iroh can't use lightning IMO

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juiceboks

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#9 juiceboks  Moderator

Ozai and Jeong Jeong are the only firebenders that can fly..that immediately puts Iroh at a disadvantage.

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Arcus1

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#10  Edited By Arcus1

@pooty: He was bending and flying while fighting Aang, and he was fast enough to keep up with Aang and then evade the Avatar State for a time

@rogueshadow: Remember no lightning

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rogueshadow

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#11  Edited By rogueshadow  Moderator

@arcus said:

@pooty: He was bending and flying while fighting Aang, and he was fast enough to keep up with Aang and then evade the Avatar State for a time

@rogueshadow: Remember no lightning

I know, just saying, because in actuality he could do that.

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Arcus1

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@rogueshadow: Yeah, I didn't allow lightning because, while Jeong Jeong should be able to use it, we've never seen him use it

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Lunacyde

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#13 Lunacyde  Moderator

@arcus said:

@rogueshadow: How do you think they'd get past his fire shields?

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OP specifies no lightning.

The Fire Comet from Iroh required significant focus and charging.

I see no reason to believe Jeong Jeong couldn't block the last one. He far and away created the most fire of any firebender in the series (not counting during Sozin's Comet)

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#14 rogueshadow  Moderator
@arcus said:

@rogueshadow: Yeah, I didn't allow lightning because, while Jeong Jeong should be able to use it, we've never seen him use it

Fair enough.

@pooty said:

@arcus: I don't see flight helping. Iroh can still attack him even when Ozai is flying. and I don't recall him bending while flying. What speed are you referring to? And the only reason Ozai has a chance is because Iroh can't use lightning IMO

Iroh can generate lightning.

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#16 rogueshadow  Moderator

@lunacyde said:

@rogueshadow said:

@arcus said:

@rogueshadow: How do you think they'd get past his fire shields?

OP specifies no lightning.

The Fire Comet from Iroh required significant focus and charging.

I see no reason to believe Jeong Jeong couldn't block the last one. He far and away created the most fire of any firebender in the series (not counting during Sozin's Comet)

I know about the lightning, I've already addressed it. I'm not saying he couldn't block it, but the OP asked how they get past his fire shields/walls. I showed their respective power outputs, that's how they would. Jeong Jong has a lot of raw power, no question, but not many combat feats other than stagnant tanks as i remember, whereas Iroh at least beat Azula, some Dai Li and Ozai was fighting Aang.

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pooty

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@rogueshadow: I know but I don't think he showed he can redirect it. if they both use lightning, I think Ozai is at a disadvantage.

@arcus: As long as Irohs fire can move through the air, I don't see flying being a difference maker. His flying speed doesn't make a difference either. Also, Ozai, IMO only looked good because Aang was holding back. If Aang was morals off the fight would have lasted 4 minutes if that. IMO bending is about even. I think Iroh is the better,smarter fighter

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rogueshadow

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#18 rogueshadow  Moderator

@pooty said:

@rogueshadow: I know but I don't think he showed he can redirect it. if they both use lightning, I think Ozai is at a disadvantage.

@arcus: As long as Irohs fire can move through the air, I don't see flying being a difference maker. His flying speed doesn't make a difference either. Also, Ozai, IMO only looked good because Aang was holding back. If Aang was morals off the fight would have lasted 4 minutes if that. IMO bending is about even. I think Iroh is the better,smarter fighter

He definitely can, he redirected natural lightning as well as Azula's and he taught Zuko how to do it.

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Arcus1

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@pooty: Flying could help with evasion and finding better positions to attack

Morals only make so much of a difference, maybe Aang could have ended it via lightning redirection, but most of the time he was too busy trying to stay alive to attack

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pooty

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@pooty said:

@rogueshadow: I know but I don't think he showed he can redirect it. if they both use lightning, I think Ozai is at a disadvantage.

@arcus: As long as Irohs fire can move through the air, I don't see flying being a difference maker. His flying speed doesn't make a difference either. Also, Ozai, IMO only looked good because Aang was holding back. If Aang was morals off the fight would have lasted 4 minutes if that. IMO bending is about even. I think Iroh is the better,smarter fighter

He definitely can, he redirected natural lightning as well as Azula's and he taught Zuko how to do it.

I was talking about Ozai can't redirect lightning. that is why he's at a disadvantage.

@arcus said:

@pooty: Flying could help with evasion and finding better positions to attack

Morals only make so much of a difference, maybe Aang could have ended it via lightning redirection, but most of the time he was too busy trying to stay alive to attack

Flying can help but not to any noticeable degree against people of this caliber. And he only flew to chase Aang. I doubt flying is part of his normal combat scheme. Morals makes a HUGE difference when talking about Aang. Look at the fight. When Aang was ready to fight...... not evade or defend but fight........ Ozai was manhandled.

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Arcus1

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#21  Edited By Arcus1

@pooty: Aang's chakra got unlocked when he hit the rock, allowing him to go into the Avatar State. It's not like he just decided to start fighting

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#22 rogueshadow  Moderator

@pooty: Ah, earlier on you said Iroh can't use lightning and then followed that up saying that he can't redirect it.

@arcus said:

@pooty: Aang's chakra got unlocked when he hit the rock, allowing him to go into the Avatar State. It's not like he just decided to start fighting

This is true, but Aang could still have taken him out with lightning earlier on by redirecting it, it was only his morals that stopped him, Iroh could do the same thing and Ozai has no counter.

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Arcus1

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@rogueshadow: Yeah, Ozai might have been able to dodge the lightning though

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#24 rogueshadow  Moderator

@arcus said:

@rogueshadow: Yeah, Ozai might have been able to dodge the lightning though

He had a pretty wtf expression on his face, I really think he would've been done if Aang had blasted it back. He was kind of dumb really, he'd already seen Zuko do it, Zuko told him he was going to train the Avatar...you'd think he'd have been a bit less startled.

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pooty

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@arcus said:

@pooty: Aang's chakra got unlocked when he hit the rock, allowing him to go into the Avatar State. It's not like he just decided to start fighting

It's also when he stopped holding back. Aang was doing everything he could not to kill Ozai up till that point

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Arcus1

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@pooty: Maybe, but it was also the first time (except for the lightning redirection) he was actually able to attack. Remember Avatar State gives a huge power and skill boost.

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#28 Lunacyde  Moderator

@arcus said:

@lunacyde: Who do you think wins?

I think that all 3 have the capability to win on any given day. I think Iroh is the most balanced and versatile of the 3 and I call him even with Ozai with the stipulation that this is him at his peak condition. I think it's the intangible things like patience, wisdom, tactical mind and inner peace that will give him the ability to keep up with Ozai.

However we cannot disregard the strong indications writers gave that Ozai was more powerful and Iroh likely couldn't have beaten him 1 v. 1. This is why I can't honestly give Iroh the win outright.

Jeong Jeong is a defensive powerhouse, but I just don't see enough offensive feats to give him a majority of wins here. He just doesn't have enough showing to support him taking down two firebenders of this caliber given his lack of offense. Maybe if he wore them down he could take a few.

Jeong Jeong 2/10

Iroh 4/10

Ozai 4/10

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Arcus1

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#29  Edited By Arcus1

@lunacyde:

Nice analysis

You know how Jeong Jeong's walls were pushing tanks in Ba Sing Se? How exactly did he do that? Fire shouldn't push tanks, but his did

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Ozai in a close one. I'd give him a tiny edge over Iroh, and a more noticeable one over Jeong Jeong. Jeong Jeong was good, but he lacked the offensive capability the other two showed. The best defense does make a good offense, but it isn't going to be enough to take a majority over two superior benders.

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#31 Lunacyde  Moderator

@arcus said:

@lunacyde:

Nice analysis

You know how Jeong Jeong's walls were pushing tanks in Ba Sing Se? How exactly did he do that? Fire shouldn't push tanks, but his did

I think he can control the density of his flames allowing them to make constructs and make solid walls of flame. This is just my theory supported by my knowledge of the show/character.

Thanks.

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Arcus1

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@lunacyde: That shouldn't make sense, but it's pretty much what I think too. That or the walls are somehow giving off continuous explosive force, not that that should be possible either

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@lunacyde said:

@arcus said:

@lunacyde: Who do you think wins?

I think that all 3 have the capability to win on any given day. I think Iroh is the most balanced and versatile of the 3 and I call him even with Ozai with the stipulation that this is him at his peak condition. I think it's the intangible things like patience, wisdom, tactical mind and inner peace that will give him the ability to keep up with Ozai.

However we cannot disregard the strong indications writers gave that Ozai was more powerful and Iroh likely couldn't have beaten him 1 v. 1. This is why I can't honestly give Iroh the win outright.

Jeong Jeong is a defensive powerhouse, but I just don't see enough offensive feats to give him a majority of wins here. He just doesn't have enough showing to support him taking down two firebenders of this caliber given his lack of offense. Maybe if he wore them down he could take a few.

Jeong Jeong 2/10

Iroh 4/10

Ozai 4/10

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#34 Lunacyde  Moderator

@arcus said:

@lunacyde: That shouldn't make sense, but it's pretty much what I think too. That or the walls are somehow giving off continuous explosive force, not that that should be possible either

A lot of things in the world of Avatar don't make too much sense if you really think about them :P

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THUNDERBOLT30

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#36  Edited By THUNDERBOLT30

Good points for all. I think Ozai would take a slight majority.

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Arcus1

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comicvinepoozer1

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What's with the Avatar threads?

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Arcus1

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THUNDERBOLT30

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@arcus: I think he has more impressive feats the JJ (about equal with Iroh with lightning being excluded) and has a big advantage with flight over Iroh. JJ could also fly but he just doesn't have the showings to prove he could take a majority over Iroh or Ozai.

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Arcus1

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@thunderbolt30: Makes sense. Do you think the lack of morals makes a difference?

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@arcus: never said there is a problem with the quality just the quantity

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MetalJimmor

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Jeong Jeong's firewall in Book 1 was comparable to the fire created by ozai and Iroh under the comet. That is an incredible degree of raw power and control. Meanwhile under the comet he was making massive walls of fire that dwarfed buildings that somehow had the physical presence to shove iron tanks around like toys. On top of that he had perfect control of his flight and was able to easily hover while he used his bending.

Jeong Jeong's biggest weakness isn't even a character thing. He just never got any good fight scenes so we have no idea what he's like when going all out. Based entirely off his couple showings he is definitely comparable to Ozai and Iroh.

I'll give Ozai the majority though, with Jeong Jeong and Iroh performing about the same.

Ozai 6/10, Iroh 2/10, Jeong Jeong 2/10

Ozai has the best combat feats of the three by a good margin and was suppose to be the most powerul firebender in the world at the time.

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THUNDERBOLT30

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@arcus said:

@thunderbolt30: Makes sense. Do you think the lack of morals makes a difference?

Not with Ozai and Jeong Jeong so much but I do think the lack of morals could make a difference in Iroh's case if lightning was in play. I think he is pretty close to the power and skill of Ozai.

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#46 Lunacyde  Moderator

@thunderbolt30:

Why not Jeong Jeong? He was just as opposed to unnecessary violance as Iroh was.

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@lunacyde said:

@thunderbolt30:

Why not Jeong Jeong? He was just as opposed to unnecessary violance as Iroh was.

He just lacks the feats to prove how deadly he could be without morals.

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#48 Lunacyde  Moderator

@lunacyde said:

@thunderbolt30:

Why not Jeong Jeong? He was just as opposed to unnecessary violance as Iroh was.

He just lacks the feats to prove how deadly he could be without morals.

The fact he created the single greatest amount of fire in the series without the aid of the comet is enough by itself IMO.

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#49  Edited By THUNDERBOLT30

@lunacyde: How does that help him against Iroh and Ozai though?

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Iroh.